I think finishes in streams which are still do-able (in this case, ..ooX and ...xxO is the easiest imo) is okay. You get full points just by pressing both sides without having to get the thick yellow border mark though. >_>
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Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)
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same.MMzz wrote:
This is a taiko drum.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
not permitting ...oO is like forcing a drummer to not use a Kick Drum after a normal tom or a Crash after some Hat..
Not a drum kit.
Carry-on
Real Taiko drummers can really do those pattern... and a game's map not an art?
Restrict them to Harder{Harder[Harder(Harder)]} difficulties?
You can go ahead and make a map with a 1/4 finisher, but it won't get ranked.
Feel free to make them unsubmitted.
CARRY-ON
Feel free to make them unsubmitted.
CARRY-ON
Finishers in streams :
ddddddddddK d
>Esc Retry. Nuff said.
At low BPMs I wouldn't mind (As low as people could play the ddddddd part with 1 finger) but really it's nonsense. Doing this increases the possibility of non-FCing (though it CAN be hit with 1 side) but the purpose of the finisher is to be hit by both sides. imo a Taiko map should be playable with keyboard AND drum so no, at high speeds (140+)
At 120-140... Avoid.
Below 120 it's possible but reasons should be CLEAR ENOUGH.
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
ddddddddddK d
>Esc Retry. Nuff said.
At low BPMs I wouldn't mind (As low as people could play the ddddddd part with 1 finger) but really it's nonsense. Doing this increases the possibility of non-FCing (though it CAN be hit with 1 side) but the purpose of the finisher is to be hit by both sides. imo a Taiko map should be playable with keyboard AND drum so no, at high speeds (140+)
At 120-140... Avoid.
Below 120 it's possible but reasons should be CLEAR ENOUGH.
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider._Gezo_ wrote:
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
It was about ticks, but yeah that thing might be calculated with bounds (500 - 1000 BPM 1/1 for ticks ?)wmfchris wrote:
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider._Gezo_ wrote:
Off-Finisher : The Drumrolls should not be used within this range of BPM : 100-125 (1/8s) but CAN be used in 65-100. I tried to play some LOW SPEED songs (in this range) and they can be hit easily.
I saw that while playing a slow map... Forgot which one tho. orz.
The only valid points are that they don't play well and they are hard to read due to taiko's note system (you don't read individual notes, you read the patterns, which is why a constant stream of notes in taiko is a bad thing).
if anything drums are easier than keyboard.
This is 105 BPM, for example, and filled to the brim with 32nd notes.
Just saying it depends on the music. It's a bad idea to ban drumrolls because of a glitch/feature in the game. If need be you can always trick the game into doing what you want so that you make the best map you can.
if anything drums are easier than keyboard.
dubstep can be considered 70 bpm, and at that bpm there would be a lot of 1/8. Of course that would mean that 1/4 at 140 BPM would fit equally.wmfchris wrote:
Heavily depends on songs, the reason for no 1/8 sliders because there're no relavent rhythm in the music, and I don't see why even slower songs would contain 1/8s. If they really exist there's no problem with the 1/8 slider.
This is 105 BPM, for example, and filled to the brim with 32nd notes.
Just saying it depends on the music. It's a bad idea to ban drumrolls because of a glitch/feature in the game. If need be you can always trick the game into doing what you want so that you make the best map you can.
(Tick rates - drumroll tick rate are gameplay stuffs and is clearly written that it will not be changed in this post if I remmber it correctly.)
Drumrolls allows a free stream solo (i.e. 1/4 2 beats slider can be kkdkkdkdk or ddddddddd) that does not goes well for me. If there's any chance to use a slider with less drum ticks, individual notes work better, so I don't see the reason to make slower sliders.
For the faster ones, "slider" is under suggestions are not a must, it depends on songs.
Drumrolls allows a free stream solo (i.e. 1/4 2 beats slider can be kkdkkdkdk or ddddddddd) that does not goes well for me. If there's any chance to use a slider with less drum ticks, individual notes work better, so I don't see the reason to make slower sliders.
For the faster ones, "slider" is under suggestions are not a must, it depends on songs.
Topic Starter
[04.28., 10:42] ,,BPM Changes" section has been added into Guidelines again - OnosakiHito
[04.28., 10:42] ,,Overlapping notes" section has been deleted from rules again due to less discussion - OnosakiHito
Ver. 1.0.3 avaible.
[04.28., 10:42] ,,Overlapping notes" section has been deleted from rules again due to less discussion - OnosakiHito
Ver. 1.0.3 avaible.
Finish-notes
There will be no other permissions for now as the one we have allready in the rules.
ooooxxxxO <- This notes can be played and dosen't interupt player to fc a map at all. This has just something to with experience, not unplaybility. It is playable and can be even played on drum. ooooooooO is barely playable, that's why it is not permitted.
Also having ooX is not recommendet at all because this can be quickly abused by some mappers. We can mod it away, but sometimes it will happen that some of these maps would be accidentally ranked.
And don't forget: It was allready hard enough to get the agreement of the community to use finishes on 9-plet long streams, so we don't need to force our luck too much to have more exeptions.
BPM Changes / Overlaping notes
This guideline/rule is still not clear enough, so I will rewrite it when I have time.
wmf's and Loctav's description has been deleted for now. That what they wrote down into the Rules:
Overlapping notes
Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.
Notes must not overlap due to slider velocity changes (green lines). BPM changes (red lines) are excluded from this rule.
I'm agains that for now. I don't say this should be fully permited, but there should be some gray-zones like when the song has a fitting part for this.
I will give two examples:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/35211 - [Taiko Oni] @ 02:20:051 - This will be hard to fc on the first try, but after some it is totally possible and playable.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/144429 - [Taikosaki] @ 02:00:370 - You can see the slider is overlaps the big KAT, but since it is not a small note, you can see when you need to hit it.
I think it is clear enough what I want to show and say with those examples.
Discuss.
I'll say this loud and clear: I wholeheartedly disapprove of the use of finishes on 1/4 (and even 1/3) streams whatever the reason may be. It never feels good to play.
I'm also generally against the use of SV changes in general because I see a plethora of foul examples where it has been handled poorly (this includes several TnT authentic maps, the most outrageous example being EkiBEN2000) so if SV change there is, it should firstly be a slight change, and shouldn't overlap notes in any way. BPM changes being obviously exempted from this.
I'm also generally against the use of SV changes in general because I see a plethora of foul examples where it has been handled poorly (this includes several TnT authentic maps, the most outrageous example being EkiBEN2000) so if SV change there is, it should firstly be a slight change, and shouldn't overlap notes in any way. BPM changes being obviously exempted from this.
- we'll still need a top limit for the playing time for ranked diff.
- I'm firm on the overlapped issue because all we are talking about is the readability in the first sight. Notes are supposed to be clearly shown at all time.
- I'm firm on the overlapped issue because all we are talking about is the readability in the first sight. Notes are supposed to be clearly shown at all time.
About finishers, I will say it once and for all : DON'T SPAM THEM. It confuses the player and play very terrible (I played one ranked map spamming finishers, it's almost unreadable.)
Fix'd_Gezo_ wrote:
About finishers on 1/4, I will say it once and for all : DON'TSPAMUSE THEM.
ooO=ooX
they have the same problems associated with them and should just be banned on all BPMs. There are enough taiko players who don't like finishes. But I think those taiko players are being stupid. If the map has a slow BPM the finishes can be weeded out in the modding process if need be, and the exception will be made there.
they have the same problems associated with them and should just be banned on all BPMs. There are enough taiko players who don't like finishes. But I think those taiko players are being stupid. If the map has a slow BPM the finishes can be weeded out in the modding process if need be, and the exception will be made there.
I think finishes are okay for 1/3, so long as it isn't like dD or kK, but dK and kD play smoothly for me and never caused issues.
Personally I love finishes, I just wish they didn't give you double points because you only get them if you hit both notes exactly at the same time.
Personally I love finishes, I just wish they didn't give you double points because you only get them if you hit both notes exactly at the same time.
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito wrote:
- Finish notes
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
Small fix. You missed a word hereOnosakiHito wrote:
OnosakiHito wrote:
- Finish notes
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may be allowed under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
People may badly hit them (like a BIIIG DESYNC) :V
I think we should ALSO think about 1/1 streaming before saying if that kind of stream should or should not be banned from ranking.
I can hit ooooooooO up to 230 1/4 BPM (Which is 920 1/1) but some players can't play these easily.
As long as it's not overused (Climax stuff) I'd say yes, if the song is not too fast (Max. 900 1/1 streams) and if the song is faster than 225 BPM (rare cases tho), at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note, because fingers may fail to hit the finisher properly.
I'd ban finishers on 1/3 divisors tho (Not 1/3 themselves)
1/3 is fine. It doesn't cover the previous note like 1/4 does.
I agree with this idea, and in the musical perspective that's reasonable, too._Gezo_ wrote:
at least 1 beat between the finisher and the next note
Topic Starter
@Gezo: We could say that it's not allowed to use it in really fast BPMs and etc.m but it's not needed here. This can be modded away by people. We also don't want to see that people spam them.
I guess we should add one more time that they may use 1/4 finishes just if there is a clearly hearable sound for this.
Edit:
@chris: Maybe I misunderstand it right now, but with "musical" you mean there is rarely for example ooooooooX ? Because this wouldn't be right then since my genres I map have many of those cases.
Hey, we have now a japanese translation, too. Thank's to Suzully!
[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito
[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - t/82259 - arien666
=================== Check the changes ====================
I guess we should add one more time that they may use 1/4 finishes just if there is a clearly hearable sound for this.
Edit:
- Finish notes
Finish notes must not be in the middle or at the beginning in a 1/4 or above stream.
At the end, finish streams may be allowed if there is a reasonable sound for it under following pattern constellations:
xxxxxxxxO, xxxxooooX, xxooxxooX
@chris: Maybe I misunderstand it right now, but with "musical" you mean there is rarely for example ooooooooX ? Because this wouldn't be right then since my genres I map have many of those cases.
Hey, we have now a japanese translation, too. Thank's to Suzully!
[Main thread]
English - t/72569 - OnosakiHito
[Translations]
中国(chinese) - t/80152 - wmfchris
日本(japanese) - t/73281 - Suzully
한국어(korean) - t/82259 - arien666
=================== Check the changes ====================
My bad, but I've been really busy..... Ok I admit, I'm lazy. I'll do that when I have time but I don't care if you get someone before I finish it. (Hmm, should I start to poke someone else?)OnosakiHito wrote:
한국어(korean) - XXX - ???
EDIT:
and 1/3 finish is fine.
EDIT2:
arken might do that.
Quite fast, huh? Good job anyway, arken.
Topic Starter
당신을 감사하십시오! That was really fast.
Got now 3 translations from 3 MAT's. lol
Got now 3 translations from 3 MAT's. lol
And suddenly the overlap rule is a rule-containg guideline again. Whyever. Was this reverse step discussed? I doubt that. Geeez.
arken1015 arien666
arken666
In BPM change section, there is an example how we can avoid overlapping notes when dropping speed of notes. Yeah I mean lowering note speed gradually by setting HS one by one. (I hope you get it...) Well personally I don't like it but it can be considered as a mapping technique. But I want to quote that, please avoid putting complex streams using that technique. This technique may looks good, but not so great to reading notes.
----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
About the drumroll in a 1/3 song :
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/123616&m=1 I made a trick in this map to do so.
Let's make an example with 200 BPM, SV 1.0 (Examples with these numbers to get a better accuracy in numbers and mental calculus sdgadfsfa)
First, you have a 1/4 roll at 200 BPM, which gives 800 instead of 600. 600 1/1 in 1/4 gives 150 BPM. (Which is 0,75×the original BPM.)
Problem is, your scroll is not 200 anymore since you dropped by 0,25x, but you want to give the illusion it's STILL 200 BPM.
Scroll drops from 200 to 150 => 3/4. To go from 150 to 200, you'll need to use the INVERSE of 3/4 which is 4/3 or 1,3333333× the new bpm.
With SV 1,0 it will give 1,333333333
With SV 1,4 it will give 1,866666667
With SV 1,6 it will give 2,133333333
(You can still edit the osz file to get a better accuracy.)
You have one problem which is easily solvable, it's the measure bug, put 3/4 (if it's a 4/4 song)
If it's a 3/4 song... It's very hard. D: better put BPM ×3 and put time signature 9/4 LOL
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/123616&m=1 I made a trick in this map to do so.
Let's make an example with 200 BPM, SV 1.0 (Examples with these numbers to get a better accuracy in numbers and mental calculus sdgadfsfa)
First, you have a 1/4 roll at 200 BPM, which gives 800 instead of 600. 600 1/1 in 1/4 gives 150 BPM. (Which is 0,75×the original BPM.)
Problem is, your scroll is not 200 anymore since you dropped by 0,25x, but you want to give the illusion it's STILL 200 BPM.
Scroll drops from 200 to 150 => 3/4. To go from 150 to 200, you'll need to use the INVERSE of 3/4 which is 4/3 or 1,3333333× the new bpm.
With SV 1,0 it will give 1,333333333
With SV 1,4 it will give 1,866666667
With SV 1,6 it will give 2,133333333
(You can still edit the osz file to get a better accuracy.)
You have one problem which is easily solvable, it's the measure bug, put 3/4 (if it's a 4/4 song)
If it's a 3/4 song... It's very hard. D: better put BPM ×3 and put time signature 9/4 LOL
Topic Starter
lepidopodus wrote:
In BPM change section......
I do agree.
----
I guess we can make this rules/guidelines active if there isn't any more objections of suggestions, but I want to stress that, this guidelines/rules should be changeable with nice reasons and enough discussions. We weren't that strict, right?
Also please be flexible when apply guidelines. (Well, rules cannot be broken before we change it.)
I would like to do so, but since I have exams in one week I need to wait for now.
Yes, we will be still flexbile and the rules are going to be changeable even on approved status. But maybe that's something I need to talk to the BAT's and peppy soon.
Hi I'd like to bring up my concerns to this rule
Custom Hitsound Volume
Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
Use the "Normal" audio sample set.
Why must you only use the normal audio set afaik TnT had custom hitsound sets and as long as the hitsounds are "DRUM" related I would see no problem with letting custom hitsounds being accepted as rankable.
Custom Hitsound Volume
Keep volume at a constant level (e.g. 80%) with the beat still somewhat audible.
Use the "Normal" audio sample set.
Why must you only use the normal audio set afaik TnT had custom hitsound sets and as long as the hitsounds are "DRUM" related I would see no problem with letting custom hitsounds being accepted as rankable.
Well, we agree with the hitbursts part, that's just obvious. But why are we against custom hitsounds? Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options. In certain Taiko games there are missions where you have to use a specific hitsound set to pass a map. Is it not enough that dons should just generally be a lower tone than kats, which should have a higher tone?OnosakiHito wrote:
- Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
For example, what is so bad about setting a custom hitsound set of kick/snare when the song you are mapping to is a Rock/Metal song?
Nuff said.those wrote:
Even the authentic games come with alternative hitsounds that you can choose in the options.OnosakiHito wrote:
- Custom hitbursts and hitsounds
You must not use custom hitbursts and hitsounds.
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
Topic Starter
@ztrot: What you mean is probably what those has mentioned? Because, the volumen I mentioned there has nothing to do with the custom-hitsounds. I will explain it it down below.
@those: Generelly they have no effect to taiko because the sounds are allways shown as kat/don as I know. Also they dosen't need to be changed in the editor since this would make the job for modding the maps just harder.
In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
@those: Generelly they have no effect to taiko because the sounds are allways shown as kat/don as I know. Also they dosen't need to be changed in the editor since this would make the job for modding the maps just harder.
In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
Yes it can!OnosakiHito wrote:
@ztrot: In case that overwriting the sounds is possible, it would be better to forbid it before people could abuse them, like for example spaming. - Modding can't avoid everytime such issues.
I didn't get this part at all.OnosakiHito wrote:
But the main reason is to keep everything uniformly since this isn't the Taiko-RPG game or osu! it self. If people really want to use custom sounds, they can look into this thread: p/780137
It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.OnoaskiHito wrote:
Also as I know the Taiko-Community it self is agains this use of sounds...?
What actually makes sense IS decided by the community.
I still deny to use custom hitsounds since the game mode is based in this two specific ones (the deep sounded Don and the high sounded Kat)
If you play real taikos,(those Japanese drums, u know) there are only these two noises you can produce.
It makes just no sense to put custom hitsounds to a mod, which is focused on it's very own hitsounds.
You can't just change this central gameplay element. It's too crucial that it must stay consistent.
And adding those custom hitsounds just ends that everyone goes deletes them and if you can even toggle to force-overwrite with your skin (like the cursor in standard), probably everyone would do that (unless the ones, who don't know about the option or the mapper self)
I still deny to use custom hitsounds since the game mode is based in this two specific ones (the deep sounded Don and the high sounded Kat)
If you play real taikos,(those Japanese drums, u know) there are only these two noises you can produce.
It makes just no sense to put custom hitsounds to a mod, which is focused on it's very own hitsounds.
You can't just change this central gameplay element. It's too crucial that it must stay consistent.
And adding those custom hitsounds just ends that everyone goes deletes them and if you can even toggle to force-overwrite with your skin (like the cursor in standard), probably everyone would do that (unless the ones, who don't know about the option or the mapper self)
Topic Starter
lepidopodus gaved many times examples where modding didn't helped at all. We don't need to start this discussion a third or 4th time.
And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
I'm totally agains this, especially because in TnT Arcarde is no use of custom-sounds, to come back to your said authentic stuff, Sakura. This isn't a Taiko-RPG.
Most Taiko people are agains it and in this thread there wasn't even one objection. And to be honest, those people have at least to me a bigger value in this thread as osu! or ctb players, else this wouldn't make any sense here.
I understand exactly your point, even if you think I don't do. It makes sense to use a fitting sound for a certain song, but I will say it one more time:
This is Taiko. 太鼓, japanese for "Drum". It makes much more sense to use drum sounds instead any other custom things.
I'm done here.
That's why we had some problems with the osu! rules in the past and why it got into public dicussion, as I know. We don't need to make the same mistake in Taiko, that's why I, no... we consider the communitys voice. Especially because I'm not the Admin of Taiko, just a little announcer.Sakura wrote:
It is not about what the community decides, but what makes sense, remember your rules shouldn't be based off authenticity.
And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
I'm totally agains this, especially because in TnT Arcarde is no use of custom-sounds, to come back to your said authentic stuff, Sakura. This isn't a Taiko-RPG.
Most Taiko people are agains it and in this thread there wasn't even one objection. And to be honest, those people have at least to me a bigger value in this thread as osu! or ctb players, else this wouldn't make any sense here.
I understand exactly your point, even if you think I don't do. It makes sense to use a fitting sound for a certain song, but I will say it one more time:
This is Taiko. 太鼓, japanese for "Drum". It makes much more sense to use drum sounds instead any other custom things.
I'm done here.
Tie this into mapping: "Oh, my map's good enough for bubble, so it's good enough for rank, and I'm going to reject suggestions that might make it better."OnosakiHito wrote:
And to be honest, I don't see why something should be changed that worked all the years smooth and well...?
In general, that's like saying "Oh, something's good enough, I'm not going to even take a chance to try to make it better."
Topic Starter
Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
You guys dont use custom hitsounds, that's understandable, and you can continue doing so, just dont enforce it into other mappersOnosakiHito wrote:
Better try to refute my and Loctavs other stronger arguments instead this one.
What you do is to compear pears with apples.
Also you and Sakura have two different opinions about authentic. If you guys really want to change something talk about it first together and give me then a solution, not questions or other stuff since you know that much about Taiko.
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
Also you guys got a taiko bat now *runs*
Topic Starter
Other mappers like osu mappers? Sakura, please, this isn't the osu mod at all.
The Taiko community in generelly decided not to use it, so you need to follow this rule even as osu/ctb-player, MAT or BAT, too. And not in the other way that our rules follow the other communitys/socities.
And just to clear something: Even if I would like to change it, I can't. Do it if you want, but it's not my fault when many people are going to complain about this... ^^
Yeah we know and we are thankfull for this.
The Taiko community in generelly decided not to use it, so you need to follow this rule even as osu/ctb-player, MAT or BAT, too. And not in the other way that our rules follow the other communitys/socities.
And just to clear something: Even if I would like to change it, I can't. Do it if you want, but it's not my fault when many people are going to complain about this... ^^
Yeah we know and we are thankfull for this.
Hitsounds in Taiko are THE central gameplay element, force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
It's easy enough to add a link to a skin with the desired hitsounds in the beatmap thread and set that skin as the requested skin in the editor.
It's easy enough to add a link to a skin with the desired hitsounds in the beatmap thread and set that skin as the requested skin in the editor.
if you use taiko skin in taiko mode, custom hitsound will not affect anything
Also custom hitsound volume is assigned to an specific difficult (as it can be changed in time section tag)
So why is this bothering us?
Also custom hitsound volume is assigned to an specific difficult (as it can be changed in time section tag)
So why is this bothering us?
Why do you talk like you're a god? Also, don't talk like you know osu! or CtB, since all you seem to know is Taiko. I feel really insulted. We don't have to come together to give YOU a solution. The only thing I've done is generalize the problem. More people have more Taiko experience than you think.OnosakiHito wrote:
I feel really insulted. I can understand lepidopodus right now.
In addition, you haven't come up with anything besides "I know the community best (i.e. I am the community) and the community says custom hitsound are bad because they are."
Those-dono, if you are only reading Onosakis stuff and generally ignore the others with given arguments (see Luna, me and matthewhln), then your arguments are invalid.
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I know that you try to open the doors for more creativity, but this is Taiko.
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Even if you have some valid points, you can't make us nuke this rule due to the enormous impact of hitsounds to the game mode.
And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why. (especially lepidopodus, which some of the BATs tried to oppose, too, and it turned out that the revolutioneers are the one without a clue about the game mode self - and failed hard)
No offense, those and Sakura, but you brought no valid reason to nuke this rule, yet.
Despite us, who brought several ones to let it stay alive.
Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work. And especially, show us hitsounds that respect the Don-Kat sounding purpose, that is given by this game mode.
(there are none despite the one in the default osu skin)
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far.
I know that you try to open the doors for more creativity, but this is Taiko.
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Even if you have some valid points, you can't make us nuke this rule due to the enormous impact of hitsounds to the game mode.
And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why. (especially lepidopodus, which some of the BATs tried to oppose, too, and it turned out that the revolutioneers are the one without a clue about the game mode self - and failed hard)
No offense, those and Sakura, but you brought no valid reason to nuke this rule, yet.
Despite us, who brought several ones to let it stay alive.
Fill it with content, show us examples where it might work. And especially, show us hitsounds that respect the Don-Kat sounding purpose, that is given by this game mode.
(there are none despite the one in the default osu skin)
And why is there a problem with that? You're having an approach object reach its receptor; it's just in a different shape. In addition, I seem to recall a beatmap with hearts instead of circles, and there was no problem playing that.Luna wrote:
force-changing them would feel similar to changing hitcircles into hitsquares in osu! Standard imo
I present to you the prepared piano.Loctav wrote:
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT. It's like you start giving a piano guitar noises. Just quit it. You won't be able to make the taiko community agree.
Read p/1542056Loctav wrote:
Stop trying to change stuff that worked pretty well so far
You're saying Taiko isn't in need of more creativity. Why do you say that?Loctav wrote:
but this is Taiko
You say that as if you actually know more about how it works than the rest of us. Regardless of whether I feel insulted or not, the only thing you have against this is "We know better than you and we speak for everyone." That seems a little outrageous, considering the fact that we're the ones giving suggestions on possible improvement and you feel you're somehow in a position to reject all of it without giving valid reason.Loctav wrote:
And if you don't read everything and are unable to counter our arguments, then I can understand why Onosaki feels insulted.
Because you act as if your arguments weighted more than from guys who actually know how it works and especially why.
@1 This is not the point of playing a Piano at all. You know what I meant with this.
@2 Wow, you skipped the part with the "enormous impact to gameplay"
@3 Because Taiko consists of placing two colors of hitobjects in a row. Wow.
@4 We are not saying that ONLY. The point it, that this has happened a lot of times already (I should summon lepidopodus) and the outturn was ALWAYS the same.
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes. We are not conservative and try to improve this, too, but THIS is really not required in my opinion.
I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
@2 Wow, you skipped the part with the "enormous impact to gameplay"
@3 Because Taiko consists of placing two colors of hitobjects in a row. Wow.
@4 We are not saying that ONLY. The point it, that this has happened a lot of times already (I should summon lepidopodus) and the outturn was ALWAYS the same.
The suggestion of "possible improvement" is a suggestion of "possible mess" in our eyes. We are not conservative and try to improve this, too, but THIS is really not required in my opinion.
I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
Just because you can't relate to playing a prepared piano, it doesn't mean that isn't the point of a piano. The piano has gone through hundreds and hundreds of years of changes and it just so happens that the post-modern era includes the prepared piano as an instrument.Loctav wrote:
I gave you valid reasons, btw. Just because you can't relate them, it doesn't mean they aren't valid at all.
I don't know how much you're really into music or rhythm, but whenever you hear a nice beat and you try to play along with it with whatever's on your desk, you would generally try to find a lower tone (e.g. tapping your textbook) to sound the bass (this is represented by don in Taiko), and a higher tone to sound, well, the higher tone. This is why music can be created with just a bass and snare drum, or the flipside of a bucket. As long as you have something to present both of the tones that don/kat currently represent, why is there a problem?
In addition, without any trying, there won't be any mess or improvement. But since we already know how to "fix" the "possible mess" (just revert to this rule), why can't we strive for improvement? Why has osu! allowed different hitsounds, if the default hitsounds were intended to be used since they are included?
Well, I know about how a rhythm is based and that there needs to be a bass tone and a higher tone. Whatsoever, osu!standard allowed custom hitsounds because they have almost no impact to the gameplay itself (okay, if you place them wrong, they may be VERY distracting, but they don't affect the gameplay SELF (clicking circles is regardless of what noise they make)
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
I see I'm starting to get to you.Loctav wrote:
too high variety between the hitsoundings
In osu! modding, there are many people to know which hitsounds fit the song and which do not. I'm sure Taiko mods are capable enough to know which hitsounds are appropriate and which ones are not. We just haven't had any opportunity to do it yet. I propose a change to this rule such that:
Custom hitbursts are not allowed. Custom hitsounds must be appropriate in that dons are clearly represented by a deeper/lower tone than kats, which are to be represented by a higher/lighter tone.
And if this goes awry, we'll revert. How's that?
Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, the notes will still look red and blue, i don't see why this is bothering you so much, plus it's not like we would add guitar hitsounds but more like other possible drum hitsounds, because there are drum sounds in the world that arent just the default taiko ones.Loctav wrote:
but for Taiko, the hitsounds are essential, since they determine WHAT to press. So having a too high variety between the hitsoundings is ending in a huge mess.
Also why do you think we would add more than 2 hitsounds to Taiko?
We never said something about "more than 2 hitsounds".
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction. You can get used to it, but you can also get used to hidden reverse arrows. Still it's considered as unrankable.
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
It bothers me, because it causes no improvement and pure distraction. You can get used to it, but you can also get used to hidden reverse arrows. Still it's considered as unrankable.
Well, it's not that simple than you guys thought.
We all agree that hitsound is much more important in Taiko while it's not in osu standard. In Taiko we need to distinguish two sounds.
What we will hit will be decided by the colour of note, at least mostly. But you does not always hit the right keys unless you are a god-like player. How do Taiko players know that they hit their notes properly? And if they failed to hit properly, how do they decide which way to hit keys with not breaking combos or at least minimize lose of scores? This is the matter of hitsound cause hitsound is the result of how you actually hit.
When you hit the key, hitsound sounds. Taiko players hear it and react. This reaction should be happening in really short time. Since we need to distinguish sounds, even subtle change can be really irritating. (Not like osu standard. osu standard players only need to distinguish somehthing sounds or not.)
So that is why Taiko mappers and players here agree to not to enable custom hitsound. It isn't matter of authneticity cause lots of players actually use their custom hitsound, far from TnT thing. Yup, we oppose to map-specific custom hitsound but we don't care about player-specific custom hit sound.
Well we might reconsider when there is options like 'ignore map-specific custom hitsound' or something. Anyway, does custom hitsound works systematically? I never tried it before.
And please, do not cover characteristics by generality of rhythm games. It always happened since lots of MATs and BATs.... Well, you know what I mean.
(BTW, who's got BAT'ed while I was away?)
We all agree that hitsound is much more important in Taiko while it's not in osu standard. In Taiko we need to distinguish two sounds.
What we will hit will be decided by the colour of note, at least mostly. But you does not always hit the right keys unless you are a god-like player. How do Taiko players know that they hit their notes properly? And if they failed to hit properly, how do they decide which way to hit keys with not breaking combos or at least minimize lose of scores? This is the matter of hitsound cause hitsound is the result of how you actually hit.
When you hit the key, hitsound sounds. Taiko players hear it and react. This reaction should be happening in really short time. Since we need to distinguish sounds, even subtle change can be really irritating. (Not like osu standard. osu standard players only need to distinguish somehthing sounds or not.)
So that is why Taiko mappers and players here agree to not to enable custom hitsound. It isn't matter of authneticity cause lots of players actually use their custom hitsound, far from TnT thing. Yup, we oppose to map-specific custom hitsound but we don't care about player-specific custom hit sound.
Well we might reconsider when there is options like 'ignore map-specific custom hitsound' or something. Anyway, does custom hitsound works systematically? I never tried it before.
And please, do not cover characteristics by generality of rhythm games. It always happened since lots of MATs and BATs.... Well, you know what I mean.
(BTW, who's got BAT'ed while I was away?)
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.Loctav wrote:
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)
Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future. Now you Taiko guys might know why I always so aggressive about these kind of matter.
EDIT:
I explained why this is so irritating to Taiko players in previous post. I guess loctav already told similar thing.Sakura wrote:
[Sorry Loctav, but you and Luna are taking this the wrong way, the hitsounds dont tell you what you press, nor how the notes look, they tell you what you hear when you hit them, (...)
You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.lepidopodus wrote:
I already said that it's not the matter of authentic or not. It is matter of map-specific custom hitsound should be allowed.those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.
And please do not enforce us to get accustomed to things are not familiar with us? (BTW, was it that easy to do that?)
Huh, these MATs and BATs are always same, no matter it's past, present, future.
So, I'm here to post some of my thoughts about the custom taiko hitsounds ~
I understand that you guys want to use other hitsounds for some maps because they fit well
For me, I don't oppose that because they can further improve the map, as you guys said
However, I think the default hitsounds should not be overwritten, even if the new hitsounds fit well
Since we shouldn't force all players to use that particular type of hitsounds
Some players are just used to the default hitsounds, and won't change to other hitsounds even they fit
Mostly because they feel less comfortable when playing with less-familiar hitsounds
I myself is one of them. I just prefer using default hitsounds as I use them since I played taiko in 2008
And yes, as Ono and loctav said, it'll be good to keep the default hitsounds as this is Taiko mode.
Taiko mode should include Taiko hitsounds and so I think the default hitsounds should be the don kat sounds
Maybe you guys can just include a dl link of the new hitsounds in the map description so that players who want to and try new hitsounds too ?
I think this can make both sides happy as the default hisounds will not be overwritten in this way, and new hitsounds can be used for those who want to ~
Any thoughts ? :3
I understand that you guys want to use other hitsounds for some maps because they fit well
For me, I don't oppose that because they can further improve the map, as you guys said
However, I think the default hitsounds should not be overwritten, even if the new hitsounds fit well
Since we shouldn't force all players to use that particular type of hitsounds
Some players are just used to the default hitsounds, and won't change to other hitsounds even they fit
Mostly because they feel less comfortable when playing with less-familiar hitsounds
I myself is one of them. I just prefer using default hitsounds as I use them since I played taiko in 2008
And yes, as Ono and loctav said, it'll be good to keep the default hitsounds as this is Taiko mode.
Taiko mode should include Taiko hitsounds and so I think the default hitsounds should be the don kat sounds
Maybe you guys can just include a dl link of the new hitsounds in the map description so that players who want to and try new hitsounds too ?
I think this can make both sides happy as the default hisounds will not be overwritten in this way, and new hitsounds can be used for those who want to ~
Any thoughts ? :3
@those
Since we are always criticized like 'why you authentic authentic authentic blahblah', we already got quite far from that. That is why I stressed that. And you are already criticizing us like 'why you always want to keep authentic blahblahbalh' or something. It's true, right?
Anyway let's get to the point. That reaction should be done only in a few ms. (Seriously, the notes we hit are not that far away.) Since that high/low things are not so objective (if it is objective thing, you can't use various hitsound, seriously. And actually How people accustomed to some specific hitsound is different, so we can't make limits of how high or low should hitounds be. Subjectively, it is possible, though.) being accustomed to every different maps is really a big matter to players.
And why I aways be aggressive MATs or BATs: even if they are Taiko players, in Taiko community they don't have much privilege to decide things as in osu standard mapping community since they lacks experience or so, but they usually pretend to they can do that. huh.
BTW the time isn't so good for me, lolol. Quite late in here.
Since we are always criticized like 'why you authentic authentic authentic blahblah', we already got quite far from that. That is why I stressed that. And you are already criticizing us like 'why you always want to keep authentic blahblahbalh' or something. It's true, right?
Anyway let's get to the point. That reaction should be done only in a few ms. (Seriously, the notes we hit are not that far away.) Since that high/low things are not so objective (if it is objective thing, you can't use various hitsound, seriously. And actually How people accustomed to some specific hitsound is different, so we can't make limits of how high or low should hitounds be. Subjectively, it is possible, though.) being accustomed to every different maps is really a big matter to players.
And why I aways be aggressive MATs or BATs: even if they are Taiko players, in Taiko community they don't have much privilege to decide things as in osu standard mapping community since they lacks experience or so, but they usually pretend to they can do that. huh.
Topic Starter
You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.those wrote:
You're not reading my post, lepidon. I bolded the important part. And I didn't come here as a MAT; I came here as a Taiko player looking for improvements.
Just wait for the other people who could come into this thread.
The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?OnosakiHito wrote:
You either, you even had no contra words to other stuff we said.
No. Start reading our posts and my sentences in #lounge. It's more than "its good enough". Thanks
Being conservative isn't evil and changes does not lead to good future always. That is why we should cautious. If you want change something you need to state why changes should be done and check your idea get enough support, but generally you are just criticizing onosakihito's attitude.those wrote:
The only thing you effectively said was "We don't want change because it's good enough as it is." What more do you want me to say?
This rule already have changes, yeah I'm telling you about big note in the end of stream. That changes have done cause we think there is a consensus, and we think it is ok and there is enough valid reasons. But about this, no consensus yet, not so solid reasons yet. Since enabling this possibly irritates lots of players we need to be more cautious but you are kinda... nagging.
EDIT:
I've said that I don't care if there is option like 'ignoring map-specific hitsound' or something like that, then I don't care. But enabling map-specific hitsound without giving a choice, then I think that is bad. Since we don't have any kind of system now, I oppose map-specific hitsound.
Well.
Allow custom hitsounds would change the way of mapping songs
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors, as Loctav said.
I can't really think of mapping with new hitsounds... I guess the patterns would be VERY different just to follow the way of hearing the notes etc etc
and.. maybe if ~someone~ dislikes this new hitsounds
this one will probably delete/disable them
and then the map will not be the same with default hitsounds because it was mapped with others (get what I meant to say?)
So, or you play with custom or you don't play because the map turned SHIT
Taiko is Taiko.
inb4 the piano example again..
So... it's the same of electronic musical keyboards, you have a bunch of new sounds but it can't reproduce a piano sound perfectly, and it's not a piano itself. So, imo, Taiko must be always Taiko
That's my opinion.
Sorry for my bad english.
Allow custom hitsounds would change the way of mapping songs
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors, as Loctav said.
I can't really think of mapping with new hitsounds... I guess the patterns would be VERY different just to follow the way of hearing the notes etc etc
and.. maybe if ~someone~ dislikes this new hitsounds
this one will probably delete/disable them
and then the map will not be the same with default hitsounds because it was mapped with others (get what I meant to say?)
So, or you play with custom or you don't play because the map turned SHIT
Taiko is Taiko.
inb4 the piano example again..
So... it's the same of electronic musical keyboards, you have a bunch of new sounds but it can't reproduce a piano sound perfectly, and it's not a piano itself. So, imo, Taiko must be always Taiko
That's my opinion.
Sorry for my bad english.
@^: Well at least I got your reasons, thanks.
Topic Starter
@those: Also you do it again. No response to lepidopodus post at all because there are probably points you can't deny, else you would allready contar to this.
And lepidopodus said right now what I told you before too: Find solid reasons at least please. Else there will be no changes yet, especially because - as allready said before (twice and more) - in generel community is agains this and because Taiko people have a higher value here.
To be honest that's too much right now. If there is coming any other post that can be markt as spam because of sensless speach, it will be deleted. We really don't need to make a circle of infinity. Thank you.
@[Luanny PhNyx]: I did understand you too. Thanks.
And lepidopodus said right now what I told you before too: Find solid reasons at least please. Else there will be no changes yet, especially because - as allready said before (twice and more) - in generel community is agains this and because Taiko people have a higher value here.
To be honest that's too much right now. If there is coming any other post that can be markt as spam because of sensless speach, it will be deleted. We really don't need to make a circle of infinity. Thank you.
@[Luanny PhNyx]: I did understand you too. Thanks.
Hi Lu.[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Since mapping/playing is based on hitsounds and only two colors
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
those wrote:
Correct. For example, a dkddk pattern sounds like kick/snare/kick/kick/snare, or low/high/low/low/high. It's a matter of getting accustomed to the idea of a high/low sound as opposed to reacting to only the authentic don/kat sound.Loctav wrote:
Theoretically, the color tells you what to press, but practically you rely on the hitsounds to know when you change the pattern to play. You read the patterns but rely on the hitsounds to get it proper. Especially in Hidden mod, you rely even more on the hitsounds.
Onosakihito, relax? Well I already starting to getting aggressive and it is enough to have one aggressive Taiko guy in here.
Kinda hard to discuss about does really people get irritated when hitsound changes, it is kinda matter of personal experience or characteristics or something. We might talk about how players play Taiko here, but it can be different with actual practicing. That is why we need consensus first, and we end up put more value to some guys who knows Taiko well.
But I guess general opinion is against about that, and even experts are not support that.
Kinda hard to discuss about does really people get irritated when hitsound changes, it is kinda matter of personal experience or characteristics or something. We might talk about how players play Taiko here, but it can be different with actual practicing. That is why we need consensus first, and we end up put more value to some guys who knows Taiko well.
But I guess general opinion is against about that, and even experts are not support that.
Okay, I only skimmed through the subject so excuse me if I may be off-topic. But from what I'm seeing, this is a discussion on forcing custom taiko hit-sounds in beatmap set?
I would like to quote some things here;
If they are going to add this rule, at least allow a toggle in the skins options "use beatmap's taiko hitsounds" or something.
I know we'll just get shot down because of the famous quote, "This is osu!, not taiko", but still try to hear us out.
That's all I got to say, I gave up on this thread quite some time ago. orz
I would like to quote some things here;
This is very true, as I use custom hitsounds sometimes for taiko, (When I'm playing metal songs and stuff, but never when I'm playing authentic or for ranking) . But like he said, forcing it in a mapset would just be cruel.MMzz wrote:
Noone is stopping you from useing your own custom hits on your own, but it shouldn't be forced.
If they are going to add this rule, at least allow a toggle in the skins options "use beatmap's taiko hitsounds" or something.
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)Loctav wrote:
We are simulating and INSTRUMENT
I know we'll just get shot down because of the famous quote, "This is osu!, not taiko", but still try to hear us out.
That's all I got to say, I gave up on this thread quite some time ago. orz
Looks like a good idea to me. p/1278182peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
@^: Hey I guess you are already said that's not the point? I already told that it isn't matter of authentic or not several times. Do not cover other issues to that thing.
You blacklisted me or what.
EDIT:
You blacklisted me or what.
EDIT:
I already stated how hitsound can be effect gameplay, and I already state just stating that high/low can be too subjective. You are just ignoring me.those wrote:
Hi Lu.
Taiko is not based on hitsounding at all, at the moment. Because there's no option to change to other hitsounds because of this rule that should not even exist, all you're doing is creating one object that represents don, and one object that represents kat, which happens to be the sounds like the one you use now. Whether these hitsounds you use are the authentic ones or not, don is just a representation of the lower tone (bass) and kat is just a representation of the higher tone.
Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:
lepidopodus wrote:
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys.
I agree. But ppy has said that he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name. He didn't choose it because he wanted it to be identical to "taiko no tatsujin".Sander-Don wrote:
I like this point, it's "taiko", not drum set, or guitar. Without the taiko hit-sounds, it's not taiko anymore. (In my opinion)
This is matter of allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not keeping it authentic or not. Did I said something like 'keep this cause this is authentic?' or something? And players are already use player-specific hitsound which is already far different from authentic TnT.Sakura wrote:
Lepi, wasnt you the one who said:
I've already stated this several times but you guys simply ignoring me. Who's trolling, seriously. Did you read my posts or not, honestly?
You guys are covering our other reasonings for that. It's really bad. Both of you.
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
After all, the Taiko mode is similar to Taiko no Tatsujin and is a Taiko no Tatsujin simulatorthose wrote:
he called it "taiko" because he couldn't think of a better name.
My brother was saying the same thing when I was starting to map in Stepmania, lol
About custom hitsounds, I'm pretty neutral since I usually play with "custom HS" in the DS games, but in this game I leave the taiko HS as they are. (In taikojiro to play normally I have to delete them, FAIL)
As long as we can notice a huge difference of pitch which are the equivalent of the D and K sounds, I don't mind. But forcing isn't really a good idea imo (I personally hate forcing skins in standard mode :/)
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.Sakura wrote:
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
So regardless of which campaign you select of, either the mappers or the players are forced to have something they don't like.
And since even the mapper agree with blocking custom hitsounds (despite those), the 'enforcement' argument is invalid, since it always appears in each situation somewhere.
That can be really distracting to players generally. I already told you why. To simplify, players should react how hitsound sounds and every players have their own hitsounds to play and custom hitsounds can be really distracting for it. We think this is too much for player and that is why currently we are disallow it. I think we need to think about how players playing first, and I guess lots of Taiko mappers / players agree with that, at least I guess.Sakura wrote:
If you guys dont want to map with custom hitsounds, fine by me, but dont force it on every mapper.
Whatever. BATs can intervene, but should respect experts opinions since BATs are not experts in here. Don't simply tip off our voice like that.
You can relate this to the million of suggestions about forcing your own skin for osu! standard as well, why not make an osu! standard rule that says that you cannot use custom skin then since players dont like them?Loctav wrote:
The One who will be forced are the taiko players according to your suggestion.
Well, sure. Lepidon said it. We selected to enforce this scenario since most agree to it. If you choose enforce another scenario in osu!, well, okay.
I just mean the whole discussion about enforcing is not valid, neither in osu! Nor in taiko/CtB.
There need to be other reasons. And we brought them. Like you did in standard
I just mean the whole discussion about enforcing is not valid, neither in osu! Nor in taiko/CtB.
There need to be other reasons. And we brought them. Like you did in standard
@sakura: Again, generality... *sigh*
Let me ask, why it should be related? That is the matter of osu standard and this is the matter of Taiko. osu standard matters are not so related in this thread, I think, so those millions of voices, should we care about that?
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This is getting ridiculous, we are trying to find a reasons to defend but why we should keep talking about other things like how people did in osu standard or how people did in TnT or how people did in piano or something? (At least those's 'accustomed to high/low pitch' was valuable, but others, meh.)
EDIT:
Whatever, for me, time-out.
This will be decided by outsiders as other important matter was done previously, as always. I'm quite sure lololol
Let me ask, why it should be related? That is the matter of osu standard and this is the matter of Taiko. osu standard matters are not so related in this thread, I think, so those millions of voices, should we care about that?
----
This is getting ridiculous, we are trying to find a reasons to defend but why we should keep talking about other things like how people did in osu standard or how people did in TnT or how people did in piano or something? (At least those's 'accustomed to high/low pitch' was valuable, but others, meh.)
EDIT:
Whatever, for me, time-out.
This will be decided by outsiders as other important matter was done previously, as always. I'm quite sure lololol
Alright. Time to bring in an example.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/110219
Why can maps like this be mapped accurately to Taiko?
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/110219
Why can maps like this be mapped accurately to Taiko?
Topic Starter
Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.
If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
@lepidopodus: This will not happen again. Not here.
Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.peppy wrote:
[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.
If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
@lepidopodus: This will not happen again. Not here.
@those
Ok I am not an experient mapper but
at least when I am mapping I try to follow the song's drumline using the hitsounds
And it makes sense for me since it's a drum game
So, for what I can see, it IS bsed on hitsounds (and colors, duh)
Also, I play this game only because of the Taiko Mode
So, for me, this game IS Taiko TOO.
That's why we have the Taiko Community
And im my opinion (haters gonna hate), mapping without taiko default hitsounds isn't map for taiko.
It's okay if you map it for your own fun, but as someone (can't remember who) said before, force players to play it is just cruel.
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
Ok I am not an experient mapper but
at least when I am mapping I try to follow the song's drumline using the hitsounds
And it makes sense for me since it's a drum game
So, for what I can see, it IS bsed on hitsounds (and colors, duh)
Also, I play this game only because of the Taiko Mode
So, for me, this game IS Taiko TOO.
That's why we have the Taiko Community
And im my opinion (haters gonna hate), mapping without taiko default hitsounds isn't map for taiko.
It's okay if you map it for your own fun, but as someone (can't remember who) said before, force players to play it is just cruel.
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
So now that we have this, what's wrong with using a bass drum as don and a snare drum as kat?OnosakiHito wrote:
@those: This map can be mapped on taiko because we have many, many styles, where one of it can fit to it perfectly. Also using sounds like e.g. konga wouldn't help at all since, as you said in the beginning, it should give a clear sound that represent ,,don" or ,,kat".
Topic Starter
@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
Before I sleep please remember this guys: we are talking about allowing map-specific hitsound or not, not disallowing any kind of authentic things or something. (I always told this towards Taiko guys but this time it's not, lol.)
If you guys criticize me for cling to authentic I think that might be valid, but most other Taiko guys here are really far from authentic TnT things, their experience, their mapping style or playing style, lots of things. And if we are talking about authentics we might say 'disallowing everything beside Taiko skin' but several Taiko players, even some in here are using other hitsound or their own hitsound. Currently It's really bad to criticizing Taiko community for being cling to authentic things cause it isn't valid anymore, we are already far from that, seriously.
If you guys criticize me for cling to authentic I think that might be valid, but most other Taiko guys here are really far from authentic TnT things, their experience, their mapping style or playing style, lots of things. And if we are talking about authentics we might say 'disallowing everything beside Taiko skin' but several Taiko players, even some in here are using other hitsound or their own hitsound. Currently It's really bad to criticizing Taiko community for being cling to authentic things cause it isn't valid anymore, we are already far from that, seriously.
And the answer is, "there is nothing wrong". It's only you who is against it because you fail to see that change is possibly an improvement, even though there's enough space to fix errors if needed.OnosakiHito wrote:
@^: You may search the answer in this thread by yourself. I will not answer to this a 5th time for sure.
Topic Starter
^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video. I'm done with you here. peppys quote says everything.
So, you must think there's something wrong with the music in the video. Lemme give it to you straight: there isn't.OnosakiHito wrote:
^@: Says the one who has tried to explain it to Loctav with a video.
I agree. But who is to say they won't sound just as good/better with alternate hitsounds?[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
Also, dnb sounds awesome with taiko hitsounds, imo.
I think this is crazy. If I want to make my own map of say Nighwish or other Guitar based songs, I can't use kick / snare? Its like saying that all the maps must be Oni cause that some people won't play anything less. This elitism is crazy. We have maps in osu! standard that are head and shoulders beyond what the EBA/OTO devs thought about. I would agree that the don be a low and kat be a high but there is no reason why they can't change if they see fit. If someone doesn't like that a map uses non-standard hitsounds, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PLAY IT. (capped for emphasis)
Topic Starter
^@: The reason for this has been given by lepidopodus allready before(and also some other people).
Please go some sites(1?) backwards, I'm sure you will find the answer.
Please go some sites(1?) backwards, I'm sure you will find the answer.
@GigaClon: We are opposing this cause we think that is really distracing for playing properly. Generally Taiko mappers agree at this as well so that is why we maintain this rule until now. (At least I assume.) I already describe how this is different from osu standard, not simply ignoring others.
Someone who is considered as 'with in Taiko community' or someone who knows this matter at least a bit can critisize me having elitism, but to be honest, even without any knowledge about this matter, do not simply called someone like that. Put everything in to elitism is also the way ignoring someone's opinion.
Also onosakihito, please be more reasonable.
(This keeps me awaken in this deep night lolol)
EDIT:
BTW, stop talking about unrelated things. This time we got 'elitism'. I'm expecting what would be the next.
EDIT2:
BTW I'm thinking about compromisation, cause this matter is worth to keep open to future discussion, I guess
Someone who is considered as 'with in Taiko community' or someone who knows this matter at least a bit can critisize me having elitism, but to be honest, even without any knowledge about this matter, do not simply called someone like that. Put everything in to elitism is also the way ignoring someone's opinion.
Also onosakihito, please be more reasonable.
(This keeps me awaken in this deep night lolol)
EDIT:
BTW, stop talking about unrelated things. This time we got 'elitism'. I'm expecting what would be the next.
EDIT2:
BTW I'm thinking about compromisation, cause this matter is worth to keep open to future discussion, I guess
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
Which game?MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"peppy wrote:
Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!.
Is that not what modding is for? "I mapped my song this way because I interpret it this way with its current position in space and time, so I reject any suggestion that can make it better."MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?MMzz wrote:
Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
Again, is this not modding is for?MMzz wrote:
For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
So, can you say that there is zero chance of another hitsound set that is capable of achieving the same freestyle beat and flow?MMzz wrote:
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
I never said such a thing. I'm trying to point out that if people use custom hits it's just going to get WORSE.those wrote:
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?
Modding taiko, that's a funny joke.those wrote:
Again, is this not modding is for?
@Sakura, go get your taiko playcount up some so I can take what you are saying seriously.
Why don't you guys actually read my post before going off on how bad my opinion is because I think custom hits are stupid.
tl;dr:
^Exactly what I think.MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
+1[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:
tl;dr:^Exactly what I think.MMzz wrote:
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
Well yeah it's not TnT but it's still Taiko mode in osu!.Sakura wrote:
Which game?
I really don't agree that this is the same argument but let's assume that it is the same. Even if it is the same, people participating in the discussion are different and people will be affected are different. Previous decisions in other community might be a good reference but we don't need to end this with the same conclusion.Sakura wrote:
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
At least in osu standard there were lots of mappers who want custom skinning enabled, but in this thread, even major Taiko mappers are not that supportive...
What i'm saying is, that if you dont want to use custom hitsounds in taiko you're free to not do so, but you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them.
If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?
If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?
ok, I don't know if you guys really get what I mean or even watch my comment before
I restate it here
1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!
I restate it here
1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!