No real need for HT then, of course other than "mlg" plays. :^^
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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MBomb
You essentially just said "Don't tell me two of the most overrated no mod maps are overrated no mod".Cblt wrote:
CLSW's Halozy - Genryuu Kaiko, Spectator's Hatsuki Yura - Yoiyami Hanabi and don't tell me they are overrated in NO-MOD. (well, I can't really tell if Hidden and HR is correct as well) ;w;PakaChan wrote:
Can you give an example of one such "HT gains" map that isn't an overrated pp map nomod in the first place?
There are many examples where HT is just... wrong and it's STILL easier.
Empress Junko
MBomb
I agree that it should be nerfed, but in the way you're saying, is kinda over the top. It's like saying "HD shouldn't give pp because it makes the game easier for some people".Cblt wrote:
What exactly does that change when HT is still easier? Should be nerfed. :p
Maps aren't the biggest problem here.
Empress Junko
welp, since here is almost nothing going on im just gonna compile the most mentioned opinions on what is over/under-rated and why that could be.
so i would like to know your opinions on exactly which maps are over/under-rated (only including Top50 records, because Osu!Stats)
Banned Forever is pretty much known for it's Rocket Jump which is really hard to get when playing Nomod since it requieres quite accurate movement
and fast repeating movements from left to right.....but when EZ is applied the CS changes and the suddle distance that made that pattern so hard to play is just gone, and you just have to stand around to get it done.
Regarding Owens i don't really know if the value is maybe acepptable, but im also guessing that its something about it's streams that is getting misscalculated while using EZ+DT, because i can't really comprehend why EZ+DT should give more pp then a HR+HD FC on it...its just absurd..
Pakachan : High CS is underrated | Stars seem way off when it comes to DT/NC | symetric angled hyperdashpatterns are overrated.
(examples from TUA4R and End Time) | The Top Perfomance Map Values are too high and create a too big pp-gap between simular skill levels
since im not the guy to make any validations on High Level Play i collected the Top40-PP Plays of the #15 to #1 Players,(examples from TUA4R and End Time) | The Top Perfomance Map Values are too high and create a too big pp-gap between simular skill levels
so i would like to know your opinions on exactly which maps are over/under-rated (only including Top50 records, because Osu!Stats)
Zak: I wouldn't agree with updating the system unless it can still weigh the actual hard maps high enough without the really easy shit like Go Berzerk getting an explosion of pp.
EZ+DT & HT Abusement *kappa* *kappa* *kappa*Eldnl: a jump without an hyperdash when it's close to it can be way harder than an hyperdash jump, hard jumps without hyperdash are not giving enough pp.
i can really agree on that, most of the examples that Eldnl posted are well known hard maps with few hyperdashes that got a way lower rating then they deservedKingkevin30: the FL-Buff seems a bit too high on examples like the Osu!Stream compilation | Half-Time is still valued a bit too high in comparison to how easy it makes some clustered fast patterns | some Platewalk Maps get a way too high boost | EZ+DT increases the Platewalk issue even more & is generally valued too high
EZ+DT abusement
Banned Forever is pretty much known for it's Rocket Jump which is really hard to get when playing Nomod since it requieres quite accurate movement
and fast repeating movements from left to right.....but when EZ is applied the CS changes and the suddle distance that made that pattern so hard to play is just gone, and you just have to stand around to get it done.
Regarding Owens i don't really know if the value is maybe acepptable, but im also guessing that its something about it's streams that is getting misscalculated while using EZ+DT, because i can't really comprehend why EZ+DT should give more pp then a HR+HD FC on it...its just absurd..
pp algo should consider if we need to move for catching fruits like in banned forever. I did a shit 54 stars' map that you can fc without pressing any key for moving. The only thing that can be hard in this type of patern it's the catcher placement (when you don't need to move like in banned forever with EZ + DT).
I have this issue with the star rating, both songs are rated 3.50 stars but their difficulty is way different, not entirely sure what causes this. (Its not the AR of Soushou Innocence, i considered that but even when i edit the AR down to AR9 the result is only marginally better.)
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/413171
This is the result of 3 no fail plays after failing it without no fail like 20 times.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/509915
This is the result of mere 3 plays... (of which the first two were utter shit because lolwarmingup)
Looking at how i do at the other songs around that range id say menu ne is overrated while soushou is underrated.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/413171
This is the result of 3 no fail plays after failing it without no fail like 20 times.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/509915
This is the result of mere 3 plays... (of which the first two were utter shit because lolwarmingup)
Looking at how i do at the other songs around that range id say menu ne is overrated while soushou is underrated.
DT should really really be nerfed
I know that some map is harder with DT than HR, but for a 2-3 star map HR is harder than DT and should give more pp
map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/630519?m=2
edit: since I'm not really good with HR, I might be wrong ;w;
I know that some map is harder with DT than HR, but for a 2-3 star map HR is harder than DT and should give more pp
map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/630519?m=2
edit: since I'm not really good with HR, I might be wrong ;w;
lolTime- wrote:
DT should really really be nerfed
I know that some map is harder with DT than HR, but for a 2-3 star map HR is harder than DT and should give more pp
map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/630519?m=2
edit: since I'm not really good with HR, I might be wrong ;w;
It's good to see that Tom is aware of the situation, and i also would've thought that fixing those issues will totally mess up the other calculations
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Do i need to say another word?
EZ have to be nerfed!!!
wow, thats really interesting, but how did you get the data of apperances?PakaChan wrote:
Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested
Wrote some code,requested ~1500 pages from the site, put them in a database. (i hope i don't get in trouble for that)Kingkevin30 wrote:
wow, thats really interesting, but how did you get the data of apperances?
Because 10 billion hyperdashes in a 3 minute song aren't enough. Okay.
sad weeb_old
someone missed the the december updatesad weeb wrote:
If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.
sad weeb_old
as if you're implying HT still doesnt give a stupid amount of pp for scoresPakaChan wrote:
someone missed the the december updatesad weeb wrote:
If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.
Well this part is very inaccurate, but yes HT does still need another nerf, as does EZ mod, Tom will do it eventually, just be patient.sad weeb wrote:
HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without
misogi_old_1
wow one year later and look at where we still are-Kurisu- wrote:
It isn't accurate at all IMO to put so much weight on ctb specific maps, especially since there are so few. There are plenty of standard maps that translate into fun and difficult ctb maps. Also the best performance shouldn't be filled with easy SS's...
However they balance things people are always going to be upset about it ;3
In my opinion, there is something missing in the algorithm, something that could detect shitpatterns which do not contain any hyperdash, complex moves that requires alot of skill and accuracy.
for example
I hope some players will understand my point of view about this.https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=137840&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45918&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/123708&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66514&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=344619&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=374400&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289256&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37658&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=255705&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=298880&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=153484&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45918&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/123708&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66514&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=344619&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=374400&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289256&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37658&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=255705&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=298880&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=153484&m=2
I love you.Rockageek wrote:
In my opinion, there is something missing in the algorithm, something that could detect shitpatterns which do not contain any hyperdash, complex moves that requires alot of skill and accuracy.for exampleI hope some players will understand my point of view about this.https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=137840&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45918&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/123708&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66514&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=344619&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=374400&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289256&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37658&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=255705&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=298880&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=153484&m=2
Seph
PP doesn't depend on map popularity anymore.Gunsillie wrote:
So, my question has probably already been answered, but here I go:
If I'm not mistaken, it was stated in the wiki that PP are calculated taking into account the popularity of the map. However, in CtB the player pool is way less big, so the algorithm that evaluates the popularity of the map needs to give way higher bonuses comparatively to std for the same number of plays.
Is it only a std thing, does it even still exist?
MBomb
Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...
big mistake that needs a big change D:Ibuki Mioda wrote:
Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...
This shouldn't happen. In theory.Ibuki Mioda wrote:
Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...
It won't be an issue when you get to keep your higher pp score when you get a higher score by using HR
Umm that is what I'm talking about... It removed all points earned and pp received to 1% of base due to playing HR instead of my lower score on DT which scored 100% of possible pp earned. Here is a picture of what I mean... only hopes now is to play it dt/hr which is pretty hard with cs 6.5Zak wrote:
It won't be an issue when you get to keep your higher pp score when you get a higher score by using HR
http://puu.sh/i7lu5/d9c3060d5f.jpg
Yes but eventually you will get to have 2 separate scores per map, one for highest pp and another for your best score.
Oh ok, so like 2 seperate ranking systems. Makes more sence since some maps are more difficult with mods that award less points for score.Zak wrote:
Yes but eventually you will get to have 2 separate scores per map, one for highest pp and another for your best score.
Why not get rid of score ranking ?
Kind of the purpose anyone plays. Without goals or motivation people would no longer come back to play. Not sure if Peppy would be happen with a large loss of players.Drafura wrote:
Why not get rid of score ranking ?