I feel having a rank is a really good thing only if the actual pp was accurate or if there was some other way to determine rank or something

I think everyone agrees that converts are much harder than ctb specifics and therefore should have a higher starrating but why exactly is that the case? Obviosly turning a map into a ctb specific does not change anything and will not get a higher starrating in return. The biggest difference in my opinion is that specifics use much more hyperjumps than converts and this is exactly where the problem is with the current difficulty algorhythm.
1. If you look at fullscreenjumps and halfscreenjumps they play exactly the same but the fullscreenjumps give a higher starrating.
2. Edgejumps are way harder to play than hyperjumps but give lower starrating (most of the time)
In order to solve this there is a very simple solution when calculating the difficulty of a map just change every value you'd give a hyperjump to the value you'd give a hyperjumptrigger (a note that is just far away to trigger a hyperdash / slightly higher distance than an edgejump)
In total this would not boost the converts but rather nerf the overwheighted ctb specifics.
Here are 5 difficulties I made (20 notes each) just to show how much starrating every pattern gives:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/739209#fruits/1559894
If you apply what I said for example all the hyperwalk maps would not be 10*+ but rather 3* because they would look like normal streams to the system (exactly how they are played as well)
1 more change I would make. Just let the system ignore notes in the beginning of the map where you do not need to move to catch them.
This would make all those 20-300* maps where you press nothing 0* and also with all the changes I think Der Wald would be an 8-10* map instead of 19* and maybe rankable then.
Just let me know what you think.

Pretty much everything you said has been said here before, it's just we have no one to make a new system at all so we're left with what we have.

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

Gln_Markus wrote:

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

????????? lmao

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

pp is a poopsystem

Gln_Markus wrote:

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

if you can do it you should talk to peppy

Seeing the recent tweaks being proposed for other gamemodes got me interested in seeing if any worthwhile, simple changes could be made for catch. Now any changes to the actual star rating calculation (which are sorely needed) are well beyond my ability but I came up with a few possible tweaks to the performance calculator which I think are worth considering.

I haven't been able to gather any sizeable amount of data on the impact of these changes, if anyone can assist with that it would be hugely appreciated. I do however have a couple of spreadsheets showing some relevant information

This spreadsheet includes a number of example beatmaps with current and proposed PP values

This spreadsheet compares current and proposed multipliers

PP values in these spreadsheets will be around ~1-2pp out due to the examples provided using rounded SR values

Scale accuracy penalty with beatmap total objects

The current accuracy penalty works well enough on shorter beatmaps with less overall objects due to individual droplets having a greater impact on overall accuracy. However with more total objects individual droplets have far less effect as accuracy in catch is just the percentage of objects caught (excluding spinners). Despite there typically being more droplets in a longer map, actual player droplet misses do not increase proportionally with the increase of objects in a map to compensate. As a result the current accuracy penalty is far weaker on higher combo beatmaps.

This proposal aims to scale the penalty with the number of total objects in a map (that contribute to accuracy) so the penalty remains relevant on longer maps. This helps to add more variety between player's performances and relatively buffs SS and high accuracy plays on longer maps.

Note that this still doesn't do anything to consider how difficult the droplets are to catch as calculating that would require changes to the actual catch difficulty calculation.

Example graph of penalty at 3000 total objects

Hidden bonus adjustments
Hidden is a bit of a mixed bag for players, it's incredibly difficult for some and can be considered a reading aid for others. Balancing that aspect of Hidden is always going to be tricky, however it's commonly agreed Hidden is easier at high AR values and much harder at lower. This proposal aims mostly at reducing the Hidden bonus at very high AR values(9.5+), whilst consequently buffing low AR values.

Current hidden bonus is 5% at AR10 and above, increasing an additional 7.5% for each AR below 10
Proposed bonus is 2.5% at AR10, increasing an additional 9% for each AR below 10, and reducing to 1% at AR11

This graph shows how the proposed bonus compares. It's virtually the same bonus at ~AR8.2, increased below it and decreased above it.

Approach Rate bonus scaling above AR10
Approach Rate bonus scaling currently gives a linear bonus from AR 9 to 11. This proposal gives an additional bonus to AR values above 10, scaling from a 1.1 modifier at AR10 to a 1.25 modifier at AR11, up from 1.2 because being Sonic is not easy. Going above AR10 gets increasingly difficult with each increment and this change helps reflect that.

Relevant graph. This change is interesting when looked at with the hidden adjustments. Overall PP values for scores with hidden remain similar but plays without see a fair boost bringing the two much closer together.


Thoughts, questions, and feedback are all very welcome

HD bonus must be increased basically. ( example, not exact %. it's approximate % https://puu.sh/AnJFc/4c90ea2f11.png )
my thought on AR bonus is same with socerer

+ increase FL bonus
it's too low for now

+ increase non-hyper patterns bonus ( especially hard-edge jumps after hyper dash )
after hyper dash, move next fruit to opposite side a little during pp calculating (not in real)

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

I will probably add a few more comments later, need to go for now

posting stuff to fix that's been posted in thread a lot of times already doesn't really give anything helpful to the system, since we already know what the problems are, it's fixing them that's the issue

sorcerer's suggestions are good specifically because they are actual changes, and not just stating problems

that being said i do agree with changes proposed by sorcerer

i think the way length is calculated needs a small revision, you don't actually move for every object in ctb. It makes streamy maps overrated.
FL gets a little broken because of this since it's jumpy maps that are the hard ones and streamy ones easier.

These 2 patterns should have the same length bonus

In my opinion, I think HDFL needs have to have bonus multiplier (and maybe pp?). It really isn't easy to master the 2 mods

Agree with Asriel on the Acc penalty part (which is opposite to Sorcerer's proposal) that it should be decreased. Because droplets are generated by random functions that slightly deviate the actual position of droplet from the slider position. They're not completely following the music anyways. So adding penalty for such a random algorithm doesn't seem to make sense for me.

And I'm a low acc player xD

PakaChan wrote:

These 2 patterns should have the same length bonus

by should i mean shouldn't (why can't i edit my post?)

Buff EZ, adularescence is 860pp DT and only 643pp EZDT, that is big for only an AR difference,
while it's true that CS makes some paterns easier, in overhall it's way more of a nerf due to hyper dashs not being spawned.
EZ not giving the right pp is more important than what you can think. What makes EZ hard (and low pp) is the same as what gives a lot of convert maps difficulty (and still low pp). So changing how the star diff is handled w/ EZ would benefit convert plays.


HD buff for low ar is a good idea but it's useless, there is no low AR map that would give enough pp to make a significant increase.

AR9 (AR9.5 for the extreme) HD is like nomod, what does it change ? The AR is already fast enough not to notice anything, and AR10 HD is a joke, more of a help than anything else.

Change flashlight pp to represent difficulty please, on AR lower than 6, flashlight shouldn't give anything noticable, especially on short map, and FL buff should increase as the AR increase (the faster the fruits scrolls, the more memory is needed), and increase as the star rating increase (because star rating should give an approximation of how "jumpy" the map is, even if it's not that good).

Asriel wrote:

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I'm totally against this.
Accuracy is something that should be important in this game, and it should be reflected in the pp.
If you're just a ppfarmer spamming fast DT overdose in hope you'll FC it, yeah good job get pp.
Lets just take this map for exemple, Endless Hatred.
How much person have SS'd it ? 3.
How much person have FC'd it ? 38.

So, maybe there is something hard in this map other than FC ? Maybe avoiding droplet missing isn't that easy ?

But, maybe you could increase accuracy importance when the score is an FC, or just account the number of droplet miss (and not miss, that already nerf you) when you calculate the accuracy importance of the score.


will edit the post if I think of something else

Droplets are important imo bye

Would be great if you could change the droplets being placed in the editor. Sometimes it doesn't fit the music. Even though you try to change the slider to make the slider fit the music it just doesnt come out the way you think. For high bpm maps it's easier to make the droplet shapes you want but for low bpm maps its a pain.

Hey. Yesterday i just explored the osu!catch code and I found out that it was really hard to edit anything when you can't understand the half of the values that are used in each functions lol
I think that the only way to change the code is to take a good dev and tell him to explore the whole osu! code to understand everything, or someone from the staff who knows well how the performance works. It's out of reach for me.

So I just did a short simple program to test an idea I had, by just editing the final pp value with a logarithm.
The aim of this is to reduce the insane amount of difference between really over-valued beatmaps (such as Uta or Envision) and beatmaps that worth less PP.

Why? Because I don't want to be forced to play the same 5 maps over and over again to rank up. With this idea, those beatmaps will be less "obligatory" and people will have to do more scores to get the same amount of PP.

How? I just took the final PP value as a PP base and edited it with this short program:
So, higher are the PP, higher the PP reduction will be (it's proportional to the base PP amount).

Obviously, someone could make the same thing more efficiently but it was just to illustrate the idea ^^

Here is the google sheet of my tests: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'll come back with some other ideas if I can find anything else ^^

Personally, I think a star rating calculation change than a pp calculation change would be better considering how much it's tied to pp - especially for maps that use a minimal amount of hyperdashing (or none at all), but use jumps that come just short like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1486886&m=2 which ends up having a star rating that makes you massively underestimate its actual difficulty.

Basically use this idea here, but apply it to star ratings instead. You could fix two systems at once.

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

It'd be better if more technical maps that rely more on challenging patterns had a more accurate star rating to match, and in turn give an appropriate amount of pp.

Sinnoh wrote:

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

Ttobas wrote:

Buff EZ, adularescence is 860pp DT and only 643pp EZDT, that is big for only an AR difference,
while it's true that CS makes some paterns easier, in overhall it's way more of a nerf due to hyper dashs not being spawned.

EZ not giving the right pp is more important than what you can think. What makes EZ hard (and low pp) is the same as what gives a lot of convert maps difficulty (and still low pp). So changing how the star diff is handled w/ EZ would benefit convert plays.

EZ is going to remain tragically under rated until we can start making SR changes. A slight buff to the low AR Bonus isn't unreasonable and I'll update the spreadsheets to include one. The effect will be minimal though and we do need to consider not over rewarding lower diffs such as Cups or equivalent where the AR has less of an impact on difficulty.

Ttobas wrote:

HD buff for low ar is a good idea but it's useless, there is no low AR map that would give enough pp to make a significant increase.

Absolutely, the buff to low AR HD is mostly a side effect of nerfing high AR HD. Which is absolutely fine, a buff to low AR HD isn't unwarranted but its impact will be very minimal

Ttobas wrote:

Change flashlight pp to represent difficulty please, on AR lower than 6, flashlight shouldn't give anything noticable, especially on short map, and FL buff should increase as the AR increase (the faster the fruits scrolls, the more memory is needed), and increase as the star rating increase (because star rating should give an approximation of how "jumpy" the map is, even if it's not that good).

I took some time to play about with the FL buff but I can't reach numbers I'm happy with. Ideally the bonus would be a curve reducing at higher AR where memorisation is the primary factor but I cannot get the numbers to bend to my will. Scaling the bonus further to account for short maps (sub 200 combo) should be simple enough. If anyone can help out here that would be really appreciated

Worth pointing out that the current FL bonus doesn't account for AR at all and still applies the base AR bonus, meaning the FL bonus actually increases slightly as AR gets lower when comparing AR values under 8

Ttobas wrote:

But, maybe you could increase accuracy importance when the score is an FC, or just account the number of droplet miss (and not miss, that already nerf you) when you calculate the accuracy importance of the score.

There's no need to really, the penalty for misses and not achieving max combo will decimate pp values on a non-fc play, the acc penalty at that point is tiny in comparison

PakaChan wrote:

i think the way length is calculated needs a small revision, you don't actually move for every object in ctb. It makes streamy maps overrated.
FL gets a little broken because of this since it's jumpy maps that are the hard ones and streamy ones easier.

These 2 patterns shouldn't* have the same length bonus

SPOILER

Absolutely, I did initially look at adjusting the length bonus but was unsure if it was the right thing to do but I hadn't really thought about the point you raised.

In other gamemodes where every object, no matter how hard or easy it is, requires an input then scaling the length bonus with max combo works fairly well. But this doesn't apply to CtB where there's no guarantee that a note requires any sort of movement.

The ideal solution would be to calculate the length bonus in the actual difficulty calculator and only include objects that require movements, but any changes to the difficulty calculator look incredibly unlikely until it's ported to lazer.

Using total drain time instead has similar drawbacks to max combo but is probably more exploitable. It's easy to pad a map with long sliders in slow sections or long spinners.

For lack of a better solution I'll propose a nerf to the length bonus instead. It's quite strong right now and doesn't exactly achieve what it's intending to

F D Flourite wrote:

Agree with Asriel on the Acc penalty part (which is opposite to Sorcerer's proposal) that it should be decreased. Because droplets are generated by random functions that slightly deviate the actual position of droplet from the slider position. They're not completely following the music anyways. So adding penalty for such a random algorithm doesn't seem to make sense for me.

Despite the variation of droplets from the slider path (which makes me very sad), they're still the same for everyone and still require skill to catch. They require more precise and accurate movements across sliders and better control of the catcher's momentum when you hyper into them. I absolutely believe catching droplets takes an amount of skill and that skill should be rewarded

bastoo0 wrote:

So I just did a short simple program to test an idea I had, by just editing the final pp value with a logarithm.
The aim of this is to reduce the insane amount of difference between really over-valued beatmaps (such as Uta or Envision) and beatmaps that worth less PP.

This is quite interesting, atleast as a band-aid proposal to lessen the effects of the very inaccurate difficulty calculator we currently have. This does however go against the nature of SR a bit, where a higher SR map awards more pp under the assumption it's harder to fc. But currently the vast majority of high SR maps, about 8+, get their SR from hilariously over rated patterns which are usually high BPM streams, most others are using 2B elements which straight up breaks SR. This is definitely worth exploring some more

ChickenChanS wrote:

Personally, I think a star rating calculation change than a pp calculation change would be better considering how much it's tied to pp - especially for maps that use a minimal amount of hyperdashing (or none at all), but use jumps that come just short like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1486886&m=2 which ends up having a star rating that makes you massively underestimate its actual difficulty.

Star rating calculation changes aren't too feasible right now and are more complicated than pp calculation changes so for now I'm working with what I can. Saying that, current SR calculation does infact rate edge dashes quite strong, it's just it only does so for extreme edge dashes. Try it out in the editor using dashes right on the border of being a hyperdash, there'll be a noticeable increase in SR. It looks like the difficulty calculator is too strict with what it considers an edge dash but there could well be a reason for doing so

Sorry for reviving this thread,

Users' Convert records have been considerably reduced since ppv2 I think,
as harder(or more pp-giving) ctb maps has come out, people lost motivation to play convert songs
what do you think if current pp ranking is divided into two (one for osu! catch specific pp ranking, one for osu! convert pp ranking) ?

I'm okay with this decision but we need to fix the star rating first because it's broken as hell.

either we get separate pp or convert mapping pp gets a bit buffed (not only hyper spams but leftrights-fast sliders)

+1

it's not done in any other mode, and it shouldn't be done for catch the beat. whether it's a specific or a convert, you're still playing catch the beat, so there's no point in splitting it into two different leaderboards. it would be like splitting mania into 4k only and 7k only leaderboards. yeah, 7k gives more pp than 4k, but you're playing mania either way.

Ascendance wrote:

it's not done in any other mode, and it shouldn't be done for catch the beat. whether it's a specific or a convert, you're still playing catch the beat, so there's no point in splitting it into two different leaderboards. it would be like splitting mania into 4k only and 7k only leaderboards. yeah, 7k gives more pp than 4k, but you're playing mania either way.

I mean, you're not wrong. But I am not opposed to 1, fixing or readjusting the star rating, 2, buffing the pp received from said converts, because too many are underweighted or even under their true star rating.
Just my 10c, I know nothing of what I'm talking about!

I can agree to SR fix or buffing convert pp (especially the former, the latter is kinda meh whatever to me since converts aren't really meant for catch in the first place), but yeah I can't support a separate leaderboard.

revert back to score ranking lul

Saw some rumblings around about the need for a catch PP rework again so figured I’d share some thoughts on what I’ve been messing around with the past few months using a version of lazer that produces “mostly” accurate SR values.


It’s just gone past the four year mark for when catch star rating and performance points were overhauled in late 2014. Whilst the SR changes were at the time a huge improvement over the previous version, it has become painfully clear that catch SR still has big issues with representing the difficulty of a beatmap.

So in an attempt to inspire some hope in a community that has mostly given up on ever seeing a much needed “PP rework” I wanted to talk about some actual possible changes to the SR calculation. Keep in mind I’m no programmer or mathematician, I don’t have a solid understanding of how half this system works but I’m still confident I have found areas that can be improved.

I haven’t included any values here due to the limited setup I’ve been using, this is more for an idea of a starting point and what changes are worth pursuing.

Edge Dash Bonus
Currently maps with numerous edge dashes (regular dashes that are very close to the hyperdash trigger distance) are very underrated. There’s an existing bonus for edge dashes but it’s simply not big enough, increasing this is an easy fix but tuning the exact amount will require some trial and error.

Hyperdash Bonus
There’s currently a small bonus for both hypderdashes and edge dashes on a direction change. This bonus doesn’t do much for edge dashes but the bonus really adds up in higher difficulty specifics where hypderashes are frequent. Whilst hypderdashes are challenging for new players, a bonus like this gets too large on Overdose level difficulties where the hyperdash itself is not difficult but rather how it’s used.

Splitting this bonus into separate bonuses for edge dashes and hyperdashes allows for better tuning of both. Greatly reducing the hyperdash bonus really helps to bring down the inflated SR values for specifics vs converts/hyperdashless maps.

(Hypderdash bonus only applies on direction changes so hypderdash chains don’t get even sillier than they already are)

Speed Scaling
This is a simple issue, catch SR scales too much with speed. High BPM is overrated and part of why maps like Image Material have such high star ratings. Reducing the base speed scaling but keeping the speed scaling on direction changes similar is probably the best approach to balancing this.

Some maps are fairly dependant on speed and reducing the scaling can result in them being relatively underrated so tuning this will take some real trial and error. Though after four years of speed being so dominant I don’t think too many people would mind such a meta shake up.

A big limitation of the setup I used is the inability to test mods. I simply don’t know how changing speed scaling would affect doubletime and halftime but I’d assume reducing speed scaling would nerf doubletime. As far as I understand the difficulty calculator doesn’t currently consider the change in catcher speed, just the change in speed of the map. Adding a catcher speed scaling factor is probably the way to go about balancing DT and HT.

Direction Change Bonus
This would be the biggest change as it’s not just value tweaking but adjusting the logic. Currently there’s a bonus when there’s a direction change, which makes sense but due to the simple logic it leads to flowing patterns getting a much larger bonus than antiflow patterns. Compare these two patterns and where the direction changes are.

The “flow” pattern on the left is easier because the direction change is made on the note after the hyperdash finishes so the speed boost from the hyperdash is gone.

The “antiflow” pattern is noticeably harder, it requires more precise movements to make the direction change whilst hyperdashing because of the speed boost.

Despite this, the bonus is being applied to the movement after the direction change (represented with a black line) and doesn’t consider the movement before it. This leads to the flow pattern getting an enormous boost whilst the antiflow pattern sees very little. By scaling the direction change bonus with the distance and speed of the movement before it we now have a method to consider flow and antiflow patterns.

This seems very promising in the limited testing I’ve been able to do. The infamous flow stream pattern seen above is no longer the ticket to big SR values like it is now and antiflow patterns are actually rewarded.

Balancing this scaling is not easy. I saw good results from having a base direction change bonus that functions like the current but much smaller and then a much larger bonus that scales based on the movement before the direction change (antiflow). This ensures flowing direction changes still contribute to SR which is important for lower difficulties.

Widely Spaced Stacks
This is the best term I could come up with to describe a pattern like this as seen in Sing’s Master on Getty vs. DJ DiA – DropZ-Line-

Check it out in editor at 01:15:002 (1) -. Deleting this one slider reduces the star rating from 9.40 to 5.60

Stacks like these can be caught without requiring any movement from the player yet despite this they massively inflate the overall SR. The tricky bit is the initial positioning of the catcher, after that there’s no input required yet the longer and denser the stack, the greater the SR.

This is an issue currently on live, though only on a handful of ranked beatmaps, but it can become even worse when tweaking values like the edge dash bonus. It’s a bug and it needs a fix.

My proposed solution works like this:

- Check for direction change
- Check if distance of movement is <= catcher size
- Check if distance of current movement is equal to distance of previous movement
- Scale SR addition by time, 1.00x at 100ms down to 0.00x at 50ms

This could be considered a hacky solution but I was surprised by how well it appears to work. The checks try best to isolate the conditions of these stacks. They’re usually created by sliders, hence the requirement for identical distances, and it scales with speed because that’s when this bug really gets silly. The impact on innocent beatmaps seems very minimal if there’s any at all though I’ve not been able to check all too thoroughly.


Hopefully this can help provide a starting point for changes and show that the situation isn’t as hopeless as you might think. These changes won’t fix everything, but they should shake up the meta for the better and bring better balance to converts vs specifics.

Sadly, until catch star rating on lazer matches stable there’s not much work that can be done as all the tools provided for PP development are dependant on lazer. But once that’s fixed I hope there’s enough interest to get a group together with the know-how to actually start making some improvements.

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

Nelly wrote:

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

You are right, I tried to access the osu!dev Discord server but my application was refused.

There are some good points but you also forgot about some more. Especially with Spinners (pp should be also add like in ppv1 what rank you get in a map that would also makes spinning again famous because spinner is currently so underrated .And also some different mods especially easy and flashlight. What I personally understand about your points is just an improvement of the current system what is ok but it wont change that much . In my opinion the whole pp system needs a big rework of the current system because there wasnt any change since years and I can give you 2 examples why no changes kills a game (starcraft 2 and Pubg pc version because there was not really big changes.) in the past especially 2013-2014 there were a lot of changes and it really gave that game I would say the golden time cuz of these often changes .

DakkyChan wrote:

There are some good points but you also forgot about some more. Especially with Spinners (pp should be also add like in ppv1 what rank you get in a map that would also makes spinning again famous because spinner is currently so underrated .And also some different mods especially easy and flashlight. What I personally understand about your points is just an improvement of the current system what is ok but it wont change that much . In my opinion the whole pp system needs a big rework of the current system because there wasnt any change since years and I can give you 2 examples why no changes kills a game (starcraft 2 and Pubg pc version because there was not really big changes.) in the past especially 2013-2014 there were a lot of changes and it really gave that game I would say the golden time cuz of these often changes .

Spinning definitely should give pp indeed, it's really sad that there are just a handful of people aiming to get a good spin and actually retry the map to improve their spin.

Nelly wrote:

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

There's nothing proposed yet, still have to wait for updates to lazer until any real work can begin. I just posted here to give people an idea of what changes we can expect once catch SR on lazer matches stable.

it's funny cuz starcraft 2 died because of large changes made that drove the majority away. the vocal minority are people who want a rework of the pp system. small improvements like sorcerer is proposing will do enough. we won't go back to ppv1 and the likelihood of a complete rework is slim to none, and for good reason.

Sorcerer wrote:

Nelly wrote:

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

There's nothing proposed yet, still have to wait for updates to lazer until any real work can begin. I just posted here to give people an idea of what changes we can expect once catch SR on lazer matches stable.

Isn't any modification possible on the current osu! release? I'd try to do something if I figure out how to compile the osu! code and how the system works.

Ascendance wrote:

it's funny cuz starcraft 2 died because of large changes made that drove the majority away. the vocal minority are people who want a rework of the pp system. small improvements like sorcerer is proposing will do enough. we won't go back to ppv1 and the likelihood of a complete rework is slim to none, and for good reason.

What are you saying?
This game won't die just because of a pp change... Maybe some people will leave but considering how many people are leaving because of the current pp system, I don't think it's a big deal.

Ascendance wrote:

it's funny cuz starcraft 2 died because of large changes made that drove the majority away. the vocal minority are people who want a rework of the pp system. small improvements like sorcerer is proposing will do enough. we won't go back to ppv1 and the likelihood of a complete rework is slim to none, and for good reason.

Nah I dont agree with this at all in the past we had multiply changes. First one (hyperdash changes) (old one to new one) then we had the first pp system where you had to be rank 1 on certain maps to get a lot of pp and then one year later we had the changes idk if you have be already there at that time when we had the jumpping meta (edge jump meta) so and some later it got changed again I think in the end of 2014 . And because of this always it had ALWAYS to most Players a positive influence to the game itself and it made new people and people that are already there enjoying it a lot. most mappers from the community have created new specialized patterns for the pp ranking to push the limits of it and that brang so much hype to see the new to pp plays .But because of non changes new maps become more boring to play (like in my perspective I see a new ctb map nah its always the same pattern I dont download it and thats not only the case for me I think . So the hype got lost since there is nothing new and there are NO changes at all so casual players arent playing for long and quit quiet quickly . Also old players gets eventually bored about this and quits pp farming and secondly then the whole game . (ofc not all ) but a lot people have quitted due this all . So and thats why I even try to find a new system it doesnt matter really how it is but it has to be a big change to change the whole meta since then mapping becomes more much more favourite again especially when big mappers like you doing a new map because they see maybe new pattern styles and that would eventually ends then again into a big hype and the whole game will be reborn from what it is now because now it is 100% not very alive .

@bastoo0: https://github.com/ppy/osu-performance

My Vision of a future System would be or Idea is making rankings in the top 50 more popular but also have it like the same system like it is right now so it would also make spinners more favourite and some other things too . And also the advantage of ppv1 and why we need some kind of that is because when in the past a new ctb spefic came out what wasnt so hard maybe but if it gives pp because the rank 1 is important a lot of people will play this map and it also makes specifics popular again like I mentioned

without pp what is osu its in the name of who created it XD why would u even consider removing it how u meant to show wht u earned overall

I appreciate reviving an old discussion, but I don't think this was at all constructive, or even in reference to the replies above... These kinda discussions are housed on the osu!dev discord more often than not, so I would encourage people to go there

I have a sugestion for a PP Tweak where the TLDR is; Each miss reduces the pp gained by x amount of the base FC value as opposed to completely negating a score.
The full read is https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ekc7fazmb22dqm/CTB%20PP%20Tweak%20Suggestion.rtf?dl=0 (Should be able to read online)

what about having pp based on skill and not maps it might make it fairer overall anyone can play a pp map anytime just a thought

Shadow Legend wrote:

what about having pp based on skill and not maps it might make it fairer overall anyone can play a pp map anytime just a thought

not a bad idea but not even the slightest original its been tried and will be tried more for years to come wont happen pp system is a system for mainly new players to feel a sense of progression and while top players do feel the confidence boost and validation from setting a very high score it does tend to lose its magic as a motivator and you are left with a faulty leaderboard there have been users for years trying to fix it but at the end of the day games especially like this are much too complex that even if you got the calculations somehow 80% right 20% could be completely nonsensical and anecdotal and even if many people good and new agree with changes there will always be those who have skill sets that arent properly weighted by a system its a diverse game with lots of ways to go about it and certain things that take a lot of skill to be implimented into a successful system would be a life long endevour i disagree with the update to pp but in no way will i say any of the previous were better im not huge on pp have been known to be against the system for that very reason but i see why it exsists and unfortunatley regardless if it even said the worst players were the best and vice versa someone somewhere will play the game because of pp wether or not being for reasons i can agree with personally also its a nightmarish thought actually having a pp system thats feasable at this time being implimented with the phrase "this properly measures skill" can u imagine if it was even slightly off if enough people thought it to be true it would discourage those doing things that arent factored in properly

tl dr: lol it sucks always will ignore or participate it not goin anywhere

119410501 wrote:

Remove PP rankings.

.

Remove combo scoring. Scores would be much more reflective of skill instead of whether or not you missed in the middle of a song.

i think we have to increase stars with convert maps...
nobody play convert maps..

Perfect Day wrote:

i think we have to increase stars with convert maps...
nobody play convert maps..

Couldn't this be also justified with Flashlight?

Not in the sense of stars but in the sense of pp

Flashlight could do with quite a bit of love, FL bonus is currently just a multiplier of the length bonus. Could do with some AR scaling and length scaling independent of the length bonus. Not too hard to do but I tried myself a while back and had no idea what any appropriate values would be