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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
reason why DT is bit overrated is well described in barusamiko's post.

Due to DT diffs are also re-calculated by some formula, 5star nomod is farely equal to DT 5star (difficluty of pattern-wise.)

however they generally have high ODs, which is heavily rewarding.

Nature of osu! is a RHYTHM game. +- 20ms from perfect timing even on OD10 doesn't look too hard compared to other rhythm games. Now keep in mind that OD10 is the very highest OD in this game, and it doesnt even exist(yes there are, but i'd say ignorable amount.)

let's be honest, if someone is capable of playing a difficulty pretty well in osu!, they won't have problem 99%+ing map since most of osu! maps have 7~8OD(+-32~38ms).


Now yes OD 8 is definitely harder than OD7, but if you are well skilled enough, honestly OD8 or below pretty much feels the same. OD9 is slightly more challenging, but not even that with appropriate AR(9.5+). maybe OD10? yes probably, but maybe not a huge deal looking at those high scores with DT or HR.

I do think OD is bit overratted at the moment, especially OD 8~9s because they don't feel too different from lower ARs but they get rewarded hecktons with high accuracy. I still think ODs should be rewarded correctly but any OD lower than 8 honestly doesnt mean too much and there aren't much of OD9 or higher maps, and they are somehow popular as a "good pp rewarding map"(detetori- emotional skyscraper, wind god girl. they have OD9 and isn't too hard but rewarded heckton.) I don't think this is right. getting played more and gets more attention just because they have high OD? god, I wanna go change all my maps to OD9 so they can be pp-awarding and maybe they will get more attention.


What I'm trying to say is that OD should be correctly rewarded but situation where people only look for OD8 or higher doesn't look right. I think they should be adjustable, or maybe make a mod that increases OD to 10 no matter what their original OD is(So that maps with similar difficulty, with low OD, doesn't get kicked out indirectly from someone who wants some PP). HR is different story because OD7 maps doesnt even reach OD10 with it, and for some maps HR makes it way too hard to play.

I was kind of guy who plays map that I like, but when it comes to pp farming i have to type OD>7.5 on my search bar just because it's so much easier to farm pp with OD8, OD9 maps. Now if OD becomes adjustable or OD10, or maybe even OD11 mod comes out yes I think I'll start playing all the various maps again.




bit different story, but again, about AR, unlike when AR10s where regarded as super hards they became more like "preferance" these days. Some of my friends say my map sucks because it has AR8 or AR7(which was major trend back in time). I also wanna change the frikkin AR to 9 but meh not possible. old maps are getting some complains just because of AR(which doesn't really mean anything) and also doesn't make sense.

now talking about AR10.3 or 11, yes they are really hard but some people are already getting used to AR10.3 and maybe AR11 eventually. I mean, just make it adjustable and reward same pp. why not? most of ~2012 maps are getting discriminated just because of low OD or low AR. Some gets advantage just because of that OD9. Does it even make sense? You are playing the same map.
Barusamikosu_old_1
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu_old_1

haha5957 wrote:

bit different story, but again, about AR, unlike when AR10s where regarded as super hards they became more like "preferance" these days. Some of my friends say my map sucks because it has AR8 or AR7(which was major trend back in time). I also wanna change the frikkin AR to 9 but meh not possible. old maps are getting some complains just because of AR(which doesn't really mean anything) and also doesn't make sense.

now talking about AR10.3 or 11, yes they are really hard but some people are already getting used to AR10.3 and maybe AR11 eventually. I mean, just make it adjustable and reward same pp. why not? most of ~2012 maps are getting discriminated just because of low OD or low AR. Some gets advantage just because of that OD9. Does it even make sense? You are playing the same map.
There are a lot of potential issues with freely adjustable AR. The biggest one would be the effect on the leaderboards. As a player who enjoys older maps (including yours), I think a lot of the people who put in the time to become good at old maps would feel kind of cheated because people would suddenly be able to come in and play the same map with way less note density due to the higher AR and potentially make the top50.
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo

silmarilen wrote:

Mahoganytooth wrote:

Reward what fewer people can play and penalize what more people can play
this is what ppv1 tried to do. and it proved to be a horrible approach.
However that's not the reason why ppv1 was bad. It just had a lot of arbitrary parameters all over the place. A decent map ranking based pp system is definitely possible and shouldn't be rejected because of one failed attempt.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

haha5957 wrote:

reason why DT is bit overrated is well described in barusamiko's post.

Due to DT diffs are also re-calculated by some formula, 5star nomod is farely equal to DT 5star (difficluty of pattern-wise.)

Now yes OD 8 is definitely harder than OD7, but if you are well skilled enough, honestly OD8 or below pretty much feels the same. OD9 is slightly more challenging, but not even that with appropriate AR(9.5+). maybe OD10? yes probably, but maybe not a huge deal looking at those high scores with DT or HR.

I do think OD is bit overratted at the moment, especially OD 8~9s because they don't feel too different from lower ARs but they get rewarded hecktons with high accuracy. I still think ODs should be rewarded correctly but any OD lower than 8 honestly doesnt mean too much and there aren't much of OD9 or higher maps, and they are somehow popular as a "good pp rewarding map"(detetori- emotional skyscraper, wind god girl. they have OD9 and isn't too hard but rewarded heckton.) I don't think this is right. getting played more and gets more attention just because they have high OD? god, I wanna go change all my maps to OD9 so they can be pp-awarding and maybe they will get more attention.

I was kind of guy who plays map that I like, but when it comes to pp farming i have to type OD>7.5 on my search bar just because it's so much easier to farm pp with OD8, OD9 maps. Now if OD becomes adjustable or OD10, or maybe even OD11 mod comes out yes I think I'll start playing all the various maps again.

bit different story, but again, about AR, unlike when AR10s where regarded as super hards they became more like "preferance" these days. Some of my friends say my map sucks because it has AR8 or AR7(which was major trend back in time). I also wanna change the frikkin AR to 9 but meh not possible. old maps are getting some complains just because of AR(which doesn't really mean anything) and also doesn't make sense.
I'm absolutely right with all this that I have quoted, but not with the rest. Adjusting settings as player's choice would ruin what osu was meant from 2007 to now. If you can't read or tap properly sincerelly you have no reasson to be on that ranking. There are standarized DT, HR and HT mods to fix some disbalanced maps and give aditional oportunities to more people to rank these maps even if they can't read or tap the original map. You can combine 2 of these 3 mods to obtain more possible oportunities and if you can't still rank this with these mods or combinations of these then the map is not meant for you.

Now yes, we need atleast OD8 to start seing good pp from accuracy and some maps are worth their pp froma accuracy, but the problem IS that there are many cases of pussy patterns that give no opposition to accuracy from their patterns difficulty and so they're free accuracy maps even with their high respective OD. I've noticed that there are many OD7 old maps which are more Accuracy killers than these newer maps with OD8.5 even with the similar amount of stars ... this ressults that the new map gives more pp and with less effort, more people can high accuracy this than the older map which has a lower pp limit but is harder to high accuracy and people avoids it because "too hard pp" ...

These new style maps tends to be more frequently more friendly to gameplay, to be less aggresive patterns (by both aim and tapping) ressulting that there are lots of players that can only play these new styled maps meanwhile if you set them old school maps likely Mutsuhiko Izumi - Red Goose [Another] you fuck up their skill. Hey I have an S of only 95.50% accuracy at TJ.Hangneil - Kamui [dksslqj Style] that is only worth as a little less than 160's pp and I still find this as one of my most epic moments ever in osu, even more epic than most of my 200's pp ranks :D. Also not any new map is broken of pp's, if you look at Apocalyptica - Ion [Extra] it's a really good map that I'm glad of having it on S at 96.85% accuracy which has a good pp potential from being OD8.6 but being somehow difficult to farm because of considerably hard patterns... not even a fairly "good accuracy" on that map and I'm between the top 200's as shown in this Screenshot.

But hey, I have not that many of these maps in my best performance because there are many more pp efficent and easier maps that I've done with higher accuracy mainly because they were much easier to do, but I still go for these hard and underrated maps because I don't want to be a mere farmer of ppv2.

About Easy it's fine as how it's going, it even needs more difference from low accuracy EZ plays than to higher accuracy EZ plays, but common EZ is a kind of aditional mod and it's not sincerely a useful mod to learn in what general skill means, you will not see it oftenly in a torneun or in OWC, learning this mod doesn't give you general skill just giving you a chance at ranking more maps in a unnusual way.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
and who decides what 'patterns' are objectively hard? it varies massively from player to player. hard to make a system that includes everyone single those patterns out.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079
Overlaps, abrupt spacing changes, polygons, weird sliders with a very high SV...
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
The more uncomfortable the patterns are to grab and to tap, the more hard to accurate is. For aim, usually these circles that forces you being more time at a determinated place of the screen to then move more sharply will cost you most, if the map is constantly fluid then there is no kind of problem with aim level. About tapping the less variety of tapable patterns there are the more easy to repeat it constantly is, meaning that there should be something that evaluates some kind of "strain" for this ... likely quick changes from duplets to tripletse or a stream that ends with 1/2 of null timed note then slider over THE SAME position, this last one makes lots of sliderbreaks and is proportionally difficult to the more circles had the stream before the slider.

This is what I would consider pattern difficulty, even more if you mix bboth complicated aim + complicated tapping instead of just fast tapping and fast aiming :P
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Mhm, I agree on OD being a too big factor for map selection but I also think that the differences in OD are something that develop with time.
Personally I don't really stand a chance to get a SS on any OD8 map but it's fairly possible on OD7 and below. I think it's reasonable that it's worth a lot more than lower OD.
A possibility to upgrade the OD of the map somehow would be cool for pp-farming but it's also kinda lame as lower OD can have a sense for the map and it would also feel even more unfair for people whose OD is limited by suboptimal input devices.
You could say something like "if 2σ of hit notes are in the σ-environment of the 300-area OD is upgraded by 1 for pp-calculation" to reward very accurate players for a result instead of letting them edit the map-specs beforehand and get higher pp even though it wouldn't even have been that good on the original OD. Or you could make it exclusive to SS-scores/find some new name for this scorecategory.
Imo it's important to put strong limits to how players can influence the maps metadata without mods so it can't get abused.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Riince wrote:

and who decides what 'patterns' are objectively hard? it varies massively from player to player. hard to make a system that includes everyone single those patterns out.
Physics and physiology?

Certain angles are harder to make depending on the momentum from the previous patterns than others. Also, there's a big connection between rhythm and aim pressure. As pressure on either increases, so does the "energy distribution" (which is more of attention) between both, and that means that the other half would undeniably increase in pressure as well.

In other words, let's say I have a map with a really long stream, like 2 minutes. And let's assume I'm not that fast a streamer, but the map is only 160bpm, and the stream starts out with stack spacing, and gradually increases to 1.3x spacing. Now, at fist, streaming this would be easy peasy. However, the longer I stream, the more strain is put on my left hand. Even though the streaming is constant 160bpm, it will take more and more effort to continue streaming uninterruptedly. Now my aim hand has more stamina than my stream hand, but since the stream keeps spacing itself out gradually, I'll experience a roughly equal stamina loss in both hands rather than just my streaming hand.

That's one thing, the affecting of rhythm on aim and vice versa. It'd also work if I had lots of fast jumps - my tapping hand gets a lot more tired playing Nyan Nyan Drive (which I alt) than a map that's 30bpm higher and has mostly alt singles. It's something I call mutual strain. I also find it best to approach mapping under the assumption that the player will use two hands as opposed to mouse-only because that's just the majority of the game.

Another difficulty aspect is angle. And angle is always directly tied to momentum, which is always tied to pressure, which is always tied to the strain caused on the player. I've found that with small momentum any angle seems to work except weird stuff like a 270° turn coming from the bottom right at low speed. Basically, in my experience, I've found that other players (and myself) have more ease with what I call "conventional angles" (mainly 90°, 45°, 120° and 180° turns) and "unconventional angles" which, even if they work as a map, are just not seen commonly. Some popular users of these angles would be Amamiya Yuko, or HanzeR. fanzhen seems to combine conventional angles with unconventional ones in a creative way so he'd kind of fall in a league of his own, in this respect.

I don't know precisely which kinds of angles are preferred on average but it wouldn't be hard to figure that out with some sort of poll. And then it wouldn't be hard (I assume) to determine that x angle at y momentum has z difficulty value (for aim). Momentum is simply the combination of spacing + aim + previous angle. "previous angle" would be same direction the followpoints take (clockwise). So, let's say I make a 4.0x jump at a 90° angle at 220bpm, and the next jump is a 2.0x jump at yet another 90° turn - this jump's difficulty would feel more like a 4.0x jump followed by a 1.0x jump, due to the massive speed you've gained from the initial jump. Whereas if the pattern was reversed, the second jump would feel like a 5.0x jump because the initial jump didn't give much power and then you have to add extra force to make up for the sharp angle too.

These are just two takes on difficulty that I haven't seen yet but they seem pretty relevant to me. I mean, the laws of motion are a thing, they don't hold exemptions for circle clickers.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Tess wrote:

quote

The biggest flaw here is that you assume patterns are all PHYSICALLY difficult, they're not. Certain shapes are simply hard to break down and follow. You listed 90°, 45°, 120° and 180° as the easier angles yet 90 and 45 are imo the hardest angles to follow in the game. It's far too subjective to model using "some sort of poll" and it's far more complex than just calculating hand velocities.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I'm talking about physical strain, not physical difficulty. If you model things by difficulty it gets subjective. It should never be about what's the most difficult for people, but about what causes the most objective strain. I also said that those angles are easier relative to other types of angles, and it's always contextual.

The image I'm trying to draw there is that you can calculate contextual strain objectively by paying attention both to the natural physical strain patterns would give, and the average difficulty of certain patterns for the average player. You mentioned "90 and 45 are the hardest angles to follow in the game" but it always depends on the context of the strain of the previous patterns, the bpm, the rhythm complexity, the note density, and the angle you're coming from. I wasn't talking about "which angle is the hardest", I was talking about "which angles do I see more people being able to complete".

If you look at "what's hard" then you fall into the personal context world of subjectivity and if you look at "what strains" then you're still taking the context of the map and physiology into account with little regard for the player's ideas of what's difficult and easy, since that's different for every player anyway. Physical strain is not, and if you model things that way then you're looking at which player can deal with the most strain in all areas (aim, reading, speed, rhythm, accuracy) rather than "who can do stuff that others can do less".
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
im not really sure what you mean by strain, it might just be because my fingers are pretty strong from years of pen spinning, but i've never felt strained from aiming, even if i'm going out of my way on crazy jump maps for an extended time. i nofail spammed eighto for like almost an hour once because im stupid and thought it would help, and if anything my hand felt more flexible afterwards.

even for the average player i think the factor of strain for angle snapping is kind of irrelevant unless were talking intense long marathons that have consistent 6+ star difficulty minimum. which don't exist afaik.

I agree that stamina should be a factor. for tapping. but aiming stamina is something that is a far larger variable than tapping stamina. you've got people with smaller/bigger areas, and people who use touchscreens which pretty much completely eliminate any angle-related difficulties...
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
By strain I mean quite literally the amount of effort (based on an average) it costs to do a certain something. I mean, there's so much available data on maps and scores on those maps, it shouldn't be hard to see what kinds of angles are relatively more intensive to play than others, along with rhythms as well. I'll agree that when it comes to pure aim my stamina between aim and tapping also doesn't compare. But I've noticed that in myself (and other players, I've even seen index mention this) as soon as I start running out of stamina in one hand, I run out of stamina in the other as well.

As for touchscreens, those always seemed to have had an apparent advantage when it comes to aiming. Isn't that why Tom disabled TAG4 pp?

Also, do keep in mind I'm just giving a rough idea of the general direction you could go in when considering how to calculate pp more accurately. I purposefully avoided any specific ideas because, in my experience, people tend to argue or neglect any precise propositions unless they reach them together.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
Strain is caused through having to tense your hand to hit small circles or to accelerate or decelerate your hand quickly. I experience way more strain playing 4.5* old cs5 maps compared to maps with jumps that flow well like Senketsu no Chikai.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
huh, i guess i just don't think that kind of strain has a noticeable impact on playing, anymore than how hard it is to press a certain type of key down. in my experience if someone messes up on aiming it's reading related.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
What is aimif everyone connects misaims to misreads?
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Well reading has a strain of its own which is the time it takes for your brain to process what's on the screen and react to it accordingly. I don't get what's so "subjective" about that. The more things on the screen at once, the longer your brain will take to organize everything because it can't rely on reflexes. The less time you have to react, the more trained your reflexes will have to be to react to something. These are both two reading strains determined by the opposite ends of note density, and yet the attention paid to them is rather minimal.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079
I have an idea, if aim speed and accuracy can be independent, why can't a new subcategory be added for flashlight?
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Because most people have no clue what actually makes flashlight difficult. Memorization is the smallest factor, not the only one.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple
Strain as described by Tess is a real thing. When you have a series of jumps, the algorithm will calculate the aiming difficulty of each individual jump, and then this number is further increased as you have more jumps. That's strain, I think, but of the most simple variety.

If you have a series of jumps end on a spaced stream, that's a different matter. There is clearly a *lot* of effort that you need to put in order to hit all notes on the spaced stream at the end, but the current difficulty algorithm doesn't really take that into consideration, IMO. The effort you have to put to decelerate your cursor like that is definitely real, as B1rd said. I think this is also partly the reason why CS difficulty calculation is flawed and a flat bonus had to be put in place in order to fix star ratings for high CS maps.

That said, I don't think looking at angles alone is the way to implement a reading calculator. There are some good things you can do with it, but I don't think it's enough to fix highly overrated maps like Koigokoro. For that, you would need a pattern detector: an algorithm that looks at mapping patterns as a whole, instead of just calculating the angles from individual jumps. I'd say that if Tom wants to look into that, he should start very small and safe (as is many times the case in software developing), by testing individual patterns that are *for sure* a pain in the ass to everyone who plays this game and are also underrated by the current algorithm. I think that if you add a small batch of those to the current build, you would already be fixing DT farm maps by making everything else give much more PP. Alternatively, you could detect EASY patterns and then add a penalty, but to me that sounds more difficult.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Regarding the angle thing that got mentioned briefly several posts back, I think a lot of underweighted and overweighted aim patterns could be brought more into line just by considering the angle between the current straight line path and the previous straight line path. If you call that angle theta, something as simple as d^(a-cos(theta))/t^(a+cos(theta)) rather than d^a/t^a (where I think right now a=3) would fix a looot of problems. Would need to use a smaller measuring stick for distance in order to make it actually work, but that would be probably easy enough to find a good approximate value for.

Doing that correctly would nerf "slow" DT farm maps relative to faster ones - DT farm maps have lots of jumps with small angles between consecutive paths and the change I'm suggesting would make such jumps more dependent on effective bpm and less dependent on distance between notes. On the other extreme, large spacing with really wide angles would be buffed, but would scale less with effective bpm - things like the ridiculous quintuples in Genryuu Kaiko or any pattern at all in Worldwide Choppers.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
I'd just like to drop by to say (and repeat) that I really do think that even simpler and smaller pattern/rhythm complexity evaluation logic could be added, since anything in the right direction would be a step forward and better than not considering these aspects at all. As long as we feel the average error of the algorhythm gets smaller that is.

For rhythm complexity simply considering variability of the rhythm to a small extent would be great, to reward accing stuff that isn't 1/2 spam almost exclusively a bit more.
E m i
E m i
now measure the relation between the music and in-game objects, hitsounds...
ChanSenpai_old
1 post
Joined June 2015
ChanSenpai_old
i suck at this game and I'm a loser lol 8-)
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy
Is this intended behaviour?



I'm assuming that perhaps the speed difficulty is being calculated based upon the length of streams based on time, rather than the number of notes? It seems very counterintuitive though.

Here is a spreadsheet of values: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Here is a copy of the mapset I made while testing if you want to inspect it, I only just updated it though so it hasn't calculated the online difficulty ratings yet: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/298070

edit: This is, of course, a very primitive test, but I tried to minimise the effect that could happen due to aim or accuracy by using OD0 and perfect stacks with stack leniency 0. I don't claim to know how the pp/tar diff systems work but I do fine this rather odd

edit2: It was suggested that I also test this with different length streams to see if it changes and perhaps becomes nullified, I may do that at some point soon. 32 was just an arbitrary power of 2 that's a decent stream length in order to make my copying and pasting easier
Last edited by blahpy , edited 3 times in total.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
Now i know why Tom is planning to buff high bpm, since 240 seems to be the highest bpm that is being properly rewarded.
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
blahpy's post said it all, just check the star rating of Mad Machine DT if you want a ranked map to test on, it's way too low.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Tom pls why would you do this to us.
Barusamikosu_old_1
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu_old_1

Nice post count Jesus. Well memed, I know.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Try 64 and 128 notes?
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Would been a good idea about considering stream lenght by time instead amount of circles at all. Also both cases of very long streams and really fast stacks (355 bpm likely seen at xi - Breakthrough Atmosphere +DT because streams of 1/6 at 237 bpm) are both cases underrated. Seems that the meta for pp is finding a map full of "streams" 5-9 circles frequently, not complicated stream shape (mainly lineally and fluided ones) with higher spacing between circle and OD equal or over to OD8. Maps with streams of +30 circles and over 4 seconds of tapping aren't that seen in people's best performance, mainly because they're highly underrated compared to easier maps that can give more pp for less effort.

I find confusing that on some cases a 5.1 stars map likely Tristam & Braken - Frame of Mind [Chill] can give more pp than maps with 5.48 stars likely Shounen Radio - neu [Gold]...

Facts to consider
1.- Shounen radio has 821 elements, Tristam has 1042 elements
2.- Shounen radio is OD7, Tristam is OD8
3.- Tristam is much more consistent than Shounen radio is
4.- General ranking on top 50's talks by itself.
Personal tought: Tristam [Chill] is being highly farmed because it gives a way too much pp from accuracy value, instead shounen radio [gold] is avoided due it needs strong constancy at fingers on some parts and being massively underewarded because it's worth as very low accuracy on pp.

What I want to highlight from this?
1.- There should been a star system from "average star level" and "hardest star level", this would allow people to find maps to properly train constancy or instead going ahead for maps with high peaks of difficulty.
2.- General pp obtained from a map SHOULD be based on "average star level" and if this is worked finely, it should been balanced on both cases that requires or constancy or a nuke of skill on atleast a single part. This would take lots of effort, but looks promising.
3.- Accuracy is being overrated (mainly OD+8 with many circles). This makes people to avoid maps that they can't do with really good accuracy and instead they go for free accuracy = free pp maps. Needed of more tries to FC 95.50% Shounen Radio [gold] than to FC Tristam Frame of Mind [Chill] with 98.02% accuracy.

Preffered to not extend on too many topics at the same time, just mentioning one and describing another clearly.
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

GhostFrog wrote:

With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
Good theory, could be the reason yeah.

Kheldragar wrote:

Try 64 and 128 notes?
Will try some different numbers of notes later today when I have time
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Pretty interested for the results. Also, the pp vs. star rating thing DroidBass mentioned is legit. Some star ratings seem really off, and it still feels counterintuitive to me that a map of a certain SR would give less pp than a map of lower SR than the first.
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

Tess wrote:

it still feels counterintuitive to me that a map of a certain SR would give less pp than a map of lower SR than the first.
This can happen often due to accuracy rating due to OD, length, etc, i'm trying to minimise that effect here though
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

GhostFrog wrote:

With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
This is probably the reason. In the graph you can see how the amount of BPM difference increases between each of these "steps". Those breakpoints are where the 32 note stream starts being completely contained within one less of these intervals.

If you'd want to compare the difficulties of such streams I suggest you make a map at least 30 seconds long where you just repeat those streams with a short break inbetween. Sadly there could still be aliasing artifacts when the BPM and the time interval share common divisors, but they shouldn't be as bad.

The sudden knack at 300 BPM is by the way currently caused by a hard cap avoiding singularities in maps putting some hitobjects 1ms or even 0ms apart. I should probably make that higher now that some people actually start to pull off 300bpm scores.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

DroidBass wrote:

Facts to consider
1.- Shounen radio has 821 elements, Tristam has 1042 elements
2.- Shounen radio is OD7, Tristam is OD8
3.- Tristam is much more consistent than Shounen radio is
4.- General ranking on top 50's talks by itself.
you forgot 1 major thing.
tristam has 923 circles
shounen radio has 652 circles
sliders arent considered for acc, only for beatmap length.

so not only is tristam a higher od, it also has almost 300 circles more.
when aim/speed/acc get divided you will see that tristam most likely gives 30-40pp more in the acc part compared to shounen radio. while shounen radio will give more in the combined aim/speed part.

unfortunately pp cant tell how hard a map actually is to acc, it purely looks at od and amount of circles for that part afaik.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
IIRC that's the main reason why HR often feels undervalued. If the map doesn't score high in aim or speed but is still hard to acc (like marathons) it won't give any decent pp below 99%
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
also because most people don't have high acc.
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

Tom94 wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
This is probably the reason. In the graph you can see how the amount of BPM difference increases between each of these "steps". Those breakpoints are where the 32 note stream starts being completely contained within one less of these intervals.

If you'd want to compare the difficulties of such streams I suggest you make a map at least 30 seconds long where you just repeat those streams with a short break inbetween. Sadly there could still be aliasing artifacts when the BPM and the time interval share common divisors, but they shouldn't be as bad.

The sudden knack at 300 BPM is by the way currently caused by a hard cap avoiding singularities in maps putting some hitobjects 1ms or even 0ms apart. I should probably make that higher now that some people actually start to pull off 300bpm scores.
Thanks for the explanation, makes perfect sense now
Woobowiz
412 posts
Joined March 2014
Woobowiz

Riince wrote:

also because most people don't have high acc.
This, the reward curve for HR is incredibly steep so the only way it rewards you is if you get 99+% acc or if you're playing a 3+ minute map.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Even 6 minute maps give little under 98.5% unless it's a map that's hard to FC.
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
I feel like acc pp scales too exponentially. It should be more gradual imo 8-)
And I feel like Hidden aim pp should be 0 because its basically preference.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

And I feel like Hidden aim pp should be 0 because its basically preference.
Well, no.
While it's true that maps can become easier to read with Hidden it's still a lot harder to maintain combo. Hidden is clearly my mostplayed mod and the amount of shitmisses I get with hidden compared to nomod on maps i can play very comfortably(99%+ nomod) is immense. I think the difference could get smaller once I get better but I don't think you'll ever be equally consistent when using hidden.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Playing with HD is like synchronised swimming. Either you love the shit out of it or it absolutely disgusts you. I'm in the latter group.
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
I still feel like Hidden gives too much bonus pp.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm

B1rd wrote:

It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
Whether it makes things harder is somewhat subjective. Ik people who cant go without slapping on HD mod.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
It's not very subjective. It makes the object disappear before you have to hit it, so you have to memorise the location, and it makes it much harder to see stacked objects. This isn't subjective. There are very few people who can read HD better at AR9 who have not almost solely played HD and are not used to nomod.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

B1rd wrote:

It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
Whether it makes things harder is somewhat subjective. Ik people who cant go without slapping on HD mod.
You should know that this is an illness. They do it because they got so used to it that they started sucking when playing with approach circles. It's a similar phenomen to the "cant-play-below AR9.67"-people.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

Endaris wrote:

You should know that this is an illness.

An illness like pokerus maybe AKA the opposite of a problem
Barusamikosu_old_1
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu_old_1
Not being able to play maps without HD is definitely a problem. Kind of like people who can't read maps without HR. ;)

Nomod is the most basic form of osu gameplay. Anybody who can't play it has a huge gap in their skillset that needs to be addressed.
Also, from my personal experience--multiplayer and friend rankings (which I consider more representative of the 'average' osu player)--HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

Barusamikosu wrote:

HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

HK_ wrote:

Barusamikosu wrote:

HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
I should be the master at HD now by your logic.
DeletedUser_4329079
DeletedUser_4329079

HK_ wrote:

And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.

wat
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

Purple wrote:

Endaris wrote:

You should know that this is an illness.

An illness like pokerus maybe AKA the opposite of a problem
There's no valid analogy between what zenny said and the pokerus. Go play some pokemon and find out the difference.
Entering fury-mode would be a more fitting pokemon-analogy
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
simply false statment
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
You sir deserve a long time silence on forum for spreading such a bullshit. I am curious why you are even able to write here, mods must be very, very patient to handle this. It's not a question from your side, you just made a completly incorrect statment.

Ontopic:

By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:

Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
Like...what the actual fuck are you on? I want some of it.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

Kheldragar wrote:

I should be the master at HD now by your logic.
You wont literally master it by not playing it but you will get better at it.

And its something from my personal experience, zero guessing, so i dont really expect you to understand until you experience it.
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000
I play with HD 99% of the time but I still find nomod easier
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
You cannot get better at something by not playing it.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
You can at HD because it requires timing and aim (and memorisation but thats pretty irrelevant here) - something that comes with playing no mod. And being able to play more complex patterns with HD comes with being able to play even more complex patterns no mod.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
But you can also improve your timing and aim by playing Hidden while also improving your memorization. What's more is that hidden will start to come to you more naturally because you're actually playing the damn mod.

That's like saying nomod is a good way to improve at Hard Rock. Sure, you're learning to aim and get accuracy better, but why the fuck aren't you just playing HR if you want to learn HR? They'll never be the same and experience playing WITH the mod is far more valuable for playing the mod than experience playing WITHOUT the mod.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
You get better at HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
You get better with HD by simply playing no mod.
About FL...well i have no clue since i never played it.

And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slower) at once by playing no mod?
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slowe) at once by playing no mod?.
The better question is why even play with mods at all until you get high ranked enough to stop earning PP from nomod? Don't learn mods early, kids.

HK_ wrote:

You get better with HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
Please find me a ranked nomod AR10 OD10 CS5.2 map

HR will always be better for learning HR

I doubt you're even on the level where playing HR actually gives you AR10 OD10 so you probably can't even speak from experience on this.

HK_ wrote:

You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
99% of active players don't actually play at a level where DT actually requires skill, and high BPM nomod is very different to high BPM DT maps. Contrast something like Image Material to something like SeveN DT.

HK_ wrote:

You get better with HD by simply playing.
Nothing at nomod will help you aim at circles that aren't there anymore. Play HD to learn HD, because there's nothing else in the game like HD.

HK_ wrote:

After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
...no, they're vastly different in requirements. HD is the closest mod to being nomod.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

Mahoganytooth wrote:

The better question is why even play with mods at all until you get high ranked enough to stop earning PP from nomod? Don't learn mods early, kids.
Kids you heard him.

Please find me a ranked nomod AR10 OD10 CS5.2 map
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/216979 Just wait for it (not quite CS5 but you have plenty of maps with it). And you can edit too, i never said it has to be ranked.

I doubt you're even on the level where playing HR actually gives you AR10 OD10 so you probably can't even speak from experience on this.
lol

high BPM nomod is very different to high BPM DT maps.
ask val0108

Nothing at nomod will help you aim at circles that aren't there anymore. Play HD to learn HD, because there's nothing else in the game like HD.
No comment

...no, they're vastly different in requirements. HD is the closest mod to being nomod.
At AR/OD/CS/HP10 HR does literally nothing so thats 50% wrong.
Edit BPM (not in editor -_-) to one you get with DT and thats...well...DT without DT so now you are 100% wrong.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
You get better at HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
WTB reasonable amount of AR10, OD9.8, HP10, CS5.2 maps NOMOD.

"Hard Rock (named after the hardest difficulty of the DS game Elite Beat Agents) decreases hit circle size by 1 tick while increasing the overall difficulty, approach rate, and the HP drain by 2 or 3 ticks of their original value up to a maximum of 10. The difference in AR is often hard to notice except when used on maps with an original AR of 7 or greater, as it will push the AR to the maximum value of 10. Hard Rock can be a very difficult mod (especially on insane maps) as it not only demands higher cursor accuracy, it also requires the ability to read lightning-fast approach circles. " - Osu!Wiki

You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
"Double Time increases the overall beatmap's speed to 150% of the original, reducing the length of the song by 33%. This might be considered deceptive because the BPM is not actually doubled, despite being called "Double Time". The method used to increase the speed doesn't increase the pitch of the song, but can make it sound "muddy".

Because the song is sped up, the approach rate also increases, which often makes it quite difficult when paired with Hard Rock. " - Osu!Wiki

Additionaly:

AR: " Double Time: The AR value doesn't change, but the 1.5x play speed causes circles to stay on screen 33% shorter. " (Osu!Wiki), https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/File:ARTable.png
OD: "Double Time: The OD value doesn't change, but the 1.5x play speed causes hit windows to be 33% shorter. " (Osu!Wiki) https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/File:ODTable.png

That's all what i say about pure facts and diffrence betwin nomod and this 2 mods. In a way where you do not deny this.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
Do you seriously not realise that by editing a map in a proper way you can get same effects you get with DT/HR except when paired together and give AR/OD/HP11???
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Can you guys please take this to the Pointless Argument Thread instead of cluttering up this one?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Just copy&paste my honest question to experienced players:

By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:

Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

HK_ wrote:

PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
Just copy miiro an daidai genome.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

Kheldragar wrote:

HK_ wrote:

PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
Just copy miiro an daidai genome.
Wouldnt OD10 and ton of fullscreen jumps be better? With DT of course.
E m i
E m i

HK_ wrote:

PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
gg you got me
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

Do you seriously not realise that by editing a map in a proper way you can get same effects you get with DT/HR except when paired together and give AR/OD/HP11???
Of course you can. But then you've edited a map to be DT or HR of the original map.

HK_ wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/216979 Just wait for it (not quite CS5 but you have plenty of maps with it). And you can edit too, i never said it has to be ranked.
This map is, again, one of those "This is so ridiculously difficult" maps that it's inclusion of AR10 OD10 and lower CS than normal is excusable. You're cherry picking the exceptions here.

HK_ wrote:

lol
Don't blame me for making judgements, man. Your #2 #3 and #4 top ranks are all 2 star maps.

HK_ wrote:

ask val0108
Who?

HK_ wrote:

At AR/OD/CS/HP10 HR does literally nothing so thats 50% wrong.
No fucking shit, dumbass, but the reason people use HR is to GET those values. Who the fuck even makes maps with that small CS except for Irreversible?

HK_ wrote:

Edit BPM (not in editor -_-) to one you get with DT and thats...well...DT without DT so now you are 100% wrong.
...no, you literally just made the map DT. Not to mention with this you don't get the increased AR and OD
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

Mahoganytooth wrote:

Of course you can. But then you've edited a map to be DT or HR of the original map.
That would be same as saying "Your AR/OD10 map is unrankable because its a HR of an original" to a mapper. Please never do that.

This map is, again, one of those "This is so ridiculously difficult" maps that it's inclusion of AR10 OD10 and lower CS than normal is excusable. You're cherry picking the exceptions here.
You are the one picking here. You asked for a map, i gave you a map. Thats it.

Don't blame me for making judgements, man. Your #2 #3 and #4 top ranks are all 2 star maps.
I wouldnt blame you if you actualy dared to look at my #1. I think itd be pretty damn hard to spam out 97% on a map 2 stars above my level.

No fucking shit, dumbass, but the reason people use HR is to GET those values. Who the fuck even makes maps with that small CS except for Irreversible?
There is someone who actually uses CS10??? The more you know...
And they are using HR to get 1,06x score boost not those values lmao

...no, you literally just made the map DT. Not to mention with this you don't get the increased AR and OD
Where did DT go to then? Its a no mod DT of that map. Deal with it.
But you dont need AR10,3/11 up until crazy high rank.

Mahoganytooth wrote:

normal rules stop applying at the highest levels of play
your words not mine sry
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points - FULL PP FORMULA FOR EACH GAME MODE

If you want to spam your bs more, create a topic in OT and post it there, stop spamming here and provoking people.
kthxbai.

Reposting since there is way too much spam here and i cannot get answer for pretty technical and important for me question.

By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:

Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

That would be same as saying "Your AR/OD10 map is unrankable because its a HR of an original" to a mapper. Please never do that.
But if something is a copy of another map with just changed OD and AR that is unrankable AFAIK.

HK_ wrote:

You are the one picking here. You asked for a map, i gave you a map. Thats it.
I was asking for a map as a rhetorical statement to get you thinking about how few maps have high AR and OD, but you're too thick to get that through your tiny skull.

HK_ wrote:

I wouldnt blame you if you actualy dared to look at my #1.
Your number 1 score is shit AND on a farm map, but it makes more of a point to show that you play 2 star maps.

HK_ wrote:

There is someone who actually uses CS10??? The more you know...
CS7 is the highest CS you can use in a normal map IIRC.

HK_ wrote:

And they are using HR to get 1,06x score boost not those values lmao
No, the majority are using HR to get those values to get increased PP gain, twat.

HK_ wrote:

Where did DT go to then? Its a no mod DT of that map. Deal with it.
Please tell me what you're smoking so I can get some

You're playing the map in DT except for some reason you decided to make the map unranked instead of actually playing the ranked version with DT to have a proper experience.

HK_ wrote:

But you dont need AR10,3/11 up until crazy high rank.
You don't "need" AR10.3 at all, and nobody even sightreads AR11.

HK_ wrote:

your words not mine sry
The main reason for that statement is that people generally come here for advice, we give them a set of rules and guidelines to follow. High ranked players know their shit and don't need rules or guidelines to follow because they already fucking know how to play and improve well.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Flat bonuses from HD, FL and CS5.2+ come after DT or HR is applied
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

CXu wrote:

@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skill
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000

HK_ wrote:

CXu wrote:

@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skill
If nomod can help you play DT, why would adding HR to the same map not help you anymore
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR.
Untrue. Learning HR to learn AR10 is a good way to prepare yourself for playing AR 10.3 with DT. Just like playing DT earlier to learn AR 9.67 is a good way to prepare yourself to learn AR10 with HR.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

HK_ wrote:

CXu wrote:

@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skill
But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

CXu wrote:

But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
By using this and making DT out of some map + adding HR to it, it would most certainly make it possible to practice DT by playing HR haha
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

CXu wrote:

But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
By using this and making DT out of some map + adding HR to it, it would most certainly make it possible to practice DT by playing HR haha
Or you could just play the map with DTHR?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Where is logic in changing map to make it look like "HR" or "DT"?
Where is logic to make full map unranked and play it with changed stats when you will be still unable to play ranked version?

Answer for both: there is no logic in this action.

To change map into HR you need additionaly flip it in X-Axis which takes time - pointless. Waste of time what you can use to actualy PLAY this map with HR and start learning it.
To change map into DT... also waste of time. Same, use it to just play and learn.

My editor usage starts and end on cutting ceratin part of map (single pattern) what gives me huge truble and training it - WITHOUT changed map stats since main reason is to learn how it works, how to play it, train your muscle memory and eyes on it in order to achieve good score in ranked map.

If someone still think that playing nomod will prepare you to play DT/HR... or delusional myth "changing map into OD10 will make my acc better" please go to reddit with this discussion and stop derailing thread (or create another one).
This is my humble request. I think we don't want to piss off peppy when some mod close this topic becouse of too much bullshit and spam.

EoT for me.
xhale
16 posts
Joined July 2014
xhale
I just lost 13pp and dropped like 150 ranks when i beat my score on apples to the core. original score was 98.65% with DT, and the new score was 96,33% with HD,DT. I'm sure people have mentioned this before. I got really mad, and tried to fix it. now I can't even beat the first part anymore, because of retrying so much. Maybe HD should give abit more pp? It's the same for everyone, so why not?
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama
Because it's a rhythm game and shit accuracy shouldn't be more rewarded than better accuracy just because you decided to play with fade-out circles rather than approach circles in a map with no overlaps.
Barusamikosu_old_1
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu_old_1

xhaled wrote:

I just lost 13pp and dropped like 150 ranks when i beat my score on apples to the core. original score was 98.65% with DT, and the new score was 96,33% with HD,DT. I'm sure people have mentioned this before. I got really mad, and tried to fix it. now I can't even beat the first part anymore, because of retrying so much. Maybe HD should give abit more pp? It's the same for everyone, so why not?
This is why you never ever play HD after getting a good score or at all. It's different if you're already good at HD and confident you can keep your accuracy, but most people are terrible at HD so this kind of thing happens.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Well I'm posting here something very interesting I've found about some DT maps with different pp efficiency levels, and how some kind of pattenrs are pp ineficient and how some others are too pp efficent. Here I post you my toughts of 6 different cases of DT maps that can give 250's pp. Starting from least pp efficent to most pp efficent.

07th Expansion - worldenddominator [La cataline]: Old school map that is really tricky at terms of tapping complexity and with some really unfortable patterns and known for having a duplets spam that bothers most persons. You can still enter to its #50's even playing no mod.
Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
Lindsey Stirling - Elements [Fire]: This is a respectful map that isn't too farmed due it has some interesting streams, sliderstreams and some curius jumps. It's not friendly or badass for pp means.
Skrillex & The Doors - Breakn' a Sweat (Original Mix) [Insane]: This map is really fine, but it is being a way too abused due it drops absurd pp values on really high accuracy. The higher your accuracy is on here the more overrated in pp your rank on this is.
Primastella - Koigokoro [Deli's Insane]: Koigokoro isn't an easy map, but is known from being one of most farmed maps in osu. From being overrated on this star system and high amount of circles this map proves it's very pp friendly aswell its sister the Insane is.
Tsunamaru - Daidai Genome: This map is indeed the most broken pp map in existance. Nothing easy but at being too overvalued it encourages too many players to farm it. OVERRATED at both star system and from pp given by accuracy.





Facts to consider
Worldenddominator 213 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.41 stars, 485 circles, 291 sliders
Skillet hero 213 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.39 STARS, 418 circles, 208 sliders
Lindsey Stirling elements 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.73 stars, 392 circles, 206 sliders
Breakn Sweat “210 bpm”, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.31 stars, 332 circles, 320 sliders
Koigokoro 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, “5.51” stars, 348 circles, 125 sliders
Daidai genome 203 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, “6 stars”, 425 circles, 70 sliders


Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
2.- PP optained from accuracy at higher values of OD + higher amount of tapable elements is very farmable.
3.- Maps with comfortable spacing and easy tapping but high settings and high spacing are the most farmable.
4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...

Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

ReynBolt wrote:

Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
I thought it was just the OD 9.67 that made it a bitch to get good accuracy on. Got any examples?

Also, I'm wondering how much pp daidai genome would give if it had been OD 7 + DT instead of OD 8.
jaaakb
2,512 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb

ReynBolt wrote:

Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
current pp thingy doesn't take into account patterns (directions) at all, just the length/speed of jumps
troll patterns are not underrated, they are not rated at all, nor are easy patterns

ReynBolt wrote:

4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...

Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
acc = pp

current pp thing doesn't take into account tapping patterns (complex/hard to tap or very simple) at all, so the easy ones to acc will seem easier ppwise
the stars do what they are meant to, it's just the system not taking into account some big (subjective) parts of what makes stuff difficult


please correct me if i'm wrong
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
It isn't about maps being overrated with DT.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

jaaakb wrote:

ReynBolt wrote:

Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
current pp thingy doesn't take into account patterns (directions) at all, just the length/speed of jumps
troll patterns are not underrated, they are not rated at all, nor are easy patterns

ReynBolt wrote:

4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...

Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
acc = pp

current pp thing doesn't take into account tapping patterns (complex/hard to tap or very simple) at all, so the easy ones to acc will seem easier ppwise
the stars do what they are meant to, it's just the system not taking into account some big (subjective) parts of what makes stuff difficult


please correct me if i'm wrong
I find all this fine.


Endaris wrote:

It isn't about maps being overrated with DT.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
That was why I only evaluated DT maps, there are UNDERRATED DT maps aswell. But lots of people rather complaining "play DT for pp" instead of "play free accuracy maps for pp". By free accuracy maps I mean all these maps that anyone can optain high accuracy with not to much effort, that anyone farms because they're free accuracy = free pp (regardless of mod that you're using). And it's a fact that most of these free accuracy maps are DT ones, but it's a lie that ANY is DT, but it's a true fact that some free pp no mod maps with HR over them aren't that free pp, similar to Our Stolen Theory - United (L.A.O.S Remix) that many farms with no mod but when HR is added it doesn't seem to me a farm map.

United no mod = pp for hungreds of people
United + HR = pp for about 20 players in the top #50's
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil
@ReynBolt

The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.

It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)

Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.

Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Hero is frustrating to play because OD 8 + DT instead of OD7.
E m i
E m i
tfw can't fc first half of koigokoro and daidai genome
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Mikakage wrote:

@ReynBolt

The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.

It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)

Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.

Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
Well yes. The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps, that sometimes are few seconds lenght. I've mentionated that case earlier in the 153'th page, you can look at it here and finding the post. I personally think that the star system needs ton consider both highest star level and average star level and pp being considered by the average one. But it's very known that these map with too many stars wth difficulty peaks are giving more pp than intended because the actual system calculates these map likely if the WHOLE MAP is as HARD as HARDEST parts are, even if only a really small fraction (several seconds on some case) of the map have that real difficulty.

But in the case showed in the earlier post of mine, we have a case of a consistent map that is being better rated againist an inconsistent one that is known from being badass. Shounen radio neu [gold] isn't completely consistent, but its peaks of difficulty aren't based in too small periods of time ... instead a considerable fraction of the map is as hard as most dificult parts. I can't really explain this well at all, it's not simple to me .-.



[Now to general topic]

And yes, I can't FC koikogokoro or Dai Dai genome DT's, but still too many people find these maps too easy because these patterns are clean and they are focused at only aiming and tapping clean patterns (no tricky pauses nor change of timming or radical changes at the osng) and I personally find unfair that a group of players that can't do these maps get a grave handicap in ranking just because not being capable to FC THREE maps (the 2 insanes of koigokoro and Daidai genome) that are known to give much pp. I just want that this game becomes "be free to rank anything you want" instead of seing the existance of many "THIS IS A MUST TO HAVE MAP"

Be noticed that it's true that there are people that ranks over 100 positions at 1200-2000th only with Genome FC... Why a single map has to be THAT important? please no q-q
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