Zak wrote:

I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Super Shock] wrote:

The only thing I what please is too Fix the top Rangs on Profile

[Super Shock] wrote:

The only thing I what please is too Fix the top Rangs on Profile

[Super Shock] wrote:

I know that my english is bad so I have something misspelled

P. S. I work with googel OK <. <

Sabi wrote:

I don't see what is the issue with PP and Ranking, In every game there always is a Ranking System to motivate yourself to get better, and believe me the only reason why i got pp/rank in the first place was to prove myself good, rank 180 looks alot better than rank 1000 in my eyes, and it helps to let people know what is your skill set and what's your overall progression, if you remove ranking you will most likely remove OWC and CTB WC, there will be no point, and yes in this game there always is Competitiveness no matter how you look at it, theres a REASON why it says "#1" In Multi



EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_game Also quote directly from here

"The players might be independent opponents, formed into teams or be just a single team pitted against the game."

^OPPONENTS "someone who competes against or fights another in a contest, game, or argument; a rival or adversary." So please stop

Haron wrote:

I want peppy do that PPv2 depends on SPINNERS!!! #1 in "your" mod - much more pp.
Bad english, yea...

DeathXHunter wrote:

No.

Haron wrote:

I want peppy do that PPv2 depends on SPINNERS!!! #1 in "your" mod - much more pp.
Bad english, yea...

TenguKing9 wrote:

I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:

1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.

TenguKing9 wrote:

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.

alienflybot wrote:

FlashLight (FL) - In my opinion this would be the mod that gives the least pp. FL tests player's memorization, which is just acting the same thing as No-Mod does, but with some black areas around the ryuuta. I think using FL just only need memorization, which should not worth that many pp.

About FL,I don't care,it's shit anyways.

CLSW wrote:

I think setting the players' most frequency droplet misses as a point criteria is better.
Some maps are easy, but some maps (especially maps in 2008~2009s, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2)are hard to SS.

Users' frequency 　 Percent of pp 　 Droplet misses
50%(the most) 　　 10% 　 　　　　 3
20% 　　 　　　 　 13% 　　　　　　　 2
10% 　　　　　　 20% 　　　　　　　　 1
2% 　　 　　　　 30% 　　　　　　　　 0

Like this, If you can't understand I'm sorry for poor language.

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     F                   10%                  5
     E                   15%                  4
     D                   30%                  3
     C                   25%                  2
     B                   15%                  1
     A                    5%                  0

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     E                   10%                  5
     D                   15%                  4
     C                   30%                  3
     B                   25%                  2
     A                   20%                  1

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     F                   10%                  5
     E                   15%                  4
     D                   30%                  3
     C                   25%                  2
     B                   15%                  1
     A                    5%                  0

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     E                   10%                  5
     D                   15%                  4
     C                   30%                  3
     B                   25%                  2
     A                   20%                  1

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     F                   10%                  5
     E                   15%                  4
     D                   30%                  3
     C                   25%                  2
     B                   15%                  1
     A                    5%                  0

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     F                   30%                  5
     E                   40%                  4
     D                   25%                  3
     C                    4%                  2
     B                    0%                  1
     A                    1%                  0

-Kurisu- wrote:

If I understand correctly you are calculating a maximum droplet pp contribution based on the map's difficulty. Then a player will get a higher fraction of that if it's more difficult to catch all of the droplets on that map.

-Kurisu- wrote:

Also that droplet contrib would have less weight if everyone easily catches all of the droplets? This would fix most of the PF SS farming maps on ctb I think.

-Kurisu- wrote:

What about the possibility where the map has few/no droplets and is still difficult to FC (maybe these https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=119021&m=2, https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=92780&m=2)? Would that still punish a player too much if they FC but miss a droplet? Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your formula, if it accounts for this that would be great (I suck at math can anyone offer feedback also...)

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     D                   10%                  3
     C                   20%                  2
     B                   40%                  1
     A                   30%                  0

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     D                   10%                  3
     C                   70%                  2
     B                   15%                  1
     A                   5%                   0

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     H                  5%                    7
     G                  5%                    6
     F                  10%                   5
     E                  5%                    4
     D                  10%                   3
     C                  15%                   2
     B                  20%                   1
     A                  30%                   0

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     H                  5%                  7
     G                  10%                 6
     F                  15%                 5
     E                  30%                 4
     D                  20%                 3
     C                  10%                 2
     B                  5%                  1
     A                  5%                  0

Loctav wrote:

Please keep the discussion structured. If you are incapable to contribute in a constructive manner, your posts will be removed and penalities will be given out.

Zak wrote:

Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...

ZiRoX wrote:

If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.

Amir wrote:

ZiRoX wrote:

If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.

isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.

Kurokami wrote:

Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?

Tenshichan wrote:

Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough.

Kurokami wrote:

But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly.

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy.

Kurokami wrote:

BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula[...]

Kurokami wrote:

[...]but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:

1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc

Zak wrote:

I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps.

Kurokami wrote:

Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly?

Kurokami wrote:

Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS?

Kurokami wrote:

Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?

Kurokami wrote:

I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.

Kurokami wrote:

Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).

Kurokami wrote:

Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*

The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o

- Rii - wrote:

sometimes DT is even much harder than HR

Bu Puppet wrote:

- Rii - wrote:

sometimes DT is even much harder than HR

^ Exactly

when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder

UsUTSuki wrote:

when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder

1. AR<=7: HD makes the map way harder to play and should deserve a significant bonus, sadly most AR<=7 maps are easy maps (especially converted ones).
2. AR=8: HD start to be less annoying on most maps. It still deserve a significant bonus on hardest AR=8 maps but at this point a huge amount of players can easily play AR=8 maps with HD.
3. AR=9: Most players will use HD on AR=9 maps cause it doesn't disturb them anymore, some players says that it actually help them to have HD in AR=9 maps. Most of those plays doesn't deserve any bonuses, however some AR=9 maps using complicated stream patterns would still be awarded by a bonus (the idea here is that HD on AR=9 helps a bit for huge jumps and make precise patterns like streams a bit more difficult)
4. AR>=10: I think only 10-20 players in the world plays AR>=10 without HD. A HUGE amount of players will say that it's easier to play AR>=10 with HD. I don't think any bonuses should be deserved for most of those HD plays (Actually a malus would fit better but I think it's a bad idea since it will screw the map rankings)

1. Most of FL plays are done in AR=8 mainly on stream maps. I don't know this mode well enough to say more about it.

1. AR<7: HR would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
2. AR=7: HR start to have a huge effect on many players, clearly deserve a bonus but nothing really huge since most of those maps are pretty easy.
3. AR>=8: Everything over this point should deserve a nice bonus depending on the map difficulty.

1. AR<=7: DT would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
2. AR=8: Here is the most complicated part. AR=8 maps with many 1/2-1/4 movements and/or really huge jumps and hyperdashes are most likely being harder with DT than with HR. However most AR=8 maps are still easier with DT than HR due to how they're mapped.
3. AR=9: I actually don't know any AR=9 map being easier with HR than DT, those FC are rare, even clearing AR=9 maps with DT is challenging for most players. The FC's should get a significant reward since it shows the player capability of reading high speed AR, memorization and ryuuta control.
4. AR>9: I don't know any player capable of reading this speed.

DeathXHunter wrote:

After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.

TheVileOne wrote:

I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .

Tom94 wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .

Referring to the "Chaos" diff:
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.

Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.

My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.


The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.

Rorona wrote:

IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.

Tom94 wrote:

Rorona wrote:

IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.

As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.

VelperK wrote:

Is this the same in standard?

And if so, how come?

Luna wrote:

I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2

Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?

Kitokofox wrote:

So, I ended up sharing this to Tom94. I want to see everyone's honest and unbiased opinions.

Kitokofox wrote:

Catch The Beat calculation methods

Catch The Beat is different in multiple ways, by how jumps work and how streams work, mostly. Playing on a 2D plane is a lot diffrent from standard osu!, along with the predefined movement speeds of the catcher. Thus, skill based calculations based on the limitations of Ryuuta among other things must be taken in account for.

There are some main factors which determine how difficult a map is for Catch The Beat:
Map Settings This goes back to the basics.
- Approach rate: This should be documented in difficulty by the actual drop rate of the fruits. This also gives AR10 the much needed skill requirement it actually calls for.
- Fruit Size: This is pretty obvious. The smaller the fruits, the harder they are to catch accurately. Skill requirement is based on the field in which you can actually catch the fruit, rather than the size itself.
- Overall Difficulty: I don't know how this is handled in the map, but as far as I know it only affects the HP loss when missing. I don't think that applies too much to skill, but for players who can just barely pass a song, this would come into play.
- HP Drain Rate: Same as above, only comes into play for those barely making a map.
Beat Placement Factors based on the placement of sliders and circles themselves
- Movement: How much the catcher needs to move to catch the fruits. In stream maps like Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, this would become classified as less difficult since you don't have to click and simply inch the catcher, where in the system used for standard, it would be classified as difficult otherwise.
- Jumpiness: This is the general distance between beats, based on how fast the catcher must move. This also applied to sliders and their slider ticks. This also heightens more based on the general theta of jumps in a row (especially hyperdashes in a row) What I mean by theta of jumps in a row, as in a map with periodic jumps is probably more difficult than one with one part of it having multiple in a row (This sort of compares and contrasts between kinds of jumps and what kind of skill and perseverance is required to acquire a good score) Also, generally, faster hyperdashes are harder to chain off of, e.g. Can't Defeat Airman!.
- Speed: This is how fast the catcher needs to move around in succession. This would rate maps like val0108's Talent Shredder or With A Dance Number as high skill examples for this sector, mainly because of how fast the catcher needs to switch one direction to another and how fast of fingers the player needs.
- Long jumps: Originally pixel jumps, these are jumps that are enough for the catcher to reach with the new hyperdash system, but still require precision placement to catch, as well as timing. An example can be seen in Wild Eyes [JAMES DIFFICULTY!!!] As it has long but viable jumps.
Mode Specifics and Other Stuff
- Mode Specific Maps: Don't need to be buffed. They are probably already difficult as it is with the algorithm that's in place. Plus, it was set this way to entice players to play those maps. This pp system focuses on the player's skill, and tries to measure the skill needed for each beatmap, so making bonuses of that sort is incorrect to ranking..
- Fruits before and after spinners: The time before spinners and after spinners doesn't need to be checked because of how bananas aren't necessary to a full combo.
- Accuracy: In general, accuracy is easier to come by in Catch The Beat, and as such, changes may be made accordingly.

Tom94 wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .

Referring to the "Chaos" diff:
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.

Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.

My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.


The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.

-Ryuujii- wrote:

Why can't you guys just be patient lol xD

alienflybot wrote:

IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.

VelperK wrote:

Seph wrote:

I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.

-Ryuujii- wrote:

Seph wrote:

I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.

So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..

petiskacang wrote:

priority seems more legit this time lol

why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)

Then another hard

pls

Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter

best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.

-PM- wrote:

There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.

Zak wrote:

This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD

[Super Shock] wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD

How can DakkyChan rang 15....

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD

119410501 wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD

do you even ask

119410501 wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD

do you even ask

[Super Shock] wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD

How can DakkyChan rang 13....

Kitokofox wrote:

FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)

FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.

It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.

Minky wrote:

to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.

although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries

it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.

Tom94 wrote:

Zak wrote:

This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.

Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all.

Seph wrote:

Well you really can't change the fact that this version of pp still counts map hoarding though.