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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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manjumochi
At least this new star system (and pp) have better balance than before, gj osu! dev team.
Ryou ark
Really taking away pp is looking more and more dumb.. (atleast taking away much pp.. like 2k.. thanks)

I can live with that.. but what angers me the most is that i have to play maps like a 3k pp player (being now a 1k one) and get the same or even less amount of pp, which now discourages me completely :/
Topic Starter
Tom94

Granger wrote:

I feel like the new ratings over value maps with a harsh difficulty spike but are otherwise easy.
My new top rank is one of these maps - the first few seconds are brutal but after that its easymode. Im certain i've FCed overall harder maps. I didnt expect that one to become my top rank, at all.

Also interresting: A large part of my new top ranks are 1x miss plays now, while i generally think it is good that FC doesnt matter as much anymore this gets me curious.
FC is generally a bit less important now, even though having a higher combo is still greatly rewarded.

Maps having single difficulty spikes and being overrated as a cause of these is something I also wanna look into since it seems to be something brought up quite frequently. This shouldn't be hard to adjust if some tests confirm it being problematic. :)

Ryou ark wrote:

Really taking away pp is looking more and more dumb.. (atleast taking away much pp.. like 2k.. thanks)

I can live with that.. but what angers me the most is that i have to play maps like a 3k pp player (being now a 1k one) and get the same or even less amount of pp, which now discourages me completely :/
You don't understand how pp works if you think like that. I recommend reading the wiki article about pp:
http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points ;)



Storm-: Thank you very much for compiling that list of maps and explanations about their difficulty. This is very much appreciated!


Everyone: I can't tell you when the next big ctb update in terms of stars / pp will come. Right now I am on vacation and only pushed out the new ctb pp as fast as possible to get a christmas "gift/update" out. Please don't expect much of me during the next 1-2 months due to various other occupations. ^^'
-Ryuujii-
Good bye Tom,nice updates.
iiyo
thanks tom94 we lost faith in you but you got it back with a iron hand, we all love u now
Yukiteru Amano
All my filthy pp gone... Ruined. XD
manjumochi
Tom94, this makes (I believe) the pp calc in CtB on par with Std, it makes me annoyed when a "Easy" map (with mod) gets (a lot of) more pp than "Hard" map when the difficulty on both maps didn't say the same (the hard being harder).
Sorry for my bad english.

Have a Merry Christmas, everyone.
Vuelo Eluko
What a titanic overhaul, comparable to the way rankings shifted when standard went from ppv1 to ppv2... Well, alright, not nearly as much as that, but still it's surprising that the old algorithm could have been THAT screwed in a fundamental level.
Crystallize
Tom, with the old algorithm , you could get much pp from easy 5-6 stars.
And someone said that you cant get pp when you are playing same difficulty maps.Then with the new algorithm ,that means that those who played easy 5-6 stars then must play 5-6 star maps(impossible maps) even with the new star ranking?
Swimmy

Simple27 wrote:

Tom, with the old algorithm , you could get much pp from easy 5-6 stars.
And someone said that you cant get pp when you are playing same difficulty maps.Then with the new algorithm ,that means that those who played easy 5-6 stars then must play 5-6 star maps(impossible maps) even with the new star ranking?
Na, it's just the fact that the average star count on maps has been reduced quite a bit. But you can still get lot's of pp with the good maps. Exemple: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/371595?m=2 (Overdose) was in the past past over 6 stars, I got 240 for that in the past. Now it's 5.62 or so but the same score gave me 329 pp. Maps 6 stars rated now are way harder then 6 stars in the past. So you don't need to play 6 stars maps now to get pp, you can get pp with a way lower star rating. Hope you understand what I rote.
Crystallize

Givralii wrote:

Simple27 wrote:

Tom, with the old algorithm , you could get much pp from easy 5-6 stars.
And someone said that you cant get pp when you are playing same difficulty maps.Then with the new algorithm ,that means that those who played easy 5-6 stars then must play 5-6 star maps(impossible maps) even with the new star ranking?
Na, it's just the fact that the average star count on maps has been reduced quite a bit. But you can still get lot's of pp with the good maps. Exemple: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/371595?m=2 (Overdose) was in the past past over 6 stars, I got 240 for that in the past. Now it's 5.62 or so but the same score gave me 329 pp. Maps 6 stars rated now are way harder then 6 stars in the past. So you don't need to play 6 stars maps now to get pp, you can get pp with a way lower star rating. Hope you understand what I rote.

I understand,but i want to get some pp and i want some ctb maps not for pros but chalenging ,can you help me?
Zak
I'd say maps are getting challenging at around 4.5 stars now, maybe a bit lower even.

Though to be honest, if you're playing them just for pp, you won't improve much, but if you play to improve your skill in general your rank will rise with it eventually.
- Zik -
DT seems pretty weird, maps seem to give either too much or not enough pp.

Simple27 wrote:

I understand,but i want to get some pp and i want some ctb maps not for pros but chalenging ,can you help me?
If you want pp, look at other people's profiles who are around your rank and play their top ranks.
Vuelo Eluko
6 stars should be really freaking hard to FC so i think its fine
Crystallize

Zak wrote:

I'd say maps are getting challenging at around 4.5 stars now, maybe a bit lower even.

Though to be honest, if you're playing them just for pp, you won't improve much, but if you play to improve your skill in general your rank will rise with it eventually.
I dont play for pp,but its sad that i play some quite hard things and i dont even get 3 pp!
[Superstar]_old
Cause you need to get better then you get more pp...
Salamat

Simple27 wrote:

I dont play for pp,but its sad that i play some quite hard things and i dont even get 3 pp!

You're still fairly "new", so I know you'll get better and you will start seeing pp gain. Just be patient, that's how I've been playing for the past year. :)
Scorpionek
I can't really see how low AR with HD got any boost.
Tom, why did you abandon old maps? :cry:
Zak

Scorpionek wrote:

Tom, why did you abandon old maps? :cry:
Maybe they're not giving pp because they're not actually hard?
Granger
I dont know... id consider tiny hitcircles at low AR with HD pretty hard. Of course, only a part of the old maps is like that.
autofanboy

Granger wrote:

I dont know... id consider tiny hitcircles at low AR with HD pretty hard. Of course, only a part of the old maps is like that.
It is not really that hard when you got the pace :<

Instead, the modern (2012-2014) maps are much considered as hard maps due to the high AR with high density of jumps, they are more appealing to the public appetites.
PakaChan
High CS is underrated
CTB maps are overrated (with a few exceptions)
HD gives a little too much pp, tho i'd say high CS shoud get a pp bonus not just low AR
Stars seem way off when it comes to DT/NC
Everyone seems to have too much pp, maybe cut everyone's pp down by 10%-15%

Patterns like these are overrated, especially when they are repetitive (i lowered the AR from 9 to 4 for visibility)
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/228919?m=2

Similar: (again, AR lowered from 9 to 4 for visibility)
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=117580&m=2

Comparing this map with HR: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=57699&m=2 and this map nomod https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=49101&m=2:
Astrosexy is way harder than SOSO HR, i'd say astrosexy is underrated and SOSO overrated

Comparing these 2 (both with DT): https://osu.ppy.sh/b/104944?m=2 (3.81 stars) https://osu.ppy.sh/b/163639?m=2 (3.66 stars):
The "NO NAME" map is harder than the Miku song, actually i can't think of a single thing that makes the Miku song hard, i played harder 3 star maps.

Some underrated maps:
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=136553&m=2 - Can't tell if it's because i'm comparing it to CTB diffs
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=51308&m=2 - The timing required for those jumps is unreal
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37710&m=2 - Again, the timing required for the part in the middle is insane and the 2nd half by itself is way harder than 2.67 stars
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/42792?m=2 +HR - I guess the fact that high CS being underrated is mostly the cause of this
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45433&m=2 - You're looking at a 3.2 star map that has EZ scores in top50 and Exgon has 882 plays on it ( i don't know if he tried to FL or HR it or somethign)
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=73561&m=2 - Some realy hard patterns, shold be way more than 3 stars
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=59327&m=2 - The second half reminds me of neu
Some overrated maps:
SPOILER
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/58064?m=2 - The jumps are hard but not hard enough to make this a 4.7 star map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/506395?m=2 - Nothing realy hard in this map
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/165519?m=2 - Again, some jumps but not hard
Riari
Going to say that CtB maps are worth too much.

Hard coverts like a lot of 0108 maps seem to be worth very little without a FC and even then it's quite poor compared to what you can get from a ctb map.
iiyo
ctb is fine,
HD gives a fine ammount anywhere between 20-50

stars are off cuz CTB is hard to calculate overall difficulty

everyone doesn't have to much pp that's the issue is there is not enough pp maps or so to speak there is very few 500 pp maps and once the top 10 or 5 do those maps you will have what i call a pp cap, which means you must either A: hardrock or B: DT.

older maps are abandoned because this is the new generation of ctb not switched on lotus style, switched on lotus and system of a down is not really all that tough compared to high apm maps like daze also it's ironic that you say old maps are abandoned by new pp @Scorpionek when your top rank is a tag4 map from 2010

the only thing i can agree with this thread thus far is that DT should be weighed a little more prob 10-15% that is all

if you people are wondering why 0108 maps are worth a lot, because of the big droplet change tag4 style maps and droplet maps are weighed a lot heavily more, that's why most 0108 maps are weighed pretty high

the only issue i can see with this pp change is FL and DT FL is very confusing to calculate and DT should be weighed a lot heavily more.

also idk why you guys are complaining about this, create feedback not opinions at least maps like aspire and shuffle heaven and freedom dive hdhr and velper's DT are being calculated instead of being worth 100 or less.
Riari

Storm- wrote:

ctb is fine,
HD gives a fine ammount anywhere between 20-50

stars are off cuz CTB is hard to calculate overall difficulty

everyone doesn't have to much pp that's the issue is there is not enough pp maps or so to speak there is very few 500 pp maps and once the top 10 or 5 do those maps you will have what i call a pp cap, which means you must either A: hardrock or B: DT.

older maps are abandoned because this is the new generation of ctb not switched on lotus style, switched on lotus and system of a down is not really all that tough compared to high apm maps like daze also it's ironic that you say old maps are abandoned by new pp @Scorpionek when your top rank is a tag4 map from 2010

the only thing i can agree with this thread thus far is that DT should be weighed a little more prob 10-15% that is all

if you people are wondering why 0108 maps are worth a lot, because of the big droplet change tag4 style maps and droplet maps are weighed a lot heavily more, that's why most 0108 maps are weighed pretty high

the only issue i can see with this pp change is FL and DT FL is very confusing to calculate and DT should be weighed a lot heavily more.

also idk why you guys are complaining about this, create feedback not opinions at least maps like aspire and shuffle heaven and freedom dive hdhr and velper's DT are being calculated instead of being worth 100 or less.
CTB is worth too much to be honest - in specific ways. Lots of the maps seem to be weighted nicely, specifically a lot of Rains that are below 200 and such, but then maps like this appear. This map is horrible over-weighted in my opinion and it really shows by the leaderboards. In general maps seem to be nicely weighted but the higher you go it seems the more ridiculous the pp amount gets.

Then we go onto coverts, maps are worth barely anything compared to ctb-specifics unless you go to the stupidly overweighted or to the downright ridiculous. You might say that ctb maps should be worth more, but with such a small pool of maps and no large diversity within the maps, this only caters to specific players.

In terms of the accuracy weighting, it's a bit upsetting. 99% of the time, SS isn't something that is hard to get, but if you look towards the pp differences you'll see some large differences at times that seem a bit too big in my opinion.

Mods. Supporting a DT increase and maybe something to work out the kinks as it is worth a lot or very little, with the large amount being much harder to find without going into plays done by 2-3 players tops. Not keen on FL but I stay clear of that so I'm not gonna throw anything at that.


tl;dr PP spread sucks, ctb is fine or over-weighted, coverts are worth nothing or too much.
PakaChan

Storm- wrote:

everyone doesn't have to much pp that's the issue is there is not enough pp maps or so to speak there is very few 500 pp maps and once the top 10 or 5 do those maps you will have what i call a pp cap, which means you must either A: hardrock or B: DT.
There shouldn't be ANY 500pp map other than maybe some exgon score, 500pp plays should be hard to get. There's 4 500+ pp plays in standard. In ctb: I could count more than 15 just looking at a few profiles. The game with like 3k active players has 15 500pp plays and the game with like 80k active players has 4 500pp plays. People have way too much pp.

Storm- wrote:

stars are off cuz CTB is hard to calculate overall difficulty

Storm- wrote:

also idk why you guys are complaining about this, create feedback not opinions at least maps like aspire and shuffle heaven and freedom dive hdhr and velper's DT are being calculated instead of being worth 100 or less.
Seems a lot easier than in standard from my pov. The pp system is better i'll agree, but it's far from perfect. I don't see anyone complaining, people are giving whatever feedback they can.

Storm- wrote:

the only thing i can agree with this thread thus far is that DT should be weighed a little more prob 10-15% that is all
DT right now is completly broken. If i sort maps by stars and play them one by one, the difficulty is very inconsistent. You could barely pass one map and then FC the next one in 2 tries. DT needs a complete rework.
iiyo
end time dt is really hard
Zak
Stop saying "people have too much pp" because you're comparing it to standard, you DO NOT compare a system to a system for another mode, they're not supposed to be just about the same, while I do agree the maps giving 500pp are weighted too much, I wouldn't agree with updating the system unless it can still weigh the actual hard maps high enough without the really easy shit like Go Berzerk getting an explosion of pp.

Everyone has already seen those few maps that give too much, but aside from that (not counting DT since it does need some rework) the system seems to be decently balanced. Everyone is just going to have to wait for Tom to have a chance to tweak things again in a couple more months. Just don't convince him to completely change everything again since we're definitely heading in the right direction currently.
eldnl

Zak wrote:

Stop saying "people have too much pp" because you're comparing it to standard, you DO NOT compare a system to a system for another mode, they're not supposed to be just about the same, while I do agree the maps giving 500pp are weighted too much, I wouldn't agree with updating the system unless it can still weigh the actual hard maps high enough without the really easy shit like Go Berzerk getting an explosion of pp.

Everyone has already seen those few maps that give too much, but aside from that (not counting DT since it does need some rework) the system seems to be decently balanced. Everyone is just going to have to wait for Tom to have a chance to tweak things again in a couple more months. Just don't convince him to completely change everything again since we're definitely heading in the right direction currently.
But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
iiyo

eldnl wrote:

But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
play for fun, i think we all learned that while playing without rankings for quite some time.
eldnl

Storm- wrote:

eldnl wrote:

But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
play for fun, i think we all learned that while playing without rankings for quite some time.
allright
-Ryuujii-

Storm- wrote:

eldnl wrote:

But the amount of pp doesn't matter, in overall, it is just a number. The problem is how the points are calculated, isn't?
play for fun, i think we all learned that while playing without rankings for quite some time.
that's ironic coming from you.
Kingkevin30

-Ryuujii- wrote:

that's ironic coming from you.
ohhhhh buuuurrrrns..but for real though, no disputes pls qwq
eldnl
I have something to point out, under my experience as a ctb player, a jump without an hyperdash when it's close to it can be way harder than an hyperdash jump, hard jumps without hyperdash are not giving enough pp. I will use this map as an example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/456933?m=2 - It is a hard map overall, but not enough to give 480 pp, it is just because of the huge hyperdash jumps, while maps like this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/108021?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/157861?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/226605?m=2 - is not even worth to fc them for pp, and of course, they are harder than the previous map.

I can't be sure if this is just me, someone support?
Seph
I was wondering how the two diffs on my approval map The Pretender when clearly Fruitender is way harder than Crystal (jumps vs stream) both having 4.85 star rating.
Naywils
People could just play, would be way more fun.
Laharl
Guess what, they don't because pp's the ultimate pleasure.
eldnl

Laharl wrote:

Guess what, they don't because pp's the ultimate pleasure.
the pleaseure of achieving something :*
Ibuki Mioda
I actually like gaining pp ever now and then to let myself know I'm getting better. May never be on top but when you never see anything to signify improvement you tend to quickly lose interest and abandon it.
Zak
It's also really easy to track your improvement when you simply improve old scores.
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