@^: Well at least I got your reasons, thanks.

@those: Also you do it again. No response to lepidopodus post at all because there are probably points you can't deny, else you would allready contar to this.

And lepidopodus said right now what I told you before too: Find solid reasons at least please. Else there will be no changes yet, especially because - as allready said before (twice and more) - in generel community is agains this and because Taiko people have a higher value here.

To be honest that's too much right now. If there is coming any other post that can be markt as spam because of sensless speach, it will be deleted. We really don't need to make a circle of infinity. Thank you.

@[Luanny PhNyx]: I did understand you too. Thanks.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors

Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.

those wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.

Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.

Onosakihito, relax? Well I already starting to getting aggressive and it is enough to have one aggressive Taiko guy in here.

Kinda hard to discuss about does really people get irritated when hitsound changes, it is kinda matter of personal experience or characteristics or something. We might talk about how players play Taiko here, but it can be different with actual practicing. That is why we need consensus first, and we end up put more value to some guys who knows Taiko well.

But I guess general opinion is against about that, and even experts are not support that.

Okay, I only skimmed through the subject so excuse me if I may be off-topic. But from what I'm seeing, this is a discussion on forcing custom taiko hit-sounds in beatmap set?
I would like to quote some things here;

MMzz wrote:

Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.

This is very true, as I use custom hitsounds sometimes for taiko, (When I'm playing metal songs and stuff, but never when I'm playing authentic or for ranking) . But like he said, forcing it in a mapset would just be cruel.
If they are going to add this rule, at least allow a toggle in the skins options "use beatmap's taiko hitsounds" or something.

Loctav wrote:

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT

I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)

I know we'll just get shot down because of the famous quote, "This is osu!, not taiko", but still try to hear us out.
That's all I got to say, I gave up on this thread quite some time ago. orz

peppy wrote:

Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.

Looks like a good idea to me. p/1278182

@^: Hey I guess you are already said that's not the point? I already told that it isn't matter of authentic or not several times. Do not cover other issues to that thing.

You blacklisted me or what.

EDIT:

those wrote:

Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.

I already stated how hitsound can be effect gameplay, and I already state just stating that high/low can be too subjective. You are just ignoring me.

Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:

lepidopodus wrote:

I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys.

Sander-Don wrote:

I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)

I agree. But ppy has said that he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name. He didn't choose it because he wanted it to be identical to "taiko no tatsujin".

Sakura wrote:

Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:

This is matter of allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not keeping it authentic or not. Did I said something like 'keep this cause this is authentic?' or something? And players are already use player-specific hitsound which is already far different from authentic TnT.

I've already stated this several times but you guys simply ignoring me. Who's trolling, seriously. Did you read my posts or not, honestly?

You guys are covering our other reasonings for that. It's really bad. Both of you.

If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.

those wrote:

he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name.

After all, the Taiko mode is similar to Taiko no Tatsujin and is a Taiko no Tatsujin simulator
My brother was saying the same thing when I was starting to map in Stepmania, lol

About custom hitsounds, I'm pretty neutral since I usually play with "custom HS" in the DS games, but in this game I leave the taiko HS as they are. (In taikojiro to play normally I have to delete them, FAIL)

As long as we can notice a huge difference of pitch which are the equivalent of the D and K sounds, I don't mind. But forcing isn't really a good idea imo (I personally hate forcing skins in standard mode :/)

Sakura wrote:

If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.

The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.
So regardless of which campaign you select of, either the mappers or the players are forced to have something they don't like.
And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.

Sakura wrote:

If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.

That can be really distracting to players generally. I already told you why. To simplify, players should react how hitsound sounds and every players have their own hitsounds to play and custom hitsounds can be really distracting for it. We think this is too much for player and that is why currently we are disallow it. I think we need to think about how players playing first, and I guess lots of Taiko mappers / players agree with that, at least I guess.

Whatever. BATs can intervene, but should respect experts opinions since BATs are not experts in here. Don't simply tip off our voice like that.

Loctav wrote:

The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.

You can relate this to the million of suggestions about forcing your own skin for osu! standard as well, why not make an osu! standard rule that says that you cannot use custom skin then since players dont like them?

Well, sure. Lepidon said it. We selected to enforce this scenario since most agree to it. If you choose enforce another scenario in osu!, well, okay.
I just mean the whole discussion about enforcing is not valid, neither in osu! Nor in taiko/CtB.
There need to be other reasons. And we brought them. Like you did in standard

@sakura: Again, generality... *sigh*

Let me ask, why it should be related? That is the matter of osu standard and this is the matter of Taiko. osu standard matters are not so related in this thread, I think, so those millions of voices, should we care about that?

----
This is getting ridiculous, we are trying to find a reasons to defend but why we should keep talking about other things like how people did in osu standard or how people did in TnT or how people did in piano or something? (At least those's 'accustomed to high/low pitch' was valuable, but others, meh.)

EDIT:
Whatever, for me, time-out.
This will be decided by outsiders as other important matter was done previously, as always. I'm quite sure lololol

Alright. Time to bring in an example.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/110219

Why can maps like this be mapped accurately to Taiko?

Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.

Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.

If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.

@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
@lepidopodus: This will not happen again. Not here.

@those
Ok I am not an experient mapper but
at least when I am mapping I try to follow the song's drumline using the hitsounds
And it makes sense for me since it's a drum game
So, for what I can see, it IS bsed on hitsounds (and colors, duh)

Also, I play this game only because of the Taiko Mode
So, for me, this game IS Taiko TOO.
That's why we have the Taiko Community
And im my opinion (haters gonna hate), mapping without taiko default hitsounds isn't map for taiko.
It's okay if you map it for your own fun, but as someone (can't remember who) said before, force players to play it is just cruel.

Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.

OnosakiHito wrote:

@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".

So now that we have this, what's wrong with using a bass drum as don and a snare drum as kat?

@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.

Before I sleep please remember this guys: we are talking about allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not disallowing any kind of authentic things or something. (I always told this towards Taiko guys but this time it's not, lol.)

If you guys criticize me for cling to authentic I think that might be valid, but most other Taiko guys here are really far from authentic TnT things, their experience, their mapping style or playing style, lots of things. And if we are talking about authentics we might say 'disallowing everything beside Taiko skin' but several Taiko players, even some in here are using other hitsound or their own hitsound. Currently It's really bad to criticizing Taiko community for being cling to authentic things cause it isn't valid anymore, we are already far from that, seriously.

OnosakiHito wrote:

@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.

And the answer is, "there is nothing wrong". It's only you who is against it because you fail to see that change is possibly an improvement, even though there's enough space to fix errors if needed.

^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video. I'm done with you here. peppys quote says everything.

OnosakiHito wrote:

^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video.

So, you must think there's something wrong with the music in the video. Lemme give it to you straight: there isn't.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.

I agree. But who is to say they won't sound just as good/better with alternate hitsounds?

I think this is crazy. If I want to make my own map of say Nighwish or other Guitar based songs, I can't use kick / snare? Its like saying that all the maps must be Oni cause that some people won't play anything less. This elitism is crazy. We have maps in osu! standard that are head and shoulders beyond what the EBA/OTO devs thought about. I would agree that the don be a low and kat be a high but there is no reason why they can't change if they see fit. If someone doesn't like that a map uses non-standard hitsounds, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PLAY IT. (capped for emphasis)

^@: The reason for this has been given by lepidopodus allready before(and also some other people).
Please go some sites(1?) backwards, I'm sure you will find the answer.

@GigaClon: We are opposing this cause we think that is really distracing for playing properly. Generally Taiko mappers agree at this as well so that is why we maintain this rule until now. (At least I assume.) I already describe how this is different from osu standard, not simply ignoring others.

Someone who is considered as 'with in Taiko community' or someone who knows this matter at least a bit can critisize me having elitism, but to be honest, even without any knowledge about this matter, do not simply called someone like that. Put everything in to elitism is also the way ignoring someone's opinion.

Also onosakihito, please be more reasonable.

(This keeps me awaken in this deep night lolol)

EDIT:
BTW, stop talking about unrelated things. This time we got 'elitism'. I'm expecting what would be the next.

EDIT2:
BTW I'm thinking about compromisation, cause this matter is worth to keep open to future discussion, I guess

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?

Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )

For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.

Which game?

peppy wrote:

Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!.

The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?

Is that not what modding is for? "I mapped my song this way because I interpret it this way with its current position in space and time, so I reject any suggestion that can make it better."

MMzz wrote:

Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )

And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?

MMzz wrote:

For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.

Again, is this not modding is for?

MMzz wrote:

At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)

So, can you say that there is zero chance of another hitsound set that is capable of achieving the same freestyle beat and flow?

those wrote:

And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?

I never said such a thing. I'm trying to point out that if people use custom hits it's just going to get WORSE.

those wrote:

Again, is this not modding is for?

Modding taiko, that's a funny joke.


@Sakura, go get your taiko playcount up some so I can take what you are saying seriously.


Why don't you guys actually read my post before going off on how bad my opinion is because I think custom hits are stupid.

tl;dr:

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.

^Exactly what I think.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

tl;dr:

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.

^Exactly what I think.

+1

Sakura wrote:

Which game?

Well yeah it's not TnT but it's still Taiko mode in osu!.

Sakura wrote:

The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"

I really don't agree that this is the same argument but let's assume that it is the same. Even if it is the same, people participating in the discussion are different and people will be affected are different. Previous decisions in other community might be a good reference but we don't need to end this with the same conclusion.

At least in osu standard there were lots of mappers who want custom skinning enabled, but in this thread, even major Taiko mappers are not that supportive...

What i'm saying is, that if you dont want to use custom hitsounds in taiko you're free to not do so, but you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them.

If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?

ok, I don't know if you guys really get what I mean or even watch my comment before

I restate it here

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself

In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!

The whole argument is pointless, because the suggested aren't even thinking about the points lepidon and MMzz bring along.
They generally overread them, pick context less stuff, comment them in a provoking way and refuse to understand the reasons behind this.
Freedom to all mappers, that's your purpose, Sakura. Go nuke all rules.


I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.
And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.

Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.

I should hinder myself to not get offensive, so far.

for gods sake, read and kill ALL ARGUMENTS given and not only turn the word in our mouth just to make them easier to shot down.

Sakuras stupid question of 'which game' is one of this provocative stupid behavior.

Then state it clearly.
Why is using custom hitsounds bad for this game?

Give us all a reason that I haven't fired back at yet.

Read the discussion of when you started suggesting this.
Quote them all, kill them all.
Then we proceed.
And also kill the arguments, that killed yours.
I refuse to repeat all of us for the 6th time already.

So you choose to speak like you're a god, too. You still haven't responded about the prepared piano.

In addition, for those interested, there has been no discussion about custom hitsounds until ztrot and I posted earlier.

I did. And others did too. Nothing more to add here. I don't act as a god, I just show you that you are not killing every argument and just picking the ones who aren't supposed to be the main ones, at all.

Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).

Luna wrote:

Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.

It's not my favourite argument, but it is one that makes a lot of sense.

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.

Let us now imagine a prepared piano. Instead of using screws to stick between the strings, you're now using a nail that is thicker in width, and is driven deeper into the piano. The performance will not sound the same, but some will argue that it may sound better than the piano prepared with screws. Conversely, some may say that it does not sound as great.

But if you compare that to what we have now, we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance.

Luna wrote:

Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).

It is about gameplay. The don and kat represents a low tone and a high tone, respectively. They still look the same (you have red/blue, we're not talking about creating taiko note skins yet), but the timbre of the don/kat is now changed. However, with my new rule suggestion, don will still represent the low tone, and kat will still represent the high tone. And I emphasize again: we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance. Why is that?

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.

That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.
There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO

Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same

those wrote:

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.

EXACTLY.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.

Luna wrote:

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?

Luna wrote:

That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.

Luna wrote:

There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same

We already agreed on this.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

those wrote:

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.

EXACTLY.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?

You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

I can't argue about anything right now. /learning

those wrote:

Luna wrote:

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?

I really don't want to learn how to play again
Inb4 "Its not learn again, it is accustomed."
For me it is.
Why do you want to force it?
I'm sure at least 90% of us doesn't want it
Sounds like you (and some other people) want it just to turn your maps better for YOU (I may be wrong but that's what I can see)
So please, DO IT, but don't rank it, please.
Do it, share with everyone on #taiko
Some will have lots of fun playing it and some will not. Deal with it.
Turn it rankable doesn't make sense.

those wrote:

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?

Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.

those wrote:

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.

Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.

those wrote:

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.

With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.

those wrote:

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.

Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.

those wrote:

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?

As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.

As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.

We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.

@Luanny:

Nothing will happen before I/we don't get valid reasons or the community agrees itself to it.

OnosakiHito wrote:

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.

Hi matthewhln. Excuse us for ignoring you.

matthewhln wrote:

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode

This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".

matthewhln wrote:

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult

We don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.

matthewhln wrote:

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?

Yes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.

matthewhln wrote:

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself

I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?

OnosakiHito wrote:

2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

That's like asking me why I didn't know how to use calculus when I was 5. It was available at an earlier point in my life, but I didn't figure its importance to me until now.

As interesting as this all is I've been reading that last few pages I can see one thing that does really need to be addressed and that is
"if a map is going to have custom hitsounds for a taiko diff they must follow a set example and must be drum related." As for forcing taiko only sounds that rule could never hold up because you are basing this rule off a skin and not something that comes with osu as stock so really there isn't much more to discuss your only wasting time with this instead lets all go be productive or detail some other things that need to be sorted out in taiko rules.

ztrot missed the point. You lost.
Reread the last post of me and lepidon. Then retry. Thanks.

your point doesn't make sense?

Your neither. We aren't basing our arguments on a specific skin.

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?

Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.

Compare to a flight simulator game that requires you to complete a course with a certain choice of aircraft. It's not a "B-17 Flying Fortress Simulator Game", for example, it's a flight simulator game.

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.

Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.

You mean by you, right? You have no audio evidence to back up your claim that taiko hitsounds are always better (and neither do I proving otherwise, so this point is going nowhere).

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.

With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.

So you're forced to deal with that the mapper thinks is appropriate. Then you gotta get your map to +8, pass through many, many mods, get a MAT bubble, and pass through the BAT to get it ranked. If it's actually inappropriate somebody will have pointed it out, more than likely.

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.

Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.

Mappers should not be limited to the four hitsounds of your current dkDK to express their own musical interpretation.

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?

As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.

Lack of examples. Empty assumption here.

Loctav wrote:

As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.

We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.

I was not about to compare this to standard mode, but there's no way I cannot.
According to you, players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own skin they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the objects (circles, sliders, spinners) according to the song. Practically there exists no skin, that serves better skin elements [as the default skin] to a mapset.

OnosakiHito wrote:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.

Looks like you've been highlighting the wrong words of ppy, OnosakiHito.

wait so your saying don't add custom sounds and make players make changes to there skin? I'm pretty sure hitsounds are for a mapper to decide

Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.

If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so. (extreme, sarcastic example, don't reuse for further argumentation)

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.

Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)

@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.

and well:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.

I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.

Mid-ground. Maps are allowed custom samples PROVIDED they are drum related if a mapper whats to add customs that is his choice not ours.

Loctav wrote:

Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.

Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.

Loctav wrote:

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.

We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?
Also, though authentic DONKAT (let's refer to these as DONKAT) for the purpose of this discussion, may be fitting, who is to say another set won't be more or less fitting? Is it not up to the mapper to decide and up to mods to suggest with reasons otherwise?

Loctav wrote:

Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)

If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).

Loctav wrote:

@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.

But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.

Who gives a shit, its 1 map, if you don't want to play a map with fucking custom sounds then don't play the map... easy as that... pussies.

OnosakiHito wrote:

You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

I can't argue about anything right now. /learning

1. Nope i haven't missed it, in fact he has always brought up good points that YOU guys are ignoring.

2. Even tho this question is towards those i'll answer it: Just because something is allowed doesn't mean people will use it, as i stated earlier you guys are free to do whatever you want with what your maps, rules only state what people arent allowed to do.

Anyways what i really want is a clear reason why the hitsounds cannot be customized that follows the following:

It is not a personal preference: i.e. I only like the Taiko hitsounds. I cannot play without Taiko hitsounds.

Allowing it breaks the game: i.e glitches, crashes, etc.

Allowing it makes it unreadable: i.e. Cannot see the colors of the notes, notes become invisible (this could be under glitches).

It is not TnT / Authentic related: i.e. Those are the Taiko sounds, that's how it works in TnT, it stops being Taiko without those sounds (fwiw some taiko games have other hitsounds as selectable options)

If you think you can cover a reason that follows these i don't see this rule serving any purpose.

Edit: Also i didnt read ztrot's post earlier, but i do agree with that, in fact is what i've been proposing from the very beginning.

Loctav wrote:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.

I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.

Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.

There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.

You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?

I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.

I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.

I can't believe you people take the time to discuss this for 8 pages long but can't take the time to even try the song.

Sakura may reread, too. Give it a try.

dkun wrote:

Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.

There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.

You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?

I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.

I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.

It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right. But right now, we somehow can't agree to something. Both sides have their valid point and apparantly both sides are having completely different views of this. We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.

---

Still editing X___X

those wrote:

Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.

Because I oppose giving mappers the freedom the players will lack of.

those wrote:

We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?
Also, though authentic DONKAT (let's refer to these as DONKAT) for the purpose of this discussion, may be fitting, who is to say another set won't be more or less fitting? Is it not up to the mapper to decide and up to mods to suggest with reasons otherwise?

We never denied that. We just deny, that this is decided by the mapper, what fits the best. The donkat placement self is way enough to "represent the music in the mappers eye". Since every drum fits the same, the donkat placement will be the same on every sound sampleset. On which drums the "notechart" is played should be selected by the players.

those wrote:

If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).

Because you kill the option for "every drum" when forcing it to "only one drum"

those wrote:

But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.

They do, because they are both rhythm game. We never doubted that. But the focus of the game modes are different.

Loctav wrote:

Sakura may reread, too. Give it a try.

dkun wrote:

Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.

There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.

You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?

I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.

I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.

It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right. But right now, we somehow can't agree to something. Both sides have their valid point and apparantly both sides are having completely different views of this. We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.

You imply with all your words that you do own it. I don't think we all worship peppy like a God in this thread, do we? You're just taking that out of the wrong context. Both sides have their valid points, but you fail to recognize the points of the opposing side. We're just trying to explain our reasonings, yet you just throw the same invalid crap back, as I said earlier, p a r r o t i n g!

"It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right."

This should have been the end of the discussion.

You are getting way to personal in my opinion. Our points are not invalid just because you can't relate to them. As you may see, I try to show "those" that "custom hitsounds" are not stuff that doesnt fit in general, but the "enforcement by the mapper's side" isn't the right way to go.

How is calling you out on a contradiction personal? I don't even...

but limiting the mapper who makes the map, that brings it into creation is? So mapping is to be limited based on a preference mind set? if we allowed this it would be the same as forcing default sounds on all osu standard maps and say if you don't like it edit your skin.

Mid-ground means at the time of the challenge, the balance is set in the middle. It doesn't start from your end or mine.
And since this is leaning toward neither side, this means your evidence is not strong enough to bring the balance back over to your side (the current rules).
As a result, we need to have a compromise.

In addition:

Loctav wrote:

You are getting way to personal in my opinion. Our points are not invalid just because you can't relate to them. As you may see, I try to show "those" that "custom hitsounds" are not stuff that doesnt fit in general, but the "enforcement by the mapper's side" isn't the right way to go.

osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.

Loctav seriously will 1 map in the entirety of taiko that uses custom drumsounds ruin your whole life? If so you should probably never play regular Osu!. It'll drive you insane.

my input wasn't that needed, as other thinks similiar things to me.

those wrote:

Mid-ground means at the time of the challenge, the balance is set in the middle. It doesn't start from your end or mine.
And since this is leaning toward neither side, this means your evidence is not strong enough to bring the balance back over to your side (the current rules).
As a result, we need to have a compromise.

In addition:

Loctav wrote:

You are getting way to personal in my opinion. Our points are not invalid just because you can't relate to them. As you may see, I try to show "those" that "custom hitsounds" are not stuff that doesnt fit in general, but the "enforcement by the mapper's side" isn't the right way to go.

osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.

if a map is going to have custom hitsounds for a taiko diff they must follow a set example and must be drum related
lol repeated myself I think this is more than decent mid ground.

Well, HakuNoKaemi said a valid point, that "allowing custom hitsounds as long as you can override them with your own skin" is something I can accept as "midground" or compromise.

I was opposing that hard because iirc Sakura said, that the skin should not override the hitsounds (anymore).
In osu!standard some similar midground was achieved (NoSkin/NoSB mod? dunno anymore) - and you can also enforce your own skin's cursor.

there was a no SB, but never a no skin and hitsound placed in a map can not be overwritten afaik

Right now, if you try to set custom hitsounds (taiko-normal-hitclap.wav and so on) for a Taiko diff, it gets overwritten if you check the "Always use Taiko Skin on Taiko Maps" option. Sakura was suggesting to kill this overwriting iirc.

Loctav wrote:

Well, HakuNoKaemi said a valid point, that "allowing custom hitsounds as long as you can override them with your own skin" is something I can accept as "midground" or compromise.

I was opposing that hard because iirc Sakura said, that the skin should not override the hitsounds (anymore).
In osu!standard some similar midground was achieved (NoSkin/NoSB mod? dunno anymore) - and you can also enforce your own skin's cursor.

There is also "force skin" in standard, for certain maps (e.g Cirno TAG4 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25739).

this is my last post for this topic, say I was to make a taiko with custom samples I would want my map to be heard the way I intended it to be made if I didn't I wouldn't of taken the time to add custom sets I took the time to set the beats and place the notes don't I deserve to have my creation played they way I wanted it to be? ztrot out I'm gonna go be productive.

those wrote:

There is also "force skin" in standard, for certain maps (e.g Cirno TAG4 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25739).

Oh really? How to activate it? Well, this is way too offtopic, but you may introduce this to me via ingame PM, lol.

ztrot wrote:

this is my last post for this topic, say I was to make a taiko with custom samples I would want my map to be heard the way I intended it to be made if I didn't I wouldn't of taken the time to add custom sets I took the time to set the beats and place the notes don't I deserve to have my creation played they way I wanted it to be? ztrot out I'm gonna go be productive.

if we assume that we use the said compromise about allowing overwriting by the own custom skin, why not? Me by myself is okay with the compromise. We may should recall the others if they agree with this or something similiar.

osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.

No, it's not that simple. For one, you can skin Taiko visually as well, which is more like the equivalent to standard skins. And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno. That is way more similar to what hitsounds represent in Taiko.

Loctav wrote:

We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.

The purpose of rules is to prevent the game from breaking, glitching or make it unreadable, not to restrict the mappers. Although from the looks of it you didn't read at all my previous post.

And all i've seen from you is that you say it was impossible for YOU to play with different hitsounds. When you guys start throwing personal opinions on the matter it breaks up your whole argument.

You want me to look through all your posts? fine then i'll do it again:

p/1543741

Loctav wrote:

Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.

This isn't a reason to not remove a rule, because it will make it Better not worse.

Loctav wrote:

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT.

I already told you in #lounge that it could be restricted to drum sounds to not sound awkward.

Loctav wrote:

Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work.

No, the thing is that you must show us examples of why it's bad to play with custom hitsounds, so that we can see how it breaks the game.

p/1543865

Loctav wrote:

The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes.

Modding, it may be true most modders dont pay that much attention to how playable the patterns are, however that doesn't mean we are diff towards the hitsounds being used.

p/1543865 (I've already commented on the "Distracting part" so)

Loctav wrote:

but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.

What determines what to press is the map, the hitsounds just determine what you hear from hitting.

p/1544008

Loctav wrote:

Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.

I don't get this, it just takes a don and a kat press to know their sounds, you're allowed to hit them before the song even begins in case you didn't know.

Loctav wrote:

It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction.

Isn't this what the majority of osu!standard players complain about as well with skins and backgrounds?

p/1544476
[quote"Loctav"]The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.[/quote] Yes, but that's what is intended, to play the maps as the mappers want, not as the mappers are forced to by rules from taiko players. If players dictated rules to mapping, custom skinning per-map would have been gone a long time ago.

Loctav wrote:

And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.

Ah well, but because something isn't enforced doesn't mean you have to use it, we arent making a rule that says that you must use custom hitsounds yet you guys are treating us like we do. All we are proposing is to have the option of using them or not depending on what the mapper wants.

p/1544928

Loctav wrote:

I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.

Again, we are not forcing the use of custom hitsounds, we just want the option of using them or not...

Loctav wrote:

And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.

Again, examples please, heck, you'd need to show me that's a 0% chance that it will work to be able to ban it, so you'd need quite... a lot of examples.

Loctav wrote:

Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.

I've never seen such discussion, enlighten me towards where it is so i can see what your reasonings behind banning it are because so far i see no reason to ban all of the custom hitsounded maps.

p/1545110

Loctav wrote:

Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.

Again, you guys need to provide examples that it doesnt work in 100% of the cases, if it works in even ONE case, is good enough to turn the rule into a guideline.

Loctav wrote:

Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music.

Yeah i agree it contains more art than Taiko, but in the sense that you can make pretty patterns on the screen with your notes, the art with hitsounds from Standard can easily be transfered to Taiko, unless you midnlessly put notes all the time, then yeah there is no art.

Loctav wrote:

As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong.

Is not about focusing on something different than the drumbeat, however dont all taiko maps do that already? most drumbeats i hear on songs are at 1/1 or 1/2 constant, also im never saying to not use drum hitsounds, just dont force taiko sounds.

p/1545154

Loctav wrote:

Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.

This gives me more reason to allow custom hitsounds.

Loctav wrote:

If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so.

You go convince peppy to allow a hitsound toggle so it's all fair for everyone, since standard players have to play with the mapper's intended hitsounds. Of course i agree with this, and Taiko mappers should be able to choose their hitsounds.

Loctav wrote:

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?

This would make sense if this was the case for standard too, but players have to bear with what the mapper intended, so why not Taiko? oh in fact they dont have to bear anyways since there's a toggle that forces all of the Taiko Skin!, freedom for the mappers to map however they want, you arent forced to play a taiko map you don't like.

Loctav wrote:

-Link to peppy's post- I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here.

Yeah... MIDDLE GROUND, so far i only see one sided ground.

p/1545194

Loctav wrote:

Because I oppose giving mappers the freedom the players will lack of.

Then why dont you go create a thread to ban the use of custom skins and custom hitsounds, and even Storyboards for standard, since that annoys players and they always complain about them? I dont see you doing that, oh right, it wouldnt happen no matter how many reasonings you give right? Just stop dropping the Player's Freedom > Mapper's freedom, it doesn't work here.

Well at least please respect somone actually plays / maps, guys? If you guys ensure that Taiko people will make final decision I won't be aggressive anymore, but in current situations I doubt we can make decisions by our own, to be honest, seriously.

I've give this some thoughts and concluded that custom hitsounds can be implemented eith certain limitations. I stated how custom hitsound can interfere Taiko gameplay a lot, but in practically I think this can be overcomed relatively easily if we set certain regulations, based on my experience. (Yeah mappers might want to implement there own hitsound and want to players hear it. Currently there's not much mappers doing that but who knows.) But this regulations and deciding certain hitsound is valid or not must be done by Taiko experts or at least several Taiko players since it is quite practical thing and need lots of experience to decided it's valid or not.

(Technically, currently using force Taiko skin option overrides any kind of custom hitsounds, as I know, though, as matthewhln said.)

Luna wrote:

No, it's not that simple. For one, you can skin Taiko visually as well, which is more like the equivalent to standard skins.

No, it is not. osu! focuses more on visual, and Taiko focuses more on audio. What affects visual? Skins. What affects audio? Sounds. Isn't that supposed to be a simple concept?

Luna wrote:

And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno.

No, it does not. Even if you delete all the skin elements, you are left with the Default skin, and the inability to choose my own skin. Try it out for yourself, thank you very much for your time.

lepidopodus wrote:

Well at least please respect somone actually plays / maps, guys? If you guys ensure that Taiko people will make final decision I won't be aggressive anymore, but in current situations I doubt we can make decisions by our own, to be honest, seriously.

I think the compromise would be that Taiko people get to make the final decision IFF they are able to bring up enough reasons why the custom hitsounds are not appropriate. While we respect the people that actually plays/maps, the area for "acceptable" is fairly broad.

Ok so finally that the argument is over let's start out by setting out how the guideline should go.

First of all i'd say the custom hitsounds have to be drum related (already said by ztrot lol)

those wrote:

Luna wrote:

And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno.

No, it does not. Even if you delete all the skin elements, you are left with the Default skin, and the inability to choose my own skin. Try it out for yourself, thank you very much for your time.

No, it uses the slider style and cursor of YOUR skin. Try it, you'll have mmsliders and a custom cursor despite the map forcing standard skin.
And that's just my point, the most integral instruments of playing the game can be forced over a mapper-chosen skin.

Suggestion, brought up from p/1543951

those wrote:

Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.

Luna wrote:

No, it uses the slider style and cursor of YOUR skin. Try it, you'll have mmsliders and a custom cursor despite the map forcing standard skin.
And that's just my point, the most integral instruments of playing the game can be forced over a mapper-chosen skin.

Take a picture for me, will you? Right now.
Edit: Here's my skin: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/321953
and here Cirno TAG4 gameplay: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/321955

Edit: sorry, misread your post. But slider style and cursor are definitely not the most integral parts of the skin.

so let's try

Custom hitsounds must be drum-related. If custom hitsounds are used, they should have deeper/lower tone set as don and a higher/lighter tone as kat.

Fix my grammar please.

Thanks for letting me explain it in more detail, and I will tell you guys why the argument is pointless IMO

Please jump to conclusion, if you feel too annoying to see what I have said

those wrote:

matthewhln wrote:

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode

This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".

Neither mapper or player should be forced to use the custom skins/custom hitsound
so if they want to get rid of it, let them do it themselves

Also, Avoiding is not possible until peppy changed the program

matthewhln wrote:

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult

We don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.

The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound

matthewhln wrote:

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?

Yes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.

My point is, if the player selected "use taiko skin for taiko mode", custom hitsound will do nothing
if the player don't select it, they suit themselves

matthewhln wrote:

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself

I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?

The game default hitsound in taiko mode is different from using taiko skin
so it is already not something like "DON" and "KAT" (basic hitsound of taiko)
using custom hitsound will not affect so much
or I should say, discuss the impact of using custom hitsound is meaningless

To be conclude
1. "if the player don't use taiko skiln, they suit themselves"
2. "if they want to get rid of custom hitsound, let them do it themselves"
3. "The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound"

The main point of argument, which is "timbre of custom hitsound" is not in the rule
So what is the meaning of arguing?

those wrote:

Edit: sorry, misread your post. But slider style and cursor are not the most integral parts of the skin.

To me, Taiko hitsounds feel very much like a osu! cursor (and yes, I consider the cursor to be the most important part of a skin)
But from what I gather, your opinion on that seems to differ

/E: whatever, I'll just let the matter rest

matthewhln wrote:

To be conclude
1. "if the player don't use taiko skiln, they suit themselves"
2. "if they want to get rid of custom hitsound, let them do it themselves"
3. "The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound"

The main point of argument, which is "timbre of custom hitsound" is not in the rule
So what is the meaning of arguing?

Hey matthew. We aren't debating over the volume of the hitsounds at all.
Secondly, timbre is what the hitsound sounds like. Light/deep/echoing/sharp are all ways to describe the timbre. We are trying to get the usage of custom hitsounds.
Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

Luna wrote:

To me, Taiko hitsounds feel very much like a osu! cursor (and yes, I consider the cursor to be the most important part of a skin)
But from what I gather, your opinion on that seems to differ

Everybody has their own priorities on skins. I, for one, get distracted if the hitsounds aren't loud enough and I can hear the sound of my own mouse clicking. As for cursor, I am usually able to play with any (I've been switching back and forth from default to smaller cursor due to modding and playing). Sliderstyle doesn't really matter, so definitely not integral (I can play with 1, 2, or 3).
In short, opinions can differ. But similarly to how a skin can match a map in standard, a custom hitsound set can match a map in Taiko.

Loctav wrote:

Custom hitsounds must be drum-related. If custom hitsounds are used, they should have deeper/lower tone set as don and a higher/lighter tone as kat.

This sounds good. What will the ruling on other miscellaneous sounds be, though? For example, lazers, whistles, etc.

A little tidbit: I've always referred to Taiko as "the drum game".

Nah, come on. We came to the conclusion that this is at least a drumming simulation. So let it stay at drum-customs D:

those wrote:

Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

This is cannot be decide by anyone including BAT,MAT,the taiko community, you and me

Peppy is the only one who can control this by making new mechanism to add limit on locking the custom hitsound

Beside,the player can also decide themselves too (by deleting custom hitsound)
Sakura once state that "you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them"
so why we need to enforce player to use custom hitsound?

Loctav wrote:

Nah, come on. We came to the conclusion that this is at least a drumming simulation. So let it stay at drum-customs D:

Fair enough. Can we have this seconded, please?

matthewhln wrote:

Sakura once state that "you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them"
so why we need to enforce player to use custom hitsound?

This was directed at default hitsounds, as in "you should not force [default hitsounds] on mappers that actually want to use [custom hitsounds]".

This is the dumbest rule/argument I've seen in a long time.

those wrote:

Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

that's not going to happen, and it would be really stupid if it did happen.

those wrote:

Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.

This was directed at default hitsounds, as in "you should not force [default hitsounds] on mappers that actually want to use [custom hitsounds]".

1.
I do not want to extend the discussion to "The freedom/right of a player deserved"

I also think you already understand "The freedom/right of a player deserved"
This is just a game lol

2.
As I said, "Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode"
which mean if mapper use [custom hitsounds], still affect NOTHING

3.
Same, Peppy is the only one who can control this
so please find peppy but not the taiko community for this
but I doute if he would accpet

http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Taiko_Ranking_Criteria

From now on please make a topic regarding each rule/guideline with [Taiko | Guideline] or [Taiko | Rule] in the title, the wiki can be edited by everyone as well, and translated versions can be made as well.

That way a single thread doesn't become a mess and a mash of rules/guidelines, and it looks more organized.

This also means that these are already considered official and will start being enforced (until ammendments are made)