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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Granger wrote:

I feel like the new ratings over value maps with a harsh difficulty spike but are otherwise easy.
My new top rank is one of these maps - the first few seconds are brutal but after that its easymode. Im certain i've FCed overall harder maps. I didnt expect that one to become my top rank, at all.

Also interresting: A large part of my new top ranks are 1x miss plays now, while i generally think it is good that FC doesnt matter as much anymore this gets me curious.
FC is generally a bit less important now, even though having a higher combo is still greatly rewarded.

Maps having single difficulty spikes and being overrated as a cause of these is something I also wanna look into since it seems to be something brought up quite frequently. This shouldn't be hard to adjust if some tests confirm it being problematic. :)

Ryou ark wrote:

Really taking away pp is looking more and more dumb.. (atleast taking away much pp.. like 2k.. thanks)

I can live with that.. but what angers me the most is that i have to play maps like a 3k pp player (being now a 1k one) and get the same or even less amount of pp, which now discourages me completely :/
You don't understand how pp works if you think like that. I recommend reading the wiki article about pp:
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points ;)



Storm-: Thank you very much for compiling that list of maps and explanations about their difficulty. This is very much appreciated!


Everyone: I can't tell you when the next big ctb update in terms of stars / pp will come. Right now I am on vacation and only pushed out the new ctb pp as fast as possible to get a christmas "gift/update" out. Please don't expect much of me during the next 1-2 months due to various other occupations. ^^'
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-
Good bye Tom,nice updates.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
thanks tom94 we lost faith in you but you got it back with a iron hand, we all love u now
Yukiteru Amano
409 posts
Joined September 2012
Yukiteru Amano
All my filthy pp gone... Ruined. XD
manjumochi
162 posts
Joined April 2013
manjumochi
Tom94, this makes (I believe) the pp calc in CtB on par with Std, it makes me annoyed when a "Easy" map (with mod) gets (a lot of) more pp than "Hard" map when the difficulty on both maps didn't say the same (the hard being harder).
Sorry for my bad english.

Have a Merry Christmas, everyone.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
What a titanic overhaul, comparable to the way rankings shifted when standard went from ppv1 to ppv2... Well, alright, not nearly as much as that, but still it's surprising that the old algorithm could have been THAT screwed in a fundamental level.
Crystallize
42 posts
Joined October 2014
Crystallize
Tom, with the old algorithm , you could get much pp from easy 5-6 stars.
And someone said that you cant get pp when you are playing same difficulty maps.Then with the new algorithm ,that means that those who played easy 5-6 stars then must play 5-6 star maps(impossible maps) even with the new star ranking?
Swimmy
76 posts
Joined March 2013
Swimmy

Simple27 wrote:

Tom, with the old algorithm , you could get much pp from easy 5-6 stars.
And someone said that you cant get pp when you are playing same difficulty maps.Then with the new algorithm ,that means that those who played easy 5-6 stars then must play 5-6 star maps(impossible maps) even with the new star ranking?
Na, it's just the fact that the average star count on maps has been reduced quite a bit. But you can still get lot's of pp with the good maps. Exemple: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/371595?m=2 (Overdose) was in the past past over 6 stars, I got 240 for that in the past. Now it's 5.62 or so but the same score gave me 329 pp. Maps 6 stars rated now are way harder then 6 stars in the past. So you don't need to play 6 stars maps now to get pp, you can get pp with a way lower star rating. Hope you understand what I rote.
Crystallize
42 posts
Joined October 2014
Crystallize

Givralii wrote:

Simple27 wrote:

Tom, with the old algorithm , you could get much pp from easy 5-6 stars.
And someone said that you cant get pp when you are playing same difficulty maps.Then with the new algorithm ,that means that those who played easy 5-6 stars then must play 5-6 star maps(impossible maps) even with the new star ranking?
Na, it's just the fact that the average star count on maps has been reduced quite a bit. But you can still get lot's of pp with the good maps. Exemple: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/371595?m=2 (Overdose) was in the past past over 6 stars, I got 240 for that in the past. Now it's 5.62 or so but the same score gave me 329 pp. Maps 6 stars rated now are way harder then 6 stars in the past. So you don't need to play 6 stars maps now to get pp, you can get pp with a way lower star rating. Hope you understand what I rote.

I understand,but i want to get some pp and i want some ctb maps not for pros but chalenging ,can you help me?
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
I'd say maps are getting challenging at around 4.5 stars now, maybe a bit lower even.

Though to be honest, if you're playing them just for pp, you won't improve much, but if you play to improve your skill in general your rank will rise with it eventually.
- Zik -
- Zik -
DT seems pretty weird, maps seem to give either too much or not enough pp.

Simple27 wrote:

I understand,but i want to get some pp and i want some ctb maps not for pros but chalenging ,can you help me?
If you want pp, look at other people's profiles who are around your rank and play their top ranks.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
6 stars should be really freaking hard to FC so i think its fine
Crystallize
42 posts
Joined October 2014
Crystallize

Zak wrote:

I'd say maps are getting challenging at around 4.5 stars now, maybe a bit lower even.

Though to be honest, if you're playing them just for pp, you won't improve much, but if you play to improve your skill in general your rank will rise with it eventually.
I dont play for pp,but its sad that i play some quite hard things and i dont even get 3 pp!
[Superstar]_old
[Superstar]_old
Cause you need to get better then you get more pp...
Salamat
60 posts
Joined October 2013
Salamat

Simple27 wrote:

I dont play for pp,but its sad that i play some quite hard things and i dont even get 3 pp!

You're still fairly "new", so I know you'll get better and you will start seeing pp gain. Just be patient, that's how I've been playing for the past year. :)
Scorpionek
Scorpionek
I can't really see how low AR with HD got any boost.
Tom, why did you abandon old maps? :cry:
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

Scorpionek wrote:

Tom, why did you abandon old maps? :cry:
Maybe they're not giving pp because they're not actually hard?
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
I dont know... id consider tiny hitcircles at low AR with HD pretty hard. Of course, only a part of the old maps is like that.
autofanboy
Elite Mapper / osu!trivium Champion
1,594 posts
Joined January 2011
autofanboy

Granger wrote:

I dont know... id consider tiny hitcircles at low AR with HD pretty hard. Of course, only a part of the old maps is like that.
It is not really that hard when you got the pace :<

Instead, the modern (2012-2014) maps are much considered as hard maps due to the high AR with high density of jumps, they are more appealing to the public appetites.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
High CS is underrated
CTB maps are overrated (with a few exceptions)
HD gives a little too much pp, tho i'd say high CS shoud get a pp bonus not just low AR
Stars seem way off when it comes to DT/NC
Everyone seems to have too much pp, maybe cut everyone's pp down by 10%-15%

Patterns like these are overrated, especially when they are repetitive (i lowered the AR from 9 to 4 for visibility)
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/228919?m=2

Similar: (again, AR lowered from 9 to 4 for visibility)
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=117580&m=2

Comparing this map with HR: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=57699&m=2 and this map nomod https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=49101&m=2:
Astrosexy is way harder than SOSO HR, i'd say astrosexy is underrated and SOSO overrated

Comparing these 2 (both with DT): https://osu.ppy.sh/b/104944?m=2 (3.81 stars) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/163639?m=2 (3.66 stars):
The "NO NAME" map is harder than the Miku song, actually i can't think of a single thing that makes the Miku song hard, i played harder 3 star maps.

Some underrated maps:
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=136553&m=2 - Can't tell if it's because i'm comparing it to CTB diffs
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=51308&m=2 - The timing required for those jumps is unreal
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37710&m=2 - Again, the timing required for the part in the middle is insane and the 2nd half by itself is way harder than 2.67 stars
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/42792?m=2 +HR - I guess the fact that high CS being underrated is mostly the cause of this
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45433&m=2 - You're looking at a 3.2 star map that has EZ scores in top50 and Exgon has 882 plays on it ( i don't know if he tried to FL or HR it or somethign)
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=73561&m=2 - Some realy hard patterns, shold be way more than 3 stars
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=59327&m=2 - The second half reminds me of neu
Some overrated maps:
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58064?m=2 - The jumps are hard but not hard enough to make this a 4.7 star map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/506395?m=2 - Nothing realy hard in this map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/165519?m=2 - Again, some jumps but not hard
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari
Going to say that CtB maps are worth too much.

Hard coverts like a lot of 0108 maps seem to be worth very little without a FC and even then it's quite poor compared to what you can get from a ctb map.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
ctb is fine,
HD gives a fine ammount anywhere between 20-50

stars are off cuz CTB is hard to calculate overall difficulty

everyone doesn't have to much pp that's the issue is there is not enough pp maps or so to speak there is very few 500 pp maps and once the top 10 or 5 do those maps you will have what i call a pp cap, which means you must either A: hardrock or B: DT.

older maps are abandoned because this is the new generation of ctb not switched on lotus style, switched on lotus and system of a down is not really all that tough compared to high apm maps like daze also it's ironic that you say old maps are abandoned by new pp @Scorpionek when your top rank is a tag4 map from 2010

the only thing i can agree with this thread thus far is that DT should be weighed a little more prob 10-15% that is all

if you people are wondering why 0108 maps are worth a lot, because of the big droplet change tag4 style maps and droplet maps are weighed a lot heavily more, that's why most 0108 maps are weighed pretty high

the only issue i can see with this pp change is FL and DT FL is very confusing to calculate and DT should be weighed a lot heavily more.

also idk why you guys are complaining about this, create feedback not opinions at least maps like aspire and shuffle heaven and freedom dive hdhr and velper's DT are being calculated instead of being worth 100 or less.
Riari
743 posts
Joined April 2013
Riari

Storm- wrote:

ctb is fine,
HD gives a fine ammount anywhere between 20-50

stars are off cuz CTB is hard to calculate overall difficulty

everyone doesn't have to much pp that's the issue is there is not enough pp maps or so to speak there is very few 500 pp maps and once the top 10 or 5 do those maps you will have what i call a pp cap, which means you must either A: hardrock or B: DT.

older maps are abandoned because this is the new generation of ctb not switched on lotus style, switched on lotus and system of a down is not really all that tough compared to high apm maps like daze also it's ironic that you say old maps are abandoned by new pp @Scorpionek when your top rank is a tag4 map from 2010

the only thing i can agree with this thread thus far is that DT should be weighed a little more prob 10-15% that is all

if you people are wondering why 0108 maps are worth a lot, because of the big droplet change tag4 style maps and droplet maps are weighed a lot heavily more, that's why most 0108 maps are weighed pretty high

the only issue i can see with this pp change is FL and DT FL is very confusing to calculate and DT should be weighed a lot heavily more.

also idk why you guys are complaining about this, create feedback not opinions at least maps like aspire and shuffle heaven and freedom dive hdhr and velper's DT are being calculated instead of being worth 100 or less.
CTB is worth too much to be honest - in specific ways. Lots of the maps seem to be weighted nicely, specifically a lot of Rains that are below 200 and such, but then maps like this appear. This map is horrible over-weighted in my opinion and it really shows by the leaderboards. In general maps seem to be nicely weighted but the higher you go it seems the more ridiculous the pp amount gets.

Then we go onto coverts, maps are worth barely anything compared to ctb-specifics unless you go to the stupidly overweighted or to the downright ridiculous. You might say that ctb maps should be worth more, but with such a small pool of maps and no large diversity within the maps, this only caters to specific players.

In terms of the accuracy weighting, it's a bit upsetting. 99% of the time, SS isn't something that is hard to get, but if you look towards the pp differences you'll see some large differences at times that seem a bit too big in my opinion.

Mods. Supporting a DT increase and maybe something to work out the kinks as it is worth a lot or very little, with the large amount being much harder to find without going into plays done by 2-3 players tops. Not keen on FL but I stay clear of that so I'm not gonna throw anything at that.


tl;dr PP spread sucks, ctb is fine or over-weighted, coverts are worth nothing or too much.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Storm- wrote:

everyone doesn't have to much pp that's the issue is there is not enough pp maps or so to speak there is very few 500 pp maps and once the top 10 or 5 do those maps you will have what i call a pp cap, which means you must either A: hardrock or B: DT.
There shouldn't be ANY 500pp map other than maybe some exgon score, 500pp plays should be hard to get. There's 4 500+ pp plays in standard. In ctb: I could count more than 15 just looking at a few profiles. The game with like 3k active players has 15 500pp plays and the game with like 80k active players has 4 500pp plays. People have way too much pp.

Storm- wrote:

stars are off cuz CTB is hard to calculate overall difficulty

Storm- wrote:

also idk why you guys are complaining about this, create feedback not opinions at least maps like aspire and shuffle heaven and freedom dive hdhr and velper's DT are being calculated instead of being worth 100 or less.
Seems a lot easier than in standard from my pov. The pp system is better i'll agree, but it's far from perfect. I don't see anyone complaining, people are giving whatever feedback they can.

Storm- wrote:

the only thing i can agree with this thread thus far is that DT should be weighed a little more prob 10-15% that is all
DT right now is completly broken. If i sort maps by stars and play them one by one, the difficulty is very inconsistent. You could barely pass one map and then FC the next one in 2 tries. DT needs a complete rework.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
end time dt is really hard
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Stop saying "people have too much pp" because you're comparing it to standard, you DO NOT compare a system to a system for another mode, they're not supposed to be just about the same, while I do agree the maps giving 500pp are weighted too much, I wouldn't agree with updating the system unless it can still weigh the actual hard maps high enough without the really easy shit like Go Berzerk getting an explosion of pp.

Everyone has already seen those few maps that give too much, but aside from that (not counting DT since it does need some rework) the system seems to be decently balanced. Everyone is just going to have to wait for Tom to have a chance to tweak things again in a couple more months. Just don't convince him to completely change everything again since we're definitely heading in the right direction currently.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

Zak wrote:

Stop saying "people have too much pp" because you're comparing it to standard, you DO NOT compare a system to a system for another mode, they're not supposed to be just about the same, while I do agree the maps giving 500pp are weighted too much, I wouldn't agree with updating the system unless it can still weigh the actual hard maps high enough without the really easy shit like Go Berzerk getting an explosion of pp.

Everyone has already seen those few maps that give too much, but aside from that (not counting DT since it does need some rework) the system seems to be decently balanced. Everyone is just going to have to wait for Tom to have a chance to tweak things again in a couple more months. Just don't convince him to completely change everything again since we're definitely heading in the right direction currently.
But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

eldnl wrote:

But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
play for fun, i think we all learned that while playing without rankings for quite some time.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

Storm- wrote:

eldnl wrote:

But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
play for fun, i think we all learned that while playing without rankings for quite some time.
allright
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-

Storm- wrote:

eldnl wrote:

But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
play for fun, i think we all learned that while playing without rankings for quite some time.
that's ironic coming from you.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30

-Ryuujii- wrote:

that's ironic coming from you.
ohhhhh buuuurrrrns..but for real though, no disputes pls qwq
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
I have something to point out, under my experience as a ctb player, a jump without an hyperdash when it's close to it can be way harder than an hyperdash jump, hard jumps without hyperdash are not giving enough pp. I will use this map as an example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/456933?m=2 - It is a hard map overall, but not enough to give 480 pp, it is just because of the huge hyperdash jumps, while maps like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/108021?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/157861?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/226605?m=2 - is not even worth to fc them for pp, and of course, they are harder than the previous map.

I can't be sure if this is just me, someone support?
Seph
Seph
I was wondering how the two diffs on my approval map The Pretender when clearly Fruitender is way harder than Crystal (jumps vs stream) both having 4.85 star rating.
Naywils
66 posts
Joined October 2013
Naywils
People could just play, would be way more fun.
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl
Guess what, they don't because pp's the ultimate pleasure.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

Laharl wrote:

Guess what, they don't because pp's the ultimate pleasure.
the pleaseure of achieving something :*
Ibuki Mioda
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Ibuki Mioda
I actually like gaining pp ever now and then to let myself know I'm getting better. May never be on top but when you never see anything to signify improvement you tend to quickly lose interest and abandon it.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
It's also really easy to track your improvement when you simply improve old scores.
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
I want back to ppv1
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
No
Axiaan
350 posts
Joined December 2013
Axiaan
Don't get pp depending of the difficulty.

For exemple :
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/234923 (difficulty Extreme)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51945 (difficulty Uran's CTB)

These two map have the same stars difficulty : 3.28.
But, the second map (Dare so Ka no Gekka) is very hard compared to the first. Only 29 players have no miss on this map.
And, here's the pps for these map when we SS :


The hardest map give less pp than the easiest.
So if hard map gave less pp than "easy" map, it's not very normal. :/
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
It doesn't happen often, but there's no such thing as a perfect system so you can always expect to find flaws somewhere.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Zak wrote:

It doesn't happen often, but there's no such thing as a perfect system so you can always expect to find flaws somewhere.
Index » osu! » Gameplay & Rankings » Catch the Beat » Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
ikin5050
589 posts
Joined February 2014
ikin5050
I get that TAG4 is extremely hard but why is so much of what we're seeing giving high (400+) pp a convert? shouldn't ctb specific maps be favored a little bit more because they were made to be hard specifically for this mode, and not a convert that got lucky and turned out to be really hard

TAG4 isn't even rankable, does that mean they should get unranked? in my mind it does...
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
CtB maps are not exactly "made to be hard for CtB" even though lately some mappers have gone down that road of making maps just to be hard, but I don't think they should be favored more as that already happened and that system was horribly flawed as there just simply aren't enough specifics, I think if TAG4's were removed from pp that would be understandable as it isn't considered playable on CtB in all honesty even if they're all theoretically possible to FC.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
TAG4 deserves the amount of pp it is giving, just look at how many FC's they have, Catch the Beat specific difficulties shouldn't give any extra pp just for being specific difficulties, that makes no sense.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
bug?

SPOILER

Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/473697?m=2
Axiaan
350 posts
Joined December 2013
Axiaan
How do you have the number of PP in the scoreboard ? o_O
It's a bug, I hope for you.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30


Is the FL-Buff really supposed to be that strong in comparison to a FC?
OSUjanaiKATSURAda
394 posts
Joined December 2012
OSUjanaiKATSURAda

Kingkevin30 wrote:

Is the FL-Buff really supposed to be that strong in comparison to a FC?
and i think RAMPAGE HDDT score worth more pp than AlZer0 HD score ( less pp because of number of misses ) not fair And yerti because of 6 more misses his pp dropped by 70 pp ... ?
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Not quite sure if losing 70pp for 6 more misses is fair but rampage losing so much for 27 is definitely fair, that's a huge number of misses.
Empress Junko
Empress Junko
I assume that point of new pp was >power play< and any forms of pp farming would not exist, I'm right or I'm right?
Basically, I don't understand the point of HT gains. I mean, it's score, AR is slower but... well, RYUUTA is slower as well. It doesn't really matter if map is longer when few aspects makes it REALLY easy. If we are going with the flow, somebody would say "but it's fine at it is" but it's not. So, my personal request is to devalue HT gained pp to point where it doesn't matter aka HT should give 0 or only 50pp for ANY map. HTHR is fine, not just the same HT or HDHT. If community seeks a way of casuality, I reccomend using EZDT or EZ in general.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Cblt wrote:

I assume that point of new pp was >power play< and any forms of pp farming would not exist, I'm right or I'm right?
Basically, I don't understand the point of HT gains. I mean, it's score, AR is slower but... well, RYUUTA is slower as well. It doesn't really matter if map is longer when few aspects makes it REALLY easy. If we are going with the flow, somebody would say "but it's fine at it is" but it's not. So, my personal request is to devalue HT gained pp to point where it doesn't matter aka HT should give 0 or only 50pp for ANY map. HTHR is fine, not just the same HT or HDHT. If community seeks a way of casuality, I reccomend using EZDT or EZ in general.
Can you give an example of one such "HT gains" map that isn't an overrated pp map nomod in the first place?
Empress Junko
Empress Junko

PakaChan wrote:

Can you give an example of one such "HT gains" map that isn't an overrated pp map nomod in the first place?
CLSW's Halozy - Genryuu Kaiko, Spectator's Hatsuki Yura - Yoiyami Hanabi and don't tell me they are overrated in NO-MOD. (well, I can't really tell if Hidden and HR is correct as well) ;w;
There are many examples where HT is just... wrong and it's STILL easier.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
Yes they are.
Empress Junko
Empress Junko
No real need for HT then, of course other than "mlg" plays. :^^
MBomb
MBomb

Cblt wrote:

PakaChan wrote:

Can you give an example of one such "HT gains" map that isn't an overrated pp map nomod in the first place?
CLSW's Halozy - Genryuu Kaiko, Spectator's Hatsuki Yura - Yoiyami Hanabi and don't tell me they are overrated in NO-MOD. (well, I can't really tell if Hidden and HR is correct as well) ;w;
There are many examples where HT is just... wrong and it's STILL easier.
You essentially just said "Don't tell me two of the most overrated no mod maps are overrated no mod".
Empress Junko
Empress Junko
What exactly does that change when HT is still easier? Should be nerfed. :p
Maps aren't the biggest problem here.
MBomb
MBomb

Cblt wrote:

What exactly does that change when HT is still easier? Should be nerfed. :p
Maps aren't the biggest problem here.
I agree that it should be nerfed, but in the way you're saying, is kinda over the top. It's like saying "HD shouldn't give pp because it makes the game easier for some people".
Empress Junko
Empress Junko
I get your point Bomb and I'm kinda happy that we agree that HT should be nerfed.
HT is kinda specific and it should be discussed in different way tho'. It's still making your catcher go a bit slower than usual and map lenght
slightly doesn't matter at this point. :v
Last edited by Empress Junko , edited 1 time in total.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30
welp, since here is almost nothing going on im just gonna compile the most mentioned opinions on what is over/under-rated and why that could be.

Pakachan : High CS is underrated | Stars seem way off when it comes to DT/NC | symetric angled hyperdashpatterns are overrated.
(examples from TUA4R and End Time) | The Top Perfomance Map Values are too high and create a too big pp-gap between simular skill levels
since im not the guy to make any validations on High Level Play i collected the Top40-PP Plays of the #15 to #1 Players,
so i would like to know your opinions on exactly which maps are over/under-rated (only including Top50 records, because Osu!Stats)

Zak: I wouldn't agree with updating the system unless it can still weigh the actual hard maps high enough without the really easy shit like Go Berzerk getting an explosion of pp.
EZ+DT & HT Abusement *kappa* *kappa* *kappa*

Eldnl: a jump without an hyperdash when it's close to it can be way harder than an hyperdash jump, hard jumps without hyperdash are not giving enough pp.
i can really agree on that, most of the examples that Eldnl posted are well known hard maps with few hyperdashes that got a way lower rating then they deserved

Kingkevin30: the FL-Buff seems a bit too high on examples like the Osu!Stream compilation | Half-Time is still valued a bit too high in comparison to how easy it makes some clustered fast patterns | some Platewalk Maps get a way too high boost | EZ+DT increases the Platewalk issue even more & is generally valued too high

EZ+DT abusement



Banned Forever Pattern
Banned Forever is pretty much known for it's Rocket Jump which is really hard to get when playing Nomod since it requieres quite accurate movement
and fast repeating movements from left to right.....but when EZ is applied the CS changes and the suddle distance that made that pattern so hard to play is just gone, and you just have to stand around to get it done.



Regarding Owens i don't really know if the value is maybe acepptable, but im also guessing that its something about it's streams that is getting misscalculated while using EZ+DT, because i can't really comprehend why EZ+DT should give more pp then a HR+HD FC on it...its just absurd..
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
pp algo should consider if we need to move for catching fruits like in banned forever. I did a shit 54 stars' map that you can fc without pressing any key for moving. The only thing that can be hard in this type of patern it's the catcher placement (when you don't need to move like in banned forever with EZ + DT).
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
I have this issue with the star rating, both songs are rated 3.50 stars but their difficulty is way different, not entirely sure what causes this. (Its not the AR of Soushou Innocence, i considered that but even when i edit the AR down to AR9 the result is only marginally better.)

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/413171

This is the result of 3 no fail plays after failing it without no fail like 20 times.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/509915

This is the result of mere 3 plays... (of which the first two were utter shit because lolwarmingup)
Looking at how i do at the other songs around that range id say menu ne is overrated while soushou is underrated.
Time-
364 posts
Joined July 2013
Time-
DT should really really be nerfed



I know that some map is harder with DT than HR, but for a 2-3 star map HR is harder than DT and should give more pp
map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/630519?m=2

edit: since I'm not really good with HR, I might be wrong ;w;
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo

Time- wrote:

DT should really really be nerfed



I know that some map is harder with DT than HR, but for a 2-3 star map HR is harder than DT and should give more pp
map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/630519?m=2

edit: since I'm not really good with HR, I might be wrong ;w;
lol
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
Just make EZ worth less with DT because of AR
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30


It's good to see that Tom is aware of the situation, and i also would've thought that fixing those issues will totally mess up the other calculations
-PM-
68 posts
Joined August 2012
-PM-


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do i need to say another word?

EZ have to be nerfed!!!
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan
Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested
SPOILER

Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30

PakaChan wrote:

Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested
SPOILER

wow, thats really interesting, but how did you get the data of apperances?
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Kingkevin30 wrote:

wow, thats really interesting, but how did you get the data of apperances?
Wrote some code,requested ~1500 pages from the site, put them in a database. (i hope i don't get in trouble for that)
-PM-
68 posts
Joined August 2012
-PM-

PakaChan wrote:

Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested
SPOILER

So many pp farmers, so little pp maps.
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
PP maps are ctb maps. My top 10 pp are only ctb maps.
sovy
119 posts
Joined May 2014
sovy
Because 10 billion hyperdashes in a 3 minute song aren't enough. Okay.
sad weeb_old
sad weeb_old
If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

sad weeb wrote:

If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.
someone missed the the december update
sad weeb_old
sad weeb_old

PakaChan wrote:

sad weeb wrote:

If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.
someone missed the the december update
as if you're implying HT still doesnt give a stupid amount of pp for scores
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

sad weeb wrote:

HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without
Well this part is very inaccurate, but yes HT does still need another nerf, as does EZ mod, Tom will do it eventually, just be patient.
misogi_old_1
misogi_old_1

-Kurisu- wrote:

It isn't accurate at all IMO to put so much weight on ctb specific maps, especially since there are so few. There are plenty of standard maps that translate into fun and difficult ctb maps. Also the best performance shouldn't be filled with easy SS's...
wow one year later and look at where we still are
Naywils
66 posts
Joined October 2013
Naywils
However they balance things people are always going to be upset about it ;3
Rockageek
125 posts
Joined June 2013
Rockageek
In my opinion, there is something missing in the algorithm, something that could detect shitpatterns which do not contain any hyperdash, complex moves that requires alot of skill and accuracy.

for example
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=137840&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45918&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/123708&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66514&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=344619&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=374400&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289256&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37658&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=255705&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=298880&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=153484&m=2
I hope some players will understand my point of view about this.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

Rockageek wrote:

In my opinion, there is something missing in the algorithm, something that could detect shitpatterns which do not contain any hyperdash, complex moves that requires alot of skill and accuracy.

for example
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=137840&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45918&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/123708&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66514&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=344619&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=374400&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289256&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37658&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=255705&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=298880&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=153484&m=2
I hope some players will understand my point of view about this.
I love you.
Seph
Seph
but nooo repetitive patterns and hyperdash spam is what makes everything hard!

jumps are like dongers, the longer the better
Hemmi
98 posts
Joined May 2013
Hemmi
...
Last edited by Hemmi , edited 1 time in total.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Gunsillie wrote:

So, my question has probably already been answered, but here I go:
If I'm not mistaken, it was stated in the wiki that PP are calculated taking into account the popularity of the map. However, in CtB the player pool is way less big, so the algorithm that evaluates the popularity of the map needs to give way higher bonuses comparatively to std for the same number of plays.
Is it only a std thing, does it even still exist?
PP doesn't depend on map popularity anymore.
MBomb
MBomb

Seph wrote:

but nooo repetitive patterns and hyperdash spam is what makes everything hard!

jumps are like dongers, the longer the better
Plus 1/4 HDash spam fits every song!!!!!!11!!!!!!one!!!
Ibuki Mioda
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Ibuki Mioda
Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...
big mistake that needs a big change D:
sovy
119 posts
Joined May 2014
sovy

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...
This shouldn't happen. In theory.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
It won't be an issue when you get to keep your higher pp score when you get a higher score by using HR
Ibuki Mioda
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Ibuki Mioda

Zak wrote:

It won't be an issue when you get to keep your higher pp score when you get a higher score by using HR
Umm that is what I'm talking about... It removed all points earned and pp received to 1% of base due to playing HR instead of my lower score on DT which scored 100% of possible pp earned. Here is a picture of what I mean... only hopes now is to play it dt/hr which is pretty hard with cs 6.5

http://puu.sh/i7lu5/d9c3060d5f.jpg
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Yes but eventually you will get to have 2 separate scores per map, one for highest pp and another for your best score.
Ibuki Mioda
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Ibuki Mioda

Zak wrote:

Yes but eventually you will get to have 2 separate scores per map, one for highest pp and another for your best score.
Oh ok, so like 2 seperate ranking systems. Makes more sence since some maps are more difficult with mods that award less points for score.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Why not get rid of score ranking ?
Ibuki Mioda
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Ibuki Mioda

Drafura wrote:

Why not get rid of score ranking ?
Kind of the purpose anyone plays. Without goals or motivation people would no longer come back to play. Not sure if Peppy would be happen with a large loss of players.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Drafura wrote:

Why not get rid of score ranking ?
And replace it with what? This joke pp system?
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=17908&m=2 Please nerf the pp this map gives in DT. It isn't even hard and it gives way too much pp. The Expert is overrated as well, but at least it is tricky in spots.
Ibuki Mioda
37 posts
Joined August 2014
Ibuki Mioda

TheVileOne wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=17908&m=2 Please nerf the pp this map gives in DT. It isn't even hard and it gives way too much pp. The Expert is overrated as well, but at least it is tricky in spots.
Lol that song is from 2008 and surprisingly the scores from it reflects that almost no one plays it anymore if you can reach near the top on first attempt so I don't think it even matters. Then again if they used the old pp system it might even bring back all the people that retired shortly after like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=17908&m=2 Please nerf the pp this map gives in DT. It isn't even hard and it gives way too much pp. The Expert is overrated as well, but at least it is tricky in spots.
Lol that song is from 2008 and surprisingly the scores from it reflects that almost no one plays it anymore if you can reach near the top on first attempt so I don't think it even matters. Then again if they used the old pp system it might even bring back all the people that retired shortly after like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.
There's over 50 people with DT scores on that map. They are just off the leaderboard because HR is easier has a higher multiplier and probably worth much less pp.
PakaChan
164 posts
Joined August 2013
PakaChan

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.
Omg, she lost a fake number showing her "skill", what can she do without her precious go berzerk top rank??
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