Let's talk about Loved.

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Introduced to fairly universal acclaim roughly 7 months ago, Loved was to be the grand solution to the age-old issue of the ranking cycle restricting or otherwise preventing maps that the community adored from receiving scoreboards.

Since then, Loved has gone from being a purely vote-only approach, with polls held in Community Voice every few weeks to determine which out of a set of 10 predetermined maps gets in, to the current system where simply having 100SP and 30 favourites is enough to enter the category at any time.

There has been a fair bit of discussion about the new requirements to enter the category. A fairly vocal portion of the community believes that the requirements are too strict - preventing good maps from entering the category. Others believe that the requirements are too lax, creating essentially a selection of maps that aren't really loved at all.

Let's take a look at the principle issues that are often brought up where Loved is concerned.

Requirements are too high

For some, the task of receiving 100 SP seems almost insurmountable. Unless you are an active modder or mapper, kudosu is a fairly precious resource. Convincing someone to "invest" in your map's future in Loved is difficult, especially if you're not well connected.

There seems to be no way besides either earning the kudosu yourself and dumping it on your map in the event that you cannot find people willing to support your work.

A number of maps widely considered to be loved (but not actually Loved) have hundreds or even thousands of favourites, but only paltry amounts of SP, preventing them from entering the category.

This is something that we can fix. Several commentators on the topic have suggested drastically lowering the SP requirement by half, reducing it to 50 SP - a value that a mapset of significant age is likely to encounter far more organically than 100. I don't disagree with this, and I think this is something that can be done.

Requirements are too low

On the flipside, maps with only 30 favourites cannot claim to be "loved" by any means of the measure, especially when favourites are simply garnered by people clicking a button upon visiting a beatmap listing.

Very rarely is the SP requirement brought up as being "too low", but the favourites argument is certainly more compelling and something that requires further consideration on our part. Raising it seems the most appropriate choice here.

Why is Star Priority even a factor in determining whether a map is Loved or not?

Doesn't this just lock the list of people capable of contributing meaningfully to Loved to the modding community?

In a way, it does. This was something we were aware of when introducing the SP requirement into the system.

For years, kudosu has been almost completely useless. Giving the modding community some well-earned power in determining the contents of a listing that would encompass adored and universally liked maps seemed appropriate, especially given that the modding community most of all has comprehensive experience in vetting these maps for play and helping them improve.

We want to preserve this approach, or at least some aspects of it. Modders should have a tangible and perceptible 'reward' for their efforts, especially when it takes hundreds or thousands of hours of work to obtain the SP required to elevate a map to Loved alone.

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.

How do we solve these problems?

This is why this thread exists. I'd like to hear what you think of the issue, and how you'd propose solving it. Keep in mind what has been said above. Please also remember that favorites are an 'effortless' resource - they only denote the number of players willing to click a button (essentially a like) without any further time investment.

What I would personally propose, is that the Loved requirements are reworked to be thus:

At a base level, a map with 50 SP and 100 favorites qualifies for Loved status.

For every 16 favorites obtained over 100, the SP requirement is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 25 SP at 500 favorites obtained.

A map with 1000 or more favorites immediately qualifies for Loved status, if its mapper asks for the map to be entered into the category.


What do you think should be done?

This is a lengthy post to begin a discussion with, but I figure it is important to lay out our methodology regarding these choices to make it a little clearer on what we want to achieve with this system, for all parties involved.
I think this is kind of a shitty issue because like, loved is supposed to be a section for maps that are generally liked by the community right? but maps don't have to actually be "good" maps to be liked by a big part of the community, which are mainly players.. while a big percentage of mappers would for example dislike the map a lot lol. I think that's the main issue here, and it's kind of hard to solve as you can't always satisfy both sides.
However, I do think the quality of maps in the loved section could be improved, there's some maps that honestly shouldn't be in there. Perhaps a bit extreme but some maps look like people's first ever maps, and I don't think those belong there.

In my opinion the best solution would be to go back to how it used to be, where staff (maybe even make a group of people for it that are up to date with popular maps etc) picks maps and then the community votes on which maps get added to the loved section. I believe staff has somewhat of an understanding of what good maps are so it'd probably be a better idea to do it like this. If this were to happen it would be nice if we get the option to make suggestions for maps that have over xx amount of favorites to be added to the polls, because there were quite some complaints as to why certain maps weren't in them.

Your proposition seems better than the requirements we have now, but it'd still cause the issue above.
While I enjoyed the voting since it was a more direct way to get maps the community loved out there, I get that the lack of participation at times along with the hopelessness for some people was definitely a problem.

The favorites method you propose is nice, as it absolutely gateways any "going for loved" maps from happening, but it severely limits certain modes with smaller communities where a fantastic map may only acquire around 40 favorites while in pending.

I think bringing SOME kind of voting system (where users propose maps) alongside the SP/Fav system would be nice, but I don't want one to make the other obsolete. There's something possible but I'm struggling to think of a good middle ground between being somewhat feasible and still gatekeeping low quality maps.
Nao Tomori
I agree with this idea. However, I believe that, since the requirement for SP can be reduced, it could also be possible to reduce the number of favorites. Obviously 100 favorites is quite a bit, considering that there are several hundred thousand maps and few ways to publicize them (main ones being Discord, the osugame subreddit, or Twitch streams.) As such, if a mapper wants to get a leaderboard on his map, I think it should be possible to do so with some large investment of SP - say 150, 200, whatever. To even get that much SP would require quite a lot of modding / "community contribution" so at that point the leaderboard would be more of a reward for contributions to the mapping community.

That said, I'm in full support of revisions to the system if it moved more in the direction of actually loved (or at least community recognized) maps. I know a lot of players constantly complain that terrible shitmaps get loved since those are the kind of things that tend to get 100 SP in the first place, due to new mappers constantly getting mods even though their fundamental mapping level is too low to make something rankable. nevermind the fact that half the "good maps" in loved are terrible shitmaps too

I look forward to further development of this discussion!
100 sp is super hard to farm, 50 sounds better, I'd just go with 50 SP (every 50 favs reduced by 10 the required SP?)

30 favs is way too low tbh, I'd said 100 favs

Vote system was bad also, because everyone voted for similar maps (High SR ones)

I liked when you guys picked the maps by hand, since we can actually see some gimmicks instead of High SR maps, ex: ,

Anyways I think community votes aren't good and 100 sp is way too high LOL, I'd just make a team of people checking maps by hand with a requirement of like 100 favs, but this also depends on what LOVED is supposed to be, if an alternative way to have a scoreboard for any map or a category to have gimmick/special maps.
i like the reworked requirements.

personally, i dont like the involvement of kudosu at all in this process since modders do not represent the community fully, especially the player community. the player community is the one gaining something in this situation after all, by getting more leaderboards to compete on.

i like the 100 favorite change tho, when a map has 100 favorites it's definitely loved by the community imo. 30 favs didn't feel like that.

i think the issue of inactive mappers' maps not getting loved could be fixed by a map over 1000 favorites immideatly achieveing loved status. if the mapper doesn't like it then they can request their map not have a leaderboard, since most people probably would want their map to have a leaderboard. there's nothing to lose by your map having a leaderboard so why would you not want one?
i wanna see a new voting system

requirements are 50 stars and 100+ favs but it is submitted into a loved queue manually by either the community or the mapper rather than having maps just being picked randomly

when voting comes around, higher ranked players have more power in the vote than lesser ranked players as most higher ranked players have more judgement on what maps are fun and great and what is just plain awful

dunno what to do with inactive mappers though,
i feel like combining the current system (or reducing the SP, but not the favorites) with a system of voting in batches works nicely - however, OzzyOzrock's point definitely is important

a quick search on osusearch only yields 37 unranked maps with at least one mania difficulty that have over 100 favorites, some of which are mixed sets, which might indicate that 100 is a bit steep for mania, and i'd be willing to bet that other non-standard modes also have similar difficulties.

it's also been proven, at least with regards to mania, though i don't doubt it's happened on other modes as well, that certain beatmappers have the power to abuse this concept of "loved" maps; i know of two maps in mania that had 100 SP dumped right onto it for the purpose of loved, one of which was the beatmapper of the map being loved in the first place; imo, the map wasn't all that great, and it certainly doesn't epitomize what the community "loves."

the number of favorites, imo, can be raised, because it takes much less effort to get a player to favorite your map if it is enjoyable. it doesn't take a detailed playtest and propositions of revision, it takes a playthrough and a click of a link. boom. something like 75 favorites might be a good middle-ground for all of the modes.

to counteract the SP reduction and make it possible to still keep the requirement at least respectably difficult, here's an idea: set the minimum SP to some value less than the current; 50 or 75 seems ok for this, however, put it under a contingency that no single user (including the beatmapper) can commit more than a certain fraction of the stars required for loved. 50% seems like an alright number. doing this requires the beatmapper to seek additional endorsement for the map - beatmapper has to commit SP, but also has to get others to do so as well. increased favorite count also makes it so that they have to seek more people to get the map to the status the desire.

just some thoughts.
Maybe bring back the voting system, and a then a minimum requirement (in terms of favs/kudosu) to be eligible for voting?
But then I feel that my proposed solution would really be iffy.

Sorta combining solutions here, but in short, my proposition is to have maps loved only through community voting. Come up with a formula that assigns a score to maps by favs/kudosu. Maps need to be of a minimum score in order to be on the list (not hard if your map is popular). The top 40 maps on the list are posted for weekly voting, and then say the top 10 become loved. Rinse recycle repeat?
What if maps under a certain amount of favourites have to be unrankable to begin with in order to be loved. This stops people too lazy to rank getting their maps loved instead and give mappers a reason other than aspire to do crazy things. Hopefully this will create a mix of good creative maps and big stupid jump maps that the community loves. I'm not sure if I'm edging away from loved and more towards a home for creative unrankable maps but I'd definitely like to see more high quality maps in the loved section.

Regarding other gamemodes there's nothing stopping requirements being changed for smaller gamemodes to make it easier to get them loved. For mixed mapsets the gamemode with the highest requirements would be used to stop people shoving on a shit ctb diff for some easy loved.

For the actual requirements to get a map loved some sort of dynamic system where more stars requires less favs and vice versa. This way popular maps will have no trouble getting loved but also leaves the door open to less popular unknown mappers with new and unique maps.
Dont think the amount of favorites needed across different game modes should be normalized as some game modes have smaller / larger player bases. I like the suggested ideas though.
I have the giddiest smile right now. Thank you for this.

Gonna ping my video here, since I did make suggestions on how this system could be improved:
imo, mappers should not in any way have the capability to get their own maps loved. increasing the number of favorites would help, but I don't think even 150 favs shows a map is loved by the community. lots of the low quality maps in loved that no one actually cares about, would never have been in the loved section had the mappers not put it there themselves.

sp: the way I understood the main post's explanation of sp involvement, it sounded like you were just saying "we're involving sp because it's actually worthless otherwise." I do think sp should be worth something, but I don't think the loved section is the right place to just force it into relevancy. the loved section is supposed to be about the community (which is mostly players), not mappers.

idk I think that's about all I have to say. loved section is bad because mappers gained the ability to get their own maps loved, loved section used to be about the community, yeah.
typed on a phone, plz forgive errors #makelovedgreatagain
How about the kudosu thrown in has to be from at least 15-30 different people? It is more representative of "loved" by the community rather than the mapper dumping like 50 on a map (which is not that many), that is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.

LMT wrote:

How about the kudosu thrown in has to be from at least 15-30 different people? It is more representative of "loved" by the community rather than the mapper dumping like 50 on a map (which is not that many), that is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.
Why do I feel like I am an example of this statement =A=;;
using community vote again would be great, using a splash screen in main menu in-game for bigger exposure instead of adverting using osu!weekly only

additionally, is something like play counts (implemented in pending/wip, yeah) can be used to determine the maps being played frequent enough for being loved? if the goal is for 'loved', at least the part of community already been playing the map in regular basis for several times every day / week
1000 favorites for loved
a kudosu counts as 5 favorites
a single person can shoot only 10-15 kudosu at a map. they can shoot more but anything over 15 won't count towards the 1000.

numbers can be adjusted, the general idea is that a kudosu is like a more heavily weighted favorite and you can't have one or two people carrying the map to loved status via kudosu
I'd just like to throw this set out there, not trying to bash it too hard, since I'm on it.

O2i3 - TSLove
Mapped by [_Chichinya_]

This set has 36 difficulties, so that's enough to meet the requirement, and I believe this set was circlejerked into the loved category my the GDers. 36 of the 100 required stars are from just one of the GDers, and the top 5 star donators donated a total of 84 stars, and all happen to have a GD on the set.

That being said, this set isn't good, and even if it's not trying to be good, it's not what I believe loved sets should be -- fun. With respect to the creator, as I know they worked super hard pushing this to be loved, I think sets like these are the reason that loved maps have lost so much value. Over half of the taiko maps are the same thing with more or less notes, which is just super low quality for something "loved by the community." I can't speak for any other mode besides the standard difficulty, but I don't even want to talk about that.

I know some of my points have been brought up before in this thread, but I wanted to give this super recent example of a set that got loved that just... isn't. I'm sure there are others, and I'm not calling for a witch hunt. That being said, I don't think SP should really have much to do with the loving of a set, since you can donate a shitload of sp, but you can only donate one favorite, and that's a lot more accurate at representing the popularity of the set. Frankly, throwing SP at a loved set seems like a waste, since loved sets are not ranked sets, and SP (I personally believe) should be used to say, "hey, this map should be ranked because I, a modder, approve of the quality," and not "I have to give the SP I earned by making maps more suitable for rank to a map that is not going for rank." I hope that makes sense.

So basically what everyone else has been saying.

also lul just /np the set into #osu and see how many people recognize it that should give you a good idea of how popular it is
Hey there!

As a mapper who is trying to get more involved in the community, I find it hard for mappers (like myself) to get a beatmap loved, due to the requirements.
For example, maybe a mapper that's new to the community is trying to gain some sort of attention or recognition, and may turn to loved as a result.
I see Loved status as an objective for mappers who are trying to "stand out" in anyway, but it's hard for the "new to the community" mappers to be able to do so because first, they'd have to either be well known in the community already or they have to connect with people on osu! to spread their map like propaganda, but since those mappers have neither, it'll be difficult.
Honestly, if we were to ask others to favorite and drop kudosu in our maps, I feel like we'd have a broken system of just mappers giving each other favorites and kudosu back and forth, but oh well \ :/ /
I mean, the only way I think a beatmap could be determined to be loved is through favorites and kudosu. Initially, I thought if a mapper would just submit their beatmap and try to justify why they want it to be loved and why they think it should be loved is not justifiable, because there isn't really a guideline on what a Loved beatmap is supposed to be.
I think keeping the favorites and kudosu is the best way to determine whether a beatmap should be loved or not, but I would like to refer back to my previous point on how "new to the community" mappers won't have it easy to reach out and try to get favorites and kudosu. I really think lowering the requirements is the best way to go, I don't think we should put a lot of pressure on mappers and make them feel disappointed when they try to get recognition. I've longed to have something like Loved come out, and I congratulate the osu! team for being able to accomplish this.
For now, 50/100 SP seems like quite a lot, and for some reason, 30 favorites also.
I propose that:
- We could try to lower the requirements to about 10-20+ favorites, and ~25 SP
- Or, we could implement a system where the less kudosu or ranked beatmaps a mapper has, the lower their requirements, and vice versa otherwise.

My points probably don't make any sense, but this is just how I feel.

Let's try to encourage mappers who are trying to aim for loved!
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