I have the giddiest smile right now. Thank you for this.
#MakeLovedGreatAgain

Gonna ping my video here, since I did make suggestions on how this system could be improved:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuzKCss-OmY

imo, mappers should not in any way have the capability to get their own maps loved. increasing the number of favorites would help, but I don't think even 150 favs shows a map is loved by the community. lots of the low quality maps in loved that no one actually cares about, would never have been in the loved section had the mappers not put it there themselves.

sp: the way I understood the main post's explanation of sp involvement, it sounded like you were just saying "we're involving sp because it's actually worthless otherwise." I do think sp should be worth something, but I don't think the loved section is the right place to just force it into relevancy. the loved section is supposed to be about the community (which is mostly players), not mappers.

idk I think that's about all I have to say. loved section is bad because mappers gained the ability to get their own maps loved, loved section used to be about the community, yeah.
typed on a phone, plz forgive errors #makelovedgreatagain

How about the kudosu thrown in has to be from at least 15-30 different people? It is more representative of "loved" by the community rather than the mapper dumping like 50 on a map (which is not that many), that is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.

LMT wrote:

How about the kudosu thrown in has to be from at least 15-30 different people? It is more representative of "loved" by the community rather than the mapper dumping like 50 on a map (which is not that many), that is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.

Why do I feel like I am an example of this statement =A=;;

using community vote again would be great, using a splash screen in main menu in-game for bigger exposure instead of adverting using osu!weekly only

additionally, is something like play counts (implemented in pending/wip, yeah) can be used to determine the maps being played frequent enough for being loved? if the goal is for 'loved', at least the part of community already been playing the map in regular basis for several times every day / week

1000 favorites for loved
a kudosu counts as 5 favorites
a single person can shoot only 10-15 kudosu at a map. they can shoot more but anything over 15 won't count towards the 1000.

numbers can be adjusted, the general idea is that a kudosu is like a more heavily weighted favorite and you can't have one or two people carrying the map to loved status via kudosu

I'd just like to throw this set out there, not trying to bash it too hard, since I'm on it.

O2i3 - TSLove
Mapped by [_Chichinya_]
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/549370

This set has 36 difficulties, so that's enough to meet the requirement, and I believe this set was circlejerked into the loved category my the GDers. 36 of the 100 required stars are from just one of the GDers, and the top 5 star donators donated a total of 84 stars, and all happen to have a GD on the set.

That being said, this set isn't good, and even if it's not trying to be good, it's not what I believe loved sets should be -- fun. With respect to the creator, as I know they worked super hard pushing this to be loved, I think sets like these are the reason that loved maps have lost so much value. Over half of the taiko maps are the same thing with more or less notes, which is just super low quality for something "loved by the community." I can't speak for any other mode besides the standard difficulty, but I don't even want to talk about that.

I know some of my points have been brought up before in this thread, but I wanted to give this super recent example of a set that got loved that just... isn't. I'm sure there are others, and I'm not calling for a witch hunt. That being said, I don't think SP should really have much to do with the loving of a set, since you can donate a shitload of sp, but you can only donate one favorite, and that's a lot more accurate at representing the popularity of the set. Frankly, throwing SP at a loved set seems like a waste, since loved sets are not ranked sets, and SP (I personally believe) should be used to say, "hey, this map should be ranked because I, a modder, approve of the quality," and not "I have to give the SP I earned by making maps more suitable for rank to a map that is not going for rank." I hope that makes sense.

So basically what everyone else has been saying.




also lul just /np the set into #osu and see how many people recognize it that should give you a good idea of how popular it is

Hey there!

As a mapper who is trying to get more involved in the community, I find it hard for mappers (like myself) to get a beatmap loved, due to the requirements.
For example, maybe a mapper that's new to the community is trying to gain some sort of attention or recognition, and may turn to loved as a result.
I see Loved status as an objective for mappers who are trying to "stand out" in anyway, but it's hard for the "new to the community" mappers to be able to do so because first, they'd have to either be well known in the community already or they have to connect with people on osu! to spread their map like propaganda, but since those mappers have neither, it'll be difficult.
Honestly, if we were to ask others to favorite and drop kudosu in our maps, I feel like we'd have a broken system of just mappers giving each other favorites and kudosu back and forth, but oh well \ :/ /
I mean, the only way I think a beatmap could be determined to be loved is through favorites and kudosu. Initially, I thought if a mapper would just submit their beatmap and try to justify why they want it to be loved and why they think it should be loved is not justifiable, because there isn't really a guideline on what a Loved beatmap is supposed to be.
I think keeping the favorites and kudosu is the best way to determine whether a beatmap should be loved or not, but I would like to refer back to my previous point on how "new to the community" mappers won't have it easy to reach out and try to get favorites and kudosu. I really think lowering the requirements is the best way to go, I don't think we should put a lot of pressure on mappers and make them feel disappointed when they try to get recognition. I've longed to have something like Loved come out, and I congratulate the osu! team for being able to accomplish this.
For now, 50/100 SP seems like quite a lot, and for some reason, 30 favorites also.
I propose that:
- We could try to lower the requirements to about 10-20+ favorites, and ~25 SP
- Or, we could implement a system where the less kudosu or ranked beatmaps a mapper has, the lower their requirements, and vice versa otherwise.

My points probably don't make any sense, but this is just how I feel.

Let's try to encourage mappers who are trying to aim for loved!

Using kudosu for that purpose was a shit idea from the very start. It was introduced as a mean to encourage modding and you should strive to make it that again instead of giving people the opportunity to dump their hundreds of useless kudosu somewhere.
Most notably SP is still easiest to gain by RECEIVING mods, best case is you don't have to mod anything at all so once again, getting mods is more attractive than modding. That does not encourage modding at all and SP is easy to gain if you are patient and get 1 mod every other week.
For me nothing changed from the inital iteration of loved maps, the section is still not more interesting than the graveyard, even less so due to the huge tendency of being overstarred. Most of all, I highly doubt that will change with changes to the requirements as Loved already has a face that it won't lose anytime soon.
In my opinion it is too late to make that section "small" by massively increasing the favorite-count.
Anything that will happen is the reddit-effect, meaning that popular mappers will get their graveyarded maps ranked without even doing much for it because they have the favoriting fanbase and other graveyarded maps that don't get played due to a lack of popularity simply won't get played and won't get the favorites and won't get loved.

Although I think that using SP and Kudosu is absolutely lame as a mean to get your map loved, it is still something that you can work for with a lot of effort, often no less than you would for a ranked map, considering the high amount of 100SP. That way loved wouldn't be a one-sided circle-jerk of celebrities but a product of communityeffort. Not necessarily high quality but you scrapped the qualityrequirement with the first voting rounds already. As such I don't see a problem with allowing communitymaps to get loved, even if they have 36 difficulties. If they are stupid they still won't get played but that is okay, graveyarded maps won't get played either. All that will differ loved maps from graveyarded maps will be that people cared about a scoreboard and did something for it. And what else is loved supposed to be at this point?

the number adjustements suggested in the OP are definitely a step to the right direction, but I think the important part on the SP side of things is to require enough unique SP contributors along with the flat number of required SP. This is to stop one person having excessive influence over a set's eligibilty for the Loved category. Let's say, for example, a set needs 20 unique SP contributors to qualify.

The other important adjustment that should be made is to the values for the 3 smaller game modes. Like it has been pointed out, 100 favorites on a CtB set implies wildly different things about the set than 100 favs on standard.

I've lost all faith in community voting after the last couple of rounds we had, so if that comes back it would need some heavy redesigning.

Star priority should NOT have come into play, whatsoever; this is how you turn the category from something prestigious into a low effort method of giving your maps a leaderboard.

...seriously, why are vanilla pp maps that should (barely) be ranked entering this section? The addition of something so abusable was pretty damn reckless. Loved should keep to its namesake and feature only maps enjoyed and picked by the entire community, and not a bunch of jack-off mappers with KD to spare. A similar issue is actually great maps that should and should've be ranked ending up here instead, because it's easier to do-- though that's arguably solved elsewhere.

I believe the polls were giving the section the best it had, considering the large amounts of effort and exposure by the community to vote for and push favourites through. Unsure what the best way to continue nominating would be, but it's certainly not automation. I believe the loved category should cater to all sections of the community, so as well as picking obviously prominent and popular maps (I don't like to dismiss this, a lot of the love comes from here), it would be wise to ask top players and mappers what they're enjoying too.

---

Lastly, regarding the penultimate debate in the OP: I find it hard to imagine a case where a mapper from days past would consider having their map given a leaderboard offensive. After all, they've submitted it for us to play and enjoy, right? Adding it to loved should only further display our positivity! Remember that loved is just a scoreboard at the end of the day and not to be compared with the official rankings where more issues could lie.

BeatOfTheDragon wrote:

lots of words

i disagree completely. i think most new mappers don't have something that really fits the idea of the category. it's meant for maps that are loved by the community, but i think most new mappers aren't able to produce a piece that really fits this. the current problem that most people currently have with the category is maps that aren't truly loved are being pushed into loved, so don't you think your ideas are a step in the wrong direction? especially by lowering the requirements, it just makes it easier for someone to gather a few friends together and boost their map to meet the criteria.

BeatOfTheDragon wrote:

I see Loved status as an objective for mappers who are trying to "stand out" in anyway, but it's hard for the "new to the community"

i think you should work to creating something that the community genuinely loves, not work to making something that you can just boost with some friends to meet the category's qualifications.

I pretty agree with idke that someone can actually play maps better can have a right to judge it. Loved maps are made for players anyway.
Though some maps like fool moon are not actually easy for player to play, we can use the fav stuffs to love.
And star priority should not go into this catagory. That is mappers stuff not players.

I think the best solution would be to just separate loved into 2 categories, where one has a large favorite requirement and the other a large SP requirement. That way we satisfy the people who want to keep Loved pure and filled with maps that are actually Loved, as well as an alternate category that serves the current purpose of Loved as a modding incentive.

Generally speaking, when the Loved level was originally introduced, it was praised as an attempt to get maps that were otherwise unrankable for a variety of reasons to get a scoreboard.

This is no longer the case. The Loved section has many maps that are otherwise perfectly rankable, either because they are full sets, don't break any rules, or are quite capable of having lower difficulties but don't purely due to laziness.

As it stands, a lot of new mappers actually try to aim for Loved rather than Ranked, purely because it's something they can reliably work towards. This is severely fucked up. It is a symptom of a problem both in the Loved requirements and the current motivational/activity issues plaguing the ranking system.

As it stands, the requirements for Loved are if anything, too generic. Ideally speaking there shouldn't be any maps in Loved that are just "normal maps except the mapper decided to go for loved instead of ranked because BNs are dead".

Right now, Loved is mostly being used as a "last resort" for shitty, lazy, or normal maps that aren't capable of going through the ranked system the normal way. This sounds so antithesis to the entire concept that it's outright silly. Loved maps, that is to say, maps that the community loves, that are perfectly rankable should be getting ranked just fine. If they aren't, that's the problem that should be fixed - not the threshold of SP or favorites. That's irrelevant.



Add a requirement to Loved that a map must be unrankable for some reason, and have one or two people actually vet these maps to make sure that they actually fit the spirit of the Loved nomenclature. "Couldn't find BNs" shouldn't be the reason a large percentage of Loved maps are Loved instead of ranked.

Maybe have maps "Apply" for Loved, and have a monthly or weekly vote on however many maps. Reject maps that fail for a month or something. This is far less important to me; I don't really care. If people can't get their map Loved because not enough people Love it, that's their problem. Not the system's.

Shiirn wrote:

As it stands, a lot of new mappers actually try to aim for Loved rather than Ranked, purely because it's something they can reliably work towards. This is severely fucked up. It is a symptom of a problem both in the Loved requirements and the current motivational/activity issues plaguing the ranking system.

Agreed, it seems like an easy way out. A way to get the recognition of being ranked but with less effort.

Shiirn wrote:

As it stands, the requirements for Loved are if anything, too generic. Ideally speaking there shouldn't be any maps in Loved that are just "normal maps except the mapper decided to go for loved instead of ranked because BNs are dead".

I agree that normal maps shouldn't go into loved, but some people just might not be able to get a map ranked as it sparks controversy. Not that it is unrankable, but because no one thinks it should be ranked.

By the way, couldn't the problems of "BNs are dead" be fixed by having MORE active BNs? It seems like the kind of thing that would need to be much bigger considering the massive playerbase osu! has.

Shiirn wrote:

Loved maps, that is to say, maps that the community loves, that are perfectly rankable should be getting ranked just fine. If they aren't, that's the problem that should be fixed - not the threshold of SP or favorites. That's irrelevant.

Again I think this could be more easily fixed by having more BNs. I don't see a downside to having more.

Shiirn wrote:

Add a requirement to Loved that a map must be unrankable for some reason, and have one or two people actually vet these maps to make sure that they actually fit the spirit of the Loved nomenclature.

100% agree with this statement. A separate group of people could be in charge of running the loved section (obviously QAT would still have some power) that are not necessarily great at mapping, but people who know what the community wants. Big problems in maps should be fixed (unless it is intentional) and the Metadata should be correct too.

Shiirn wrote:

Maybe have maps "Apply" for Loved, and have a monthly or weekly vote on however many maps. Reject maps that fail for a month or something.

Wasn't this the original set up for loved? I seem to remember something about applying floating around, and people used to vote on maps.

With CtB mindsest, I really don't see any reason why the voting system was done away. Ever since sp/favs was added, there's only been one ctb only set loved. Getting a map loved is just not possible when the minigame is 10x smaller than the others.

Voting system on the other hand was much better. Popular unrankable maps were loved often, old sets with no sp and yet were actually 'loved' by people became loved, those 10* diffs that simply wouldn't pass were loved, and spreads that were high quality and long abandoned were loved.

That + a large majority of the ctb players don't map, and have no kudosu to shoot. Voting is far more engaging for them because they can actually have a say on what they want to see.


tldr should bring back voting for ctb, our playbase is way too small to use the system for the other modes. If that doesn't happen, favs/sp count should really be lowered from it's current number to something reasonable. Imo 15 favourites/30-50 sp. Else we'll be having ~1 loved map per year.

Shiirn wrote:

Generally speaking, when the Loved level was originally introduced, it was praised as an attempt to get maps that were otherwise unrankable for a variety of reasons to get a scoreboard.

This is no longer the case. The Loved section has many maps that are otherwise perfectly rankable, either because they are full sets, don't break any rules, or are quite capable of having lower difficulties but don't purely due to laziness.

As it stands, a lot of new mappers actually try to aim for Loved rather than Ranked, purely because it's something they can reliably work towards. This is severely fucked up. It is a symptom of a problem both in the Loved requirements and the current motivational/activity issues plaguing the ranking system.

As it stands, the requirements for Loved are if anything, too generic. Ideally speaking there shouldn't be any maps in Loved that are just "normal maps except the mapper decided to go for loved instead of ranked because BNs are dead".

Right now, Loved is mostly being used as a "last resort" for shitty, lazy, or normal maps that aren't capable of going through the ranked system the normal way. This sounds so antithesis to the entire concept that it's outright silly. Loved maps, that is to say, maps that the community loves, that are perfectly rankable should be getting ranked just fine. If they aren't, that's the problem that should be fixed - not the threshold of SP or favorites. That's irrelevant.



Add a requirement to Loved that a map must be unrankable for some reason, and have one or two people actually vet these maps to make sure that they actually fit the spirit of the Loved nomenclature. "Couldn't find BNs" shouldn't be the reason a large percentage of Loved maps are Loved instead of ranked.

Maybe have maps "Apply" for Loved, and have a monthly or weekly vote on however many maps. Reject maps that fail for a month or something. This is far less important to me; I don't really care. If people can't get their map Loved because not enough people Love it, that's their problem. Not the system's.

Shiirn only one with balls to say what's on most peoples' minds

Sinnoh wrote:

With CtB mindsest, I really don't see any reason why the voting system was done away. Ever since sp/favs was added, there's only been one ctb only set loved. Getting a map loved is just not possible when the minigame is 10x smaller than the others.

Voting system on the other hand was much better. Popular unrankable maps were loved often, old sets with no sp and yet were actually 'loved' by people became loved, those 10* diffs that simply wouldn't pass were loved, and spreads that were high quality and long abandoned were loved.

That + a large majority of the ctb players don't map, and have no kudosu to shoot. Voting is far more engaging for them because they can actually have a say on what they want to see.


tldr should bring back voting for ctb, our playbase is way too small to use the system for the other modes. If that doesn't happen, favs/sp count should really be lowered from it's current number to something reasonable. Imo 15 favourites/30-50 sp. Else we'll be having ~1 loved map per year.

I'd rather see Loved maps managed by the QAT through an application process like Shiirn said. Voting system utilized too much of a "this guy is popular so there's a 200% chance we see more of his maps every week in voting" in ctb. Every week it was a new CLSW or Spectator map, which, although they are very good, did not give very much variety to the Loved section as a whole. Having people apply for Loved through a system that's moderated by a team that ensures the set belongs there seems like a much more viable and correct approach to the situation. When it comes to CtB though, I'd rather see 1 good loved map per year than 20 failed ranking attempts. We shouldn't be expecting to have as many loved maps as standard. That's delusional.

As of now, we have mappers who absolutely can't map and are just getting people to favorite their maps and have a lot of Star Priority through the countless mods they've gotten that don't improve their map at all. This goes for any mode, there's far too much that DOESN'T belong in Loved that's currently Loved. Every time I see "going for loved" in a map description I want to shoot myself because it completely ruins the purpose of the section. You get a map loved by it being a loved map, not by simply aiming for it.

Just my 2c.

I would recommend a score system where each map must attain a certain "score" to be eligible for qualification.

Let's say,
1 Favorite = 20 points
1 Star Priority = 10 points

To be eligible for Loved, you must get at least 1000 points.

If the player base loves the map, then they usually express this through favoriting the map.
If the mapping community loves a map, then they usually express this through starring the map.

Combining both favorites and star priority into one score system allows mappers more freedom to get their map Loved. They can either get support from the player base, or they can get support from the mapping community, or a mixture of both. Of course, we can shift points around later, or even logarithmatize the point system to have diminishing returns for # of favourites and # of star priority.

THe current SP system only benefits active modders currently. Not all mappers also mod, actually some of the best mappers don't do a lot of modding at all (see RLC Skystar ProBox handsome etc...) so they rely on the mapping community to promote their stuff. I hope we can find a balance through integrating # of favorites into Loved eligibility, not just Loved requirement. Currently # of favorites is useless above 30, while SP is useless above 100. Removing a dual requirement allows mappers to overlook one area (perhaps # of SP, if the mapper is not a known mapper or modder) through a significantly higher value in another (say # of favorites) and vice versa.

numbers are bad, numbers are how you get circlejerks, though knowing you this post was likely made entirely aware of the fact

I agree with Shiirn's point that Loved shouldn't just be an alternative Ranked status. I personally really dislike the fact that people are mapping "for loved". Loved isn't supposed to be a mapping goal, it should just be a place for (unrankable) maps loved by the community to get a scoreboard.

Right now, mappers are throwing a bunch of kudosu onto their own maps just to push it to loved status, and I think that defeats the point. A map with 100+ kudosu from the mapper doesn't tell me it's loved by the community, only by the mapper. So my suggestion would be that a mapper's kudosu onto thier own map doesn't contribute to the criteria for loved status.

This would devalue kudosu, but I see it more important to preserve what loved was supposed to be intended for.

We should keep the loved system as it was before, mainly focused in maps that have a bigger appeal to the community overall.The staff should create a new category for the maps with 100sp and 30 favorites as maps neither loved or ranked, but maps that can potentially provide good content for the community. Let me explain;

Maps with 100SP and 30 favorites so far showed maps that were part of regular ranking process (maps that are accord to RC) that after getting mods and gathering SP couldn’t get BNs to move them forward or maps that are popular among certain groups of mappers that get together and shoot stars in a specific map. Neither of this is aligned with the original goal of loved section, but they’re a response to the stumbles of the ranked process.
Maps that originally were modded over and over again but failed to succeed in getting rank now have a final destination different of getting graved after a lot of hard work. As well as single difficulties created by mappers that are loved by groups of mappers in which (for any RC reason), ranking seems too unlikely, to get a positive response. Both of these possibilities only show that the amount of created maps is no longer supported by the traditional ranked section, and further layers should be added in accord to meet the huge demand.

For now we have ranked beatmaps that are said to be the game official content, qualified beatmaps that are the maps that are on the merge of getting that status after around a week of exposure to fix potential issues and loved beatmaps, that are maps that doesn’t fit the RC but are labeled as content popular among the community and therefore deserve to have a leaderboard, score, playcount, etc… status too.

The initial idea here is to split the loved category from its current format into two:

Loved beatmaps; the original idea of maps that are voted (or not), have a lot of favorites, doesn’t meet the RC, have leaderboard, etc.
Appreciated beatmaps (or any other name, whatever);

This category could work as the lower level of beatmaps and the borderline from pending/graveyard/wip – and – loved/qualified/ranked maps.
Here it’s where maps that are not loved by the community and/or couldn’t get ranked for any reason whatsoever could get into. By establishing a minimum amount of favorite/star priority number more content that has potential to please the community can get the chance of getting more exposure and be played. And since this category it’s divided from loved, it can work on its own main goals.
Just an example idea, this category could feature maps that have a certain minimum amount(x) of star priority, or a certain amount of favorites and star priority simultaneously(y and z), or even Monstrata’s point system suggestion. This could work as a better way to exposure maps as possible content for BNs to evaluate as viable or not for modding towards ranked category.

Another idea is that since this section is aimed to the mapping community, the people who are active in both mapping/modding should get the chance to designate the content they consider good enough to get beyond pending maps to appreciated mapset. Example of that, is that for the last 15 maps someone modded over the course of x months, he can shot a “special” star in one of the maps he modded, therefore, considering it as the best map he looked in that period. After getting a certain amount of special stars, just like regular SP or SP+favorites, the map can get into the appreciated list.
It could also be used as a pre-qualification period, by adding to this category all maps that currently posses one bubble. So maps that currently have a bubble and are getting dust on the pending list can get the change of getting played and be more exposure to the community for both feedback possibilities. After getting all modifications and the heart icon it leaves the appreciated section to qualified section.
By adding maps with certain SP, maps with certain SP/favorite number and maps with one bubble I believe that the current core of the osu! mapping community can get a better exposure for the sake of new mappers, new ideas, acceptable content and “popular” content, compared to the cruel graveyard, a section of the game that currently has great quality content coexisting with content that is totally underdeveloped.

Now, this is all just general raw ideas. I’m not the revolutionary armed knight that will save the day. I just had a few ideas after seeing some debate over the loved category and wanted to share them in hope that with some further debate we can come up with a good way to improve the current situation for both ranking/loved system.

P.S: Ephemeral, little puppy son of a gun, you didn’t reply my messages about why my map didn’t get loved GRR

I agree with shiirn. I don't like seeing rankable mapsets in loved, because they should be going for ranked. Using loved as a last resort trash can for your map isn't really what it should be for imo.

now that class is over, an explanation of my previous post

1000 favorites for loved
a kudosu counts as 5 favorites
a single person can shoot only 10-15 kudosu at a map. they can shoot more but anything over 15 won't count towards the 1000.

numbers can be adjusted, the general idea is that a kudosu is like a more heavily weighted favorite and you can't have one or two people carrying the map to loved status via kudosu

if you generalize the entire community as "the community" then mappers and modders and like-minded people will be mostly excluded. this became very apparent when loved was first implemented and the voting system turned the loved category into generic jump map category. which, yes, is true to the name "loved," but do we really fucking want that? i dont, you dont, and if you do want that, you shouldn't. there are too many amazing maps rotting away in the graveyard because it's too hard or even impossible to rank them. they deserve a scoreboard.

in my opinion, the loved category should be a category that can represent the vast stores of unranked maps. in other words, the loved category should have a broad variety of maps. generic, bland or even shitty maps should definitely have a place in loved as long as they are popular, since there are plenty of those in the graveyard. we'll call these category 1 maps.

there should also be maps that people more knowledgeable about mapping can appreciate; these, we will call category 2 maps. the number of people who vie for category 2 is a lot less than the number of people who vie for category 1 (as evidenced by the voting system), but it's complete idiocy to discount these people and call them circlejerkers and throw them under the bus. they make the maps for you to play and they know more about mapping than the community, give them some goddamn time in the sun. not all of it, just some of it.

these two categories are broad generalizations and not mutually exclusive but i think that they have enough truth in them, for our purposes. previously, category 2 maps were being mostly excluded because community voting was heavily skewed towards category 1 maps. currently category 1 maps are being excluded because of the 100SP requirement. generally, a mapper/modder is not going to throw their stars at Blue Stahli - Anti You.

really, the idea of combining favorites and star priority into one system i mentioned before should solve both of them. do mappers think a certain map is shit, but it's a famous, heavily played map that brings joy to many players? no problem, just toss all your favorites at it. is the map an obscure masterpiece that no pp farmer would even touch but that mappers adore? no problem, throw your SP at it. to prevent a single person or two from carrying a map to loved, make it so that only up to 15 of their stars will count.


regarding mappers using the loved category as an alternate ranking system... just make it more difficult to get a map loved. make the loved requirement 3000 points if you have to. loved maps are meant to be like wine, they get better as they age. eventually it grows in fame and reputation and is played more and more, circulating through multiplayer lobbies, to the point where it's not a map that was submitted one week and thrust into loved section the next, it's a well-known map that people actually, genuinely like. nobody is going to artificially vault it into the loved category because the 3000 point requirement is too discouraging. the only way for it to be in the loved category is if players or mappers or both all known and love the map, and at that point it'll take its place in the loved category.

also making it so that only unrankable maps can be loved is just stupid. that's so subjective. what is unrankable and what is rankable? there's no clear delineation, there's an enormous gray area in between. pretty much any map, with thorough modding, can be ranked. are only 2b maps and 10* jump maps going to be loved? that's a silly restriction. if it's loved, it's loved, and it can go into the loved category where it belongs.

This new loved system treats favourites as if they are just freely given out. I think the cap of 100 should be increased, or a new favouriting system is introduced if this new loved system actually happens.

I share the same perspective as Monstrata.

When loved first came out, I was super excited for one beatmap in particular by 09kami. Since this map got loved after the criteria changes, it of course needed to meet the 100 SP criteria. I ended up shooting 45 kudosu (and a favorite ) at the map which didn't really bother me, but there were already 100+ favorites which left me wondering why I really needed to spend so much kudosu on something that was already so obviously appreciated.

I think Monstrata's concept of forcing a common denominator between kudosu and favorites is pretty spot on. If players love it, they can be the sole factor in getting a map loved. If mappers love it, they can be the sole factor in getting a map loved. Neither party has to rely on the other to get a map loved anymore, but it will take more appreciation from 1 single demographic than it will from 2 (obvious).
//idk if it really is this way or i just all of the maps i see work out like this, but if mappers like it then players generally like it as well. this isn't always the case vice versa tho...

Anyways with that said, I also think there are some serious issues in beatmap quality.

Syph wrote:

Perhaps a bit extreme but some maps look like people's first ever maps, and I don't think those belong there.

Yeah, I agree and have nothing more to add LOL

Yusomi wrote:

This new loved system treats favourites as if they are just freely given out. I think the cap of 100 should be increased, or a new favouriting system is introduced if this new loved system actually happens.

also a really good point LOL like 3 weeks ago i purged my favorites to open space and i felt terrible doing it.

I agree with Shiirn the issue with the current loved section is merely a symptom of a deeper rooted problem with the ranking system as a whole.

As far as I can tell the reason it took like 8 years for the loved section to come about is that to do it well you basically need a 2nd set of nominators to manage it who would be better used managing the ranked section.

I think the best results would come by taking Monstratas system and adding a runoff vote to it for all qualifying maps. Restrict first round voting to top players/mappers and toss the top 10 most popular maps from this voting each week into a full community vote like we had originally.

down with kudosu boosting.

I think perhaps the early voting to introduce the system to the game set an expectation for Loved content to be appropriately 'curated', when the system was never intended to be. Our thoughts in mind when making Loved were not to introduce a listing that contains high-skill, high-acclaim maps that were otherwise unsuitable for ranking, but rather to provide an alternate method for mappers with content that was widely appreciated regardless of what difficulty level or paradigm it was made under.

I'm not sure that pursuing a return to the same curated voting that started off Loved is particularly helpful - though if there is such a high demand for curated content in that regard, we could look at setting up something else to achieve the same end.

Xd I want my kds back

How many people actually like the fact that SP is being used?
I think you should try to find another use for kudosu than loved, because kudosu doesn't belong in loved.

I depends on the definition on what a "Loved" map means. It could be "unrankable but loved by many", or under "for maps of all types chosen by mappers and players", or all the way to "here is a fast way to get publicity without effort w[deleted]k".

If it is the first one, there needs to be a sharp increase in the favorite's minimum, since loved my many needs UNIQUE players to love it. This on it's own could suffice if that is the definition we are going for.
If it is the second one, then the current one needs a reform. Maybe have two systems to get loved: One operating under favorites, One operating under SP.
If it is the last one, well the current system seems to want to move that way, but only for mappers with publicity. While this makes sense, as it is at this stage a publicity contest, an automated system wouldn't be a problem since ALL maps are equal under this definition.

These are my 2 cents in an issue I have almost no qualifications in.

Maybe the good idea is to make group of mappers+players who can make a decision: is map deserve loved status or not. Mappers or players can request a map somehow and this group will decide what to do with this maps.

Ephemeral wrote:

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

Why not to asuume that you have their permisson to move it to the loved until its proven not. I mean is this really different case from people taking copyrighted songs?

I would definitely discourage loved to become solely a shelter for maps that are in some way controversial, as I think all good and well playable maps should become ranked eventually, regardless of how they freely ignore the ranking criteria. Good and well playable maps should, the more controversial they are, help the ranking criteria to become more precise in determining potentially relevant factors when evaluating the maps as such. Holding it the other way around, that is the ranking criteria solely determining what can or cannot be ranked, will result in the ranked pool of maps becoming continuously dull and meaningless. I do not think you should encourage such development.

Now I had a look at some graveyarded beatmaps and it seems that the quality of the map - or at least the degree to which the map is interesting in some way - does not necessarily increase with the number of kudosu, but rather the amount of people the map received kudosu from. Now I thought about just have weighted kudosu on a map given by others more than ones given by the creator, but I think this is abusable too easily. Instead I think it's inevitable to ultimately have some kind of "loved"-score calculation that factors in the amount of people that gave kudosu, while at the same time have the creator not be able to get the required sp himself just by spamming his hoarded kudosu (which in my opinion doesn't represent what "loved" stands - or should stand - for).

Maybe the solution would be to just have a weighting similar to the pp-system; that is the first favourite counts relatively more than the second favourite and the second more than the third etc.. Similarly, the first kudosu from person x would then count more than the second kudosu from person x and more than the third kudosu from person x etc.. This would encourage maps that have received broad appreciation, thus be loved by the community, actually be "loved" by the community.

I think having kudosu weighted would ultimately discourage mappers hoarding them for their own maps to reach loved status, thus enabling kudosu to ultimately become for mappers just what favourites are for players: a way to express their appreciation towards a map. I also don't think you should have to rely on star priority to reach a certain threshold, as opinions on maps of the community of players and the community of mappers have proven to diverge on a lot of occasions. I think kudosu can be - if implemented properly - a great way to grant a voice to the mapping-community in the loved-process.

Thanks for creating this thread, I've been moaning about loved for the last few months.

Eph you and I have very different views of what "loved" should mean. It seems that to you that kudos mean as much as favorites regarding loved status (which I can never agree with). If we're going to be forced to use kudos then I love the idea of x kudos = y favs if. I think making kudos optional is much more true to the category. Kudos don't belong in the loved category and you probably know that, so let them be optional. Use a formula that weights kudos vs favs to accomplish this.

kudos + favs * x >= y (after reading through all the posts it appears monstrata reached the same conclusion with the EXACT same values I had in my mind)

Now just play around with the values of x and y until you find a nice outcome (and no please don't make x anything below 1, favorites SHOULD be worth more).

Another problem is the fact that the system is RETARDED for non-standard maps. There aren't going to be any mania maps that fit the new requirements after like one cycle if the requirements aren't made more dynamic somehow (I have no solution to this).

Now that we've gotten the "include kudos" version of the category out the way, I can give my own opinion and some better ideas:

Mappers shouldn't be able to strive for loved status and they shouldn't be able to get a map loved with minimal community involvement.

Involving kudos is retarded. ( I disagree than rankable maps shouldn't be loveable, that's not what the section is about, the effort a mapper puts towards achieving ranked or loved and the style of that map is completely unrelated to whether the community wants a scoreboard or not).

Loved is NOT a way for mappers to make their first steps into the community, it's the communities way of letting enjoyable maps in.

There are a lot of people who seem to think that loved should only be for unrankable style maps. While I would love this (all of the best maps in the sections are IMO the innovative unrankable ones), I don't think it's right. It's fallacious to think that this is a "this or that" scenario, in reality we should be asking "why can't we have both?". Legitimately, why the fuck can't we? In a proper system I believe that unrankable and rankable maps that the community loves would both float into the loved category without intervention from mappers and modders, we just need to set that system up.

Which brings me onto the discussion of what the loved system should actually be comprised of. For one it CAN'T involve kudos. Kudos just take all of my opinions and aggressively shits upon them. Involving kudos means that mappers must be actively involved in trying to get their map loved, they must ask for kudos from modders or dump enough of their own kudos onto their map. This does NOT show what the community wants, it shows what 4 or 5 modders want.

I can see 2 reasons that kudos are required. I believe that the people running the system aimed to solve the issue of a big circlejerk group moving their favorited beatmaps around from map to map in order to bulk move maps into the loved category (which is a legit problem). The obvious solution to this also allowed the elimination of the long standing issue of how useless kudos are. IMO this is a budget solution. I don't believe that favorites alone are an acceptable solution (it's abusable) but I also don't believe kudos are the solution. I've never seen anyone mention the abusability of favorites publicly but I'm pretty sure it's been discussed behind closed doors, so I'll propose a solution (if we're going to use favorites that is). Limit the amount of favorites a player can REVOKE in a given period of time (revoke one per week or so). Arguably this could be annoying, but people shouldn't be mass unfavoriting maps anyway if they really are a persons favorite maps. It's a simple and more effective solution than shitty kudos dumps and it stands as my favorite, simplest solution. With this limitation introduced, loved CAN be entirely based on favorites (which would be far better IMO).

But to be frank, I don't think any of the above solutions are good enough in the long term. I believe the solution should be a more seamless system integrated directly into the client. Essentially I don't believe a perfect solution should be the goal until the new client is released. Some thoughts on how the new client should handle everything:

Once a week people are awarded a certain amount of points based on their stats (let's call them vote points (vp)). Each player would be given vp based on multiple factors (arbitrary formulas like a players pp in a mode divided by 1000 plus maps modded in the last week divided by 2... etc..). vp would be MODE SPECIFIC and each player would receive a different amount in mode specific vp based on their stats related to the game-mode. Players would be able to vote on maps that they want to see loved using these points, once a week. A live list of the 100 most popular maps (by vp) would be available in game to make the process even easier. Every week to highest x amount of maps from each mode would be moved to loved (x being scaled based on the number of vp used that week in each given mode). At the end of the week, vp is completely reset for players and maps and then re-distributed.

I think a proper solution is a long way away and tackling this issue is going to be difficult, that doesn't mean the current system is acceptable though, something temporary needs to be done and I believe the system should be entirely based on favorites for now.

Imo the biggest issue here is that by making maps too frequently enter into the loved status eats away the novelty of being loved by the community when the map hasnt existed for more than a few months in the worst cases. Loved maps should be much more rare than ranked maps since time is the key factor in making something that is actually known by many and liked by many and when the system first came out people were most exited about these old classic maps that are several years old being able to have a category of their own as those were the maps that had gradually gained this widespread love for them.

Having 1-2 polls per year hosted through the client itself to help with the voting activity or having a roster of selected people to pick maps together for loved would be what I would suggest as now with the way the system is, getting loved even after changing the numbers on the system (whether it be 200 kds or 100 favs) is still much easier and preferred way to push maps forward instead of ranked (sadly) and will stay this way unless loved becomes something that is achieved and not "farmed". One only needs to look at current amount of qualified maps and compare the amount of loved maps added recently to see this trend.

If drastic changes like the one I suggested arent made to the purpose of loved then most likely the popular opinion on loved status wont change as the whole category is filled with maps that belong into ranked and the maps that deserve status of their own are being lost into the midst of these maps, making them unavoidably feel as "normal" or "unspecial" because of this same label on them. Basically loved right now is like what I think would happen if aspire contests were held as often. At first its new and exiting, everyone loves the idea as it is something we need and pushes the game forwards to a better direction. This would change quickly though as the oversupply of contests happening monthly compared to undersupply of great aspire entries due to lack of ideas and development in mapping would lead into inevitably lowering the bar on winning entries and therefore eating away the value that the initial contests had. In loveds case oversupply of loved cycles that are easier to achieve than ranked + undersupply of great maps due to lack of time and development in mapping = lowered bar and overall quality in maps that become loved, eating away the value from the initial maps that had had the time to become loved and deserving of the status.

tl;dr Make loved an actual achievement for a map that is in its own right harder to achieve than ranked, 1-2 picking/selection cycles per year done by community or selected panel of pickers, forget kds + fav reqs as they encourage to abandon going for ranked which is what all maps that arent breaking the criteria/lack something essential should do in the first place.

Just bring the voting system back

Yeah agreed with probox... I mean, somebody put some perfectly rankable tv sizes and god-awful maps that nobody loves there!
I'd say bring back the voting system. You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.

Monstrata wrote:

I would recommend a score system where each map must attain a certain "score" to be eligible for qualification.

Let's say,
1 Favorite = 20 points
1 Star Priority = 10 points

To be eligible for Loved, you must get at least 1000 points.

If the player base loves the map, then they usually express this through favoriting the map.
If the mapping community loves a map, then they usually express this through starring the map.

Combining both favorites and star priority into one score system allows mappers more freedom to get their map Loved. They can either get support from the player base, or they can get support from the mapping community, or a mixture of both. Of course, we can shift points around later, or even logarithmatize the point system to have diminishing returns for # of favourites and # of star priority.

THe current SP system only benefits active modders currently. Not all mappers also mod, actually some of the best mappers don't do a lot of modding at all (see RLC Skystar ProBox handsome etc...) so they rely on the mapping community to promote their stuff. I hope we can find a balance through integrating # of favorites into Loved eligibility, not just Loved requirement. Currently # of favorites is useless above 30, while SP is useless above 100. Removing a dual requirement allows mappers to overlook one area (perhaps # of SP, if the mapper is not a known mapper or modder) through a significantly higher value in another (say # of favorites) and vice versa.

this

Eraser wrote:

You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.

I do not agree about this, if you're an unknown mapper, love section is a great way to promote your work.

The use of kudosu was interesting because it forced you to mod a lot to have your beatmap loved. I think it's fair because you get rewarded for helping the beatmapping community.

(encouraging modding is great thing tho).

Ovoui wrote:

Eraser wrote:

You shouldn't be able to make your own map "loved", that is for somebody else to judge.

I do not agree about this, if you're an unknown mapper, love section is a great way to promote your work.

The use of kudosu was interesting because it forced you to mod a lot to have your beatmap loved. I think it's fair because you get rewarded for helping the beatmapping community.

(encouraging modding is great thing tho).

If you're unknown then your maps aren't loved and they need to gtfo being viable for the category. Such a stupid argument.

People definitely need to understand that the relationship should go: popular -> loved; not: loved -> popular

I understand that using kudos encourages modding, but that doesn't make it GOOD. If we made it so that you had to purchase retries with kudosu in game I'm sure we would see an increase in the amount of mods, but that's also the worst idea ever. Kudos need their value to come from within the system in which they are awarded (the ranking system) not from being tagged onto some other unrelated topic.

Making great map which deserved to be loved by the community and being unknown is compatible.

I didn't see your edit btw

Ovoui wrote:

Making great map which deserved to be loved by the community and being unknown is compatible.

I didn't see your edit btw

Yeah sorry, I posted before I finished thinking.

If popularity is what you seek, then go for ranked. Loved is for maps that are loved by the community, doesn't matter good or bad, easy or hard. And the first step to be loved is to gain popularity.

Don't make loved the second and easier ranked section please. I don't want to see a regular pp jump map from an unknown mapper go there just because they can't get some bn to check on it.

Yusomi wrote:

This new loved system treats favourites as if they are just freely given out. I think the cap of 100 should be increased, or a new favouriting system is introduced if this new loved system actually happens.

I definitely think this is an issue that needs to be addressed, especially if from now on having favourites on a map will play a bigger role for the loved section and both mappers and players will be encouraged to do so. I usually rarely favourite maps, and I'm already at 81 favs, considering the enourmous amount of maps which are currently submitted 100 is definitely way too low and I can see it being a problem in the long run for the loved section.

Ephemeral wrote:

Our thoughts in mind when making Loved were not to introduce a listing that contains high-skill, high-acclaim maps that were otherwise unsuitable for ranking, but rather to provide an alternate method for mappers with content that was widely appreciated regardless of what difficulty level or paradigm it was made under.

I'm not sure that pursuing a return to the same curated voting that started off Loved is particularly helpful - though if there is such a high demand for curated content in that regard, we could look at setting up something else to achieve the same end.

Based on this and the current state of maps in the loved section I would like to ask everyone advocating changes to the current system, especially those that are aiming to raise the map quality in the section by one way or the other:

1. Favorites are already instrumentalised for loving maps now. They are given out with the only incentive that a map can get loved although it may not be one of your favourite map. Do you really want to completely invalidate the meaning favorites had in the last 10 years of osu! by inflating the requirement like that?

2. Assuming the loved maps were now required to be unrankable by design as proposed by Shiirn:
What is supposed to happen to the maps in loved that don't fulfill that requirement? Unlove, graveyard? Keep them? Both options are bullshit so you would better come up with a different one that doesn't make the people who put in effort to get their map loved feel betrayed.

Well.. there are a lot of posts and I wanted to reply to all, more or less, but rip.

The post I agree the most with is Shiirn's: the Loved section is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead. This is damn lame.

The proposal in the OP is quite interesting too, but not wide enough. Let me explain why...

As the proposal is set now, we have two sides (one from modders, one from players) that need to be raised to a certain value to make the map Loved.
This is good and I like it, because it means that a more varied part of the community agrees on a certain map.
What I not agree with is the fact that one mapper can simply shot many stars on it or the fact that many players can totally outclass modders and get the SP down to 25 only (which is really really low)

My counter-proposal for this would be to make the first SP requirement to be 75SP and decrease it to 50 using the formula provided in the op, this way we are sure modders are not completely wiped out by players.
On the other hand, make it so that every modder can shot at most 10 or 15 stars as someone already suggested. This way we can avoid a single modder to hold the power.
These are simply fixes to make things return to the concept that the COMMUNITY should love the map, and not a few people (I truly laughed at idke's proposal tbh)
(1000 favourites = insta Loved status seems totally fine, since that's quite a big portion of people imo)

The other thing I would like to see fixed is what maps actually get loved.
As Shiirn said, any map meeting the requirements passes. The solution for this is simply: either make the QAT, or maybe even the Spotlights team, take a look at the maps meeting the requirements and judge whether they are unrankable or not, because making perfectly rankable maps pass to the Loved category looks totally wrong here.


Last thing is about the favourites system mentioned just above this post: it should change if favourites start being an important part of the Loved processing.



Make the Loved category be truly for loved maps please, not for lazy mappers not being able to find BNs (no, more BNs is not the solution lol)

Ephemeral wrote:

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.

Why exactly wouldn't they want their maps to be loved? Take a look at Charles' skeleton map for example, I'm pretty sure he doesn't mind having that map loved even though he drifted away from the community and game itself. The point of loved (or at least as it was suggested by the community before the category existed) was to give the old, classic graved maps that couldn't be ranked in any way get finally the place they deserved (biggest examples would be Groundhog and deltaMAX, and to be honest I don't think Takuma would've been able to submit it for loved as he's been away for quite some time). It feels a bit unfair that maps like Moskau and Konbini can't get loved because of 1. the current requirements; 2. because their respective mappers are inactive, even though the maps were exactly the reason why the section was created in the first place.

About the other points, I believe jesse and Shiirn already said everything I had to say. It's sad to currently see perfectly rankable maps with 20 pages of mods get loved because "the mapper got tired of looking for mods" or the fact that some mappers are giving 50+ SP to their own maps so they get loved easily (ALIEN, Another Lie's map). If you want kudosu to be relevant, then go do something with ModdingV2 or actually make Kudosu/Mapper Ranking relevant again, bring some rewards to people who mod, I don't know, man, just don't ruin a section because kudosu isn't as useful as it could be.

I agree with the points based system. It will enable both popular graveyarded maps from beatmappers that have left to become loved, as well as those willing to contribute a massive amount to the modding community in order to give their own maps a leaderboard. It's basically a win-win.

It would seem that there is a big push for Loved to return to limited-criteria curated content - namely that it includes only maps that are both wildly popular, and are limited in some way or another from being ranked normally.

I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place. Perhaps limiting the total SP contribution from one person is part of this. Being able to add maps to Loved was kind of the prevailing reward planned for kudosu, at least in the short term, so removing that would require it to be replaced with something else entirely.

Ephemeral wrote:

the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.

You had me when you said mapping community but lost me when you said modding community. The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved. As others have pointed out a lot of the more acclaimed mappers don't even mod much to begin with and hence do not get any benefit from SP being part of the system.

chainpullz wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

the mapping and modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.

You had me when you said mapping community but lost me when you said modding community. The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved. As others have pointed out a lot of the more acclaimed mappers don't even mod much to begin with and hence do not get any benefit from SP being part of the system.

As mentioned earlier (and in the OP), the crystallization of their time investment (SP) means very little for actually influencing the ranking cycle at the moment. Beyond preparing maps for Ranked itself, they receive very little in the way of reward for essentially providing the rest of the community with content to enjoy.

if want to have both sp and curated sets going in loved, then have like, 5 slots in a vote for curated and 5 slots for sp/fav maps, then people vote
eg

1. curated old map
2. curated 10* map
3. curated map etc
4. curated map
5. curated map
6. +100 sp evening sv map
7. +100 sp song compilation
8. +100 sp map
9. +100 sp map
10. +100 sp map
community votes on what they want from there. old mappers and sp shooters both get loved from this. alternately could just have it so curated and sp sets are on different voting lists so they don't compete with each other

i dont really agree with the concept of dumping a whole lot of kds onto a set for it to be eligible just for the voting process, just for a not-at-all-guaranteed chance to get your set loved

what if your map fails the vote? 100sp down the toilet?

Ephemeral wrote:

As mentioned earlier (and in the OP), the crystallization of their time investment (SP) means very little for actually influencing the ranking cycle at the moment.

Yes, and that is an issue. With the ranked category. The core of the current issue with the loved category is that we are letting major issues with the ranked category spill into the loved category. There needs to be a line drawn and that is what seems to be getting lost in all this fixation about points/voting.

Due to the more objective nature of the ranked category and the need for strict rules/guidelines there are maps that are not rankable because they would set bad precedents that would lead to an overall decrease in map quality (not that I think too highly of the current cut/tv size mapping meta at the moment). Though sad because some masterpieces are hence unrankable, this is a completely necessary thing to do and is not really a problem with the ranking system. The loved category exists to provide a home for these maps.

It also has the opportunity to provide a home for maps that are loved by the community but were never pushed forward for ranking, perhaps because the original mapper is long gone, or because the mapper would rather let the map grave than make a spread for it.

While it should certainly be acceptable for a mapper to aim for loved with a map of the former type, the mapper should have no say in whether a map of the latter type gets loved otherwise loved and ranked will overlap in undesirable ways.

chainpullz wrote:

Due to the more objective nature of the ranked category and the need for strict rules/guidelines

ha that's a funny joke good one

Okay, we pulled up some stats and spoke for a bit based on the feedback people have given us here, and we've come up with the following thresholds per gamemode based on the statistics of gamemode distribution among players (for reference, it is 77% osu!, 16% osu!mania, 4% osu!catch and 3% osu!taiko from users active within the past month):

Entering a map into Loved will cost 50SP across all modes.

Entering a map into Loved will also require the following favorites per dominant gamemode (where the dominant gamemode is the set with the highest requirements below):

osu!: 100
osu!taiko: 10
osu!catch: 10
osu!mania: 30

The SP requirement will be reduced by 1 every X favorites above the base favourites (down to a minimum of 25SP):

osu!: 16
osu!taiko: 2
osu!catch: 2
osu!mania: 4

This should be fair and representative of general population across all gamemodes, and at the very least, fairer than the current requirements for maps that are not osu!. Multimode mapsets may be a bit of a pain, but we'll see how they go.

We will also conduct voting for legacy beatmaps with high favourite count where the mapper may no longer be available to submit the maps for Loved themselves. This may be tied into Spotlights in the form of a "vintage Spotlight" occurring every few months or on certain dates of the year, complete with concurrent voting.

While I understand that keeping Loved exclusive is a concern for some users, it is important to note that we did not ever intend for it to be shrouded in the airs of exclusivity - the idea was to create an open category as an alternative means for mappers to get their work recognized and playable, for those who produce content that is not designed to fit within the Ranking Criteria. An avenue for curated content exists in the Spotlights - and we can certainly begin investing more resources and rewards into having maps featured by the Spotlights going forward.

Exclusivity is not necessarily the issue people take with it - it's the questionable nature of whether something belongs in the Loved category. Adding some curation requirements does not make it "exclusive", it simply makes the entire category more respectable. Be it either through voting, a few people "checking" maps, or some other step that involves actually looking at the map, something should be done to make sure that every Loved map is "Special" in some way. Otherwise, it's just a dumping ground for mappers that can't get the map ranked normally, popular songs with bad maps, or a mapper begging for favorites and dumping SP. Even with the new proposal.

The change you propose is nice and all, and backed by statistics, but the outliers that are just "normal maps" really taint the barrel. I'm sure everyone's aware of the good old rotten apple analogy.

When people look through the Loved category, they want to see uniqueness. Specialness. That hard-to-summarize quality that separates these maps from the peer-reviewed, highly specialized content control system the Ranked category has. Many maps in the section have this. But nowhere near "Most" of them.

They don't want to see otherwise normal maps like entire normal sets ("giving up on ranking") or four-minute regular maps that would just be a minor pain to make lower difficulties for ("lazy") or the like. They also don't really want to see actually crappy maps. (That crystallized set really stands out as being kind of full of shit, no hitsounding, no effort bullshit)

I understand that this is a much more major change than tweaking the thresholds of SP and Favorites, so I'm not surprised it was kind of politely pushed to the side, but it'd be nice to hear this kind of issue was being considered.

It is being considered, and I've said repeatedly that the demand for curated content (ie: exactly what you're asking for in regards to content that "belongs" in the communal expectations that the Loved category currently carries) is better undertaken elsewhere or in different domains rather than forcing the issue in the Loved category.

For example, Loved being open allows for maps that aren't that great to get in it. Curated content based on Loved maps (ie: the proposed "Vintage" spotlights) fulfills the need to have a way of marking or denoting truly excellent content within the category without closing it out to everyone else.

Adding another category-within-a-category seems kind of silly.

It'd just be another layer for the actually-aiming-to-have-interesting-maps-get-a-scoreboard-and-played maps to pass, except it'd have an even more esoteric set of entry requirements. People wouldn't want to go for Loved just to get Vintage or whatever due to the added level of risk. Loved would still be a dumping ground.

Right now there are four separate types of maps in the Loved category:

1. 1. Maps that break some form of modern rule of rankability. Be it aesthetics, esoteric concept/theme, or outright breaking the rules for the sake of the song. This is what people look for.
2. 2. Ridiculously high-difficulty maps under 5 minutes that are otherwise perfectly rankable. Can include songs that genuinely struggle to have lower difficulties, such as What The Cat.
3. 3. Maps that are "dump sets", maps that are incomplete, low-effort, or otherwise just don't have the polish or focus necessary to get ranked. But totally could.
4. 4. Maps that are completely normal but are either Loved because the mapper has given up on Ranking, or because it's a normal map that didn't reach the 5 minute drain time and the mapper can't be assed to fill the rest. The "effort to get loved" is less than the "effort to extend >5min or fill with other difficulties"

What do we want to see in Loved?

It's not a real "category" perse (referring to Vintage), but rather a way of selecting the better maps in the category. Spotlights as a whole will be much more prevalent in osu! once lazer is complete, and it seems as if a good way to give them that initial traction would be to move the expectations for curated content away from Loved as a whole category, and into them instead.

Alright, let's add this to the list of "Stuff that'll be more relevant once lazer is complete" and call it a day, then.

I hope I'm not too late, but I'll dump everything on my mind.

I don't see why a map being ranked and a map being Loved have to be mutually exclusive. Aren't there plenty of maps out there already that are not only loved, but also are ranked? I'm probably projecting, but I think something like Freedom Dive should be Loved, even though its already ranked. It has 1000+ favorites, too. But for those Loved maps that can't be ranked, the warning with the "This Loved map will not give pp" can just flash before you play the map.

I agree with what several others have already said, including that the Loved category should be full of things that are genuinely loved, like a priceless treasure. That said, there could be two ways that a map can be Loved:

1. A point-based system, where a favorite counts as two points and a kudosu counts as one point. Additionally, any amount of kudosu from each user only counts once, only allowing anyone to contribute a maximum of three points to the map. I understand the important of kudosu, but allowing kudosu to have too much influence over whether a map enters Loved or not could be easily abused. Then, a map has to reach at least 250 points or so to be Loved.

2. A voting system, probably 2-4 times every year, allowing the community to put in any beatmap for entry and to vote on them. The primary purpose of this is to get loved older beatmaps that have little/no favorites and beatmaps with inactive creators to become Loved, if the community wants it.

There may be other ways that I'm not really thinking of, but any method of getting a beatmap into the Loved category should have a significant part of the community play a large role in determining the result and not by any small group of users.

That said, maybe there can also be a new category of beatmap, "Notable", to allow mappers who want exposure to get what they want. I'm not too confident about how this would work, but you could probably just rename the current Loved category to this and it'd be okay for a while. I think this would work because I am of the belief that the only reason Loved is a goal for mappers who want exposure is because its an entirely different category which much fewer maps than the Ranked & Approved category, allowing their work to stand out more against the incredible amount of ranked maps present. My belief could be entirely wrong, though.

Hi

Well.. even if I dont have "morality" to talk about (because I have a map in loved just because it was unranked many time ago and I was really tired of remapping), I wanna say my opinion:
The issue of perfectly rankable sets in loved section is responsibility of BNG, in the sense that they can push it to the ranking section yet!
As Eph said, loved is a good place to get some visibility right now.


I'm agree with that 30 favs is very low, and 75 favs feels more "relevant" for a loved map.
But I'm not agree with ignore SP, I think that limiting the amount of stars for person will avoid the abuse.

Just lower the criteria if people think they are too high and bring voting back for old favorite maps that the creator has not intentions to update.This worked in the past and I don't see any problem using this method again. The problem is happening due to how ineffective the ranking system is right now but this will supposedly change when the new modding system goes live.

Also I don't see how 50SP + 100fav or 25SP +500fav is better than the current system.

So is this 100fav / 50sp in effect now? What about maps that already had reached old loved map criteria like https://osu.ppy.sh/s/376203 for months ?

Also if this is in fact in effect, would be nice if this was announced since I only knew this by word of mouth.

Sorry in advance if this was cleared / ask before, I just could not find the answer.

It isn't in effect. We'll announce any changes we make to the system when/if we make them.

In my opinion, the first system, where people could vote for the next Loved maps was the best, I mean it had more sense than nowadays Loved maps.
I already received some message from my friends that was asking me if I could shoot some kudos and a fav on their maps. But to me this system doesn't create a Loved map, the true Loved maps was the first ones that got Loved.

That's just my point of view, maybe it got stopped because the people that manage this was probably busy, and I can understand it. (I'm sorry if the reason why the system changed is different from what I'm saying, to be honest, I didn't read the text explaining why the Loved system changed.)

Have a good day everyone

The old voting system was bad because maps were chosen by the staff imo.

Maybe be a vote were people are free to submit their maps could be a good alternative idk.

The maps weren't chosen by the staff, actually. They were an aggregate of high favorite maps and random suggestions from a variety of "which map should be Loved" threads that were extremely popular at the time.

I didn't know, my bad.

My suggestion would be making a section for pending maps that aim to be loved so lets say BN's or high level mappers can nominate them every set amount of time. Then people vote. Its a good way to ensure quality without using sp

well this is wat i think
i kinda agreed with Natsu's post
however, i think community votes is still necessary (preclude the maps dat doesnt rly good), and the maps required only 100 favs, and it can be nominated by anyone (consider the mappers already quit or w/e)
imo sp isnt rly necessary in loved, cuz loved maps supposed to be popular gravedyarded maps (but u can still replace favs with kds)

The thread is too long and I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but in general, at least in my opinion the mapper should have no direct influence to if a map is loved or not. The point as I see it is that the loved section is supposed to be maps that the community loves, and then limiting one of those factors to not only be just a subset of the community (star rating), but also something the mapper themselves can directly manipulate kind of backwards. Letting the mapper have this control also makes it much easier to cop-out and "aim for loved" rather than actually going through with the ranking process. Loved shouldn't be an alternative to ranked, it should be specifically maps loved by the community. It shouldn't be a place to throw unrankable maps, or anything. Even if there is a good map using unrankable elements "aiming to get loved", the criteria for it to get there shouldn't just be "good, but unrankable", but also actually liked by a good portion of the community.

I think in general having some kind of preliminary voting for nomination, such as giving every player (or a subset if we want to go that route) a finite amount of votes on any map they love, then round up the maps with the most votes, and have a final voting round similar to what we had in the beginning could work. This would require implementing new functionality to the website or client though, as it needs to be something that's easy to do and also different from favorites, since people have been using favorites for a lot of things, and won't necessarily reflect what they love the most etc.

That's my pov anyway. I feel like the loved section right now feels more like an alternative to the ranked section where rules are much laxer, resulting in poor quality maps being loved, rather than what it truly should be; a reflection of maps the community deems good. In that sense, having maps that are already ranked in the loved section as well does make sense, if we think of it purely as a label for what the community enjoys, and not necessarily a completely different category.

+1 What Cxu said, I'm all for the voting rounds.
And for voting, perhaps splitting into categories of mapping settings / (which is usually related to submit era) come to mind.
For example "2009" "2010" etc?
I'm right now wondering how an old loved map such as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/16987 could achieve the Loved status, because as far as I understand and I could be wrong, it currently won't?
Every now and then I am looking into the Loved section, and I notice certain maps made recently with far less favourites are in there while some golden oldies are still missing in my humble opinion.
Especially when you take the relativity into account, for example the map I mentioned was from a time when the community was much smaller in size and reaching 100 favourites in those days was a much bigger thing than nowadays.

Anyway, I love the initiative and I am looking very much forward on all developments of osu! in the future.

Time to tidy this up, I think.

The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).

It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.

I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.

my opinion is relevant i swear i totally didn't come here cause i saw eph bitch on twitter


it would seem like a very easy idea to let the community decide which maps are loved or not through going to a qualification state (see what i did there) during where a map is open for play and after playing, people have to vote if they liked it or not (and not some arbitrary 1-10 scale that nobody will know how to use right) and if the map has a good enough positive/negative ratio, it gets loved.

seems like the most painless way to do things that gathers the biggest amount of data from players

someone fucking prevent me from entering these forums i keep giving my opinion on a game i have not touched in 2 years

i'd only support a voting thing if there's something like a suggest cool maps to be put up for a voting instead of ephemeral randomly hitting up all the places in order to get a list of maps that have a lot of favourites

wasn't there someone volunteering to oversee a voting list like this anyways

if you have like a criteria that goes among the lines of
mapper or map should be graved for X or visibly abandoned
vastly higher favourite count for this thing
and someone to do like the shitty work involved with that sort of thing

i think that could work

given that i know how the numberrunning on kd requirements went down halving the thing seems pretty agreeable, though i doubt that the favourite thing lowering the kd requirement is going to be all that clear for everyone unless you include a fucking calculator in some very obvious place and adjust secretary-chon's worst nightmares accordingly if you do that

Toy's mentioned on twitter that he'd like to help out, so I figure he'd be a good starting block.

I don't mean to be irrelevent but does it take really that long to get a map loved? I filled the form and sent a confirmation pm to Ephemeral on 18th March and nothing happened since :/

The system we had in the past was very rudimentary and prone to missing people. I sorted out a case earlier today where someone had been missed for nearly three months. Toss me a PM if you're concerned and I'll look into it.

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.

Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.

Everybody wins.

so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked

and approved maps are just that approved via a process

hi am really late
im in the minority but i honestly don't like the concept of a higher favorite barrier because it limits many of the most creative maps there are. You could make an entirely new section if you really had to, similar to loved except the maps would be hand-selected with the goal being to expose/give leaderboards to maps that lack the popularity to make it to loved as you proposed it.

if you do bring back voting, please try to keep each batch of maps fairly similar in qualities and favorites. Then you can tell for sure if the selected maps truly are what people'd prefer in loved; as it was, a good map being put in a bad batch could ruin its chances of being voted in. Maybe have a theme for each round, like maps around a certain amount of favorites, jump/stream practice maps, meta-bending maps, etc.

also, have you considered putting all unranked maps used in world cups into loved? they've certainly proved their quality, and probably deserve a leaderboard, don't you think?

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

ah yes the "we used to do this back in 2009" new idea

i don't mind it coming back really

Okorin wrote:

so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked

and approved maps are just that approved via a process

Guess we'll need to provision for them in the RC, yeah. Another topic entirely I think. Failing that, we can just also make special exceptions for Marathon maps.

Ephemeral wrote:

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.

I don't see issue here because if mapper had posted his map on the forums it already belongs to the community in some way. If community loves map and wants to see a leaderboard on specific mapset, mapper is not obliged to actively participate in this process.

Ephemeral wrote:

Time to tidy this up, I think.

The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).

It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.

I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.

When Rezoons Jump training maps then?

Alright, I read the whole thread and I'm ready to put my two cents in.

First, we need to clearly define "What is Loved supposed to accomplish" because surely we don't have this whole category to be cute, right?

Ephemeral wrote:

Over the years, a common complaint with the ranking cycle has been that it is fairly restricted for most people [...] especially if it tailors to a distinctive audience, or seeks to attempt gameplay paradigms that are not allowed by the current Ranking Criteria.

So we define "Loved" as attempting to highlight and immortalize maps that deserve attention or are cult classics, but explicitly do not and will not fit the criteria to be ranked. So, what's the best way to accomplish this task while avoiding pitfalls, explits, and controversy such as:

1. The creator of the map can easily manipulate the system to glorify themselves at the expense of the goal of the system.
2. Modders have a very controversial extra ability to impact the process.
3. Too many maps enter the Loved category too quickly.
4. osu!standard gets almost all of the slots because it's got the lions share of players.
5. The qualifier has multiple requirements that may not all be met, and are balanced together in a manner that attracts controversy in terms of unfair weighting between requirements.

Here's my suggestion for the Loved system that I think resolves all of these issues: Maps become qualified for Loved once they become a certain age (I suggest one year old) without being rankable, and have a certain amount of total plays (I suggest somewhere between 25,000 - 100,000) among a certain amount of unique players (I suggest 2,500). Lower standards can be applied to game modes other than standard.


Some commentary on what others have said in this thread:

burntcedar13 wrote:

we're involving sp because it's actually worthless otherwise [...] the loved section is supposed to be about the community (which is mostly players), not mappers.

Couldn't agree more. That seems to be the case as to why kudosu is involved - because the staff have failed to incentivize modding properly, so the reward for modding is being shoehorned into this system, to the system's explicit detriment and abuse.

melloe wrote:

[the modders] make the maps for you to play and they know more about mapping than the community

Do they know more about fun than the community, or do they know more about rules?

A severe dunking wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.

chainpullz wrote:

The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved.

Why are the people who focus on making something rankable whether it is fun or not getting an undue say on literally the exact opposite type of mapping category?

1. We will regularly be adding maps based on community votes.

with 100 SP being thrown by the mapper into their own map, its not relevant for now

Is it in effect yet?

Well actually.
I think have a standard on SP is quite a bad idea.Since shooting & earning stars are quite easy.
Nowdays,mappers who have 100+ kds aviliable is very common.So for some reason,it's teribbly easy to push a low-quality map to Loved state.(If they want)
The old voting system is a littke better but still bad.Because it's BN choose the maps which can be voted.There're some BNs' personal tastes.
And now fav effects SP? wtf.

I agree with Monstrata for his Loved-Score system.And I had a new idea called "Loved Switch" to solve the inactive-mappers problem.


Btw,I think the new system Ephemeral will be worse.First,it will make Rank more easily because fav effects SP.And because of the 50SP,send a map to loved state will be easier.
For high-level mappers,they have more than 100 fans.

most loved maps only have 1 diff tho

What about maps, where mapper is unable to do anything in this matter, for example because he's banned?
There are known and loved by people maps like this one:

JerryC - Canon Rock

Many people really hoped for this mapset to become loved, but then criteria changed and as the maps were being made Loved by staff at the beginning, then now mappers must fill in a form... which simply kills of maps like this one

I still hope that something can happen in this matter and maps like this one can become Loved.

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.

Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.

Everybody wins.

This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.

There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.

Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh

Raveille wrote:

This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.

There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.

Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

Arzenvald wrote:

^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh

It's still easy to evade, if you have two mappers with many stars and similar objectives. They simply can exchange stars, i.e. boost each other's mapset with own stars, giving exactly the same result as if they were to use them for their own maps.

Which means that it won't really affect these mappers, but the people without connections, who can have problem to get the stars in the first place, so they kind of more depend on community and more players (which is good?). With this, they will have it even harder, as they won't be able to use their own stars.

So, I think that doing this wouldn't change much, aside of:

1. making even bigger discrepancy between average mapper and the ones, who can throw high number of stars on their maps,
2. giving a birth to the Black Stars Market

rakuenslove wrote:

most loved maps only have 1 diff tho

And my idea is unfair for general.
what about cosidering drain time?
Loved points = (700+100*Std-diffs+50*Taiko-diffs+50*Mania-diffs+20*CtB-diffs)*(The longest drain time in mapset/180)
:thinking: