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Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)

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MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?

Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )

For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
Which game?

peppy wrote:

Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!.
The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game. And wanting to forcefully change that so your map can sound BETTER?
Is that not what modding is for? "I mapped my song this way because I interpret it this way with its current position in space and time, so I reject any suggestion that can make it better."

MMzz wrote:

Even if we did do this it wouldn't work our very well, with the way people map we would have rediculous unorganized drum beats going around the whole map that have zero relation to the song. (Or whatever hitsound you choose to use) If you go and look at most ranked/approved Metal/Rock songs with a taiko map, and just try to imagine a snare on every kat, (or better yet go put some custom sounds in your taiko skin and see for yourself) You'll notice how unorganized and terrible it will sound. I can throw so many map examples at you it's not even funny.
( and no the modding process WILL NOT FIX THIS. )
And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?

MMzz wrote:

For this to even work you would have to follow the drums to their exact point. And with the amount of mappers we have on the side of NOT haveing the use of custom hits, that will leave the new mappers to try and use custom sounds, and it will be awful really cause they have no idea what they are doing.
Again, is this not modding is for?

MMzz wrote:

At least with the taiko sounds they blend to a point where you can freestyle around the song and you will almost always have a nice freestyle beat to the song. (If you know what you are doing of course)
So, can you say that there is zero chance of another hitsound set that is capable of achieving the same freestyle beat and flow?
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

those wrote:

And so you think sticking to the default, authentic sounds will magically make it sound organized and better?
I never said such a thing. I'm trying to point out that if people use custom hits it's just going to get WORSE.

those wrote:

Again, is this not modding is for?
Modding taiko, that's a funny joke.


@Sakura, go get your taiko playcount up some so I can take what you are saying seriously.


Why don't you guys actually read my post before going off on how bad my opinion is because I think custom hits are stupid.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
tl;dr:

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
^Exactly what I think.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

tl;dr:

MMzz wrote:

This shouldn't even be up for discussion, the taiko drum sound is one of the main aspects/appeals to the game.
^Exactly what I think.
+1
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura wrote:

Which game?
Well yeah it's not TnT but it's still Taiko mode in osu!.

Sakura wrote:

The arguments you guys are throwing out is the same arguments that osu!standard players throw out for a SB,Skin,BG toggle, yet we are not banning the use of those in standard mapping. The key point here isn't "Standard mapping" it's "Same arguments"
I really don't agree that this is the same argument but let's assume that it is the same. Even if it is the same, people participating in the discussion are different and people will be affected are different. Previous decisions in other community might be a good reference but we don't need to end this with the same conclusion.

At least in osu standard there were lots of mappers who want custom skinning enabled, but in this thread, even major Taiko mappers are not that supportive...
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
What i'm saying is, that if you dont want to use custom hitsounds in taiko you're free to not do so, but you dont need to enforce it on mappers that actually want to use them.

If as you say no one will use them anyways, i don't see this as a problem?
matthewhln
247 posts
Joined March 2010
matthewhln
ok, I don't know if you guys really get what I mean or even watch my comment before

I restate it here

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself

In conclusion, there is no point for arguing!
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
The whole argument is pointless, because the suggested aren't even thinking about the points lepidon and MMzz bring along.
They generally overread them, pick context less stuff, comment them in a provoking way and refuse to understand the reasons behind this.
Freedom to all mappers, that's your purpose, Sakura. Go nuke all rules.


I am really pissed since Sakura and those try to get a change to a folk to heavily is against it.
And don't come along with your osz2 stuff. Seriously, hindering people to delete gameplay elements to make everyone play on an equal base is WAY different from allowing stuff, that brings out only shitmaps.

Trust us, we discussed this for so long, and we know why we decided this.

I should hinder myself to not get offensive, so far.

for gods sake, read and kill ALL ARGUMENTS given and not only turn the word in our mouth just to make them easier to shot down.

Sakuras stupid question of 'which game' is one of this provocative stupid behavior.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Then state it clearly.
Why is using custom hitsounds bad for this game?

Give us all a reason that I haven't fired back at yet.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Read the discussion of when you started suggesting this.
Quote them all, kill them all.
Then we proceed.
And also kill the arguments, that killed yours.
I refuse to repeat all of us for the 6th time already.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
So you choose to speak like you're a god, too. You still haven't responded about the prepared piano.

In addition, for those interested, there has been no discussion about custom hitsounds until ztrot and I posted earlier.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
I did. And others did too. Nothing more to add here. I don't act as a god, I just show you that you are not killing every argument and just picking the ones who aren't supposed to be the main ones, at all.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Luna wrote:

Okay, since the prepared piano seems to be your favourite argument...
Your point is basically that the prepared piano is also a piano - and while that is technically true, they are used on completely different occasions. They work differently, they are basically two seperate instruments despite LOOKING identical. It's not just that they work for different pieces of music, they quite frankly don't play the same.
It's not my favourite argument, but it is one that makes a lot of sense.

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.

Let us now imagine a prepared piano. Instead of using screws to stick between the strings, you're now using a nail that is thicker in width, and is driven deeper into the piano. The performance will not sound the same, but some will argue that it may sound better than the piano prepared with screws. Conversely, some may say that it does not sound as great.

But if you compare that to what we have now, we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance.

Luna wrote:

Taiko is a game, it's about gameplay. So forcing what amounts to a different instrument on the player is a severe change in gameplay - even if it still looks like the same game from the outside (just like a prepared piano looks like a regular one).
It is about gameplay. The don and kat represents a low tone and a high tone, respectively. They still look the same (you have red/blue, we're not talking about creating taiko note skins yet), but the timbre of the don/kat is now changed. However, with my new rule suggestion, don will still represent the low tone, and kat will still represent the high tone. And I emphasize again: we have a greater audience saying that it doesn't sound as great even before listening to the performance. Why is that?
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.

That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.
There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same

those wrote:

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
EXACTLY.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Luna wrote:

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?

Luna wrote:

That's basically the gameplay that I mean - it's not about what SOUNDS better but what PLAYS better. It's certainly possible to map Taiko in a way that sounds better with custom hitsounds but if they are forced on the players, it violates the core gameplay > artistic freedom rule.
You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.

Luna wrote:

There is nothing wrong with suggesting your hitsounds (in the beatmap's thread for example, or by setting a preferred skin) but forcing them is too much of a change in general gameplay IMO
There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

Its like a rock band perfoming an orchestra
It will NOT be the same
We already agreed on this.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

those wrote:

Let us imagine there is a piece of music composed for prepared piano. If you play it on a regular piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a prepared piano. As well, if you play a piece composed for a regular piano on a prepared piano, it will not sound as correct as if it was played on a regular piano.
EXACTLY.
You will map something with conga hitsound
so the player will be FORCED to play with conga hitsounds because with the default ones it will not make any sense
Will be very different
So, if the player doesn't accepts that annoying thing, he doesn't play the map because it turned bad with default hitsounds (I mean taiko hitsounds). We want maps for everyone, right?
You're being cruel if you want to force it
It's like forcing taiko players to play converted standard maps
Some will be great and some will be SHIT
Damn, convert a "different" taiko into taiko isn't a good idea.
And I know, most of the taiko players will play it with default and will play a weird map.
Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,815 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

I can't argue about anything right now. /learning
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

those wrote:

Luna wrote:

Give a prepared piano to a normal piano player.
He'll be able to play it because it still technically works the same way, but he probably won't be very comfortable using it since it has to be used in a different way.
And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
I really don't want to learn how to play again
Inb4 "Its not learn again, it is accustomed."
For me it is.
Why do you want to force it?
I'm sure at least 90% of us doesn't want it
Sounds like you (and some other people) want it just to turn your maps better for YOU (I may be wrong but that's what I can see)
So please, DO IT, but don't rank it, please.
Do it, share with everyone on #taiko
Some will have lots of fun playing it and some will not. Deal with it.
Turn it rankable doesn't make sense.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

those wrote:

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.

those wrote:

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.

those wrote:

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.
With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.

those wrote:

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.

those wrote:

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.

As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.

We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,815 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@Luanny:
SPOILER

OnosakiHito wrote:

Also you forgot what else peppy said. He didn't disagree that people should agree to suggestions, am I right? This means the community is an importand factor here, so suggestiopns can't be decided by only two or three people(especially by people with less experience).

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Even without those hitsounds it would be fun and as you can see there is no agreedment yet.
Due to this, and because of many other said reasons, I decide(due to opinions of US) not to change this rule. This is my, or better I should say our absolute decision right now.

If you have a valid reason feel free to post them later again, but for now there is nothing more to say.

Nothing will happen before I/we don't get valid reasons or the community agrees itself to it.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

OnosakiHito wrote:

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
Hi matthewhln. Excuse us for ignoring you.

matthewhln wrote:

1. Custom hitsound will affect NOTHING if you use taiko skin for taiko mode
This is what we are trying to avoid. This is similar to "custom skins will affect nothing if you delete skin elements in the folder".

matthewhln wrote:

2. Hitsound Volume can be specify in a SINGLE difficult
We don't mention anything about hitsound volume, but the timbre of the hitsound itself.

matthewhln wrote:

3. For people who do not use taiko skin, they give up their right on using taiko hitsound (I think they don't care anyway) so why do we care?
Yes, this is true, and we know that. If you want to use the Taiko hitsound on a map that doesn't have custom hitsounds, use the game default ones.

matthewhln wrote:

4. Original hitsound in taiko mode is NOT taiko hitsound, if you care on original hitsound, you are annoying yourself
I'm not quite sure I understand you here. Can you explain this a bit more?

OnosakiHito wrote:

2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?
That's like asking me why I didn't know how to use calculus when I was 5. It was available at an earlier point in my life, but I didn't figure its importance to me until now.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
As interesting as this all is I've been reading that last few pages I can see one thing that does really need to be addressed and that is
"if a map is going to have custom hitsounds for a taiko diff they must follow a set example and must be drum related." As for forcing taiko only sounds that rule could never hold up because you are basing this rule off a skin and not something that comes with osu as stock so really there isn't much more to discuss your only wasting time with this instead lets all go be productive or detail some other things that need to be sorted out in taiko rules.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
ztrot missed the point. You lost.
Reread the last post of me and lepidon. Then retry. Thanks.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
your point doesn't make sense?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Your neither. We aren't basing our arguments on a specific skin.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

And what's wrong with being accustomed to playing either way? Is it not worth the time?
Well, if you play a prepared piano you want to play guitar on a piano.
Taiko is not O2jam. And if you play Taiko, you play a taiko simulation game. Replacing the "taiko simulation" out of the "game" is missing any purpose of this game mode.
Compare to a flight simulator game that requires you to complete a course with a certain choice of aircraft. It's not a "B-17 Flying Fortress Simulator Game", for example, it's a flight simulator game.


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

You speak as if default taiko hitsounds plays better 100% of the time. If that was true, then sure. But it's not.
Lacks of examples. Empty assumption here.
You mean by you, right? You have no audio evidence to back up your claim that taiko hitsounds are always better (and neither do I proving otherwise, so this point is going nowhere).


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

There's nothing wrong with playing with default hitsounds, either. If you don't want to play with hitsounds the mapper feels are appropriate, get rid of them.
With osz2, this is not possible anymore. And you know it.
So you're forced to deal with that the mapper thinks is appropriate. Then you gotta get your map to +8, pass through many, many mods, get a MAT bubble, and pass through the BAT to get it ranked. If it's actually inappropriate somebody will have pointed it out, more than likely.


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

Mapping is an art. There are rules to be followed, and this should not be one of them.
Well, you know that mapping osu!standard contains more art than Taiko. Taiko is way more a simulation to the music. osu! relys more on creating an art over an existing music. Taiko doesn't.
Mappers should not be limited to the four hitsounds of your current dkDK to express their own musical interpretation.


Loctav wrote:

those wrote:

Well of course. If you choose to use the default hitsounds instead of the custom hitsounds, you'll be playing a prepared piano piece on a regular piano. I'd be the one providing you with the prepared piano to make it sound more correct, but you'll be the one choosing to play it on a regular piano, and it will sound weird to you. Whose choice is that, exactly?
As already said, Taiko is a drumming game. If you are focusing your maps on something different than the drumbeat while mapping, you do something wrong. Every map contains a hypothetic "drumline", even piano-only songs.
And I can't imagine custom hitsounds that sound "more correct" than the current ones, since the current ones are providing the common used deep sound and high sounds.
Lack of examples. Empty assumption here.


Loctav wrote:

As lepidon already said, everyone should choose on their own, on which "drumming instrument" they want to play taiko - so they modify their own skin.
But using "map enforced ones" (which happens due to osz2) are the wrong way.
Especially because you can play appropiate drums on every piece of music. Practically there exist no drumming instrument that sounds better than another.

We killed map-wise custom hitsounds so everyone can use their own ones with their skin. Players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own drum they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the "KATs" and "DONs" according to the song. Practically there exists no drum, that serves better DONs and KATs to a mapset.
I was not about to compare this to standard mode, but there's no way I cannot.
According to you, players are supposed to theoretically 'select their own skin they want to use on this/all songs'. Mappers are not there to decide that. They are supposed to place the objects (circles, sliders, spinners) according to the song. Practically there exists no skin, that serves better skin elements [as the default skin] to a mapset.

OnosakiHito wrote:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
Looks like you've been highlighting the wrong words of ppy, OnosakiHito.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
wait so your saying don't add custom sounds and make players make changes to there skin? I'm pretty sure hitsounds are for a mapper to decide
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.

If I want to play DragonForce with Kongas, let me do that. But don't force me to do so. (extreme, sarcastic example, don't reuse for further argumentation)

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.

Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)

@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.

and well:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
Mid-ground. Maps are allowed custom samples PROVIDED they are drum related if a mapper whats to add customs that is his choice not ours.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Loctav wrote:

Well, osu!standard is a visual way to express music, Taiko is an auditive one.
And if you have ever played drums in real life, you may have learned (by music theory) that all drums are basing the same tones. (especially the ones who only serve two tones (like Taikos here))
And that they all fit to every song. So it's no empty assumption.
Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.

Loctav wrote:

Aren't we actually mapping for the players? And not for expressing our unfulfilled desire to create art if we fail elsewhere?
Seriously, the players want pick their drumming instrument, let them do.
It's not so gameplay relevant that we couldn't let them decide on their own. If they think Kongas are appealing to DragonForce music, PLEAASE LET THEM DO THAT - and don't try to enforce hitsounds to maps.
We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?
Also, though authentic DONKAT (let's refer to these as DONKAT) for the purpose of this discussion, may be fitting, who is to say another set won't be more or less fitting? Is it not up to the mapper to decide and up to mods to suggest with reasons otherwise?

Loctav wrote:

Have you ever tried changing the hitsounds in your skin to something way more appropiate? In my eyes, every drum can fit to every song. So there is no need for custom hitsounds and everyone should select on their own (via their skin)
If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).

Loctav wrote:

@ztrot: Quit thinking in osu!standard mapping.
But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.
Aplus
34 posts
Joined July 2010
Aplus
Who gives a shit, its 1 map, if you don't want to play a map with fucking custom sounds then don't play the map... easy as that... pussies.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

OnosakiHito wrote:

You may continue with the discussion about this piano example. But I have two question.

1. Did I miss something or has been matthewhln ignored again? What he said has a new dimension and needs some new arguments on both sites.
2.those, tell me please why this didn't come into your mind earlier? When the taiko rules were not avaible you had the possibilitys to use your own custom hitsounds but didn't do it at all. No one of you. Why now?

I can't argue about anything right now. /learning
1. Nope i haven't missed it, in fact he has always brought up good points that YOU guys are ignoring.

2. Even tho this question is towards those i'll answer it: Just because something is allowed doesn't mean people will use it, as i stated earlier you guys are free to do whatever you want with what your maps, rules only state what people arent allowed to do.

Anyways what i really want is a clear reason why the hitsounds cannot be customized that follows the following:

It is not a personal preference: i.e. I only like the Taiko hitsounds. I cannot play without Taiko hitsounds.

Allowing it breaks the game: i.e glitches, crashes, etc.

Allowing it makes it unreadable: i.e. Cannot see the colors of the notes, notes become invisible (this could be under glitches).

It is not TnT / Authentic related: i.e. Those are the Taiko sounds, that's how it works in TnT, it stops being Taiko without those sounds (fwiw some taiko games have other hitsounds as selectable options)

If you think you can cover a reason that follows these i don't see this rule serving any purpose.

Edit: Also i didnt read ztrot's post earlier, but i do agree with that, in fact is what i've been proposing from the very beginning.
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun

Loctav wrote:

peppy wrote:

[...]The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
I just bolded every important word now. What is important here is way too subjective to be discussed here. Quit this sentence, finally.
Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.

There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.

You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?

I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.

I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.
Last edited by dkun , edited 1 time in total.
Aplus
34 posts
Joined July 2010
Aplus
I can't believe you people take the time to discuss this for 8 pages long but can't take the time to even try the song.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Sakura may reread, too. Give it a try.


dkun wrote:

Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.

There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.

You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?

I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.

I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.

It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right. But right now, we somehow can't agree to something. Both sides have their valid point and apparantly both sides are having completely different views of this. We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.

---

Still editing X___X

those wrote:

Okay. So if all drums fit to all songs, why is it right for you to assume another set of drums won't fit a particular song? I do play the drums, and I'm quite capable of seeing that a simple kick/snare fits a lot of stuff, for example.
Because I oppose giving mappers the freedom the players will lack of.

those wrote:

We are mapping for the players the best representation of the music in our eyes, are we not? If something is poorly represented, or can use improvements, whether it be skin/hitsound/positioning in time and space, wouldn't those suggestions be taken into consideration?
Also, though authentic DONKAT (let's refer to these as DONKAT) for the purpose of this discussion, may be fitting, who is to say another set won't be more or less fitting? Is it not up to the mapper to decide and up to mods to suggest with reasons otherwise?
We never denied that. We just deny, that this is decided by the mapper, what fits the best. The donkat placement self is way enough to "represent the music in the mappers eye". Since every drum fits the same, the donkat placement will be the same on every sound sampleset. On which drums the "notechart" is played should be selected by the players.

those wrote:

If I can change my own hitsounds via skin to something more appropriate, why would I not want to apply that to the song I am mapping? Even if there is no need, there should still be that option available for custom hitsounds, since "every drum can fit to every song" (and thus you shouldn't have difficulty playing it).
Because you kill the option for "every drum" when forcing it to "only one drum"

those wrote:

But osu!standard and Taiko mapping do have their similarities, so you cannot dismiss standard mapping.
They do, because they are both rhythm game. We never doubted that. But the focus of the game modes are different.
Last edited by Loctav , edited 3 times in total.
dkun
osu! Alumni
4,486 posts
Joined August 2009
dkun

Loctav wrote:

Sakura may reread, too. Give it a try.


dkun wrote:

Define MID-GROUND, Loctav.

There are TWO sides. BOTH sides must agree on SOMETHING. You are not being constructive, you are parroting your so called POINTS over and over making yourself look like an idiot.

You quoted something, why don't you READ it before using it?

I hope you take something from this post. Just because you all play Taiko doesn't mean you OWN it. For all the staff team cares, they don't need to listen to a SINGLE thing you say.

I hope my bold and size of font expressed how I feel about how stupid this all is.

It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right. But right now, we somehow can't agree to something. Both sides have their valid point and apparantly both sides are having completely different views of this. We don't say we own that game mode, we are trying to explain you our reasons for our doings.
You imply with all your words that you do own it. I don't think we all worship peppy like a God in this thread, do we? You're just taking that out of the wrong context. Both sides have their valid points, but you fail to recognize the points of the opposing side. We're just trying to explain our reasonings, yet you just throw the same invalid crap back, as I said earlier, p a r r o t i n g!
Aplus
34 posts
Joined July 2010
Aplus
"It did. I jsut don't like the way they worship peppys word like the ones from a god. Sure, he's right."

This should have been the end of the discussion.
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