Tom pls why would you do this to us.
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Nice post count Jesus. Well memed, I know.
With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
Try 64 and 128 notes?
Would been a good idea about considering stream lenght by time instead amount of circles at all. Also both cases of very long streams and really fast stacks (355 bpm likely seen at xi - Breakthrough Atmosphere +DT because streams of 1/6 at 237 bpm) are both cases underrated. Seems that the meta for pp is finding a map full of "streams" 5-9 circles frequently, not complicated stream shape (mainly lineally and fluided ones) with higher spacing between circle and OD equal or over to OD8. Maps with streams of +30 circles and over 4 seconds of tapping aren't that seen in people's best performance, mainly because they're highly underrated compared to easier maps that can give more pp for less effort.
I find confusing that on some cases a 5.1 stars map likely Tristam & Braken - Frame of Mind [Chill] can give more pp than maps with 5.48 stars likely Shounen Radio - neu [Gold]...
Facts to consider
1.- Shounen radio has 821 elements, Tristam has 1042 elements
2.- Shounen radio is OD7, Tristam is OD8
3.- Tristam is much more consistent than Shounen radio is
4.- General ranking on top 50's talks by itself.
Personal tought: Tristam [Chill] is being highly farmed because it gives a way too much pp from accuracy value, instead shounen radio [gold] is avoided due it needs strong constancy at fingers on some parts and being massively underewarded because it's worth as very low accuracy on pp.
What I want to highlight from this?
1.- There should been a star system from "average star level" and "hardest star level", this would allow people to find maps to properly train constancy or instead going ahead for maps with high peaks of difficulty.
2.- General pp obtained from a map SHOULD be based on "average star level" and if this is worked finely, it should been balanced on both cases that requires or constancy or a nuke of skill on atleast a single part. This would take lots of effort, but looks promising.
3.- Accuracy is being overrated (mainly OD+8 with many circles). This makes people to avoid maps that they can't do with really good accuracy and instead they go for free accuracy = free pp maps. Needed of more tries to FC 95.50% Shounen Radio [gold] than to FC Tristam Frame of Mind [Chill] with 98.02% accuracy.
Preffered to not extend on too many topics at the same time, just mentioning one and describing another clearly.
I find confusing that on some cases a 5.1 stars map likely Tristam & Braken - Frame of Mind [Chill] can give more pp than maps with 5.48 stars likely Shounen Radio - neu [Gold]...
Facts to consider
1.- Shounen radio has 821 elements, Tristam has 1042 elements
2.- Shounen radio is OD7, Tristam is OD8
3.- Tristam is much more consistent than Shounen radio is
4.- General ranking on top 50's talks by itself.
Personal tought: Tristam [Chill] is being highly farmed because it gives a way too much pp from accuracy value, instead shounen radio [gold] is avoided due it needs strong constancy at fingers on some parts and being massively underewarded because it's worth as very low accuracy on pp.
What I want to highlight from this?
1.- There should been a star system from "average star level" and "hardest star level", this would allow people to find maps to properly train constancy or instead going ahead for maps with high peaks of difficulty.
2.- General pp obtained from a map SHOULD be based on "average star level" and if this is worked finely, it should been balanced on both cases that requires or constancy or a nuke of skill on atleast a single part. This would take lots of effort, but looks promising.
3.- Accuracy is being overrated (mainly OD+8 with many circles). This makes people to avoid maps that they can't do with really good accuracy and instead they go for free accuracy = free pp maps. Needed of more tries to FC 95.50% Shounen Radio [gold] than to FC Tristam Frame of Mind [Chill] with 98.02% accuracy.
Preffered to not extend on too many topics at the same time, just mentioning one and describing another clearly.
Good theory, could be the reason yeah.GhostFrog wrote:
With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
Will try some different numbers of notes later today when I have timeKheldragar wrote:
Try 64 and 128 notes?
Pretty interested for the results. Also, the pp vs. star rating thing DroidBass mentioned is legit. Some star ratings seem really off, and it still feels counterintuitive to me that a map of a certain SR would give less pp than a map of lower SR than the first.
This can happen often due to accuracy rating due to OD, length, etc, i'm trying to minimise that effect here thoughTess wrote:
it still feels counterintuitive to me that a map of a certain SR would give less pp than a map of lower SR than the first.
Topic Starter
This is probably the reason. In the graph you can see how the amount of BPM difference increases between each of these "steps". Those breakpoints are where the 32 note stream starts being completely contained within one less of these intervals.GhostFrog wrote:
With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
If you'd want to compare the difficulties of such streams I suggest you make a map at least 30 seconds long where you just repeat those streams with a short break inbetween. Sadly there could still be aliasing artifacts when the BPM and the time interval share common divisors, but they shouldn't be as bad.
The sudden knack at 300 BPM is by the way currently caused by a hard cap avoiding singularities in maps putting some hitobjects 1ms or even 0ms apart. I should probably make that higher now that some people actually start to pull off 300bpm scores.
you forgot 1 major thing.DroidBass wrote:
Facts to consider
1.- Shounen radio has 821 elements, Tristam has 1042 elements
2.- Shounen radio is OD7, Tristam is OD8
3.- Tristam is much more consistent than Shounen radio is
4.- General ranking on top 50's talks by itself.
tristam has 923 circles
shounen radio has 652 circles
sliders arent considered for acc, only for beatmap length.
so not only is tristam a higher od, it also has almost 300 circles more.
when aim/speed/acc get divided you will see that tristam most likely gives 30-40pp more in the acc part compared to shounen radio. while shounen radio will give more in the combined aim/speed part.
unfortunately pp cant tell how hard a map actually is to acc, it purely looks at od and amount of circles for that part afaik.
IIRC that's the main reason why HR often feels undervalued. If the map doesn't score high in aim or speed but is still hard to acc (like marathons) it won't give any decent pp below 99%
also because most people don't have high acc.
Thanks for the explanation, makes perfect sense nowTom94 wrote:
This is probably the reason. In the graph you can see how the amount of BPM difference increases between each of these "steps". Those breakpoints are where the 32 note stream starts being completely contained within one less of these intervals.GhostFrog wrote:
With so few notes, this could be another little quirk related to the fact that tom's difficulty algorithm breaks the map into short time intervals and chooses the highest strain from each. Or at least it did back in the days of tp. Probably still does.
If you'd want to compare the difficulties of such streams I suggest you make a map at least 30 seconds long where you just repeat those streams with a short break inbetween. Sadly there could still be aliasing artifacts when the BPM and the time interval share common divisors, but they shouldn't be as bad.
The sudden knack at 300 BPM is by the way currently caused by a hard cap avoiding singularities in maps putting some hitobjects 1ms or even 0ms apart. I should probably make that higher now that some people actually start to pull off 300bpm scores.
This, the reward curve for HR is incredibly steep so the only way it rewards you is if you get 99+% acc or if you're playing a 3+ minute map.Riince wrote:
also because most people don't have high acc.
Even 6 minute maps give little under 98.5% unless it's a map that's hard to FC.
ZenithPhantasm
Well, no.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
And I feel like Hidden aim pp should be 0 because its basically preference.
While it's true that maps can become easier to read with Hidden it's still a lot harder to maintain combo. Hidden is clearly my mostplayed mod and the amount of shitmisses I get with hidden compared to nomod on maps i can play very comfortably(99%+ nomod) is immense. I think the difference could get smaller once I get better but I don't think you'll ever be equally consistent when using hidden.
Playing with HD is like synchronised swimming. Either you love the shit out of it or it absolutely disgusts you. I'm in the latter group.
It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
ZenithPhantasm
It's not very subjective. It makes the object disappear before you have to hit it, so you have to memorise the location, and it makes it much harder to see stacked objects. This isn't subjective. There are very few people who can read HD better at AR9 who have not almost solely played HD and are not used to nomod.
You should know that this is an illness. They do it because they got so used to it that they started sucking when playing with approach circles. It's a similar phenomen to the "cant-play-below AR9.67"-people.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Whether it makes things harder is somewhat subjective. Ik people who cant go without slapping on HD mod.B1rd wrote:
It only gives too much pp at high AR. ar9 is where hidden give the proper amount of pp. And yes it does make things harder to read.
Endaris wrote:
You should know that this is an illness.
An illness like pokerus maybe AKA the opposite of a problem
Not being able to play maps without HD is definitely a problem. Kind of like people who can't read maps without HR. 
Nomod is the most basic form of osu gameplay. Anybody who can't play it has a huge gap in their skillset that needs to be addressed.
Also, from my personal experience--multiplayer and friend rankings (which I consider more representative of the 'average' osu player)--HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
Nomod is the most basic form of osu gameplay. Anybody who can't play it has a huge gap in their skillset that needs to be addressed.
Also, from my personal experience--multiplayer and friend rankings (which I consider more representative of the 'average' osu player)--HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.Barusamikosu wrote:
HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
I should be the master at HD now by your logic.HK_ wrote:
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.Barusamikosu wrote:
HD players tend to stick to maps that are easy with HD. All it takes is a bit of note density or complexity to ruin someone's sightread.
DeletedUser_4329079
There's no valid analogy between what zenny said and the pokerus. Go play some pokemon and find out the difference.Purple wrote:
Endaris wrote:
You should know that this is an illness.
An illness like pokerus maybe AKA the opposite of a problem
Entering fury-mode would be a more fitting pokemon-analogy
You sir deserve a long time silence on forum for spreading such a bullshit. I am curious why you are even able to write here, mods must be very, very patient to handle this. It's not a question from your side, you just made a completly incorrect statment.simply false statmentAnd its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
Ontopic:
By analyzing scores on many songs, i see that MANY are played simply DT+HD.
I feel lack of knowladge in one thing:
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Like...what the actual fuck are you on? I want some of it.HK_ wrote:
And its funny how most of HD players (excluding top players) dont understand that you improve at HD by simply NOT playing it and thus play it more and ruin their abillity to play without it.
You wont literally master it by not playing it but you will get better at it.Kheldragar wrote:
I should be the master at HD now by your logic.
And its something from my personal experience, zero guessing, so i dont really expect you to understand until you experience it.
I play with HD 99% of the time but I still find nomod easier
You cannot get better at something by not playing it.
You can at HD because it requires timing and aim (and memorisation but thats pretty irrelevant here) - something that comes with playing no mod. And being able to play more complex patterns with HD comes with being able to play even more complex patterns no mod.
But you can also improve your timing and aim by playing Hidden while also improving your memorization. What's more is that hidden will start to come to you more naturally because you're actually playing the damn mod.
That's like saying nomod is a good way to improve at Hard Rock. Sure, you're learning to aim and get accuracy better, but why the fuck aren't you just playing HR if you want to learn HR? They'll never be the same and experience playing WITH the mod is far more valuable for playing the mod than experience playing WITHOUT the mod.
That's like saying nomod is a good way to improve at Hard Rock. Sure, you're learning to aim and get accuracy better, but why the fuck aren't you just playing HR if you want to learn HR? They'll never be the same and experience playing WITH the mod is far more valuable for playing the mod than experience playing WITHOUT the mod.
You get better at HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
You get better with HD by simply playing no mod.
About FL...well i have no clue since i never played it.
And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slower) at once by playing no mod?
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
You get better with HD by simply playing no mod.
About FL...well i have no clue since i never played it.
And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slower) at once by playing no mod?
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
The better question is why even play with mods at all until you get high ranked enough to stop earning PP from nomod? Don't learn mods early, kids.HK_ wrote:
And my point is: WHY the heck would you limit yourself to a single mod by playing it if you can learn all of them (a bit slowe) at once by playing no mod?.
Please find me a ranked nomod AR10 OD10 CS5.2 mapHK_ wrote:
You get better with HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.
HR will always be better for learning HR
I doubt you're even on the level where playing HR actually gives you AR10 OD10 so you probably can't even speak from experience on this.
99% of active players don't actually play at a level where DT actually requires skill, and high BPM nomod is very different to high BPM DT maps. Contrast something like Image Material to something like SeveN DT.HK_ wrote:
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod.
Nothing at nomod will help you aim at circles that aren't there anymore. Play HD to learn HD, because there's nothing else in the game like HD.HK_ wrote:
You get better with HD by simply playing.
...no, they're vastly different in requirements. HD is the closest mod to being nomod.HK_ wrote:
After all HR/DT are just more difficult no mod.
Mahoganytooth wrote:
The better question is why even play with mods at all until you get high ranked enough to stop earning PP from nomod? Don't learn mods early, kids.
Kids you heard him.
Please find me a ranked nomod AR10 OD10 CS5.2 map
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/216979 Just wait for it (not quite CS5 but you have plenty of maps with it). And you can edit too, i never said it has to be ranked.
I doubt you're even on the level where playing HR actually gives you AR10 OD10 so you probably can't even speak from experience on this.
lol
high BPM nomod is very different to high BPM DT maps.
ask val0108
Nothing at nomod will help you aim at circles that aren't there anymore. Play HD to learn HD, because there's nothing else in the game like HD.
No comment
...no, they're vastly different in requirements. HD is the closest mod to being nomod.
At AR/OD/CS/HP10 HR does literally nothing so thats 50% wrong.
Edit BPM (not in editor -_-) to one you get with DT and thats...well...DT without DT so now you are 100% wrong.
You get better at HR with no mod by playing higher AR/CS/OD.WTB reasonable amount of AR10, OD9.8, HP10, CS5.2 maps NOMOD.
"Hard Rock (named after the hardest difficulty of the DS game Elite Beat Agents) decreases hit circle size by 1 tick while increasing the overall difficulty, approach rate, and the HP drain by 2 or 3 ticks of their original value up to a maximum of 10. The difference in AR is often hard to notice except when used on maps with an original AR of 7 or greater, as it will push the AR to the maximum value of 10. Hard Rock can be a very difficult mod (especially on insane maps) as it not only demands higher cursor accuracy, it also requires the ability to read lightning-fast approach circles. " - Osu!Wiki
You get better with DT by playing faster maps and higher BPM no mod."Double Time increases the overall beatmap's speed to 150% of the original, reducing the length of the song by 33%. This might be considered deceptive because the BPM is not actually doubled, despite being called "Double Time". The method used to increase the speed doesn't increase the pitch of the song, but can make it sound "muddy".
Because the song is sped up, the approach rate also increases, which often makes it quite difficult when paired with Hard Rock. " - Osu!Wiki
Additionaly:
AR: " Double Time: The AR value doesn't change, but the 1.5x play speed causes circles to stay on screen 33% shorter. " (Osu!Wiki), https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/File:ARTable.png
OD: "Double Time: The OD value doesn't change, but the 1.5x play speed causes hit windows to be 33% shorter. " (Osu!Wiki) https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/File:ODTable.png
That's all what i say about pure facts and diffrence betwin nomod and this 2 mods. In a way where you do not deny this.