This, the reward curve for HR is incredibly steep so the only way it rewards you is if you get 99+% acc or if you're playing a 3+ minute map.Riince wrote:
also because most people don't have high acc.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)
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Even 6 minute maps give little under 98.5% unless it's a map that's hard to FC.
ZenithPhantasm
Well, no.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
And I feel like Hidden aim pp should be 0 because its basically preference.
While it's true that maps can become easier to read with Hidden it's still a lot harder to maintain combo. Hidden is clearly my mostplayed mod and the amount of shitmisses I get with hidden compared to nomod on maps i can play very comfortably(99%+ nomod) is immense. I think the difference could get smaller once I get better but I don't think you'll ever be equally consistent when using hidden.
Playing with HD is like synchronised swimming. Either you love the shit out of it or it absolutely disgusts you. I'm in the latter group.
It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
ZenithPhantasm
It's not very subjective. It makes the object disappear before you have to hit it, so you have to memorise the location, and it makes it much harder to see stacked objects. This isn't subjective. There are very few people who can read HD better at AR9 who have not almost solely played HD and are not used to nomod.
You should know that this is an illness. They do it because they got so used to it that they started sucking when playing with approach circles. It's a similar phenomen to the "cant-play-below AR9.67"-people.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Whether it makes things harder is somewhat subjective. Ik people who cant go without slapping on HD mod.B1rd wrote:
It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
Endaris wrote:
You should know that this is an illness.
An illness like pokerus maybe AKA the opposite of a problem
Not being able to play maps without HD is definitely a problem. Kind of like people who can't read maps without HR. 
Nomod is the most basic form of osu gameplay. Anybody who can't play it has a huge gap in their skillset that needs to be addressed.
Also, from my personal experience--multiplayer and friend rankings (which I consider more representative of the 'average' osu player)--HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
Nomod is the most basic form of osu gameplay. Anybody who can't play it has a huge gap in their skillset that needs to be addressed.
Also, from my personal experience--multiplayer and friend rankings (which I consider more representative of the 'average' osu player)--HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.Barusamikosu wrote:
HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
I should be the master at HD now by your logic.HK_ wrote:
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.Barusamikosu wrote:
HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
DeletedUser_4329079
There's no valid analogy between what zenny said and the pokerus. Go play some pokemon and find out the difference.Purple wrote:
Endaris wrote:
You should know that this is an illness.
An illness like pokerus maybe AKA the opposite of a problem
Entering fury-mode would be a more fitting pokemon-analogy
You sir deserve a long time silence on forum for spreading such a bullshit. I am curious why you are even able to write here, mods must be very, very patient to handle this. It's not a question from your side, you just made a completly incorrect statment.simply false statmentAnd its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
Ontopic:
By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Like...what the actual fuck are you on? I want some of it.HK_ wrote:
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
You wont literally master it by not playing it but you will get better at it.Kheldragar wrote:
I should be the master at HD now by your logic.
And its something from my personal experience, zero guessing, so i dont really expect you to understand until you experience it.
I play with HD 99% of the time but I still find nomod easier
You cannot get better at something by not playing it.
You can at HD because it requires timing and aim (and memorisation but thats pretty irrelevant here) - something that comes with playing no mod. And being able to play more complex patterns with HD comes with being able to play even more complex patterns no mod.
But you can also improve your timing and aim by playing Hidden while also improving your memorization. What's more is that hidden will start to come to you more naturally because you're actually playing the damn mod.
That's like saying nomod is a good way to improve at Hard Rock. Sure, you're learning to aim and get accuracy better, but why the fuck aren't you just playing HR if you want to learn HR? They'll never be the same and experience playing WITH the mod is far more valuable for playing the mod than experience playing WITHOUT the mod.
That's like saying nomod is a good way to improve at Hard Rock. Sure, you're learning to aim and get accuracy better, but why the fuck aren't you just playing HR if you want to learn HR? They'll never be the same and experience playing WITH the mod is far more valuable for playing the mod than experience playing WITHOUT the mod.
You get better at HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
You get better with HD by simply playing no mod.
About FL...well i have no clue since i never played it.
And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slower) at once by playing no mod?
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
You get better with HD by simply playing no mod.
About FL...well i have no clue since i never played it.
And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slower) at once by playing no mod?
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
The better question is why even play with mods at all until you get high ranked enough to stop earning PP from nomod? Don't learn mods early, kids.HK_ wrote:
And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slowe) at once by playing no mod?.
Please find me a ranked nomod AR10 OD10 CS5.2 mapHK_ wrote:
You get better with HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
HR will always be better for learning HR
I doubt you're even on the level where playing HR actually gives you AR10 OD10 so you probably can't even speak from experience on this.
99% of active players don't actually play at a level where DT actually requires skill, and high BPM nomod is very different to high BPM DT maps. Contrast something like Image Material to something like SeveN DT.HK_ wrote:
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
Nothing at nomod will help you aim at circles that aren't there anymore. Play HD to learn HD, because there's nothing else in the game like HD.HK_ wrote:
You get better with HD by simply playing.
...no, they're vastly different in requirements. HD is the closest mod to being nomod.HK_ wrote:
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
Mahoganytooth wrote:
The better question is why even play with mods at all until you get high ranked enough to stop earning PP from nomod? Don't learn mods early, kids.
Kids you heard him.
Please find me a ranked nomod AR10 OD10 CS5.2 map
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/216979 Just wait for it (not quite CS5 but you have plenty of maps with it). And you can edit too, i never said it has to be ranked.
I doubt you're even on the level where playing HR actually gives you AR10 OD10 so you probably can't even speak from experience on this.
lol
high BPM nomod is very different to high BPM DT maps.
ask val0108
Nothing at nomod will help you aim at circles that aren't there anymore. Play HD to learn HD, because there's nothing else in the game like HD.
No comment
...no, they're vastly different in requirements. HD is the closest mod to being nomod.
At AR/OD/CS/HP10 HR does literally nothing so thats 50% wrong.
Edit BPM (not in editor -_-) to one you get with DT and thats...well...DT without DT so now you are 100% wrong.
You get better at HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.WTB reasonable amount of AR10, OD9.8, HP10, CS5.2 maps NOMOD.
"Hard Rock (named after the hardest difficulty of the DS game Elite Beat Agents) decreases hit circle size by 1 tick while increasing the overall difficulty, approach rate, and the HP drain by 2 or 3 ticks of their original value up to a maximum of 10. The difference in AR is often hard to notice except when used on maps with an original AR of 7 or greater, as it will push the AR to the maximum value of 10. Hard Rock can be a very difficult mod (especially on insane maps) as it not only demands higher cursor accuracy, it also requires the ability to read lightning-fast approach circles. " - Osu!Wiki
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod."Double Time increases the overall beatmap's speed to 150% of the original, reducing the length of the song by 33%. This might be considered deceptive because the BPM is not actually doubled, despite being called "Double Time". The method used to increase the speed doesn't increase the pitch of the song, but can make it sound "muddy".
Because the song is sped up, the approach rate also increases, which often makes it quite difficult when paired with Hard Rock. " - Osu!Wiki
Additionaly:
AR: " Double Time: The AR value doesn't change, but the 1.5x play speed causes circles to stay on screen 33% shorter. " (Osu!Wiki), https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/File:ARTable.png
OD: "Double Time: The OD value doesn't change, but the 1.5x play speed causes hit windows to be 33% shorter. " (Osu!Wiki) https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/File:ODTable.png
That's all what i say about pure facts and diffrence betwin nomod and this 2 mods. In a way where you do not deny this.
Do you seriously not realise that by editing a map in a proper way you can get same effects you get with DT/HR except when paired together and give AR/OD/HP11???
Can you guys please take this to the Pointless Argument Thread instead of cluttering up this one?
Just copy&paste my honest question to experienced players:
By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
Just copy miiro an daidai genome.HK_ wrote:
PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
Wouldnt OD10 and ton of fullscreen jumps be better? With DT of course.Kheldragar wrote:
Just copy miiro an daidai genome.HK_ wrote:
PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
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PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.
gg you got me
Of course you can. But then you've edited a map to be DT or HR of the original map.HK_ wrote:
Do you seriously not realise that by editing a map in a proper way you can get same effects you get with DT/HR except when paired together and give AR/OD/HP11???
This map is, again, one of those "This is so ridiculously difficult" maps that it's inclusion of AR10 OD10 and lower CS than normal is excusable. You're cherry picking the exceptions here.HK_ wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/216979 Just wait for it (not quite CS5 but you have plenty of maps with it). And you can edit too, i never said it has to be ranked.
Don't blame me for making judgements, man. Your #2 #3 and #4 top ranks are all 2 star maps.HK_ wrote:
lol
Who?HK_ wrote:
ask val0108
No fucking shit, dumbass, but the reason people use HR is to GET those values. Who the fuck even makes maps with that small CS except for Irreversible?HK_ wrote:
At AR/OD/CS/HP10 HR does literally nothing so thats 50% wrong.
...no, you literally just made the map DT. Not to mention with this you don't get the increased AR and ODHK_ wrote:
Edit BPM (not in editor -_-) to one you get with DT and thats...well...DT without DT so now you are 100% wrong.
Mahoganytooth wrote:
Of course you can. But then you've edited a map to be DT or HR of the original map.
That would be same as saying "Your AR/OD10 map is unrankable because its a HR of an original" to a mapper. Please never do that.
This map is, again, one of those "This is so ridiculously difficult" maps that it's inclusion of AR10 OD10 and lower CS than normal is excusable. You're cherry picking the exceptions here.
You are the one picking here. You asked for a map, i gave you a map. Thats it.
Don't blame me for making judgements, man. Your #2 #3 and #4 top ranks are all 2 star maps.
I wouldnt blame you if you actualy dared to look at my #1. I think itd be pretty damn hard to spam out 97% on a map 2 stars above my level.
No fucking shit, dumbass, but the reason people use HR is to GET those values. Who the fuck even makes maps with that small CS except for Irreversible?
There is someone who actually uses CS10??? The more you know...
And they are using HR to get 1,06x score boost not those values lmao
...no, you literally just made the map DT. Not to mention with this you don't get the increased AR and OD
Where did DT go to then? Its a no mod DT of that map. Deal with it.
But you dont need AR10,3/11 up until crazy high rank.your words not mine sryMahoganytooth wrote:
normal rules stop applying at the highest levels of play
PP formula isnt available to public because that would lead to making real pp maps.https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points - FULL PP FORMULA FOR EACH GAME MODE
If you want to spam your bs more, create a topic in OT and post it there, stop spamming here and provoking people.
kthxbai.
Reposting since there is way too much spam here and i cannot get answer for pretty technical and important for me question.
By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
But if something is a copy of another map with just changed OD and AR that is unrankable AFAIK.HK_ wrote:
That would be same as saying "Your AR/OD10 map is unrankable because its a HR of an original" to a mapper. Please never do that.
I was asking for a map as a rhetorical statement to get you thinking about how few maps have high AR and OD, but you're too thick to get that through your tiny skull.HK_ wrote:
You are the one picking here. You asked for a map, i gave you a map. Thats it.
Your number 1 score is shit AND on a farm map, but it makes more of a point to show that you play 2 star maps.HK_ wrote:
I wouldnt blame you if you actualy dared to look at my #1.
CS7 is the highest CS you can use in a normal map IIRC.HK_ wrote:
There is someone who actually uses CS10??? The more you know...
No, the majority are using HR to get those values to get increased PP gain, twat.HK_ wrote:
And they are using HR to get 1,06x score boost not those values lmao
Please tell me what you're smoking so I can get someHK_ wrote:
Where did DT go to then? Its a no mod DT of that map. Deal with it.
You're playing the map in DT except for some reason you decided to make the map unranked instead of actually playing the ranked version with DT to have a proper experience.
You don't "need" AR10.3 at all, and nobody even sightreads AR11.HK_ wrote:
But you dont need AR10,3/11 up until crazy high rank.
The main reason for that statement is that people generally come here for advice, we give them a set of rules and guidelines to follow. High ranked players know their shit and don't need rules or guidelines to follow because they already fucking know how to play and improve well.HK_ wrote:
your words not mine sry
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?Flat bonuses from HD, FL and CS5.2+ come after DT or HR is applied
@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skillCXu wrote:
@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
If nomod can help you play DT, why would adding HR to the same map not help you anymoreHK_ wrote:
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skillCXu wrote:
@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Untrue. Learning HR to learn AR10 is a good way to prepare yourself for playing AR 10.3 with DT. Just like playing DT earlier to learn AR 9.67 is a good way to prepare yourself to learn AR10 with HR.HK_ wrote:
You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR.
But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.HK_ wrote:
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skillCXu wrote:
@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
By using this and making DT out of some map + adding HR to it, it would most certainly make it possible to practice DT by playing HR hahaCXu wrote:
But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
Or you could just play the map with DTHR?HK_ wrote:
By using this and making DT out of some map + adding HR to it, it would most certainly make it possible to practice DT by playing HR hahaCXu wrote:
But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
Where is logic in changing map to make it look like "HR" or "DT"?
Where is logic to make full map unranked and play it with changed stats when you will be still unable to play ranked version?
Answer for both: there is no logic in this action.
To change map into HR you need additionaly flip it in X-Axis which takes time - pointless. Waste of time what you can use to actualy PLAY this map with HR and start learning it.
To change map into DT... also waste of time. Same, use it to just play and learn.
My editor usage starts and end on cutting ceratin part of map (single pattern) what gives me huge truble and training it - WITHOUT changed map stats since main reason is to learn how it works, how to play it, train your muscle memory and eyes on it in order to achieve good score in ranked map.
If someone still think that playing nomod will prepare you to play DT/HR... or delusional myth "changing map into OD10 will make my acc better" please go to reddit with this discussion and stop derailing thread (or create another one).
This is my humble request. I think we don't want to piss off peppy when some mod close this topic becouse of too much bullshit and spam.
EoT for me.
Where is logic to make full map unranked and play it with changed stats when you will be still unable to play ranked version?
Answer for both: there is no logic in this action.
To change map into HR you need additionaly flip it in X-Axis which takes time - pointless. Waste of time what you can use to actualy PLAY this map with HR and start learning it.
To change map into DT... also waste of time. Same, use it to just play and learn.
My editor usage starts and end on cutting ceratin part of map (single pattern) what gives me huge truble and training it - WITHOUT changed map stats since main reason is to learn how it works, how to play it, train your muscle memory and eyes on it in order to achieve good score in ranked map.
If someone still think that playing nomod will prepare you to play DT/HR... or delusional myth "changing map into OD10 will make my acc better" please go to reddit with this discussion and stop derailing thread (or create another one).
This is my humble request. I think we don't want to piss off peppy when some mod close this topic becouse of too much bullshit and spam.
EoT for me.
I just lost 13pp and dropped like 150 ranks when i beat my score on apples to the core. original score was 98.65% with DT, and the new score was 96,33% with HD,DT. I'm sure people have mentioned this before. I got really mad, and tried to fix it. now I can't even beat the first part anymore, because of retrying so much. Maybe HD should give abit more pp? It's the same for everyone, so why not?
Because it's a rhythm game and shit accuracy shouldn't be more rewarded than better accuracy just because you decided to play with fade-out circles rather than approach circles in a map with no overlaps.
This is why you never ever play HD after getting a good score or at all. It's different if you're already good at HD and confident you can keep your accuracy, but most people are terrible at HD so this kind of thing happens.xhaled wrote:
I just lost 13pp and dropped like 150 ranks when i beat my score on apples to the core. original score was 98.65% with DT, and the new score was 96,33% with HD,DT. I'm sure people have mentioned this before. I got really mad, and tried to fix it. now I can't even beat the first part anymore, because of retrying so much. Maybe HD should give abit more pp? It's the same for everyone, so why not?
Well I'm posting here something very interesting I've found about some DT maps with different pp efficiency levels, and how some kind of pattenrs are pp ineficient and how some others are too pp efficent. Here I post you my toughts of 6 different cases of DT maps that can give 250's pp. Starting from least pp efficent to most pp efficent.
07th Expansion - worldenddominator [La cataline]: Old school map that is really tricky at terms of tapping complexity and with some really unfortable patterns and known for having a duplets spam that bothers most persons. You can still enter to its #50's even playing no mod.
Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
Lindsey Stirling - Elements [Fire]: This is a respectful map that isn't too farmed due it has some interesting streams, sliderstreams and some curius jumps. It's not friendly or badass for pp means.
Skrillex & The Doors - Breakn' a Sweat (Original Mix) [Insane]: This map is really fine, but it is being a way too abused due it drops absurd pp values on really high accuracy. The higher your accuracy is on here the more overrated in pp your rank on this is.
Primastella - Koigokoro [Deli's Insane]: Koigokoro isn't an easy map, but is known from being one of most farmed maps in osu. From being overrated on this star system and high amount of circles this map proves it's very pp friendly aswell its sister the Insane is.
Tsunamaru - Daidai Genome: This map is indeed the most broken pp map in existance. Nothing easy but at being too overvalued it encourages too many players to farm it. OVERRATED at both star system and from pp given by accuracy.
Facts to consider
Worldenddominator 213 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.41 stars, 485 circles, 291 sliders
Skillet hero 213 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.39 STARS, 418 circles, 208 sliders
Lindsey Stirling elements 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.73 stars, 392 circles, 206 sliders
Breakn Sweat “210 bpm”, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.31 stars, 332 circles, 320 sliders
Koigokoro 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, “5.51” stars, 348 circles, 125 sliders
Daidai genome 203 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, “6 stars”, 425 circles, 70 sliders
Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
2.- PP optained from accuracy at higher values of OD + higher amount of tapable elements is very farmable.
3.- Maps with comfortable spacing and easy tapping but high settings and high spacing are the most farmable.
4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...
Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
07th Expansion - worldenddominator [La cataline]: Old school map that is really tricky at terms of tapping complexity and with some really unfortable patterns and known for having a duplets spam that bothers most persons. You can still enter to its #50's even playing no mod.
Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
Lindsey Stirling - Elements [Fire]: This is a respectful map that isn't too farmed due it has some interesting streams, sliderstreams and some curius jumps. It's not friendly or badass for pp means.
Skrillex & The Doors - Breakn' a Sweat (Original Mix) [Insane]: This map is really fine, but it is being a way too abused due it drops absurd pp values on really high accuracy. The higher your accuracy is on here the more overrated in pp your rank on this is.
Primastella - Koigokoro [Deli's Insane]: Koigokoro isn't an easy map, but is known from being one of most farmed maps in osu. From being overrated on this star system and high amount of circles this map proves it's very pp friendly aswell its sister the Insane is.
Tsunamaru - Daidai Genome: This map is indeed the most broken pp map in existance. Nothing easy but at being too overvalued it encourages too many players to farm it. OVERRATED at both star system and from pp given by accuracy.
Facts to consider
Worldenddominator 213 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.41 stars, 485 circles, 291 sliders
Skillet hero 213 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.39 STARS, 418 circles, 208 sliders
Lindsey Stirling elements 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.73 stars, 392 circles, 206 sliders
Breakn Sweat “210 bpm”, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.31 stars, 332 circles, 320 sliders
Koigokoro 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, “5.51” stars, 348 circles, 125 sliders
Daidai genome 203 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, “6 stars”, 425 circles, 70 sliders
Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
2.- PP optained from accuracy at higher values of OD + higher amount of tapable elements is very farmable.
3.- Maps with comfortable spacing and easy tapping but high settings and high spacing are the most farmable.
4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...
Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
I thought it was just the OD 9.67 that made it a bitch to get good accuracy on. Got any examples?ReynBolt wrote:
Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
Also, I'm wondering how much pp daidai genome would give if it had been OD 7 + DT instead of OD 8.
current pp thingy doesn't take into account patterns (directions) at all, just the length/speed of jumpsReynBolt wrote:
Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
troll patterns are not underrated, they are not rated at all, nor are easy patterns
acc = ppReynBolt wrote:
4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...
Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
current pp thing doesn't take into account tapping patterns (complex/hard to tap or very simple) at all, so the easy ones to acc will seem easier ppwise
the stars do what they are meant to, it's just the system not taking into account some big (subjective) parts of what makes stuff difficult
please correct me if i'm wrong
It isn't about maps being overrated with DT.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
I find all this fine.jaaakb wrote:
current pp thingy doesn't take into account patterns (directions) at all, just the length/speed of jumpsReynBolt wrote:
Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
troll patterns are not underrated, they are not rated at all, nor are easy patternsacc = ppReynBolt wrote:
4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...
Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
current pp thing doesn't take into account tapping patterns (complex/hard to tap or very simple) at all, so the easy ones to acc will seem easier ppwise
the stars do what they are meant to, it's just the system not taking into account some big (subjective) parts of what makes stuff difficult
please correct me if i'm wrong
That was why I only evaluated DT maps, there are UNDERRATED DT maps aswell. But lots of people rather complaining "play DT for pp" instead of "play free accuracy maps for pp". By free accuracy maps I mean all these maps that anyone can optain high accuracy with not to much effort, that anyone farms because they're free accuracy = free pp (regardless of mod that you're using). And it's a fact that most of these free accuracy maps are DT ones, but it's a lie that ANY is DT, but it's a true fact that some free pp no mod maps with HR over them aren't that free pp, similar to Our Stolen Theory - United (L.A.O.S Remix) that many farms with no mod but when HR is added it doesn't seem to me a farm map.Endaris wrote:
It isn't about maps being overrated with DT.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
United no mod = pp for hungreds of people
United + HR = pp for about 20 players in the top #50's
@ReynBolt
The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.
It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)
Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.
Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.
It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)
Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.
Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
Hero is frustrating to play because OD 8 + DT instead of OD7.
Well yes. The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps, that sometimes are few seconds lenght. I've mentionated that case earlier in the 153'th page, you can look at it here and finding the post. I personally think that the star system needs ton consider both highest star level and average star level and pp being considered by the average one. But it's very known that these map with too many stars wth difficulty peaks are giving more pp than intended because the actual system calculates these map likely if the WHOLE MAP is as HARD as HARDEST parts are, even if only a really small fraction (several seconds on some case) of the map have that real difficulty.Mikakage wrote:
@ReynBolt
The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.
It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)
Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.
Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
But in the case showed in the earlier post of mine, we have a case of a consistent map that is being better rated againist an inconsistent one that is known from being badass. Shounen radio neu [gold] isn't completely consistent, but its peaks of difficulty aren't based in too small periods of time ... instead a considerable fraction of the map is as hard as most dificult parts. I can't really explain this well at all, it's not simple to me .-.
[Now to general topic]
And yes, I can't FC koikogokoro or Dai Dai genome DT's, but still too many people find these maps too easy because these patterns are clean and they are focused at only aiming and tapping clean patterns (no tricky pauses nor change of timming or radical changes at the osng) and I personally find unfair that a group of players that can't do these maps get a grave handicap in ranking just because not being capable to FC THREE maps (the 2 insanes of koigokoro and Daidai genome) that are known to give much pp. I just want that this game becomes "be free to rank anything you want" instead of seing the existance of many "THIS IS A MUST TO HAVE MAP"
Be noticed that it's true that there are people that ranks over 100 positions at 1200-2000th only with Genome FC... Why a single map has to be THAT important? please no q-q
That's bullshit.ReynBolt wrote:
The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
it's not 100% accurate, but it's not bullshit eitherEndaris wrote:
That's bullshit.ReynBolt wrote:
The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
daidai has that one fullscreen triangle pattern somewhere halfway through the map and the ending has a difficulty spike, other than that it's not that hard. koigokoro has about the same difficulty throughout the map i agree. it's just that the difficulty comes from something that most people dont actually find all that difficult.Endaris wrote:
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
no, if a map is 6 stars purely because of, say, 1 star pattern, while otherwise it's not even 4 stars, then all you have to do is get lucky on the star pattern to get the pp for a 6 star map. if the map is 6 stars throughout the whole thing you just can't do that.Endaris wrote:
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
you just argued against yourself here, you're telling the other person they are right. it's not about the flatness of a map, it's about how high it's peak is.Endaris wrote:
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
No.
Because a map with a peak at the very beginning or the very end is still flat compared to a map with a peak in the middle.
It yields a psychological advantage if it's flat and you can also get more pp without even completing the pattern successfully.
Because a map with a peak at the very beginning or the very end is still flat compared to a map with a peak in the middle.
It yields a psychological advantage if it's flat and you can also get more pp without even completing the pattern successfully.
Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.
I think it's the same pattern as in the beginning of seiken nante iranai in the lower right.
I think it's the same pattern as in the beginning of seiken nante iranai in the lower right.
Kheldragar wrote:
Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.
I think it's the same pattern as in the beginning of seiken nante iranai in the lower right.
Or maybe they just don't want to FC them because they hate the maps. Although, doing this prevents them from being allowed to bitch about being ranked lower than people who they are better than. Not that they would anyway, since they wouldn't care about other peoples rank if they don't even care about their own.
Less-skilled players who actually CAN'T get the pp tend to be the ones that complain about pp maps the most.
There shouldn't be a select few maps you should have play to compete rank-wise if you don't want to be underranked, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy and have your 'skill' gauged accurately by pp, but it isn't so.
I can't FC daidai or Koigokoro but I don't care because I can call people who have them on their top ranks overranked trash
yes it's their fault the maps are overweighted, flawless logic.Mahoganytooth wrote:
I can't FC daidai or Koigokoro but I don't care because I can call people who have them on their top ranks overranked trash
no, its their fault they're overranked
wait, I thought that was sarcasm
It was
But I was also slightly serious
Sometimes I don't even know
But I was also slightly serious
Sometimes I don't even know
I'm not sure, but I'm seing hungreds of players that their only goal is playing for pp, not about becoming as good at many possible maps nor playing these songs that they like. What about playing harder or tricky maps and doing them FC or just playing to see general improvement on any kind of map and not just on pp ones?
And it's not a coinsidence that maps that are overrated at pp are played the most frequent and the least pp efficent the most avoided maps. It's a fact, good players on the #50's are being beaten by weaker but higher ranked players just because these are more interested at extracting each possible pp, not because they're really better at all.
What really bothers me? that I spend lots of efforts FCing an hard map to then play later an easier map with less effort but gaining more pp... I just complain because I don't like how things are going (whatever IS THAT REASSON, please it's just a personal tought). I have profs of some pp's system inefficency, I'm not lying but maybe I'm focusing these proofs for personal interest and not acting for general interest like I did in earlier posts.
And it's not a coinsidence that maps that are overrated at pp are played the most frequent and the least pp efficent the most avoided maps. It's a fact, good players on the #50's are being beaten by weaker but higher ranked players just because these are more interested at extracting each possible pp, not because they're really better at all.
What really bothers me? that I spend lots of efforts FCing an hard map to then play later an easier map with less effort but gaining more pp... I just complain because I don't like how things are going (whatever IS THAT REASSON, please it's just a personal tought). I have profs of some pp's system inefficency, I'm not lying but maybe I'm focusing these proofs for personal interest and not acting for general interest like I did in earlier posts.
Lots of players have Daidai Genome as one of their top performances worth around 270 pp with an A rank because of the last seconds of the map, specially the three triples followed by some weird angled jumps. the start of the choruses are also significantly harder than the others parts in the map, but not even close to the final pattern. Koigokoro is constant.Endaris wrote:
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
I think I get what you're saying here. A map being constant is better considering it only has very sparse spikes, if it gets lots of spikes the map becomes significantly harder.Endaris wrote:
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
But if you're talking about not having any spikes at all, nah. It's harder.
Kheldragar wrote:
Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.
If the map pool from where you can farm isn't limited this is what will happen, it's the best pick optimal maps if they want to increase rank. One should also assume that everyone will go to these maps instead of bitching about honor or some other bullshit and refusing to play these.Riince wrote:
Or maybe they just don't want to FC them because they hate the maps. Although, doing this prevents them from being allowed to bitch about being ranked lower than people who they are better than. Not that they would anyway, since they wouldn't care about other peoples rank if they don't even care about their own.
But of course, each player should play their strong points. Daidai Genome is an aim map, you will farm in it if this is your best aspect. Speed players should go to maps like Midnight Siege, and Accuracy players can play long maps with constant but easy difficulty as M@sterpiece (or for no mod, some of the one many DnB maps around 5.5 stars with OD 9).
The problem is that the system gauges three different skills: Aim, Speed and Accuracy. We cannot see how much of it each player have like the old tp site.Riince wrote:
There shouldn't be a select few maps you should have play to compete rank-wise if you don't want to be underranked, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy and have your 'skill' gauged accurately by pp, but it isn't so.
A player might be worse than an player bellow him in two aspects but still have a higher ranking because his one best aspect is rated higher than the other two from the second player.
Here, the problem is with the map pool size (hundreds of thousands of maps) and the dominating mapping style.
I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...Endaris wrote:
That's bullshit.ReynBolt wrote:
The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
Would like to clarify that the shorter the spikes are, the more farmable is. I find that some maps with their peaks are rightly judged likely hvick225 Sagara Kokoro - Hoshizora no Ima [S.S] because the peak stands enough time to require constancy on skill and not about pure luck on a random play ... meanwhile I find FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - a way too overrated because the peaks stands too low time and seems very tryhardable and sucess ratio seems to be too high for a 500 pp play map.uberpancake wrote:
I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...
About remote control... well... it's a weird case of OD10.33 DT play. If OD10 is too strong at really high values of accuracy then OD10.33 should be even stronger. I don't find that map broken on pp at all because the spacing that it has on its peaks is enough to make it not a mere "free accuracy map" likely we see on many other DT maps, but because it has 3-4 pikes of too low length seems that if you're somehow lucky you can obtain good pp from a good random play even at not being consistent on all the plays.
Resuming...
peaks of difficulty = tryhardable
Retrying for a lucky rank = worth on pp
^ this can be aplied at both cases FC or high accuracy.
The more peaks the less tryhardable/farmable is
My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
I understand why this is currently the case (only one score can be scored, and it prioritizes score over PP value understandably), but it should not be that hard to adjust the unique constraint from (player, map) to something like (player, map, pp_score) where pp_score is a boolean/tinyint that is true if the score has a lower score but higher pp value than your previous best.
Either that or find some way to merge score and PP together by adjusting the PP system or by adjusting the score system, or some combination of both.
I understand why this is currently the case (only one score can be scored, and it prioritizes score over PP value understandably), but it should not be that hard to adjust the unique constraint from (player, map) to something like (player, map, pp_score) where pp_score is a boolean/tinyint that is true if the score has a lower score but higher pp value than your previous best.
Either that or find some way to merge score and PP together by adjusting the PP system or by adjusting the score system, or some combination of both.
Don't worry man, I heard this is going to be fixed in some big update down the line.Tysonzero wrote:
My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
E m i
Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.Khelly wrote:
Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
I think I asked him on his ask fm a few months ago and he said something about not doing both because only keeping the highest pp score requires more storage of scores or something.jesus1412 wrote:
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.Khelly wrote:
Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
that would be a much rarer scenario than losing pp, which is an everyday thing to some people and something most people always take into consideration before playing a map with different mods, but it doesn't have to be..silmarilen wrote:
actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
i agree with that actually. i also agree with that highest pp should be saved and not highest score, but those are tom's words.
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.[Lucky] wrote:
I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner.
I don't think he was an idiot, SO is worth as 95% pp but only uses half of score, meaning you can improve it easly later on when playing better.Endaris wrote:
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.[Lucky] wrote:
I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner.
It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
More importantly, why does anyone care about pp if they're using nofail? Or Spun out? Using those mods is like saying hey, this map is too hard for me to play well. If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.Khelly wrote:
It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
depends heavily on the player..otoed1 wrote:
There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
My top ranks would like a word.otoed1 wrote:
If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.Khelly wrote:
It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
I thought you were Riince, stop it.
Your 97% key to my heart is nice though. Fuck the ending.
Your 97% key to my heart is nice though. Fuck the ending.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?jesus1412 wrote:
My top ranks would like a word.
how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?I might assume that actual "throw stream here, throw stream there" fast/superfast bpm stream everywhere maps (it's can be called a meta already since more and more what i see - map without stream doesn't exist) and not everyone have consistency to play this.
Jesus is still godlike player so sush :3
Nobody becomes good without good accuracyotoed1 wrote:
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?jesus1412 wrote:
My top ranks would like a word.
When you're trying to FC a map full of 280 BPM deathstreams, it's easy to give absolutely 0 fucks about accuracy. Kind of like Cookiezi's first score on remote control which was 92% or so.
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.Khelly wrote:
How so?Purple wrote:
Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
Perhaps he's like me and gets gud accuracy on things that are relatively easier and then just gets 92-95% fcs on the harder things because we're not that great at acc in actuality?Mikakage wrote:
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
for someone of his skill level,that accuracy on muteki is shit. i got fewer 100s back in 2013Mikakage wrote:
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.Khelly wrote:
How so?
https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544