Just bring the voting system back
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Let's talk about Loved.
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Yeah agreed with probox... I mean, somebody put some perfectly rankable tv sizes and god-awful maps that nobody loves there!
I'd say bring back the voting system. You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.
I'd say bring back the voting system. You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.
thisMonstrata wrote:
I would recommend a score system where each map must attain a certain "score" to be eligible for qualification.
Let's say,
1 Favorite = 20 points
1 Star Priority = 10 points
To be eligible for Loved, you must get at least 1000 points.
If the player base loves the map, then they usually express this through favoriting the map.
If the mapping community loves a map, then they usually express this through starring the map.
Combining both favorites and star priority into one score system allows mappers more freedom to get their map Loved. They can either get support from the player base, or they can get support from the mapping community, or a mixture of both. Of course, we can shift points around later, or even logarithmatize the point system to have diminishing returns for # of favourites and # of star priority.
THe current SP system only benefits active modders currently. Not all mappers also mod, actually some of the best mappers don't do a lot of modding at all (see RLC Skystar ProBox handsome etc...) so they rely on the mapping community to promote their stuff. I hope we can find a balance through integrating # of favorites into Loved eligibility, not just Loved requirement. Currently # of favorites is useless above 30, while SP is useless above 100. Removing a dual requirement allows mappers to overlook one area (perhaps # of SP, if the mapper is not a known mapper or modder) through a significantly higher value in another (say # of favorites) and vice versa.
Eraser wrote:
You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.
I do not agree about this, if you're an unknown mapper, love section is a great way to promote your work.
The use of kudosu was interesting because it forced you to mod a lot to have your beatmap loved. I think it's fair because you get rewarded for helping the beatmapping community.
(encouraging modding is great thing tho).
If you're unknown then your maps aren't loved and they need to gtfo being viable for the category. Such a stupid argument.Ovoui wrote:
Eraser wrote:
You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.
I do not agree about this, if you're an unknown mapper, love section is a great way to promote your work.
The use of kudosu was interesting because it forced you to mod a lot to have your beatmap loved. I think it's fair because you get rewarded for helping the beatmapping community.
(encouraging modding is great thing tho).
People definitely need to understand that the relationship should go: popular -> loved; not: loved -> popular
I understand that using kudos encourages modding, but that doesn't make it GOOD. If we made it so that you had to purchase retries with kudosu in game I'm sure we would see an increase in the amount of mods, but that's also the worst idea ever. Kudos need their value to come from within the system in which they are awarded (the ranking system) not from being tagged onto some other unrelated topic.
Making great map which deserved to be loved by the community and being unknown is compatible.
I didn't see your edit btw
I didn't see your edit btw
Yeah sorry, I posted before I finished thinking.Ovoui wrote:
Making great map which deserved to be loved by the community and being unknown is compatible.
I didn't see your edit btw
If popularity is what you seek, then go for ranked. Loved is for maps that are loved by the community, doesn't matter good or bad, easy or hard. And the first step to be loved is to gain popularity.
Don't make loved the second and easier ranked section please. I don't want to see a regular pp jump map from an unknown mapper go there just because they can't get some bn to check on it.
Don't make loved the second and easier ranked section please. I don't want to see a regular pp jump map from an unknown mapper go there just because they can't get some bn to check on it.
I definitely think this is an issue that needs to be addressed, especially if from now on having favourites on a map will play a bigger role for the loved section and both mappers and players will be encouraged to do so. I usually rarely favourite maps, and I'm already at 81 favs, considering the enourmous amount of maps which are currently submitted 100 is definitely way too low and I can see it being a problem in the long run for the loved section.Yusomi wrote:
This new loved system treats favourites as if they are just freely given out. I think the cap of 100 should be increased, or a new favouriting system is introduced if this new loved system actually happens.
Based on this and the current state of maps in the loved section I would like to ask everyone advocating changes to the current system, especially those that are aiming to raise the map quality in the section by one way or the other:Ephemeral wrote:
Our thoughts in mind when making Loved were not to introduce a listing that contains high-skill, high-acclaim maps that were otherwise unsuitable for ranking, but rather to provide an alternate method for mappers with content that was widely appreciated regardless of what difficulty level or paradigm it was made under.
I'm not sure that pursuing a return to the same curated voting that started off Loved is particularly helpful - though if there is such a high demand for curated content in that regard, we could look at setting up something else to achieve the same end.
1. Favorites are already instrumentalised for loving maps now. They are given out with the only incentive that a map can get loved although it may not be one of your favourite map. Do you really want to completely invalidate the meaning favorites had in the last 10 years of osu! by inflating the requirement like that?
2. Assuming the loved maps were now required to be unrankable by design as proposed by Shiirn:
What is supposed to happen to the maps in loved that don't fulfill that requirement? Unlove, graveyard? Keep them? Both options are bullshit so you would better come up with a different one that doesn't make the people who put in effort to get their map loved feel betrayed.
Well.. there are a lot of posts and I wanted to reply to all, more or less, but rip.
The post I agree the most with is Shiirn's: the Loved section is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead. This is damn lame.
The proposal in the OP is quite interesting too, but not wide enough. Let me explain why...
As the proposal is set now, we have two sides (one from modders, one from players) that need to be raised to a certain value to make the map Loved.
This is good and I like it, because it means that a more varied part of the community agrees on a certain map.
What I not agree with is the fact that one mapper can simply shot many stars on it or the fact that many players can totally outclass modders and get the SP down to 25 only (which is really really low)
My counter-proposal for this would be to make the first SP requirement to be 75SP and decrease it to 50 using the formula provided in the op, this way we are sure modders are not completely wiped out by players.
On the other hand, make it so that every modder can shot at most 10 or 15 stars as someone already suggested. This way we can avoid a single modder to hold the power.
These are simply fixes to make things return to the concept that the COMMUNITY should love the map, and not a few people (I truly laughed at idke's proposal tbh)
(1000 favourites = insta Loved status seems totally fine, since that's quite a big portion of people imo)
The other thing I would like to see fixed is what maps actually get loved.
As Shiirn said, any map meeting the requirements passes. The solution for this is simply: either make the QAT, or maybe even the Spotlights team, take a look at the maps meeting the requirements and judge whether they are unrankable or not, because making perfectly rankable maps pass to the Loved category looks totally wrong here.
Last thing is about the favourites system mentioned just above this post: it should change if favourites start being an important part of the Loved processing.
Make the Loved category be truly for loved maps please, not for lazy mappers not being able to find BNs (no, more BNs is not the solution lol)
The post I agree the most with is Shiirn's: the Loved section is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead. This is damn lame.
The proposal in the OP is quite interesting too, but not wide enough. Let me explain why...
As the proposal is set now, we have two sides (one from modders, one from players) that need to be raised to a certain value to make the map Loved.
This is good and I like it, because it means that a more varied part of the community agrees on a certain map.
What I not agree with is the fact that one mapper can simply shot many stars on it or the fact that many players can totally outclass modders and get the SP down to 25 only (which is really really low)
My counter-proposal for this would be to make the first SP requirement to be 75SP and decrease it to 50 using the formula provided in the op, this way we are sure modders are not completely wiped out by players.
On the other hand, make it so that every modder can shot at most 10 or 15 stars as someone already suggested. This way we can avoid a single modder to hold the power.
These are simply fixes to make things return to the concept that the COMMUNITY should love the map, and not a few people (I truly laughed at idke's proposal tbh)
(1000 favourites = insta Loved status seems totally fine, since that's quite a big portion of people imo)
The other thing I would like to see fixed is what maps actually get loved.
As Shiirn said, any map meeting the requirements passes. The solution for this is simply: either make the QAT, or maybe even the Spotlights team, take a look at the maps meeting the requirements and judge whether they are unrankable or not, because making perfectly rankable maps pass to the Loved category looks totally wrong here.
Last thing is about the favourites system mentioned just above this post: it should change if favourites start being an important part of the Loved processing.
Make the Loved category be truly for loved maps please, not for lazy mappers not being able to find BNs (no, more BNs is not the solution lol)
Why exactly wouldn't they want their maps to be loved? Take a look at Charles' skeleton map for example, I'm pretty sure he doesn't mind having that map loved even though he drifted away from the community and game itself. The point of loved (or at least as it was suggested by the community before the category existed) was to give the old, classic graved maps that couldn't be ranked in any way get finally the place they deserved (biggest examples would be Groundhog and deltaMAX, and to be honest I don't think Takuma would've been able to submit it for loved as he's been away for quite some time). It feels a bit unfair that maps like Moskau and Konbini can't get loved because of 1. the current requirements; 2. because their respective mappers are inactive, even though the maps were exactly the reason why the section was created in the first place.Ephemeral wrote:
What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?
This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?
At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?
I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.
There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.
About the other points, I believe jesse and Shiirn already said everything I had to say. It's sad to currently see perfectly rankable maps with 20 pages of mods get loved because "the mapper got tired of looking for mods" or the fact that some mappers are giving 50+ SP to their own maps so they get loved easily (ALIEN, Another Lie's map). If you want kudosu to be relevant, then go do something with ModdingV2 or actually make Kudosu/Mapper Ranking relevant again, bring some rewards to people who mod, I don't know, man, just don't ruin a section because kudosu isn't as useful as it could be.
I agree with the points based system. It will enable both popular graveyarded maps from beatmappers that have left to become loved, as well as those willing to contribute a massive amount to the modding community in order to give their own maps a leaderboard. It's basically a win-win.
Topic Starter
It would seem that there is a big push for Loved to return to limited-criteria curated content - namely that it includes only maps that are both wildly popular, and are limited in some way or another from being ranked normally.
I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place. Perhaps limiting the total SP contribution from one person is part of this. Being able to add maps to Loved was kind of the prevailing reward planned for kudosu, at least in the short term, so removing that would require it to be replaced with something else entirely.
I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place. Perhaps limiting the total SP contribution from one person is part of this. Being able to add maps to Loved was kind of the prevailing reward planned for kudosu, at least in the short term, so removing that would require it to be replaced with something else entirely.
You had me when you said mapping community but lost me when you said modding community. The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved. As others have pointed out a lot of the more acclaimed mappers don't even mod much to begin with and hence do not get any benefit from SP being part of the system.Ephemeral wrote:
the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.
Topic Starter
As mentioned earlier (and in the OP), the crystallization of their time investment (SP) means very little for actually influencing the ranking cycle at the moment. Beyond preparing maps for Ranked itself, they receive very little in the way of reward for essentially providing the rest of the community with content to enjoy.chainpullz wrote:
You had me when you said mapping community but lost me when you said modding community. The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved. As others have pointed out a lot of the more acclaimed mappers don't even mod much to begin with and hence do not get any benefit from SP being part of the system.Ephemeral wrote:
the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.
if want to have both sp and curated sets going in loved, then have like, 5 slots in a vote for curated and 5 slots for sp/fav maps, then people vote
eg
1. curated old map
2. curated 10* map
3. curated map etc
4. curated map
5. curated map
6. +100 sp evening sv map
7. +100 sp song compilation
8. +100 sp map
9. +100 sp map
10. +100 sp map
community votes on what they want from there. old mappers and sp shooters both get loved from this. alternately could just have it so curated and sp sets are on different voting lists so they don't compete with each other
eg
1. curated old map
2. curated 10* map
3. curated map etc
4. curated map
5. curated map
6. +100 sp evening sv map
7. +100 sp song compilation
8. +100 sp map
9. +100 sp map
10. +100 sp map
community votes on what they want from there. old mappers and sp shooters both get loved from this. alternately could just have it so curated and sp sets are on different voting lists so they don't compete with each other
i dont really agree with the concept of dumping a whole lot of kds onto a set for it to be eligible just for the voting process, just for a not-at-all-guaranteed chance to get your set loved
what if your map fails the vote? 100sp down the toilet?
what if your map fails the vote? 100sp down the toilet?
Yes, and that is an issue. With the ranked category. The core of the current issue with the loved category is that we are letting major issues with the ranked category spill into the loved category. There needs to be a line drawn and that is what seems to be getting lost in all this fixation about points/voting.Ephemeral wrote:
As mentioned earlier (and in the OP), the crystallization of their time investment (SP) means very little for actually influencing the ranking cycle at the moment.
Due to the more objective nature of the ranked category and the need for strict rules/guidelines there are maps that are not rankable because they would set bad precedents that would lead to an overall decrease in map quality (not that I think too highly of the current cut/tv size mapping meta at the moment). Though sad because some masterpieces are hence unrankable, this is a completely necessary thing to do and is not really a problem with the ranking system. The loved category exists to provide a home for these maps.
It also has the opportunity to provide a home for maps that are loved by the community but were never pushed forward for ranking, perhaps because the original mapper is long gone, or because the mapper would rather let the map grave than make a spread for it.
While it should certainly be acceptable for a mapper to aim for loved with a map of the former type, the mapper should have no say in whether a map of the latter type gets loved otherwise loved and ranked will overlap in undesirable ways.
ha that's a funny joke good onechainpullz wrote:
Due to the more objective nature of the ranked category and the need for strict rules/guidelines
Topic Starter
Okay, we pulled up some stats and spoke for a bit based on the feedback people have given us here, and we've come up with the following thresholds per gamemode based on the statistics of gamemode distribution among players (for reference, it is 77% osu!, 16% osu!mania, 4% osu!catch and 3% osu!taiko from users active within the past month):
Entering a map into Loved will cost 50SP across all modes.
Entering a map into Loved will also require the following favorites per dominant gamemode (where the dominant gamemode is the set with the highest requirements below):
osu!: 100
osu!taiko: 10
osu!catch: 10
osu!mania: 30
The SP requirement will be reduced by 1 every X favorites above the base favourites (down to a minimum of 25SP):
osu!: 16
osu!taiko: 2
osu!catch: 2
osu!mania: 4
This should be fair and representative of general population across all gamemodes, and at the very least, fairer than the current requirements for maps that are not osu!. Multimode mapsets may be a bit of a pain, but we'll see how they go.
We will also conduct voting for legacy beatmaps with high favourite count where the mapper may no longer be available to submit the maps for Loved themselves. This may be tied into Spotlights in the form of a "vintage Spotlight" occurring every few months or on certain dates of the year, complete with concurrent voting.
While I understand that keeping Loved exclusive is a concern for some users, it is important to note that we did not ever intend for it to be shrouded in the airs of exclusivity - the idea was to create an open category as an alternative means for mappers to get their work recognized and playable, for those who produce content that is not designed to fit within the Ranking Criteria. An avenue for curated content exists in the Spotlights - and we can certainly begin investing more resources and rewards into having maps featured by the Spotlights going forward.
Entering a map into Loved will cost 50SP across all modes.
Entering a map into Loved will also require the following favorites per dominant gamemode (where the dominant gamemode is the set with the highest requirements below):
osu!: 100
osu!taiko: 10
osu!catch: 10
osu!mania: 30
The SP requirement will be reduced by 1 every X favorites above the base favourites (down to a minimum of 25SP):
osu!: 16
osu!taiko: 2
osu!catch: 2
osu!mania: 4
This should be fair and representative of general population across all gamemodes, and at the very least, fairer than the current requirements for maps that are not osu!. Multimode mapsets may be a bit of a pain, but we'll see how they go.
We will also conduct voting for legacy beatmaps with high favourite count where the mapper may no longer be available to submit the maps for Loved themselves. This may be tied into Spotlights in the form of a "vintage Spotlight" occurring every few months or on certain dates of the year, complete with concurrent voting.
While I understand that keeping Loved exclusive is a concern for some users, it is important to note that we did not ever intend for it to be shrouded in the airs of exclusivity - the idea was to create an open category as an alternative means for mappers to get their work recognized and playable, for those who produce content that is not designed to fit within the Ranking Criteria. An avenue for curated content exists in the Spotlights - and we can certainly begin investing more resources and rewards into having maps featured by the Spotlights going forward.
Exclusivity is not necessarily the issue people take with it - it's the questionable nature of whether something belongs in the Loved category. Adding some curation requirements does not make it "exclusive", it simply makes the entire category more respectable. Be it either through voting, a few people "checking" maps, or some other step that involves actually looking at the map, something should be done to make sure that every Loved map is "Special" in some way. Otherwise, it's just a dumping ground for mappers that can't get the map ranked normally, popular songs with bad maps, or a mapper begging for favorites and dumping SP. Even with the new proposal.
The change you propose is nice and all, and backed by statistics, but the outliers that are just "normal maps" really taint the barrel. I'm sure everyone's aware of the good old rotten apple analogy.
When people look through the Loved category, they want to see uniqueness. Specialness. That hard-to-summarize quality that separates these maps from the peer-reviewed, highly specialized content control system the Ranked category has. Many maps in the section have this. But nowhere near "Most" of them.
They don't want to see otherwise normal maps like entire normal sets ("giving up on ranking") or four-minute regular maps that would just be a minor pain to make lower difficulties for ("lazy") or the like. They also don't really want to see actually crappy maps. (That crystallized set really stands out as being kind of full of shit, no hitsounding, no effort bullshit)
I understand that this is a much more major change than tweaking the thresholds of SP and Favorites, so I'm not surprised it was kind of politely pushed to the side, but it'd be nice to hear this kind of issue was being considered.
The change you propose is nice and all, and backed by statistics, but the outliers that are just "normal maps" really taint the barrel. I'm sure everyone's aware of the good old rotten apple analogy.
When people look through the Loved category, they want to see uniqueness. Specialness. That hard-to-summarize quality that separates these maps from the peer-reviewed, highly specialized content control system the Ranked category has. Many maps in the section have this. But nowhere near "Most" of them.
They don't want to see otherwise normal maps like entire normal sets ("giving up on ranking") or four-minute regular maps that would just be a minor pain to make lower difficulties for ("lazy") or the like. They also don't really want to see actually crappy maps. (That crystallized set really stands out as being kind of full of shit, no hitsounding, no effort bullshit)
I understand that this is a much more major change than tweaking the thresholds of SP and Favorites, so I'm not surprised it was kind of politely pushed to the side, but it'd be nice to hear this kind of issue was being considered.
Topic Starter
It is being considered, and I've said repeatedly that the demand for curated content (ie: exactly what you're asking for in regards to content that "belongs" in the communal expectations that the Loved category currently carries) is better undertaken elsewhere or in different domains rather than forcing the issue in the Loved category.
For example, Loved being open allows for maps that aren't that great to get in it. Curated content based on Loved maps (ie: the proposed "Vintage" spotlights) fulfills the need to have a way of marking or denoting truly excellent content within the category without closing it out to everyone else.
For example, Loved being open allows for maps that aren't that great to get in it. Curated content based on Loved maps (ie: the proposed "Vintage" spotlights) fulfills the need to have a way of marking or denoting truly excellent content within the category without closing it out to everyone else.
Adding another category-within-a-category seems kind of silly.
It'd just be another layer for the actually-aiming-to-have-interesting-maps-get-a-scoreboard-and-played maps to pass, except it'd have an even more esoteric set of entry requirements. People wouldn't want to go for Loved just to get Vintage or whatever due to the added level of risk. Loved would still be a dumping ground.
Right now there are four separate types of maps in the Loved category:
It'd just be another layer for the actually-aiming-to-have-interesting-maps-get-a-scoreboard-and-played maps to pass, except it'd have an even more esoteric set of entry requirements. People wouldn't want to go for Loved just to get Vintage or whatever due to the added level of risk. Loved would still be a dumping ground.
Right now there are four separate types of maps in the Loved category:
- 1. Maps that break some form of modern rule of rankability. Be it aesthetics, esoteric concept/theme, or outright breaking the rules for the sake of the song. This is what people look for.
- 2. Ridiculously high-difficulty maps under 5 minutes that are otherwise perfectly rankable. Can include songs that genuinely struggle to have lower difficulties, such as What The Cat.
- 3. Maps that are "dump sets", maps that are incomplete, low-effort, or otherwise just don't have the polish or focus necessary to get ranked. But totally could.
- 4. Maps that are completely normal but are either Loved because the mapper has given up on Ranking, or because it's a normal map that didn't reach the 5 minute drain time and the mapper can't be assed to fill the rest. The "effort to get loved" is less than the "effort to extend >5min or fill with other difficulties"
Topic Starter
It's not a real "category" perse (referring to Vintage), but rather a way of selecting the better maps in the category. Spotlights as a whole will be much more prevalent in osu! once lazer is complete, and it seems as if a good way to give them that initial traction would be to move the expectations for curated content away from Loved as a whole category, and into them instead.
Alright, let's add this to the list of "Stuff that'll be more relevant once lazer is complete" and call it a day, then.
I hope I'm not too late, but I'll dump everything on my mind.
I don't see why a map being ranked and a map being Loved have to be mutually exclusive. Aren't there plenty of maps out there already that are not only loved, but also are ranked? I'm probably projecting, but I think something like Freedom Dive should be Loved, even though its already ranked. It has 1000+ favorites, too. But for those Loved maps that can't be ranked, the warning with the "This Loved map will not give pp" can just flash before you play the map.
I agree with what several others have already said, including that the Loved category should be full of things that are genuinely loved, like a priceless treasure. That said, there could be two ways that a map can be Loved:
1. A point-based system, where a favorite counts as two points and a kudosu counts as one point. Additionally, any amount of kudosu from each user only counts once, only allowing anyone to contribute a maximum of three points to the map. I understand the important of kudosu, but allowing kudosu to have too much influence over whether a map enters Loved or not could be easily abused. Then, a map has to reach at least 250 points or so to be Loved.
2. A voting system, probably 2-4 times every year, allowing the community to put in any beatmap for entry and to vote on them. The primary purpose of this is to get loved older beatmaps that have little/no favorites and beatmaps with inactive creators to become Loved, if the community wants it.
There may be other ways that I'm not really thinking of, but any method of getting a beatmap into the Loved category should have a significant part of the community play a large role in determining the result and not by any small group of users.
That said, maybe there can also be a new category of beatmap, "Notable", to allow mappers who want exposure to get what they want. I'm not too confident about how this would work, but you could probably just rename the current Loved category to this and it'd be okay for a while. I think this would work because I am of the belief that the only reason Loved is a goal for mappers who want exposure is because its an entirely different category which much fewer maps than the Ranked & Approved category, allowing their work to stand out more against the incredible amount of ranked maps present. My belief could be entirely wrong, though.
I don't see why a map being ranked and a map being Loved have to be mutually exclusive. Aren't there plenty of maps out there already that are not only loved, but also are ranked? I'm probably projecting, but I think something like Freedom Dive should be Loved, even though its already ranked. It has 1000+ favorites, too. But for those Loved maps that can't be ranked, the warning with the "This Loved map will not give pp" can just flash before you play the map.
I agree with what several others have already said, including that the Loved category should be full of things that are genuinely loved, like a priceless treasure. That said, there could be two ways that a map can be Loved:
1. A point-based system, where a favorite counts as two points and a kudosu counts as one point. Additionally, any amount of kudosu from each user only counts once, only allowing anyone to contribute a maximum of three points to the map. I understand the important of kudosu, but allowing kudosu to have too much influence over whether a map enters Loved or not could be easily abused. Then, a map has to reach at least 250 points or so to be Loved.
2. A voting system, probably 2-4 times every year, allowing the community to put in any beatmap for entry and to vote on them. The primary purpose of this is to get loved older beatmaps that have little/no favorites and beatmaps with inactive creators to become Loved, if the community wants it.
There may be other ways that I'm not really thinking of, but any method of getting a beatmap into the Loved category should have a significant part of the community play a large role in determining the result and not by any small group of users.
That said, maybe there can also be a new category of beatmap, "Notable", to allow mappers who want exposure to get what they want. I'm not too confident about how this would work, but you could probably just rename the current Loved category to this and it'd be okay for a while. I think this would work because I am of the belief that the only reason Loved is a goal for mappers who want exposure is because its an entirely different category which much fewer maps than the Ranked & Approved category, allowing their work to stand out more against the incredible amount of ranked maps present. My belief could be entirely wrong, though.
Hi
Well.. even if I dont have "morality" to talk about (because I have a map in loved just because it was unranked many time ago and I was really tired of remapping), I wanna say my opinion:
The issue of perfectly rankable sets in loved section is responsibility of BNG, in the sense that they can push it to the ranking section yet!
As Eph said, loved is a good place to get some visibility right now.
I'm agree with that 30 favs is very low, and 75 favs feels more "relevant" for a loved map.
But I'm not agree with ignore SP, I think that limiting the amount of stars for person will avoid the abuse.
Well.. even if I dont have "morality" to talk about (because I have a map in loved just because it was unranked many time ago and I was really tired of remapping), I wanna say my opinion:
The issue of perfectly rankable sets in loved section is responsibility of BNG, in the sense that they can push it to the ranking section yet!
As Eph said, loved is a good place to get some visibility right now.
I'm agree with that 30 favs is very low, and 75 favs feels more "relevant" for a loved map.
But I'm not agree with ignore SP, I think that limiting the amount of stars for person will avoid the abuse.
Just lower the criteria if people think they are too high and bring voting back for old favorite maps that the creator has not intentions to update.This worked in the past and I don't see any problem using this method again. The problem is happening due to how ineffective the ranking system is right now but this will supposedly change when the new modding system goes live.
Also I don't see how 50SP + 100fav or 25SP +500fav is better than the current system.
Also I don't see how 50SP + 100fav or 25SP +500fav is better than the current system.
So is this 100fav / 50sp in effect now? What about maps that already had reached old loved map criteria like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/376203 for months ?
Also if this is in fact in effect, would be nice if this was announced since I only knew this by word of mouth.
Sorry in advance if this was cleared / ask before, I just could not find the answer.
Also if this is in fact in effect, would be nice if this was announced since I only knew this by word of mouth.
Sorry in advance if this was cleared / ask before, I just could not find the answer.
Topic Starter
It isn't in effect. We'll announce any changes we make to the system when/if we make them.
In my opinion, the first system, where people could vote for the next Loved maps was the best, I mean it had more sense than nowadays Loved maps.
I already received some message from my friends that was asking me if I could shoot some kudos and a fav on their maps. But to me this system doesn't create a Loved map, the true Loved maps was the first ones that got Loved.
That's just my point of view, maybe it got stopped because the people that manage this was probably busy, and I can understand it. (I'm sorry if the reason why the system changed is different from what I'm saying, to be honest, I didn't read the text explaining why the Loved system changed.)
Have a good day everyone
I already received some message from my friends that was asking me if I could shoot some kudos and a fav on their maps. But to me this system doesn't create a Loved map, the true Loved maps was the first ones that got Loved.
That's just my point of view, maybe it got stopped because the people that manage this was probably busy, and I can understand it. (I'm sorry if the reason why the system changed is different from what I'm saying, to be honest, I didn't read the text explaining why the Loved system changed.)
Have a good day everyone
The old voting system was bad because maps were chosen by the staff imo.
Maybe be a vote were people are free to submit their maps could be a good alternative idk.
Maybe be a vote were people are free to submit their maps could be a good alternative idk.
Topic Starter
The maps weren't chosen by the staff, actually. They were an aggregate of high favorite maps and random suggestions from a variety of "which map should be Loved" threads that were extremely popular at the time.
My suggestion would be making a section for pending maps that aim to be loved so lets say BN's or high level mappers can nominate them every set amount of time. Then people vote. Its a good way to ensure quality without using sp
well this is wat i think
i kinda agreed with Natsu's post
however, i think community votes is still necessary (preclude the maps dat doesnt rly good), and the maps required only 100 favs, and it can be nominated by anyone (consider the mappers already quit or w/e)
imo sp isnt rly necessary in loved, cuz loved maps supposed to be popular gravedyarded maps (but u can still replace favs with kds)
i kinda agreed with Natsu's post
however, i think community votes is still necessary (preclude the maps dat doesnt rly good), and the maps required only 100 favs, and it can be nominated by anyone (consider the mappers already quit or w/e)
imo sp isnt rly necessary in loved, cuz loved maps supposed to be popular gravedyarded maps (but u can still replace favs with kds)
The thread is too long and I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but in general, at least in my opinion the mapper should have no direct influence to if a map is loved or not. The point as I see it is that the loved section is supposed to be maps that the community loves, and then limiting one of those factors to not only be just a subset of the community (star rating), but also something the mapper themselves can directly manipulate kind of backwards. Letting the mapper have this control also makes it much easier to cop-out and "aim for loved" rather than actually going through with the ranking process. Loved shouldn't be an alternative to ranked, it should be specifically maps loved by the community. It shouldn't be a place to throw unrankable maps, or anything. Even if there is a good map using unrankable elements "aiming to get loved", the criteria for it to get there shouldn't just be "good, but unrankable", but also actually liked by a good portion of the community.
I think in general having some kind of preliminary voting for nomination, such as giving every player (or a subset if we want to go that route) a finite amount of votes on any map they love, then round up the maps with the most votes, and have a final voting round similar to what we had in the beginning could work. This would require implementing new functionality to the website or client though, as it needs to be something that's easy to do and also different from favorites, since people have been using favorites for a lot of things, and won't necessarily reflect what they love the most etc.
That's my pov anyway. I feel like the loved section right now feels more like an alternative to the ranked section where rules are much laxer, resulting in poor quality maps being loved, rather than what it truly should be; a reflection of maps the community deems good. In that sense, having maps that are already ranked in the loved section as well does make sense, if we think of it purely as a label for what the community enjoys, and not necessarily a completely different category.
I think in general having some kind of preliminary voting for nomination, such as giving every player (or a subset if we want to go that route) a finite amount of votes on any map they love, then round up the maps with the most votes, and have a final voting round similar to what we had in the beginning could work. This would require implementing new functionality to the website or client though, as it needs to be something that's easy to do and also different from favorites, since people have been using favorites for a lot of things, and won't necessarily reflect what they love the most etc.
That's my pov anyway. I feel like the loved section right now feels more like an alternative to the ranked section where rules are much laxer, resulting in poor quality maps being loved, rather than what it truly should be; a reflection of maps the community deems good. In that sense, having maps that are already ranked in the loved section as well does make sense, if we think of it purely as a label for what the community enjoys, and not necessarily a completely different category.
+1 What Cxu said, I'm all for the voting rounds.
And for voting, perhaps splitting into categories of mapping settings / (which is usually related to submit era) come to mind.
For example "2009" "2010" etc?
I'm right now wondering how an old loved map such as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/16987 could achieve the Loved status, because as far as I understand and I could be wrong, it currently won't?
Every now and then I am looking into the Loved section, and I notice certain maps made recently with far less favourites are in there while some golden oldies are still missing in my humble opinion.
Especially when you take the relativity into account, for example the map I mentioned was from a time when the community was much smaller in size and reaching 100 favourites in those days was a much bigger thing than nowadays.
Anyway, I love the initiative and I am looking very much forward on all developments of osu! in the future.
And for voting, perhaps splitting into categories of mapping settings / (which is usually related to submit era) come to mind.
For example "2009" "2010" etc?
I'm right now wondering how an old loved map such as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/16987 could achieve the Loved status, because as far as I understand and I could be wrong, it currently won't?
Every now and then I am looking into the Loved section, and I notice certain maps made recently with far less favourites are in there while some golden oldies are still missing in my humble opinion.
Especially when you take the relativity into account, for example the map I mentioned was from a time when the community was much smaller in size and reaching 100 favourites in those days was a much bigger thing than nowadays.
Anyway, I love the initiative and I am looking very much forward on all developments of osu! in the future.
Topic Starter
Time to tidy this up, I think.
The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).
It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.
I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).
It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.
I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
my opinion is relevant i swear i totally didn't come here cause i saw eph bitch on twitter
it would seem like a very easy idea to let the community decide which maps are loved or not through going to a qualification state (see what i did there) during where a map is open for play and after playing, people have to vote if they liked it or not (and not some arbitrary 1-10 scale that nobody will know how to use right) and if the map has a good enough positive/negative ratio, it gets loved.
seems like the most painless way to do things that gathers the biggest amount of data from players
someone fucking prevent me from entering these forums i keep giving my opinion on a game i have not touched in 2 years
it would seem like a very easy idea to let the community decide which maps are loved or not through going to a qualification state (see what i did there) during where a map is open for play and after playing, people have to vote if they liked it or not (and not some arbitrary 1-10 scale that nobody will know how to use right) and if the map has a good enough positive/negative ratio, it gets loved.
seems like the most painless way to do things that gathers the biggest amount of data from players
someone fucking prevent me from entering these forums i keep giving my opinion on a game i have not touched in 2 years
i'd only support a voting thing if there's something like a suggest cool maps to be put up for a voting instead of ephemeral randomly hitting up all the places in order to get a list of maps that have a lot of favourites
wasn't there someone volunteering to oversee a voting list like this anyways
if you have like a criteria that goes among the lines of
mapper or map should be graved for X or visibly abandoned
vastly higher favourite count for this thing
and someone to do like the shitty work involved with that sort of thing
i think that could work
given that i know how the numberrunning on kd requirements went down halving the thing seems pretty agreeable, though i doubt that the favourite thing lowering the kd requirement is going to be all that clear for everyone unless you include a fucking calculator in some very obvious place and adjust secretary-chon's worst nightmares accordingly if you do that
wasn't there someone volunteering to oversee a voting list like this anyways
if you have like a criteria that goes among the lines of
mapper or map should be graved for X or visibly abandoned
vastly higher favourite count for this thing
and someone to do like the shitty work involved with that sort of thing
i think that could work
given that i know how the numberrunning on kd requirements went down halving the thing seems pretty agreeable, though i doubt that the favourite thing lowering the kd requirement is going to be all that clear for everyone unless you include a fucking calculator in some very obvious place and adjust secretary-chon's worst nightmares accordingly if you do that
Topic Starter
Toy's mentioned on twitter that he'd like to help out, so I figure he'd be a good starting block.
I don't mean to be irrelevent but does it take really that long to get a map loved? I filled the form and sent a confirmation pm to Ephemeral on 18th March and nothing happened since :/
Topic Starter
The system we had in the past was very rudimentary and prone to missing people. I sorted out a case earlier today where someone had been missed for nearly three months. Toss me a PM if you're concerned and I'll look into it.
Topic Starter
Actually, scratch that. New idea.
Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.
Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.
Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.
Everybody wins.
Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.
Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.
Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.
Everybody wins.
so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked
and approved maps are just that approved via a process
and approved maps are just that approved via a process
hi am really late
im in the minority but i honestly don't like the concept of a higher favorite barrier because it limits many of the most creative maps there are. You could make an entirely new section if you really had to, similar to loved except the maps would be hand-selected with the goal being to expose/give leaderboards to maps that lack the popularity to make it to loved as you proposed it.
if you do bring back voting, please try to keep each batch of maps fairly similar in qualities and favorites. Then you can tell for sure if the selected maps truly are what people'd prefer in loved; as it was, a good map being put in a bad batch could ruin its chances of being voted in. Maybe have a theme for each round, like maps around a certain amount of favorites, jump/stream practice maps, meta-bending maps, etc.
also, have you considered putting all unranked maps used in world cups into loved? they've certainly proved their quality, and probably deserve a leaderboard, don't you think?
im in the minority but i honestly don't like the concept of a higher favorite barrier because it limits many of the most creative maps there are. You could make an entirely new section if you really had to, similar to loved except the maps would be hand-selected with the goal being to expose/give leaderboards to maps that lack the popularity to make it to loved as you proposed it.
if you do bring back voting, please try to keep each batch of maps fairly similar in qualities and favorites. Then you can tell for sure if the selected maps truly are what people'd prefer in loved; as it was, a good map being put in a bad batch could ruin its chances of being voted in. Maybe have a theme for each round, like maps around a certain amount of favorites, jump/stream practice maps, meta-bending maps, etc.
also, have you considered putting all unranked maps used in world cups into loved? they've certainly proved their quality, and probably deserve a leaderboard, don't you think?
Ephemeral wrote:
Actually, scratch that. New idea.
Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.
ah yes the "we used to do this back in 2009" new idea
i don't mind it coming back really
Topic Starter
Guess we'll need to provision for them in the RC, yeah. Another topic entirely I think. Failing that, we can just also make special exceptions for Marathon maps.Okorin wrote:
so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked
and approved maps are just that approved via a process
I don't see issue here because if mapper had posted his map on the forums it already belongs to the community in some way. If community loves map and wants to see a leaderboard on specific mapset, mapper is not obliged to actively participate in this process.Ephemeral wrote:
What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?
This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?
At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?
I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.
There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.
When Rezoons Jump training maps then?Ephemeral wrote:
Time to tidy this up, I think.
The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).
It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.
I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
Alright, I read the whole thread and I'm ready to put my two cents in.
First, we need to clearly define "What is Loved supposed to accomplish" because surely we don't have this whole category to be cute, right?
Some commentary on what others have said in this thread:
First, we need to clearly define "What is Loved supposed to accomplish" because surely we don't have this whole category to be cute, right?
So we define "Loved" as attempting to highlight and immortalize maps that deserve attention or are cult classics, but explicitly do not and will not fit the criteria to be ranked. So, what's the best way to accomplish this task while avoiding pitfalls, explits, and controversy such as:Ephemeral wrote:
Over the years, a common complaint with the ranking cycle has been that it is fairly restricted for most people [...] especially if it tailors to a distinctive audience, or seeks to attempt gameplay paradigms that are not allowed by the current Ranking Criteria.
- The creator of the map can easily manipulate the system to glorify themselves at the expense of the goal of the system.
- Modders have a very controversial extra ability to impact the process.
- Too many maps enter the Loved category too quickly.
- osu!standard gets almost all of the slots because it's got the lions share of players.
- The qualifier has multiple requirements that may not all be met, and are balanced together in a manner that attracts controversy in terms of unfair weighting between requirements.
Some commentary on what others have said in this thread:
Couldn't agree more. That seems to be the case as to why kudosu is involved - because the staff have failed to incentivize modding properly, so the reward for modding is being shoehorned into this system, to the system's explicit detriment and abuse.burntcedar13 wrote:
we're involving sp because it's actually worthless otherwise [...] the loved section is supposed to be about the community (which is mostly players), not mappers.
Do they know more about fun than the community, or do they know more about rules?melloe wrote:
[the modders] make the maps for you to play and they know more about mapping than the community
Why are the people who focus on making something rankable whether it is fun or not getting an undue say on literally the exact opposite type of mapping category?A severe dunking wrote:
Ephemeral wrote:
I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.chainpullz wrote:
The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved.
with 100 SP being thrown by the mapper into their own map, its not relevant for now
- We will regularly be adding maps based on community votes.
Is it in effect yet?
Well actually.
I think have a standard on SP is quite a bad idea.Since shooting & earning stars are quite easy.
Nowdays,mappers who have 100+ kds aviliable is very common.So for some reason,it's teribbly easy to push a low-quality map to Loved state.(If they want)
The old voting system is a littke better but still bad.Because it's BN choose the maps which can be voted.There're some BNs' personal tastes.
And now fav effects SP? wtf.
I agree with Monstrata for his Loved-Score system.And I had a new idea called "Loved Switch" to solve the inactive-mappers problem.
Btw,I think the new system Ephemeral will be worse.First,it will make Rank more easily because fav effects SP.And because of the 50SP,send a map to loved state will be easier.
For high-level mappers,they have more than 100 fans.
I think have a standard on SP is quite a bad idea.Since shooting & earning stars are quite easy.
Nowdays,mappers who have 100+ kds aviliable is very common.So for some reason,it's teribbly easy to push a low-quality map to Loved state.(If they want)
The old voting system is a littke better but still bad.Because it's BN choose the maps which can be voted.There're some BNs' personal tastes.
And now fav effects SP? wtf.
I agree with Monstrata for his Loved-Score system.And I had a new idea called "Loved Switch" to solve the inactive-mappers problem.
1.Loved Switch is a switch to control whether this map can be loved or not.It is controlled by mappers.It's default closed when the map is in WIP/Pending while it's default open when the map is Graveyard.Of course,Mappers should be able to open/close the switch if they want.
2.20 Loved points per fav and 5 Loved points per SP.
3.fav can't effect SP.
4.The basic points is 700 and it should be added based upon the diffs mapsets have.
***100 points added per Std diff
***50 points added per Taiko/Mania diff
***20 points added per CtB diff.
For example,if a mapset has 7 Std diffs and 3 CtB diffs,it can't be loved unless it reached (700+7*100+20*3)=1460 Loved points.
5.Loved is updated by machine,not nomiators.(Every 10/15 days)
There must be lots of mistakes in my opinion.Hope it's helpful /w\
2.20 Loved points per fav and 5 Loved points per SP.
3.fav can't effect SP.
4.The basic points is 700 and it should be added based upon the diffs mapsets have.
***100 points added per Std diff
***50 points added per Taiko/Mania diff
***20 points added per CtB diff.
For example,if a mapset has 7 Std diffs and 3 CtB diffs,it can't be loved unless it reached (700+7*100+20*3)=1460 Loved points.
5.Loved is updated by machine,not nomiators.(Every 10/15 days)
There must be lots of mistakes in my opinion.Hope it's helpful /w\
Btw,I think the new system Ephemeral will be worse.First,it will make Rank more easily because fav effects SP.And because of the 50SP,send a map to loved state will be easier.
For high-level mappers,they have more than 100 fans.
What about maps, where mapper is unable to do anything in this matter, for example because he's banned?
There are known and loved by people maps like this one:
JerryC - Canon Rock
Many people really hoped for this mapset to become loved, but then criteria changed and as the maps were being made Loved by staff at the beginning, then now mappers must fill in a form... which simply kills of maps like this one
I still hope that something can happen in this matter and maps like this one can become Loved.
There are known and loved by people maps like this one:
JerryC - Canon Rock
Many people really hoped for this mapset to become loved, but then criteria changed and as the maps were being made Loved by staff at the beginning, then now mappers must fill in a form... which simply kills of maps like this one
I still hope that something can happen in this matter and maps like this one can become Loved.
This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.Ephemeral wrote:
Actually, scratch that. New idea.
Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.
Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.
Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.
Everybody wins.
There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.
Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.
^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh
Raveille wrote:
This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.
There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.
Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.
It's still easy to evade, if you have two mappers with many stars and similar objectives. They simply can exchange stars, i.e. boost each other's mapset with own stars, giving exactly the same result as if they were to use them for their own maps.Arzenvald wrote:
^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh
Which means that it won't really affect these mappers, but the people without connections, who can have problem to get the stars in the first place, so they kind of more depend on community and more players (which is good?). With this, they will have it even harder, as they won't be able to use their own stars.
So, I think that doing this wouldn't change much, aside of:
- making even bigger discrepancy between average mapper and the ones, who can throw high number of stars on their maps,
- giving a birth to the Black Stars Market
And my idea is unfair for general.rakuenslove wrote:
most loved maps only have 1 diff tho
what about cosidering drain time?
Loved points = (700+100*Std-diffs+50*Taiko-diffs+50*Mania-diffs+20*CtB-diffs)*(The longest drain time in mapset/180)
:thinking:
The current Loved system hav two key issues.
1. Kudosu does not reflect the whole opinion.
It does not make sense to decide to vote with kudosu in the first place.
becuz kudosu can only be gained by person who did modding, so people who just enjoy playing only
cannot exercise much influence.
cuz the 100 kudosu condition is main requirement, this system is their own league; who do mapping or modding.
2. With Kudosu, multiple voting is possible.
Do you think it makes sense that when one chooses a member of the parliament, one person exercises several votes?
This is a serious problem that contradicts the purpose of 'Loved'.
First of all, we need to make sure the concept of 'Loved' clear.
I agree with CXu's opinion to some extent. 'Loved' is a completely different category from 'Rank',It is a map that has been steadily loved by people.
This is a way of gathering a large number of purely subjective opinions rather than objective ones, it has nothing to do with quality and playability,
cuz this is not rank category. that was the first way of Loved.
But before the voting system changed, actually the Loved maps are good in quality and popularity.
The favorite number and quality of the old loved maps and the current red votes disprove it.
By the way, The reason people say when they make a map like 'aim for Rank' or 'aim for Loved',
Becuz Rank and Loved map has promotional effect.
How would ordinary players find maps on OSU homepage?
They will search their favorite songs or look at the front page of the main category. It is typically Loved and Rank.
Most mappers will want to show off their map to others. it is natural,
But as a player,personally I don want to see the maps just made with short term in loved besides, I hate it if it's a map that people do not love.
Anyway to sum up, the way the map is chosen, not the problem of the map itself, is completely wrong.
If you want to continue the current way, Osu hav to make one more category like'Under Rank.'
similiar with Major and Minor league in sports.
Certainly, this does not fit the name 'Loved'.
so, Remedy of present Loved in my opinion,
first, Kudosu must be removed from the map selection criteria to fairly reflect the views of everyone.
and I think it is better to raise the Favorite upper limit to at least 100.
And with this, first questionnaire type is ideal.
Above all, current Loved does not have a manager to supervise the selection of the map unlike the Rank like BN and QAT.
So more than one manager is essential i think.
I hope the current Loved status will be better, and a hidden masterpiece that many people love wil come as legend.
Nonetheless, the current system is so far from being clear about the concept.
1. Kudosu does not reflect the whole opinion.
It does not make sense to decide to vote with kudosu in the first place.
becuz kudosu can only be gained by person who did modding, so people who just enjoy playing only
cannot exercise much influence.
cuz the 100 kudosu condition is main requirement, this system is their own league; who do mapping or modding.
2. With Kudosu, multiple voting is possible.
Do you think it makes sense that when one chooses a member of the parliament, one person exercises several votes?
This is a serious problem that contradicts the purpose of 'Loved'.
First of all, we need to make sure the concept of 'Loved' clear.
I agree with CXu's opinion to some extent. 'Loved' is a completely different category from 'Rank',It is a map that has been steadily loved by people.
This is a way of gathering a large number of purely subjective opinions rather than objective ones, it has nothing to do with quality and playability,
cuz this is not rank category. that was the first way of Loved.
But before the voting system changed, actually the Loved maps are good in quality and popularity.
The favorite number and quality of the old loved maps and the current red votes disprove it.
Becuz Rank and Loved map has promotional effect.
How would ordinary players find maps on OSU homepage?
They will search their favorite songs or look at the front page of the main category. It is typically Loved and Rank.
Most mappers will want to show off their map to others. it is natural,
But as a player,
Anyway to sum up, the way the map is chosen, not the problem of the map itself, is completely wrong.
If you want to continue the current way, Osu hav to make one more category like'Under Rank.'
similiar with Major and Minor league in sports.
Certainly, this does not fit the name 'Loved'.
so, Remedy of present Loved in my opinion,
first, Kudosu must be removed from the map selection criteria to fairly reflect the views of everyone.
and I think it is better to raise the Favorite upper limit to at least 100.
And with this, first questionnaire type is ideal.
Above all, current Loved does not have a manager to supervise the selection of the map unlike the Rank like BN and QAT.
So more than one manager is essential i think.
I hope the current Loved status will be better, and a hidden masterpiece that many people love wil come as legend.
Nonetheless, the current system is so far from being clear about the concept.
w..what...
Ryzen_old_1
just my thoughts...
-voting by favorites might be good idea (since if using kudosu that just only who have been modding can do that)
-about SP, 50 is fairly enough
-maybe 100+ fav will take the criteria
-and SV map? playable only plz...
please don't blame me if i got wrong XD
-voting by favorites might be good idea (since if using kudosu that just only who have been modding can do that)
-about SP, 50 is fairly enough
-maybe 100+ fav will take the criteria
-and SV map? playable only plz...
please don't blame me if i got wrong XD
WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Don't caps. Moreover, look at the time it got Loved, during the old system, that's why it got ranked. Now stop yelling please.Miutrex wrote:
WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
You're right, you don't.Miutrex wrote:
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?
Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties
WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.
Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties
WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.
Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
I could agree with this, since user rating system hasn't been in its upmost uses after all, but there's only one thing.CircusGalop wrote:
How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?
Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties
WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.
Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
Since what I see is that the user rating system is highly subjective, the beatmapper and the players can easily give 10/10 on each of the said category map. Which is pretty unfortunate, that rating system won't give out their honest rating as you might think it is - since it is easily dominated by the propaganda of the given map..... and that could be very risky.
Also agreed to the previous suggestions which are to limit giving SP, because it's already done by someone to purposely making the map "Loved" without any given lookout and further ignored mods. Shooting your hard-earned 100 stars right off the bat is just straight up dumb, I hate to say that. Keeping high favourites are great as well.
I realized that the additional conditions are needed like this.
Required raters : at least 100
How long keep those conditions : at least 2 weeks after last update
I thought as follows.
If many raters vote, manipulation of average User Rating will be difficult.
The number of favorites is dominated by popularity, but it does not reflect how many people are dissatisfied with this map.
If the average rating is not enough to make something a loved map, the mapper can try to improve rating by changing to WIP and improving the map.
Of course, user ratings might not reflect the map quality. But, this allows us to filter out the maps which a lot of people don't like and to give feedback to the mapper in a different way. I would like to hear more opinions about this.
Required raters : at least 100
How long keep those conditions : at least 2 weeks after last update
I thought as follows.
If many raters vote, manipulation of average User Rating will be difficult.
The number of favorites is dominated by popularity, but it does not reflect how many people are dissatisfied with this map.
If the average rating is not enough to make something a loved map, the mapper can try to improve rating by changing to WIP and improving the map.
Of course, user ratings might not reflect the map quality. But, this allows us to filter out the maps which a lot of people don't like and to give feedback to the mapper in a different way. I would like to hear more opinions about this.
Akali's (submitted by Sugoi-_-Desu) Knife Party - Centipede is the perfect example against this
DDMythical
Every map that meets their respective gamemodes' kudosu/favourite mark should be put into a pool. Then the community votes on X (10%) of these maps to be loved every month or so. The maps that don't make it have to get 30% higher kudosu/favourites to be able to enter the pool next month.
For hybrid sets; just account the most popular gamemode. For example if a set has 4 mania diffs and 1 standard diff. it will require the standard's limit of kudosu/favourites.
This stops people from putting 100 kds and getting randoms to favourite their map and then getting it loved no questions asked. The community then has to agree that the map is good. the 30% increase each time (100, 130, 169) will stop mappers from repeatedly putting a mapset into the pool when nobody wants leaderboards on it.
however long this mapset has been around for is irrelevant.
For hybrid sets; just account the most popular gamemode. For example if a set has 4 mania diffs and 1 standard diff. it will require the standard's limit of kudosu/favourites.
This stops people from putting 100 kds and getting randoms to favourite their map and then getting it loved no questions asked. The community then has to agree that the map is good. the 30% increase each time (100, 130, 169) will stop mappers from repeatedly putting a mapset into the pool when nobody wants leaderboards on it.
however long this mapset has been around for is irrelevant.
I think "loved" is not the place where you should add maps regularly. Maps that community truly love is not something that you can add every month by votes I think.. It's just a popularity contest, who made more interesting map with unranked patterns, weird spacing etc. Loved should be something more "holy" (?)
Maps that had great impact on community over YEARS, not week/month. Maps like that old nightcore jump practice that everyone played, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48738 (oh man this is genius). You can actually see though download count (not in every case but still) in current loved section what is truly loved, everything below 100k should be just removed. I think there should be at least 1-2 year in graveyard/pending to qualify for loved.. It doesn't matter if map gets attention for month or two, if it's forgotten over year it just means it doesn't really have to be in loved. And why loved should be something that is not flexible. What about some voting what should not be in loved? It's not like players lose pp from removing maps. Who needs many maps in loved anyway, true "loved" map is not something that appears every day/week. To sum up, there should be at least two ways to get loved. Using community votes for really old maps and download count for new ones.
Maps that had great impact on community over YEARS, not week/month. Maps like that old nightcore jump practice that everyone played, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48738 (oh man this is genius). You can actually see though download count (not in every case but still) in current loved section what is truly loved, everything below 100k should be just removed. I think there should be at least 1-2 year in graveyard/pending to qualify for loved.. It doesn't matter if map gets attention for month or two, if it's forgotten over year it just means it doesn't really have to be in loved. And why loved should be something that is not flexible. What about some voting what should not be in loved? It's not like players lose pp from removing maps. Who needs many maps in loved anyway, true "loved" map is not something that appears every day/week. To sum up, there should be at least two ways to get loved. Using community votes for really old maps and download count for new ones.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .Reazen wrote:
everything below 100k should be just removed.
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
end loved plz i need more pp
Then how these high SR maps still have more dl count ?? That's what loved is about ppl plays these maps even if it does not give them pp.Pachiru wrote:
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .Reazen wrote:
everything below 100k should be just removed.
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
Yo !
I didn't really read each post of this thread, and i think i'm not the only person who asked for this.
Is/will it be possible to have a mapset which is going for Ranked section, but in this mapset there's only a diff which goes for Loved section, because the diff itself is technically unrankable ? (all tag4 maps that were ranked before are now in Loved section, but the other diffs are in Ranked section)
I can give you an example if you don't see what i mean.
"I'm planning to make a full mapset on a song in standard mode, and i want to add a TAG4 diff but not as external diff. It is part of the mapset but the scores on it don't give pp, so it is for loved section"
I didn't really read each post of this thread, and i think i'm not the only person who asked for this.
Is/will it be possible to have a mapset which is going for Ranked section, but in this mapset there's only a diff which goes for Loved section, because the diff itself is technically unrankable ? (all tag4 maps that were ranked before are now in Loved section, but the other diffs are in Ranked section)
I can give you an example if you don't see what i mean.
"I'm planning to make a full mapset on a song in standard mode, and i want to add a TAG4 diff but not as external diff. It is part of the mapset but the scores on it don't give pp, so it is for loved section"
Is loved status supposed to be way harder than ranked?
Getting 100 favorites on a 7K map seems very hard when about 90% of players only play 4K.
Why have the same requirement for all modes when the size of player base is drastically different.
The requirement for favorite should be x% of total player base for that key mode.
Example: There are 100,000 players for 4K, set requirement to 0.1% you need 100 favorites.
There are 10,000 players for 7K, you need 10 favorites.
There are 10 million players for STD, you need 10 000 favorites.
Where as the requirement for kudosu would be based on active modders.
Example: There are 10000 mappers for 4K, set requirement to 10% = 100 kudosu.
Favorite is more of a limited resource than kudosu since you are capped at 50 per account and you get banned for multi accounts. Considering this, the requirement for favorite should be lower than kudosu requirement.
Only map that break ranking rules can be loved is a fair requirement.
I think the intention of having "Loved" is just a backdoor for pending maps to get attention, not actually meant to represent what the community loves, is that right?
There would be no need for loved if the ranking system was only based on # of mod + # of plays
Getting 100 favorites on a 7K map seems very hard when about 90% of players only play 4K.
Why have the same requirement for all modes when the size of player base is drastically different.
The requirement for favorite should be x% of total player base for that key mode.
Example: There are 100,000 players for 4K, set requirement to 0.1% you need 100 favorites.
There are 10,000 players for 7K, you need 10 favorites.
There are 10 million players for STD, you need 10 000 favorites.
Where as the requirement for kudosu would be based on active modders.
Example: There are 10000 mappers for 4K, set requirement to 10% = 100 kudosu.
Favorite is more of a limited resource than kudosu since you are capped at 50 per account and you get banned for multi accounts. Considering this, the requirement for favorite should be lower than kudosu requirement.
Only map that break ranking rules can be loved is a fair requirement.
I think the intention of having "Loved" is just a backdoor for pending maps to get attention, not actually meant to represent what the community loves, is that right?
There would be no need for loved if the ranking system was only based on # of mod + # of plays
Loved section should stay with the same requirements (100 kudos, 15 favs (or maybe more favs idk)) but let the community vote. As DDMythical said, there should be a pool of selected maps with 2 or 3 maps in the end.
Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
I agree with that idea.FruityEnLoops wrote:
Loved section should stay with the same requirements (100 kudos, 15 favs (or maybe more favs idk)) but let the community vote. As DDMythical said, there should be a pool of selected maps with 2 or 3 maps in the end.
Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
i think its absurd how were talking about a category centered around literally unranked popularity ( lets be honest thats what loved means. high critical acclaim.....but mostly popularity thats unranked ) and no one before this guy mentioned user rating where you LITERALLY RATE THE MAP as having any relevance towards anything. this thread is just people projecting their opinions of either i want the kudoso power or how no one should have the kudoso power. i think a combination of favorites and user rating with a small amount of influence. ( key word SMALL ) being given towards the kudoso thing is probably a alright system. i mean factoring in user rating to some degree doesnt seem like a bad idea, though we'd never see something like ikenai borderline get loved again it might also stifle out the completely generic shit or all the jump spam that half the community actually active in this game hates.CircusGalop wrote:
How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?
Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties
WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.
Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
the way i see it theres no way in hell were gonna get a "loved" system that pleases everyone. but is it even supposed to? i thought it was for unranked maps that have enough reception and popularity around them to warrant a leader board. its not the systems fault in that case if most of the community just has shitty taste
also +1 to loved maps being maps that are at least 6months-1 year old.
How about switch it up? 100 favs and 30 sp? Instead of 100 sp and 30 favs.
I actually suggested both options since 100favs+30sp is primaly for the actual famous maps that are truly loved, while 100sp+30favs are for the mapper who urgently want their map to have a leaderboard. *shrugs*PotatoJet wrote:
How about switch it up? 100 favs and 30 sp? Instead of 100 sp and 30 favs.
Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
hmm... still looking for a way out of this all
i'm here to summarize what I've read (some posts I forget omg: o)
forgive me for my rough language in English
i'm here to summarize what I've read (some posts I forget omg: o)
forgive me for my rough language in English
- Loved Beatmap is a beatmap beloved by people, chosen for its own reasons (forgot) by everyone.
- Loved Beatmap is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead.
- Loved Beatmap shouldn't just be an alternative Ranked status. Loved isn't supposed to be a mapping goal, it should just be a place for (unrankable) maps loved by the community to get a scoreboard. That is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.
- Loved Beatmap (still edit and find some argument to solve)
while i do not agree that "making all the effort a waste" is a valid argument to keep this current loved system, I think to tackle your problem a solution is that only mapsets which are uploaded after the new loved system took place will need to adhere to the loved requirements. this is similar to how updating the ranking criteria works if im correcttatatat wrote:
Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
___________________________
my opinion:
+ i think 100fav 30SP would be better cuz at last the osu player community is the dominant one, meaning having SR > fav doesn really reflect the fact that a map is widely loved (+ the fact that 90% players are not mappers nor modders, and therefore probably dont have kudosu to shoot at any maps)
and i think there should be a limit for the amount of stars one can shoot (sorry if its already mentioned i only skimmed over the 10 pages very briefly, like 5 stars per person, this is simply to prevent abuse of this 100fav 30sp requirement
There is an alternative to ranked already; it's called ranked.tatatat wrote:
Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
If there are no differences between a map in loved and a map in ranked (except for the potentially lower quality due to foregoing the modding process), then there is no reason to have a loved category in the first place, as those maps could just be ranked instead.
If a map can reasonably be changed to fit the ranking criteria, such as mapping additional difficulties, increase the quality of the map etc. it is fit to be ranked, and should not be considered to be loved.
Only maps that for some reason can't be ranked (such as the creator having left the community, or the map is designed around some unrankable concept), where changing it would break the map, should be considered for Loved, and only if said maps are indeed, community loved (how this is indicated can probably be discussed more, I just dislike the notion that "loved is an alternative to ranked". It's not, according to the description, and it shouldn't be.)
Topic Starter
Okay, just to tidy this up so as not to mislead people with things - this hasn't been discussed too much internally lately since moddingv2 has not progressed as far.
I believe we're slated to talk about Loved in the upcoming Coffee Hour, so hopefully I can provide some perspective and rationale on the issue in that. It is my hope that we'll sort something out to get Loved back into active duty relatively soon, though. Probably the biggest thing to iron out is the mix of expectations between what Loved should encompass or not.
I believe we're slated to talk about Loved in the upcoming Coffee Hour, so hopefully I can provide some perspective and rationale on the issue in that. It is my hope that we'll sort something out to get Loved back into active duty relatively soon, though. Probably the biggest thing to iron out is the mix of expectations between what Loved should encompass or not.
well heres hoping activity resumes. my interpretation of loved as always been the name itself. maps that are unranked for whatever reason that the community loves.
thats exactly what it should be and if the maps are shitty then again i reiterate what i said earlier. its not the systems fault if the community has shitty taste.
thats exactly what it should be and if the maps are shitty then again i reiterate what i said earlier. its not the systems fault if the community has shitty taste.
Is there now a way to submit maps for Loved that i can't find or is it still in discussion what is needed to get loved?
100 kds is to much lol . Maybe lowering it to 50 should be enough . And for fav is 100
Right . Simple as that XD
Right . Simple as that XD
no it's not as simple as that.
Envory
Topic Starter
To keep people up to date on this, a new voting round based on top-player/prominent player picks has gone out, in line with what was discussed during Coffee Hour.
I'm not yet sure if this is something that will be repeated. Hopefully it will, but I'm fairly set on not being the person behind compiling those lists again after the debacle of the first four votes, and I'd much rather delegate it to engaged players/modders/mappers who have a much wider scope for this sort of stuff than I do.
I can see some form of community voting continue for the near future, though.
That being said, is this the best compromise to have for Loved? A monthly intake purely decided from community vote?
I'm not yet sure if this is something that will be repeated. Hopefully it will, but I'm fairly set on not being the person behind compiling those lists again after the debacle of the first four votes, and I'd much rather delegate it to engaged players/modders/mappers who have a much wider scope for this sort of stuff than I do.
I can see some form of community voting continue for the near future, though.
That being said, is this the best compromise to have for Loved? A monthly intake purely decided from community vote?
I think everyone would prefer something more frequently, once a month is really painfully slow.