@^: Well at least I got your reasons, thanks.
Hi Lu.[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors
those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.Loctav wrote:
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
This is very true, as I use custom hitsounds sometimes for taiko, (When I'm playing metal songs and stuff, but never when I'm playing authentic or for ranking) . But like he said, forcing it in a mapset would just be cruel.MMzz wrote:
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)Loctav wrote:
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT
Looks like a good idea to me. p/1278182peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
I already stated how hitsound can be effect gameplay, and I already state just stating that high/low can be too subjective. You are just ignoring me.those wrote:
Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
lepidopodus wrote:
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys.
I agree. But ppy has said that he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name. He didn't choose it because he wanted it to be identical to "taiko no tatsujin".Sander-Don wrote:
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)
This is matter of allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not keeping it authentic or not. Did I said something like 'keep this cause this is authentic?' or something? And players are already use player-specific hitsound which is already far different from authentic TnT.Sakura wrote:
Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:
After all, the Taiko mode is similar to Taiko no Tatsujin and is a Taiko no Tatsujin simulatorthose wrote:
he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name.
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.Sakura wrote:
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
That can be really distracting to players generally. I already told you why. To simplify, players should react how hitsound sounds and every players have their own hitsounds to play and custom hitsounds can be really distracting for it. We think this is too much for player and that is why currently we are disallow it. I think we need to think about how players playing first, and I guess lots of Taiko mappers / players agree with that, at least I guess.Sakura wrote:
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
You can relate this to the million of suggestions about forcing your own skin for osu! standard as well, why not make an osu! standard rule that says that you cannot use custom skin then since players dont like them?Loctav wrote:
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.
Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
So now that we have this, what's wrong with using a bass drum as don and a snare drum as kat?OnosakiHito wrote:
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
And the answer is, "there is nothing wrong". It's only you who is against it because you fail to see that change is possibly an improvement, even though there's enough space to fix errors if needed.OnosakiHito wrote:
@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
So, you must think there's something wrong with the music in the video. Lemme give it to you straight: there isn't.OnosakiHito wrote:
^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video.
I agree. But who is to say they won't sound just as good/better with alternate hitsounds?[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
Which game?MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!.
Is that not what modding is for? "I mapped my song this way because I interpret it this way with its current position in space and time, so I reject any suggestion that can make it better."MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?MMzz wrote:
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
Again, is this not modding is for?MMzz wrote:
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
So, can you say that there is zero chance of another hitsound set that is capable of achieving the same freestyle beat and flow?MMzz wrote:
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
I never said such a thing. I'm trying to point out that if people use custom hits it's just going to get WORSE.those wrote:
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?
Modding taiko, that's a funny joke.those wrote:
Again, is this not modding is for?
^Exactly what I think.MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
+1[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
tl;dr:^Exactly what I think.MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
Well yeah it's not TnT but it's still Taiko mode in osu!.Sakura wrote:
Which game?
I really don't agree that this is the same argument but let's assume that it is the same. Even if it is the same, people participating in the discussion are different and people will be affected are different. Previous decisions in other community might be a good reference but we don't need to end this with the same conclusion.Sakura wrote:
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
It's not my favourite argument, but it is one that makes a lot of sense.Luna wrote:
Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
It is about gameplay. The don and kat represents a low tone and a high tone, respectively. They still look the same (you have red/blue, we're not talking about creating taiko note skins yet), but the timbre of the don/kat is now changed. However, with my new rule suggestion, don will still represent the low tone, and kat will still represent the high tone. And I emphasize again: we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance. Why is that?Luna wrote:
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
EXACTLY.those wrote:
Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?Luna wrote:
Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.
You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.Luna wrote:
That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.
There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.Luna wrote:
There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO
We already agreed on this.[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same
Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
EXACTLY.those wrote:
Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.
I really don't want to learn how to play againthose wrote:
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?Luna wrote:
Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.
Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.those wrote:
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.those wrote:
You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.
With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.those wrote:
There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.those wrote:
Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.those wrote:
Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
OnosakiHito wrote:
Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.
If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.
Hi matthewhln. Excuse us for ignoring you.OnosakiHito wrote:
1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".matthewhln wrote:
1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
We don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.matthewhln wrote:
2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
Yes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.matthewhln wrote:
3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?matthewhln wrote:
4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
That's like asking me why I didn't know how to use calculus when I was 5. It was available at an earlier point in my life, but I didn't figure its importance to me until now.OnosakiHito wrote:
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?
Compare to a flight simulator game that requires you to complete a course with a certain choice of aircraft. It's not a "B-17 Flying Fortress Simulator Game", for example, it's a flight simulator game.Loctav wrote:
Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.those wrote:
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.
You mean by you, right? You have no audio evidence to back up your claim that taiko hitsounds are always better (and neither do I proving otherwise, so this point is going nowhere).Loctav wrote:
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.those wrote:
You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.
So you're forced to deal with that the mapper thinks is appropriate. Then you gotta get your map to +8, pass through many, many mods, get a MAT bubble, and pass through the BAT to get it ranked. If it's actually inappropriate somebody will have pointed it out, more than likely.Loctav wrote:
With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.those wrote:
There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.
Mappers should not be limited to the four hitsounds of your current dkDK to express their own musical interpretation.Loctav wrote:
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.those wrote:
Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.
Lack of examples. Empty assumption here.Loctav wrote:
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.those wrote:
Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.
I was not about to compare this to standard mode, but there's no way I cannot.Loctav wrote:
As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.
We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.
Looks like you've been highlighting the wrong words of ppy, OnosakiHito.OnosakiHito wrote:
peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.Loctav wrote:
Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.
We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?Loctav wrote:
Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.
If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).Loctav wrote:
Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)
But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.Loctav wrote:
@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.
1. Nope i haven't missed it, in fact he has always brought up good points that YOU guys are ignoring.OnosakiHito wrote:
You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.
1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?
I can't argue about anything right now. /learning
Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.Loctav wrote:
I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
dkun wrote:
Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.
There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.
You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?
I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.
I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.
Because I oppose giving mappers the freedom the players will lack of.those wrote:
Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.
We never denied that. We just deny, that this is decided by the mapper, what fits the best. The donkat placement self is way enough to "represent the music in the mappers eye". Since every drum fits the same, the donkat placement will be the same on every sound sampleset. On which drums the "notechart" is played should be selected by the players.those wrote:
We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?
Also, though authentic DONKAT (let's refer to these as DONKAT) for the purpose of this discussion, may be fitting, who is to say another set won't be more or less fitting? Is it not up to the mapper to decide and up to mods to suggest with reasons otherwise?
Because you kill the option for "every drum" when forcing it to "only one drum"those wrote:
If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).
They do, because they are both rhythm game. We never doubted that. But the focus of the game modes are different.those wrote:
But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.
You imply with all your words that you do own it. I don't think we all worship peppy like a God in this thread, do we? You're just taking that out of the wrong context. Both sides have their valid points, but you fail to recognize the points of the opposing side. We're just trying to explain our reasonings, yet you just throw the same invalid crap back, as I said earlier, p a r r o t i n g!Loctav wrote:
Sakura may reread, too. Give it a try.dkun wrote:
Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.
There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.
You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?
I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.
I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.
It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right. But right now, we somehow can't agree to something. Both sides have their valid point and apparantly both sides are having completely different views of this. We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.
osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.Loctav wrote:
You are getting way to personal in my opinion. Our points are not invalid just because you can't relate to them. As you may see, I try to show "those" that "custom hitsounds" are not stuff that doesnt fit in general, but the "enforcement by the mapper's side" isn't the right way to go.
osu!standard is a mixed way to express music: Visual, Auditive and Rhythmic. Taiko delete the Visual and expose more the other two.Loctav wrote:
Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))You contradicted yourself already: The only thing that serve in drumming is basically two tones: high and low.... so you can use other drums too. A normal drumset hitsoundset can be used too in rock songs for example. A latin song can use exotic drumset and so.
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.
If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so. (extreme, sarcastic example, don't reuse for further argumentation)"Use Taiko Skin for Taiko Mode" is arleady present... and like this it isn't forced.
Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?who said "enforce" ? I know osz2 is by the way, but like this you're enforcing mappers to use default hitsound, not the other way, permitting mapper to use different hitsounds. As said before. You even said "every drum fits every song".
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.
Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)
and well:Midground is permitting mapper chosen hitsounds and having ways to have them not be forced.I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
those wrote:
Mid-ground means at the time of the challenge, the balance is set in the middle. It doesn't start from your end or mine.
And since this is leaning toward neither side, this means your evidence is not strong enough to bring the balance back over to your side (the current rules).
As a result, we need to have a compromise.
In addition:osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.Loctav wrote:
You are getting way to personal in my opinion. Our points are not invalid just because you can't relate to them. As you may see, I try to show "those" that "custom hitsounds" are not stuff that doesnt fit in general, but the "enforcement by the mapper's side" isn't the right way to go.
There is also "force skin" in standard, for certain maps (e.g Cirno TAG4 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25739).Loctav wrote:
Well, HakuNoKaemi said a valid point, that "allowing custom hitsounds as long as you can override them with your own skin" is something I can accept as "midground" or compromise.
I was opposing that hard because iirc Sakura said, that the skin should not override the hitsounds (anymore).
In osu!standard some similar midground was achieved (NoSkin/NoSB mod? dunno anymore) - and you can also enforce your own skin's cursor.
Oh really? How to activate it? Well, this is way too offtopic, but you may introduce this to me via ingame PM, lol.those wrote:
There is also "force skin" in standard, for certain maps (e.g Cirno TAG4 http://osu.ppy.sh/s/25739).
if we assume that we use the said compromise about allowing overwriting by the own custom skin, why not? Me by myself is okay with the compromise. We may should recall the others if they agree with this or something similiar.ztrot wrote:
this is my last post for this topic, say I was to make a taiko with custom samples I would want my map to be heard the way I intended it to be made if I didn't I wouldn't of taken the time to add custom sets I took the time to set the beats and place the notes don't I deserve to have my creation played they way I wanted it to be? ztrot out I'm gonna go be productive.
osu!standard allows the beatmap to force skins that the mapper chooses. In terms of customization for either game mode, skin in osu!standard is synonymous to hitsounds in Taiko.No, it's not that simple. For one, you can skin Taiko visually as well, which is more like the equivalent to standard skins. And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno. That is way more similar to what hitsounds represent in Taiko.
The purpose of rules is to prevent the game from breaking, glitching or make it unreadable, not to restrict the mappers. Although from the looks of it you didn't read at all my previous post.Loctav wrote:
We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.
This isn't a reason to not remove a rule, because it will make it Better not worse.Loctav wrote:
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I already told you in #lounge that it could be restricted to drum sounds to not sound awkward.Loctav wrote:
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT.
No, the thing is that you must show us examples of why it's bad to play with custom hitsounds, so that we can see how it breaks the game.Loctav wrote:
Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work.
Modding, it may be true most modders dont pay that much attention to how playable the patterns are, however that doesn't mean we are diff towards the hitsounds being used.Loctav wrote:
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes.
What determines what to press is the map, the hitsounds just determine what you hear from hitting.Loctav wrote:
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
I don't get this, it just takes a don and a kat press to know their sounds, you're allowed to hit them before the song even begins in case you didn't know.Loctav wrote:
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
Isn't this what the majority of osu!standard players complain about as well with skins and backgrounds?Loctav wrote:
It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction.
Ah well, but because something isn't enforced doesn't mean you have to use it, we arent making a rule that says that you must use custom hitsounds yet you guys are treating us like we do. All we are proposing is to have the option of using them or not depending on what the mapper wants.Loctav wrote:
And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.
Again, we are not forcing the use of custom hitsounds, we just want the option of using them or not...Loctav wrote:
I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.
Again, examples please, heck, you'd need to show me that's a 0% chance that it will work to be able to ban it, so you'd need quite... a lot of examples.Loctav wrote:
And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.
I've never seen such discussion, enlighten me towards where it is so i can see what your reasonings behind banning it are because so far i see no reason to ban all of the custom hitsounded maps.Loctav wrote:
Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.
Again, you guys need to provide examples that it doesnt work in 100% of the cases, if it works in even ONE case, is good enough to turn the rule into a guideline.Loctav wrote:
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.
Yeah i agree it contains more art than Taiko, but in the sense that you can make pretty patterns on the screen with your notes, the art with hitsounds from Standard can easily be transfered to Taiko, unless you midnlessly put notes all the time, then yeah there is no art.Loctav wrote:
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music.
Is not about focusing on something different than the drumbeat, however dont all taiko maps do that already? most drumbeats i hear on songs are at 1/1 or 1/2 constant, also im never saying to not use drum hitsounds, just dont force taiko sounds.Loctav wrote:
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong.
This gives me more reason to allow custom hitsounds.Loctav wrote:
Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
You go convince peppy to allow a hitsound toggle so it's all fair for everyone, since standard players have to play with the mapper's intended hitsounds. Of course i agree with this, and Taiko mappers should be able to choose their hitsounds.Loctav wrote:
If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so.
This would make sense if this was the case for standard too, but players have to bear with what the mapper intended, so why not Taiko? oh in fact they dont have to bear anyways since there's a toggle that forces all of the Taiko Skin!, freedom for the mappers to map however they want, you arent forced to play a taiko map you don't like.Loctav wrote:
Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Yeah... MIDDLE GROUND, so far i only see one sided ground.Loctav wrote:
-Link to peppy's post- I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here.
Then why dont you go create a thread to ban the use of custom skins and custom hitsounds, and even Storyboards for standard, since that annoys players and they always complain about them? I dont see you doing that, oh right, it wouldnt happen no matter how many reasonings you give right? Just stop dropping the Player's Freedom > Mapper's freedom, it doesn't work here.Loctav wrote:
Because I oppose giving mappers the freedom the players will lack of.
No, it is not. osu! focuses more on visual, and Taiko focuses more on audio. What affects visual? Skins. What affects audio? Sounds. Isn't that supposed to be a simple concept?Luna wrote:
No, it's not that simple. For one, you can skin Taiko visually as well, which is more like the equivalent to standard skins.
No, it does not. Even if you delete all the skin elements, you are left with the Default skin, and the inability to choose my own skin. Try it out for yourself, thank you very much for your time.Luna wrote:
And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno.
I think the compromise would be that Taiko people get to make the final decision IFF they are able to bring up enough reasons why the custom hitsounds are not appropriate. While we respect the people that actually plays/maps, the area for "acceptable" is fairly broad.lepidopodus wrote:
Well at least please respect somone actually plays / maps, guys? If you guys ensure that Taiko people will make final decision I won't be aggressive anymore, but in current situations I doubt we can make decisions by our own, to be honest, seriously.
No, it uses the slider style and cursor of YOUR skin. Try it, you'll have mmsliders and a custom cursor despite the map forcing standard skin.those wrote:
No, it does not. Even if you delete all the skin elements, you are left with the Default skin, and the inability to choose my own skin. Try it out for yourself, thank you very much for your time.Luna wrote:
And secondly, Hitsounds are a much more integral part of the Taiko game mode than they are of standard osu! mode. Remember how you can force your own cursor and slider style over the map's skin? Yes, that even overrides forced skins like on Cirno.
those wrote:
Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.
Take a picture for me, will you? Right now.Luna wrote:
No, it uses the slider style and cursor of YOUR skin. Try it, you'll have mmsliders and a custom cursor despite the map forcing standard skin.
And that's just my point, the most integral instruments of playing the game can be forced over a mapper-chosen skin.
Custom hitsounds must be drum-related. If custom hitsounds are used, they should have deeper/lower tone set as don and a higher/lighter tone as kat.Fix my grammar please.
To be concludethose wrote:
This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".matthewhln wrote:
1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
Neither mapper or player should be forced to use the custom skins/custom hitsound
so if they want to get rid of it, let them do it themselves
Also, Avoiding is not possible until peppy changed the programWe don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.matthewhln wrote:
2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsoundYes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.matthewhln wrote:
3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
My point is, if the player selected "use taiko skin for taiko mode", custom hitsound will do nothing
if the player don't select it, they suit themselvesI'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?matthewhln wrote:
4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
The game default hitsound in taiko mode is different from using taiko skin
so it is already not something like "DON" and "KAT" (basic hitsound of taiko)
using custom hitsound will not affect so much
or I should say, discuss the impact of using custom hitsound is meaningless
To me, Taiko hitsounds feel very much like a osu! cursor (and yes, I consider the cursor to be the most important part of a skin)those wrote:
Edit: sorry, misread your post. But slider style and cursor are not the most integral parts of the skin.
Hey matthew. We aren't debating over the volume of the hitsounds at all.matthewhln wrote:
To be conclude
1. "if the player don't use taiko skiln, they suit themselves"
2. "if they want to get rid of custom hitsound, let them do it themselves"
3. "The origin rule state nothing about the timbre of the hitsound but the constant of volume of the hitsound"
The main point of argument, which is "timbre of custom hitsound" is not in the rule
So what is the meaning of arguing?
Everybody has their own priorities on skins. I, for one, get distracted if the hitsounds aren't loud enough and I can hear the sound of my own mouse clicking. As for cursor, I am usually able to play with any (I've been switching back and forth from default to smaller cursor due to modding and playing). Sliderstyle doesn't really matter, so definitely not integral (I can play with 1, 2, or 3).Luna wrote:
To me, Taiko hitsounds feel very much like a osu! cursor (and yes, I consider the cursor to be the most important part of a skin)
But from what I gather, your opinion on that seems to differ
This sounds good. What will the ruling on other miscellaneous sounds be, though? For example, lazers, whistles, etc.Loctav wrote:
Custom hitsounds must be drum-related. If custom hitsounds are used, they should have deeper/lower tone set as don and a higher/lighter tone as kat.
This is cannot be decide by anyone including BAT,MAT,the taiko community, you and methose wrote:
Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.
Fair enough. Can we have this seconded, please?Loctav wrote:
Nah, come on. We came to the conclusion that this is at least a drumming simulation. So let it stay at drum-customs D:
This was directed at default hitsounds, as in "you should not force [default hitsounds] on mappers that actually want to use [custom hitsounds]".matthewhln wrote:
Sakura once state that "you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them"
so why we need to enforce player to use custom hitsound?
that's not going to happen, and it would be really stupid if it did happen.those wrote:
Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.
1.those wrote:
Thirdly, I'm arguing that the player should not be able to change custom hitsounds if the map has one specifically defined.
This was directed at default hitsounds, as in "you should not force [default hitsounds] on mappers that actually want to use [custom hitsounds]".