Looks like a good idea to me. p/1278182peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
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Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)
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@^: Hey I guess you are already said that's not the point? I already told that it isn't matter of authentic or not several times. Do not cover other issues to that thing.
You blacklisted me or what.
EDIT:
You blacklisted me or what.
EDIT:
I already stated how hitsound can be effect gameplay, and I already state just stating that high/low can be too subjective. You are just ignoring me.those wrote:
Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:
lepidopodus wrote:
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys.
I agree. But ppy has said that he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name. He didn't choose it because he wanted it to be identical to "taiko no tatsujin".Sander-Don wrote:
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)
This is matter of allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not keeping it authentic or not. Did I said something like 'keep this cause this is authentic?' or something? And players are already use player-specific hitsound which is already far different from authentic TnT.Sakura wrote:
Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:
I've already stated this several times but you guys simply ignoring me. Who's trolling, seriously. Did you read my posts or not, honestly?
You guys are covering our other reasonings for that. It's really bad. Both of you.
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
After all, the Taiko mode is similar to Taiko no Tatsujin and is a Taiko no Tatsujin simulatorthose wrote:
he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name.
My brother was saying the same thing when I was starting to map in Stepmania, lol
About custom hitsounds, I'm pretty neutral since I usually play with "custom HS" in the DS games, but in this game I leave the taiko HS as they are. (In taikojiro to play normally I have to delete them, FAIL)
As long as we can notice a huge difference of pitch which are the equivalent of the D and K sounds, I don't mind. But forcing isn't really a good idea imo (I personally hate forcing skins in standard mode :/)
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.Sakura wrote:
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
So regardless of which campaign you select of, either the mappers or the players are forced to have something they don't like.
And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.
That can be really distracting to players generally. I already told you why. To simplify, players should react how hitsound sounds and every players have their own hitsounds to play and custom hitsounds can be really distracting for it. We think this is too much for player and that is why currently we are disallow it. I think we need to think about how players playing first, and I guess lots of Taiko mappers / players agree with that, at least I guess.Sakura wrote:
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
Whatever. BATs can intervene, but should respect experts opinions since BATs are not experts in here. Don't simply tip off our voice like that.
You can relate this to the million of suggestions about forcing your own skin for osu! standard as well, why not make an osu! standard rule that says that you cannot use custom skin then since players dont like them?Loctav wrote:
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.
Well, sure. Lepidon said it. We selected to enforce this scenario since most agree to it. If you choose enforce another scenario in osu!, well, okay.
I just mean the whole discussion about enforcing is not valid, neither in osu! Nor in taiko/CtB.
There need to be other reasons. And we brought them. Like you did in standard
I just mean the whole discussion about enforcing is not valid, neither in osu! Nor in taiko/CtB.
There need to be other reasons. And we brought them. Like you did in standard
@sakura: Again, generality... *sigh*
Let me ask, why it should be related? That is the matter of osu standard and this is the matter of Taiko. osu standard matters are not so related in this thread, I think, so those millions of voices, should we care about that?
----
This is getting ridiculous, we are trying to find a reasons to defend but why we should keep talking about other things like how people did in osu standard or how people did in TnT or how people did in piano or something? (At least those's 'accustomed to high/low pitch' was valuable, but others, meh.)
EDIT:
Whatever, for me, time-out.
This will be decided by outsiders as other important matter was done previously, as always. I'm quite sure lololol
Let me ask, why it should be related? That is the matter of osu standard and this is the matter of Taiko. osu standard matters are not so related in this thread, I think, so those millions of voices, should we care about that?
----
This is getting ridiculous, we are trying to find a reasons to defend but why we should keep talking about other things like how people did in osu standard or how people did in TnT or how people did in piano or something? (At least those's 'accustomed to high/low pitch' was valuable, but others, meh.)
EDIT:
Whatever, for me, time-out.
This will be decided by outsiders as other important matter was done previously, as always. I'm quite sure lololol
Alright. Time to bring in an example.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/110219
Why can maps like this be mapped accurately to Taiko?
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/110219
Why can maps like this be mapped accurately to Taiko?
Topic Starter
Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.
If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
@lepidopodus: This will not happen again. Not here.
Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.
If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
@lepidopodus: This will not happen again. Not here.
@those
Ok I am not an experient mapper but
at least when I am mapping I try to follow the song's drumline using the hitsounds
And it makes sense for me since it's a drum game
So, for what I can see, it IS bsed on hitsounds (and colors, duh)
Also, I play this game only because of the Taiko Mode
So, for me, this game IS Taiko TOO.
That's why we have the Taiko Community
And im my opinion (haters gonna hate), mapping without taiko default hitsounds isn't map for taiko.
It's okay if you map it for your own fun, but as someone (can't remember who) said before, force players to play it is just cruel.
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
Ok I am not an experient mapper but
at least when I am mapping I try to follow the song's drumline using the hitsounds
And it makes sense for me since it's a drum game
So, for what I can see, it IS bsed on hitsounds (and colors, duh)
Also, I play this game only because of the Taiko Mode
So, for me, this game IS Taiko TOO.
That's why we have the Taiko Community
And im my opinion (haters gonna hate), mapping without taiko default hitsounds isn't map for taiko.
It's okay if you map it for your own fun, but as someone (can't remember who) said before, force players to play it is just cruel.
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
So now that we have this, what's wrong with using a bass drum as don and a snare drum as kat?OnosakiHito wrote:
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
Topic Starter
@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
Before I sleep please remember this guys: we are talking about allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not disallowing any kind of authentic things or something. (I always told this towards Taiko guys but this time it's not, lol.)
If you guys criticize me for cling to authentic I think that might be valid, but most other Taiko guys here are really far from authentic TnT things, their experience, their mapping style or playing style, lots of things. And if we are talking about authentics we might say 'disallowing everything beside Taiko skin' but several Taiko players, even some in here are using other hitsound or their own hitsound. Currently It's really bad to criticizing Taiko community for being cling to authentic things cause it isn't valid anymore, we are already far from that, seriously.
If you guys criticize me for cling to authentic I think that might be valid, but most other Taiko guys here are really far from authentic TnT things, their experience, their mapping style or playing style, lots of things. And if we are talking about authentics we might say 'disallowing everything beside Taiko skin' but several Taiko players, even some in here are using other hitsound or their own hitsound. Currently It's really bad to criticizing Taiko community for being cling to authentic things cause it isn't valid anymore, we are already far from that, seriously.
And the answer is, "there is nothing wrong". It's only you who is against it because you fail to see that change is possibly an improvement, even though there's enough space to fix errors if needed.OnosakiHito wrote:
@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
Topic Starter
^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video. I'm done with you here. peppys quote says everything.
So, you must think there's something wrong with the music in the video. Lemme give it to you straight: there isn't.OnosakiHito wrote:
^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video.
I agree. But who is to say they won't sound just as good/better with alternate hitsounds?[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
I think this is crazy. If I want to make my own map of say Nighwish or other Guitar based songs, I can't use kick / snare? Its like saying that all the maps must be Oni cause that some people won't play anything less. This elitism is crazy. We have maps in osu! standard that are head and shoulders beyond what the EBA/OTO devs thought about. I would agree that the don be a low and kat be a high but there is no reason why they can't change if they see fit. If someone doesn't like that a map uses non-standard hitsounds, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PLAY IT. (capped for emphasis)
Topic Starter
^@: The reason for this has been given by lepidopodus allready before(and also some other people).
Please go some sites(1?) backwards, I'm sure you will find the answer.
Please go some sites(1?) backwards, I'm sure you will find the answer.
@GigaClon: We are opposing this cause we think that is really distracing for playing properly. Generally Taiko mappers agree at this as well so that is why we maintain this rule until now. (At least I assume.) I already describe how this is different from osu standard, not simply ignoring others.
Someone who is considered as 'with in Taiko community' or someone who knows this matter at least a bit can critisize me having elitism, but to be honest, even without any knowledge about this matter, do not simply called someone like that. Put everything in to elitism is also the way ignoring someone's opinion.
Also onosakihito, please be more reasonable.
(This keeps me awaken in this deep night lolol)
EDIT:
BTW, stop talking about unrelated things. This time we got 'elitism'. I'm expecting what would be the next.
EDIT2:
BTW I'm thinking about compromisation, cause this matter is worth to keep open to future discussion, I guess
Someone who is considered as 'with in Taiko community' or someone who knows this matter at least a bit can critisize me having elitism, but to be honest, even without any knowledge about this matter, do not simply called someone like that. Put everything in to elitism is also the way ignoring someone's opinion.
Also onosakihito, please be more reasonable.
(This keeps me awaken in this deep night lolol)
EDIT:
BTW, stop talking about unrelated things. This time we got 'elitism'. I'm expecting what would be the next.
EDIT2:
BTW I'm thinking about compromisation, cause this matter is worth to keep open to future discussion, I guess
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
Which game?MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!.
Is that not what modding is for? "I mapped my song this way because I interpret it this way with its current position in space and time, so I reject any suggestion that can make it better."MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?MMzz wrote:
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
Again, is this not modding is for?MMzz wrote:
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
So, can you say that there is zero chance of another hitsound set that is capable of achieving the same freestyle beat and flow?MMzz wrote:
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
I never said such a thing. I'm trying to point out that if people use custom hits it's just going to get WORSE.those wrote:
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?
Modding taiko, that's a funny joke.those wrote:
Again, is this not modding is for?
@Sakura, go get your taiko playcount up some so I can take what you are saying seriously.
Why don't you guys actually read my post before going off on how bad my opinion is because I think custom hits are stupid.
tl;dr:
^Exactly what I think.MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
+1[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
tl;dr:^Exactly what I think.MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
Well yeah it's not TnT but it's still Taiko mode in osu!.Sakura wrote:
Which game?
I really don't agree that this is the same argument but let's assume that it is the same. Even if it is the same, people participating in the discussion are different and people will be affected are different. Previous decisions in other community might be a good reference but we don't need to end this with the same conclusion.Sakura wrote:
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
At least in osu standard there were lots of mappers who want custom skinning enabled, but in this thread, even major Taiko mappers are not that supportive...
What i'm saying is, that if you dont want to use custom hitsounds in taiko you're free to not do so, but you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them.
If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?
If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?
ok, I don't know if you guys really get what I mean or even watch my comment before
I restate it here
1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!
I restate it here
1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!
The whole argument is pointless, because the suggested aren't even thinking about the points lepidon and MMzz bring along.
They generally overread them, pick context less stuff, comment them in a provoking way and refuse to understand the reasons behind this.
Freedom to all mappers, that's your purpose, Sakura. Go nuke all rules.
I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.
And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.
Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.
I should hinder myself to not get offensive, so far.
for gods sake, read and kill ALL ARGUMENTS given and not only turn the word in our mouth just to make them easier to shot down.
Sakuras stupid question of 'which game' is one of this provocative stupid behavior.
They generally overread them, pick context less stuff, comment them in a provoking way and refuse to understand the reasons behind this.
Freedom to all mappers, that's your purpose, Sakura. Go nuke all rules.
I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.
And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.
Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.
I should hinder myself to not get offensive, so far.
for gods sake, read and kill ALL ARGUMENTS given and not only turn the word in our mouth just to make them easier to shot down.
Sakuras stupid question of 'which game' is one of this provocative stupid behavior.
Then state it clearly.
Why is using custom hitsounds bad for this game?
Give us all a reason that I haven't fired back at yet.
Why is using custom hitsounds bad for this game?
Give us all a reason that I haven't fired back at yet.
Read the discussion of when you started suggesting this.
Quote them all, kill them all.
Then we proceed.
And also kill the arguments, that killed yours.
I refuse to repeat all of us for the 6th time already.
Quote them all, kill them all.
Then we proceed.
And also kill the arguments, that killed yours.
I refuse to repeat all of us for the 6th time already.
So you choose to speak like you're a god, too. You still haven't responded about the prepared piano.
In addition, for those interested, there has been no discussion about custom hitsounds until ztrot and I posted earlier.
In addition, for those interested, there has been no discussion about custom hitsounds until ztrot and I posted earlier.
I did. And others did too. Nothing more to add here. I don't act as a god, I just show you that you are not killing every argument and just picking the ones who aren't supposed to be the main ones, at all.
Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
It's not my favourite argument, but it is one that makes a lot of sense.Luna wrote:
Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
Let us now imagine a prepared piano. Instead of using screws to stick between the strings, you're now using a nail that is thicker in width, and is driven deeper into the piano. The performance will not sound the same, but some will argue that it may sound better than the piano prepared with screws. Conversely, some may say that it does not sound as great.
But if you compare that to what we have now, we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance.
It is about gameplay. The don and kat represents a low tone and a high tone, respectively. They still look the same (you have red/blue, we're not talking about creating taiko note skins yet), but the timbre of the don/kat is now changed. However, with my new rule suggestion, don will still represent the low tone, and kat will still represent the high tone. And I emphasize again: we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance. Why is that?Luna wrote:
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).