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Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)

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lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
In BPM change section, there is an example how we can avoid overlapping notes when dropping speed of notes. Yeah I mean lowering note speed gradually by setting HS one by one. (I hope you get it...) Well personally I don't like it but it can be considered as a mapping technique. But I want to quote that, please avoid putting complex streams using that technique. This technique may looks good, but not so great to reading notes.

----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
Yuzeyun
7,650 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
About the drumroll in a 1/3 song :

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/123616&m=1 I made a trick in this map to do so.

Let's make an example with 200 BPM, SV 1.0 (Examples with these numbers to get a better accuracy in numbers and mental calculus sdgadfsfa)

First, you have a 1/4 roll at 200 BPM, which gives 800 instead of 600. 600 1/1 in 1/4 gives 150 BPM. (Which is 0,75×the original BPM.)

Problem is, your scroll is not 200 anymore since you dropped by 0,25x, but you want to give the illusion it's STILL 200 BPM.

Scroll drops from 200 to 150 => 3/4. To go from 150 to 200, you'll need to use the INVERSE of 3/4 which is 4/3 or 1,3333333× the new bpm.

With SV 1,0 it will give 1,333333333
With SV 1,4 it will give 1,866666667
With SV 1,6 it will give 2,133333333
(You can still edit the osz file to get a better accuracy.)

You have one problem which is easily solvable, it's the measure bug, put 3/4 (if it's a 4/4 song)
If it's a 3/4 song... It's very hard. D: better put BPM ×3 and put time signature 9/4 LOL
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

lepidopodus wrote:

In BPM change section......
I do agree.

----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
I would like to do so, but since I have exams in one week I need to wait for now.
Yes, we will be still flexbile and the rules are going to be changeable even on approved status. But maybe that's something I need to talk to the BAT's and peppy soon.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
Hi I'd like to bring up my concerns to this rule
Custom Hitsound Volume
Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
Use the "Normal" audio sample set.

Why must you only use the normal audio set afaik TnT had custom hitsound sets and as long as the hitsounds are "DRUM" related I would see no problem with letting custom hitsounds being accepted as rankable.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

  1. Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
    You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
Well, we agree with the hitbursts part, that's just obvious. But why are we against custom hitsounds? Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options. In certain Taiko games there are missions where you have to use a specific hitsound set to pass a map. Is it not enough that dons should just generally be a lower tone than kats, which should have a higher tone?

For example, what is so bad about setting a custom hitsound set of kick/snare when the song you are mapping to is a Rock/Metal song?
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

those wrote:

OnosakiHito wrote:

  1. Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
    You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options.
Nuff said.
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@ztrot: What you mean is probably what those has mentioned? Because, the volumen I mentioned there has nothing to do with the custom-hitsounds. I will explain it it down below.
@those: Generelly they have no effect to taiko because the sounds are allways shown as kat/don as I know. Also they dosen't need to be changed in the editor since this would make the job for modding the maps just harder.

In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137

Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

@ztrot: In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
Yes it can!

OnosakiHito wrote:

But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
I didn't get this part at all.

OnoaskiHito wrote:

Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
What actually makes sense IS decided by the community.
I still deny to use custom hitsounds since the game mode is based in this two specific ones (the deep sounded Don and the high sounded Kat)
If you play real taikos,(those Japanese drums, u know) there are only these two noises you can produce.
It makes just no sense to put custom hitsounds to a mod, which is focused on it's very own hitsounds.
You can't just change this central gameplay element. It's too crucial that it must stay consistent.

And adding those custom hitsounds just ends that everyone goes deletes them and if you can even toggle to force-overwrite with your skin (like the cursor in standard), probably everyone would do that (unless the ones, who don't know about the option or the mapper self)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
lepidopodus gaved many times examples where modding didn't helped at all. We don't need to start this discussion a third or 4th time.

Sakura wrote:

It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.
That's why we had some problems with the osu! rules in the past and why it got into public dicussion, as I know. We don't need to make the same mistake in Taiko, that's why I, no... we consider the communitys voice. Especially because I'm not the Admin of Taiko, just a little announcer.

And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
I'm totally agains this, especially because in TnT Arcarde is no use of custom-sounds, to come back to your said authentic stuff, Sakura. This isn't a Taiko-RPG.
Most Taiko people are agains it and in this thread there wasn't even one objection. And to be honest, those people have at least to me a bigger value in this thread as osu! or ctb players, else this wouldn't make any sense here.

I understand exactly your point, even if you think I don't do. It makes sense to use a fitting sound for a certain song, but I will say it one more time:
This is Taiko. 太鼓, japanese for "Drum". It makes much more sense to use drum sounds instead any other custom things.

I'm done here.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
Tie this into mapping: "Oh, my map's good enough for bubble, so it's good enough for rank, and I'm going to reject suggestions that might make it better."
In general, that's like saying "Oh, something's good enough, I'm not going to even take a chance to try to make it better."
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.

I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.

I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
You guys dont use custom hitsounds, that's understandable, and you can continue doing so, just dont enforce it into other mappers

Also you guys got a taiko bat now *runs*
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Other mappers like osu mappers? Sakura, please, this isn't the osu mod at all.
The Taiko community in generelly decided not to use it, so you need to follow this rule even as osu/ctb-player, MAT or BAT, too. And not in the other way that our rules follow the other communitys/socities.
And just to clear something: Even if I would like to change it, I can't. Do it if you want, but it's not my fault when many people are going to complain about this... ^^

Yeah we know and we are thankfull for this.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Hitsounds in Taiko are THE central gameplay element, force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
It's easy enough to add a link to a skin with the desired hitsounds in the beatmap thread and set that skin as the requested skin in the editor.
matthewhln
408 posts
Joined March 2010
matthewhln
if you use taiko skin in taiko mode, custom hitsound will not affect anything

Also custom hitsound volume is assigned to an specific difficult (as it can be changed in time section tag)

So why is this bothering us?
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
Why do you talk like you're a god? Also, don't talk like you know osu! or CtB, since all you seem to know is Taiko. I feel really insulted. We don't have to come together to give YOU a solution. The only thing I've done is generalize the problem. More people have more Taiko experience than you think.

In addition, you haven't come up with anything besides "I know the community best (i.e. I am the community) and the community says custom hitsound are bad because they are."
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Those-dono, if you are only reading Onosakis stuff and generally ignore the others with given arguments (see Luna, me and matthewhln), then your arguments are invalid.

Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I know that you try to open the doors for more creativity, but this is Taiko.

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Even if you have some valid points, you can't make us nuke this rule due to the enormous impact of hitsounds to the game mode.

And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why. (especially lepidopodus, which some of the BATs tried to oppose, too, and it turned out that the revolutioneers are the one without a clue about the game mode self - and failed hard)

No offense, those and Sakura, but you brought no valid reason to nuke this rule, yet.
Despite us, who brought several ones to let it stay alive.

Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work. And especially, show us hitsounds that respect the Don-Kat sounding purpose, that is given by this game mode.
(there are none despite the one in the default osu skin)
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Luna wrote:

force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
And why is there a problem with that? You're having an approach object reach its receptor; it's just in a different shape. In addition, I seem to recall a beatmap with hearts instead of circles, and there was no problem playing that.

Loctav wrote:

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
I present to you the prepared piano.



Loctav wrote:

Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far
Read p/1542056

Loctav wrote:

but this is Taiko
You're saying Taiko isn't in need of more creativity. Why do you say that?

Loctav wrote:

And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why.
You say that as if you actually know more about how it works than the rest of us. Regardless of whether I feel insulted or not, the only thing you have against this is "We know better than you and we speak for everyone." That seems a little outrageous, considering the fact that we're the ones giving suggestions on possible improvement and you feel you're somehow in a position to reject all of it without giving valid reason.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
@1 This is not the point of playing a Piano at all. You know what I meant with this.

@2 Wow, you skipped the part with the "enormous impact to gameplay"

@3 Because Taiko consists of placing two colors of hitobjects in a row. Wow.

@4 We are not saying that ONLY. The point it, that this has happened a lot of times already (I should summon lepidopodus) and the outturn was ALWAYS the same.
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes. We are not conservative and try to improve this, too, but THIS is really not required in my opinion.

I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
Just because you can't relate to playing a prepared piano, it doesn't mean that isn't the point of a piano. The piano has gone through hundreds and hundreds of years of changes and it just so happens that the post-modern era includes the prepared piano as an instrument.

I don't know how much you're really into music or rhythm, but whenever you hear a nice beat and you try to play along with it with whatever's on your desk, you would generally try to find a lower tone (e.g. tapping your textbook) to sound the bass (this is represented by don in Taiko), and a higher tone to sound, well, the higher tone. This is why music can be created with just a bass and snare drum, or the flipside of a bucket. As long as you have something to present both of the tones that don/kat currently represent, why is there a problem?

In addition, without any trying, there won't be any mess or improvement. But since we already know how to "fix" the "possible mess" (just revert to this rule), why can't we strive for improvement? Why has osu! allowed different hitsounds, if the default hitsounds were intended to be used since they are included?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Well, I know about how a rhythm is based and that there needs to be a bass tone and a higher tone. Whatsoever, osu!standard allowed custom hitsounds because they have almost no impact to the gameplay itself (okay, if you place them wrong, they may be VERY distracting, but they don't affect the gameplay SELF (clicking circles is regardless of what noise they make)

but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

too high variety between the hitsoundings
I see I'm starting to get to you.
In osu! modding, there are many people to know which hitsounds fit the song and which do not. I'm sure Taiko mods are capable enough to know which hitsounds are appropriate and which ones are not. We just haven't had any opportunity to do it yet. I propose a change to this rule such that:

Custom hitbursts are not allowed. Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.

And if this goes awry, we'll revert. How's that?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Loctav wrote:

but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, the notes will still look red and blue, i don't see why this is bothering you so much, plus it's not like we would add guitar hitsounds but more like other possible drum hitsounds, because there are drum sounds in the world that arent just the default taiko ones.

Also why do you think we would add more than 2 hitsounds to Taiko?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We never said something about "more than 2 hitsounds".
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.

It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction. You can get used to it, but you can also get used to hidden reverse arrows. Still it's considered as unrankable.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Well, it's not that simple than you guys thought.

We all agree that hitsound is much more important in Taiko while it's not in osu standard. In Taiko we need to distinguish two sounds.

What we will hit will be decided by the colour of note, at least mostly. But you does not always hit the right keys unless you are a god-like player. How do Taiko players know that they hit their notes properly? And if they failed to hit properly, how do they decide which way to hit keys with not breaking combos or at least minimize lose of scores? This is the matter of hitsound cause hitsound is the result of how you actually hit.

When you hit the key, hitsound sounds. Taiko players hear it and react. This reaction should be happening in really short time. Since we need to distinguish sounds, even subtle change can be really irritating. (Not like osu standard. osu standard players only need to distinguish somehthing sounds or not.)

So that is why Taiko mappers and players here agree to not to enable custom hitsound. It isn't matter of authneticity cause lots of players actually use their custom hitsound, far from TnT thing. Yup, we oppose to map-specific custom hitsound but we don't care about player-specific custom hit sound.

Well we might reconsider when there is options like 'ignore map-specific custom hitsound' or something. Anyway, does custom hitsound works systematically? I never tried it before.

And please, do not cover characteristics by generality of rhythm games. It always happened since lots of MATs and BATs.... Well, you know what I mean.

(BTW, who's got BAT'ed while I was away?)
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

those wrote:

Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.

And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)

Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future. Now you Taiko guys might know why I always so aggressive about these kind of matter.

EDIT:

Sakura wrote:

[Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, (...)
I explained why this is so irritating to Taiko players in previous post. I guess loctav already told similar thing.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

lepidopodus wrote:

those wrote:

Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.

And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)

Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future.
You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,334 posts
Joined August 2009
aabc271
So, I'm here to post some of my thoughts about the custom taiko hitsounds ~

I understand that you guys want to use other hitsounds for some maps because they fit well
For me, I don't oppose that because they can further improve the map, as you guys said

However, I think the default hitsounds should not be overwritten, even if the new hitsounds fit well
Since we shouldn't force all players to use that particular type of hitsounds
Some players are just used to the default hitsounds, and won't change to other hitsounds even they fit
Mostly because they feel less comfortable when playing with less-familiar hitsounds
I myself is one of them. I just prefer using default hitsounds as I use them since I played taiko in 2008

And yes, as Ono and loctav said, it'll be good to keep the default hitsounds as this is Taiko mode.
Taiko mode should include Taiko hitsounds and so I think the default hitsounds should be the don kat sounds

Maybe you guys can just include a dl link of the new hitsounds in the map description so that players who want to and try new hitsounds too ?
I think this can make both sides happy as the default hisounds will not be overwritten in this way, and new hitsounds can be used for those who want to ~

Any thoughts ? :3
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@those
Since we are always criticized like 'why you authentic authentic authentic blahblah', we already got quite far from that. That is why I stressed that. And you are already criticizing us like 'why you always want to keep authentic blahblahbalh' or something. It's true, right?

Anyway let's get to the point. That reaction should be done only in a few ms. (Seriously, the notes we hit are not that far away.) Since that high/low things are not so objective (if it is objective thing, you can't use various hitsound, seriously. And actually How people accustomed to some specific hitsound is different, so we can't make limits of how high or low should hitounds be. Subjectively, it is possible, though.) being accustomed to every different maps is really a big matter to players.

And why I aways be aggressive MATs or BATs: even if they are Taiko players, in Taiko community they don't have much privilege to decide things as in osu standard mapping community since they lacks experience or so, but they usually pretend to they can do that. huh.

BTW the time isn't so good for me, lolol. Quite late in here.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

those wrote:

You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.
You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.

Just wait for the other people who could come into this thread.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.
The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
No. Start reading our posts and my sentences in #lounge. It's more than "its good enough". Thanks
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

those wrote:

The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?
Being conservative isn't evil and changes does not lead to good future always. That is why we should cautious. If you want change something you need to state why changes should be done and check your idea get enough support, but generally you are just criticizing onosakihito's attitude.

This rule already have changes, yeah I'm telling you about big note in the end of stream. That changes have done cause we think there is a consensus, and we think it is ok and there is enough valid reasons. But about this, no consensus yet, not so solid reasons yet. Since enabling this possibly irritates lots of players we need to be more cautious but you are kinda... nagging.

EDIT:
I've said that I don't care if there is option like 'ignoring map-specific hitsound' or something like that, then I don't care. But enabling map-specific hitsound without giving a choice, then I think that is bad. Since we don't have any kind of system now, I oppose map-specific hitsound.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Well.
Allow custom hitsounds would change the way of mapping songs
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors, as Loctav said.
I can't really think of mapping with new hitsounds... I guess the patterns would be VERY different just to follow the way of hearing the notes etc etc
and.. maybe if ~someone~ dislikes this new hitsounds
this one will probably delete/disable them
and then the map will not be the same with default hitsounds because it was mapped with others (get what I meant to say?)
So, or you play with custom or you don't play because the map turned SHIT

Taiko is Taiko.
inb4 the piano example again..
So... it's the same of electronic musical keyboards, you have a bunch of new sounds but it can't reproduce a piano sound perfectly, and it's not a piano itself. So, imo, Taiko must be always Taiko
That's my opinion.

Sorry for my bad english.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: Well at least I got your reasons, thanks.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@those: Also you do it again. No response to lepidopodus post at all because there are probably points you can't deny, else you would allready contar to this.

And lepidopodus said right now what I told you before too: Find solid reasons at least please. Else there will be no changes yet, especially because - as allready said before (twice and more) - in generel community is agains this and because Taiko people have a higher value here.

To be honest that's too much right now. If there is coming any other post that can be markt as spam because of sensless speach, it will be deleted. We really don't need to make a circle of infinity. Thank you.

@[Luanny PhNyx]: I did understand you too. Thanks.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors
Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.

those wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Onosakihito, relax? Well I already starting to getting aggressive and it is enough to have one aggressive Taiko guy in here.

Kinda hard to discuss about does really people get irritated when hitsound changes, it is kinda matter of personal experience or characteristics or something. We might talk about how players play Taiko here, but it can be different with actual practicing. That is why we need consensus first, and we end up put more value to some guys who knows Taiko well.

But I guess general opinion is against about that, and even experts are not support that.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Okay, I only skimmed through the subject so excuse me if I may be off-topic. But from what I'm seeing, this is a discussion on forcing custom taiko hit-sounds in beatmap set?
I would like to quote some things here;

MMzz wrote:

Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
This is very true, as I use custom hitsounds sometimes for taiko, (When I'm playing metal songs and stuff, but never when I'm playing authentic or for ranking) . But like he said, forcing it in a mapset would just be cruel.
If they are going to add this rule, at least allow a toggle in the skins options "use beatmap's taiko hitsounds" or something.

Loctav wrote:

We are simulating and INSTRUMENT
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)

I know we'll just get shot down because of the famous quote, "This is osu!, not taiko", but still try to hear us out.
That's all I got to say, I gave up on this thread quite some time ago. orz
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

peppy wrote:

Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Looks like a good idea to me. p/1278182
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@^: Hey I guess you are already said that's not the point? I already told that it isn't matter of authentic or not several times. Do not cover other issues to that thing.

You blacklisted me or what.

EDIT:

those wrote:

Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
I already stated how hitsound can be effect gameplay, and I already state just stating that high/low can be too subjective. You are just ignoring me.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 2 times in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:

lepidopodus wrote:

I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Sander-Don wrote:

I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)
I agree. But ppy has said that he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name. He didn't choose it because he wanted it to be identical to "taiko no tatsujin".
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura wrote:

Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:
This is matter of allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not keeping it authentic or not. Did I said something like 'keep this cause this is authentic?' or something? And players are already use player-specific hitsound which is already far different from authentic TnT.

I've already stated this several times but you guys simply ignoring me. Who's trolling, seriously. Did you read my posts or not, honestly?

You guys are covering our other reasonings for that. It's really bad. Both of you.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
Yuzeyun
7,650 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

those wrote:

he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name.
After all, the Taiko mode is similar to Taiko no Tatsujin and is a Taiko no Tatsujin simulator
My brother was saying the same thing when I was starting to map in Stepmania, lol

About custom hitsounds, I'm pretty neutral since I usually play with "custom HS" in the DS games, but in this game I leave the taiko HS as they are. (In taikojiro to play normally I have to delete them, FAIL)

As long as we can notice a huge difference of pitch which are the equivalent of the D and K sounds, I don't mind. But forcing isn't really a good idea imo (I personally hate forcing skins in standard mode :/)
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Sakura wrote:

If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.
So regardless of which campaign you select of, either the mappers or the players are forced to have something they don't like.
And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura wrote:

If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
That can be really distracting to players generally. I already told you why. To simplify, players should react how hitsound sounds and every players have their own hitsounds to play and custom hitsounds can be really distracting for it. We think this is too much for player and that is why currently we are disallow it. I think we need to think about how players playing first, and I guess lots of Taiko mappers / players agree with that, at least I guess.

Whatever. BATs can intervene, but should respect experts opinions since BATs are not experts in here. Don't simply tip off our voice like that.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Loctav wrote:

The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.
You can relate this to the million of suggestions about forcing your own skin for osu! standard as well, why not make an osu! standard rule that says that you cannot use custom skin then since players dont like them?
Last edited by Sakura , edited 1 time in total.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Well, sure. Lepidon said it. We selected to enforce this scenario since most agree to it. If you choose enforce another scenario in osu!, well, okay.
I just mean the whole discussion about enforcing is not valid, neither in osu! Nor in taiko/CtB.
There need to be other reasons. And we brought them. Like you did in standard
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@sakura: Again, generality... *sigh*

Let me ask, why it should be related? That is the matter of osu standard and this is the matter of Taiko. osu standard matters are not so related in this thread, I think, so those millions of voices, should we care about that?

----
This is getting ridiculous, we are trying to find a reasons to defend but why we should keep talking about other things like how people did in osu standard or how people did in TnT or how people did in piano or something? (At least those's 'accustomed to high/low pitch' was valuable, but others, meh.)

EDIT:
Whatever, for me, time-out.
This will be decided by outsiders as other important matter was done previously, as always. I'm quite sure lololol
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 2 times in total.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Alright. Time to bring in an example.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/110219

Why can maps like this be mapped accurately to Taiko?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.

If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.

@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
@lepidopodus: This will not happen again. Not here.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
@those
Ok I am not an experient mapper but
at least when I am mapping I try to follow the song's drumline using the hitsounds
And it makes sense for me since it's a drum game
So, for what I can see, it IS bsed on hitsounds (and colors, duh)

Also, I play this game only because of the Taiko Mode
So, for me, this game IS Taiko TOO.
That's why we have the Taiko Community
And im my opinion (haters gonna hate), mapping without taiko default hitsounds isn't map for taiko.
It's okay if you map it for your own fun, but as someone (can't remember who) said before, force players to play it is just cruel.

Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
So now that we have this, what's wrong with using a bass drum as don and a snare drum as kat?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Before I sleep please remember this guys: we are talking about allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not disallowing any kind of authentic things or something. (I always told this towards Taiko guys but this time it's not, lol.)

If you guys criticize me for cling to authentic I think that might be valid, but most other Taiko guys here are really far from authentic TnT things, their experience, their mapping style or playing style, lots of things. And if we are talking about authentics we might say 'disallowing everything beside Taiko skin' but several Taiko players, even some in here are using other hitsound or their own hitsound. Currently It's really bad to criticizing Taiko community for being cling to authentic things cause it isn't valid anymore, we are already far from that, seriously.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
And the answer is, "there is nothing wrong". It's only you who is against it because you fail to see that change is possibly an improvement, even though there's enough space to fix errors if needed.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video. I'm done with you here. peppys quote says everything.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video.
So, you must think there's something wrong with the music in the video. Lemme give it to you straight: there isn't.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
I agree. But who is to say they won't sound just as good/better with alternate hitsounds?
GigaClon
168 posts
Joined September 2011
GigaClon
I think this is crazy. If I want to make my own map of say Nighwish or other Guitar based songs, I can't use kick / snare? Its like saying that all the maps must be Oni cause that some people won't play anything less. This elitism is crazy. We have maps in osu! standard that are head and shoulders beyond what the EBA/OTO devs thought about. I would agree that the don be a low and kat be a high but there is no reason why they can't change if they see fit. If someone doesn't like that a map uses non-standard hitsounds, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PLAY IT. (capped for emphasis)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
^@: The reason for this has been given by lepidopodus allready before(and also some other people).
Please go some sites(1?) backwards, I'm sure you will find the answer.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@GigaClon: We are opposing this cause we think that is really distracing for playing properly. Generally Taiko mappers agree at this as well so that is why we maintain this rule until now. (At least I assume.) I already describe how this is different from osu standard, not simply ignoring others.

Someone who is considered as 'with in Taiko community' or someone who knows this matter at least a bit can critisize me having elitism, but to be honest, even without any knowledge about this matter, do not simply called someone like that. Put everything in to elitism is also the way ignoring someone's opinion.

Also onosakihito, please be more reasonable.

(This keeps me awaken in this deep night lolol)

EDIT:
BTW, stop talking about unrelated things. This time we got 'elitism'. I'm expecting what would be the next.

EDIT2:
BTW I'm thinking about compromisation, cause this matter is worth to keep open to future discussion, I guess
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?

Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )

For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
Which game?

peppy wrote:

Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!.
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
Is that not what modding is for? "I mapped my song this way because I interpret it this way with its current position in space and time, so I reject any suggestion that can make it better."

MMzz wrote:

Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?

MMzz wrote:

For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
Again, is this not modding is for?

MMzz wrote:

At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
So, can you say that there is zero chance of another hitsound set that is capable of achieving the same freestyle beat and flow?
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

those wrote:

And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?
I never said such a thing. I'm trying to point out that if people use custom hits it's just going to get WORSE.

those wrote:

Again, is this not modding is for?
Modding taiko, that's a funny joke.


@Sakura, go get your taiko playcount up some so I can take what you are saying seriously.


Why don't you guys actually read my post before going off on how bad my opinion is because I think custom hits are stupid.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
tl;dr:

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
^Exactly what I think.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

tl;dr:

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
^Exactly what I think.
+1
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura wrote:

Which game?
Well yeah it's not TnT but it's still Taiko mode in osu!.

Sakura wrote:

The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
I really don't agree that this is the same argument but let's assume that it is the same. Even if it is the same, people participating in the discussion are different and people will be affected are different. Previous decisions in other community might be a good reference but we don't need to end this with the same conclusion.

At least in osu standard there were lots of mappers who want custom skinning enabled, but in this thread, even major Taiko mappers are not that supportive...
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
What i'm saying is, that if you dont want to use custom hitsounds in taiko you're free to not do so, but you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them.

If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?
matthewhln
408 posts
Joined March 2010
matthewhln
ok, I don't know if you guys really get what I mean or even watch my comment before

I restate it here

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself

In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
The whole argument is pointless, because the suggested aren't even thinking about the points lepidon and MMzz bring along.
They generally overread them, pick context less stuff, comment them in a provoking way and refuse to understand the reasons behind this.
Freedom to all mappers, that's your purpose, Sakura. Go nuke all rules.


I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.
And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.

Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.

I should hinder myself to not get offensive, so far.

for gods sake, read and kill ALL ARGUMENTS given and not only turn the word in our mouth just to make them easier to shot down.

Sakuras stupid question of 'which game' is one of this provocative stupid behavior.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Then state it clearly.
Why is using custom hitsounds bad for this game?

Give us all a reason that I haven't fired back at yet.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Read the discussion of when you started suggesting this.
Quote them all, kill them all.
Then we proceed.
And also kill the arguments, that killed yours.
I refuse to repeat all of us for the 6th time already.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those
So you choose to speak like you're a god, too. You still haven't responded about the prepared piano.

In addition, for those interested, there has been no discussion about custom hitsounds until ztrot and I posted earlier.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I did. And others did too. Nothing more to add here. I don't act as a god, I just show you that you are not killing every argument and just picking the ones who aren't supposed to be the main ones, at all.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Luna wrote:

Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
It's not my favourite argument, but it is one that makes a lot of sense.

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.

Let us now imagine a prepared piano. Instead of using screws to stick between the strings, you're now using a nail that is thicker in width, and is driven deeper into the piano. The performance will not sound the same, but some will argue that it may sound better than the piano prepared with screws. Conversely, some may say that it does not sound as great.

But if you compare that to what we have now, we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance.

Luna wrote:

Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
It is about gameplay. The don and kat represents a low tone and a high tone, respectively. They still look the same (you have red/blue, we're not talking about creating taiko note skins yet), but the timbre of the don/kat is now changed. However, with my new rule suggestion, don will still represent the low tone, and kat will still represent the high tone. And I emphasize again: we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance. Why is that?
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.

That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.
There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same

those wrote:

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
EXACTLY.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Luna wrote:

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?

Luna wrote:

That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.
You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.

Luna wrote:

There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO
There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same
We already agreed on this.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

those wrote:

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
EXACTLY.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.
Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

I can't argue about anything right now. /learning
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

those wrote:

Luna wrote:

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
I really don't want to learn how to play again
Inb4 "Its not learn again, it is accustomed."
For me it is.
Why do you want to force it?
I'm sure at least 90% of us doesn't want it
Sounds like you (and some other people) want it just to turn your maps better for YOU (I may be wrong but that's what I can see)
So please, DO IT, but don't rank it, please.
Do it, share with everyone on #taiko
Some will have lots of fun playing it and some will not. Deal with it.
Turn it rankable doesn't make sense.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

those wrote:

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.

those wrote:

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.

those wrote:

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.
With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.

those wrote:

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.

those wrote:

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.

As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.

We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,864 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@Luanny:
SPOILER

OnosakiHito wrote:

Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.

If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.

Nothing will happen before I/we don't get valid reasons or the community agrees itself to it.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
Hi matthewhln. Excuse us for ignoring you.

matthewhln wrote:

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".

matthewhln wrote:

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
We don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.

matthewhln wrote:

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
Yes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.

matthewhln wrote:

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?

OnosakiHito wrote:

2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?
That's like asking me why I didn't know how to use calculus when I was 5. It was available at an earlier point in my life, but I didn't figure its importance to me until now.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
As interesting as this all is I've been reading that last few pages I can see one thing that does really need to be addressed and that is
"if a map is going to have custom hitsounds for a taiko diff they must follow a set example and must be drum related." As for forcing taiko only sounds that rule could never hold up because you are basing this rule off a skin and not something that comes with osu as stock so really there isn't much more to discuss your only wasting time with this instead lets all go be productive or detail some other things that need to be sorted out in taiko rules.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
ztrot missed the point. You lost.
Reread the last post of me and lepidon. Then retry. Thanks.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
your point doesn't make sense?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Your neither. We aren't basing our arguments on a specific skin.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.
Compare to a flight simulator game that requires you to complete a course with a certain choice of aircraft. It's not a "B-17 Flying Fortress Simulator Game", for example, it's a flight simulator game.


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.
You mean by you, right? You have no audio evidence to back up your claim that taiko hitsounds are always better (and neither do I proving otherwise, so this point is going nowhere).


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.
With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.
So you're forced to deal with that the mapper thinks is appropriate. Then you gotta get your map to +8, pass through many, many mods, get a MAT bubble, and pass through the BAT to get it ranked. If it's actually inappropriate somebody will have pointed it out, more than likely.


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.
Mappers should not be limited to the four hitsounds of your current dkDK to express their own musical interpretation.


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.
Lack of examples. Empty assumption here.


Loctav wrote:

As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.

We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.
I was not about to compare this to standard mode, but there's no way I cannot.
According to you, players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own skin they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the objects (circles, sliders, spinners) according to the song. Practically there exists no skin, that serves better skin elements [as the default skin] to a mapset.

OnosakiHito wrote:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Looks like you've been highlighting the wrong words of ppy, OnosakiHito.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
wait so your saying don't add custom sounds and make players make changes to there skin? I'm pretty sure hitsounds are for a mapper to decide
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,498 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.

If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so. (extreme, sarcastic example, don't reuse for further argumentation)

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.

Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)

@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.

and well:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
Mid-ground. Maps are allowed custom samples PROVIDED they are drum related if a mapper whats to add customs that is his choice not ours.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.
Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.

Loctav wrote:

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.
We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?
Also, though authentic DONKAT (let's refer to these as DONKAT) for the purpose of this discussion, may be fitting, who is to say another set won't be more or less fitting? Is it not up to the mapper to decide and up to mods to suggest with reasons otherwise?

Loctav wrote:

Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)
If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).

Loctav wrote:

@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.
But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.
Aplus_old
34 posts
Joined July 2010
Aplus_old
Who gives a shit, its 1 map, if you don't want to play a map with fucking custom sounds then don't play the map... easy as that... pussies.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

I can't argue about anything right now. /learning
1. Nope i haven't missed it, in fact he has always brought up good points that YOU guys are ignoring.

2. Even tho this question is towards those i'll answer it: Just because something is allowed doesn't mean people will use it, as i stated earlier you guys are free to do whatever you want with what your maps, rules only state what people arent allowed to do.

Anyways what i really want is a clear reason why the hitsounds cannot be customized that follows the following:

It is not a personal preference: i.e. I only like the Taiko hitsounds. I cannot play without Taiko hitsounds.

Allowing it breaks the game: i.e glitches, crashes, etc.

Allowing it makes it unreadable: i.e. Cannot see the colors of the notes, notes become invisible (this could be under glitches).

It is not TnT / Authentic related: i.e. Those are the Taiko sounds, that's how it works in TnT, it stops being Taiko without those sounds (fwiw some taiko games have other hitsounds as selectable options)

If you think you can cover a reason that follows these i don't see this rule serving any purpose.

Edit: Also i didnt read ztrot's post earlier, but i do agree with that, in fact is what i've been proposing from the very beginning.
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