How tp works for standard: http://osutp.net/info, the difficulty is calculated by an algorithm.Amir wrote:
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.ZiRoX wrote:
If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly? Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS? This kind of change is not really has effect at Standard since most good players can handle it easily, but in CtB the map difficulty is a bit lower tho catching droplet sometimes really hard even w/o mod. And in CtB one droplet is only count 10 point step asside from the max combo since it has no effect on it. That 10 point really worth that kind of punishment? Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.Kurokami wrote:
Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough. But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly. Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy. BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:Tenshichan wrote:
Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.
1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc
And maybe that "extra" point can be removed if this is the player is new at that level.
Well this is just a small example, but I think this can be fair enough to all players. I hope its clear enough since I'm kinda tired today. orz
I think the difficulty of the map isn't relevant when it comes to SS or no SS. For example this map: *click*. It is easy to FC even with HD DT, but it is damn hard to get an SS on, as you can see, no one has it actually with HD DT or HD HR. So if someone does the only SS with HD DT, he will automatically get more pp from it than someone who has maybe catched 15 bananas more, because it is obviously way harder to do the SS rank here than getting a good spin.Kurokami wrote:
Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough.
I agree, thats why it should be clearly checked how many players SS'd a certain difficulty with this set of mods. So if there are only 4 of 25 players with SS you will still get a decent bonus for SS. Simple.Kurokami wrote:
But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly.
When there will be 50 players with SS, then SS should clearly not be relevant, but only with the same mod usage that is. For example, we have a mapset, where #1-#4 are HD DT records and the rest are all Hidden SS. If for example #3 managed to do a HD DT SS, he should get a small reward for it, even though there are many SS records with only Hidden mod, so that he maybe gets the same pp amount out of it as #1 with no SS.Kurokami wrote:
Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy.
I don't get it. If a newer player gets a Hidden SS on a hard map, he will certainly get more pp out of it than someone who can do it with ease. Why should a #100 player complain that a #2500 player got more pp for an SS than him. It is obvious that he would get more pp out of it because of his rank, and slowly decreased that amount when he climbs up the ranks.Kurokami wrote:
BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula[...]
Agree, but you are contradicting yourself here.Kurokami wrote:
[...]but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:
1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc
Edit: Zirox formula is actually pretty solid. The only problem I see there is to implement it.
*deleted content*
Forgot everything, I'm tired. I will read it trough once again with a clear head then answer to your post.
Forgot everything, I'm tired. I will read it trough once again with a clear head then answer to your post.
I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps. Take this for example, there isn't a single HD SS so if someone ends up doing it they should receive a bonus for being able to. Now i'm not saying people should get large bonuses or anything but I think maybe getting a extra few pp as a bonus for doing better than most is better than punishing everyone who misses droplets.
A Hidden SS is the maximum amount of "droplet pp" you can gain from a Hidden FC on a map. If you miss a droplet, you will only get a certain percentage of that amount. Still, this "droplet pp" needs to be weighted with the spins and the number of SS ranks with the selected (difficulty increasing) mod(s). So if you FC a hard map with SS, while only 5 other people have SS with the same mod, you will get a certain "bonus". This can be counted on every map, while hard maps automatically give you this kind of "bonus". If you miss a droplet on a map with no Hidden SS, you will still get good pp out of it, but not the maximum "droplet pp".Zak wrote:
I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps.
Have you read my posts completely? It's not meant to apply to overall pp. Think of it as a bonus that decreases with droplet misses. Also, Zak's POV (increasing bonus for better accuracy) can work well. Also, I said there are some values that are just a random try. I made this (http://puu.sh/6SdOh) for you to play. If you think it's too harsh, try using a higher LL value and/or a lower DF value. Also, you can see how a bigger number of droplets makes the thing less harsh (change TD for this) and how the most influential part is how you did compared to other players (changing AF)Kurokami wrote:
Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly?
What I've played or not is really out of discussion. But, FYI, yes.Kurokami wrote:
Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS?
Then let's keep with ppv1, where the pp was based on the rank you got on the map.Kurokami wrote:
Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
It's just an idea about how to handle a specific part of CTB.Kurokami wrote:
I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
They can be rewarded equally. And again, I repeat, my formula is based on a lot of assumptions. One really important point is how to determine MaxPP. Obviously, some maps are harder to SS and the reward for SSing them should be higher and so, MaxPP should be higher. Considering how tp works for standard, if there was something related to Accuracy, one could set MaxPP to be a percentage of this "Accuracy Difficulty Value". As tp re-calculates these values for mod plays, a HD play will have a higher value of Accuracy and MaxPP would be higher for a play with HD. So it is possible for a no-mod SS and a Hidden S to be equally (or similarly) rewared.Kurokami wrote:
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
We'll have to wait on Tom94 for further details.Kurokami wrote:
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
What was a huge flaw in the PP system was shared top ranks with HD, that would reward you with tons of pp. SS shouldn't be worth as much as it was before. Just my thoughts on it.
^ Exactly- Rii - wrote:
sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
when The map is = AR10 but under its not HarderBu Puppet wrote:
^ Exactly- Rii - wrote:
sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harderdt+ar8 and up is hard and more difficult than hr sometimes
Just dropping in to say that a map shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to award pp. It needs to still allow pp for players of all skill levels and not only the ones who can play with hardrock.
Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
Didn't really wanted to post here, but some posts here are missleading or not clear, so about modifiers in CtB:
In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)
- Hidden:
I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.
My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.
Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)
- Hidden:
- AR<=7: HD makes the map way harder to play and should deserve a significant bonus, sadly most AR<=7 maps are easy maps (especially converted ones).
- AR=8: HD start to be less annoying on most maps. It still deserve a significant bonus on hardest AR=8 maps but at this point a huge amount of players can easily play AR=8 maps with HD.
- AR=9: Most players will use HD on AR=9 maps cause it doesn't disturb them anymore, some players says that it actually help them to have HD in AR=9 maps. Most of those plays doesn't deserve any bonuses, however some AR=9 maps using complicated stream patterns would still be awarded by a bonus (the idea here is that HD on AR=9 helps a bit for huge jumps and make precise patterns like streams a bit more difficult)
- AR>=10: I think only 10-20 players in the world plays AR>=10 without HD. A HUGE amount of players will say that it's easier to play AR>=10 with HD. I don't think any bonuses should be deserved for most of those HD plays (Actually a malus would fit better but I think it's a bad idea since it will screw the map rankings)
- Most of FL plays are done in AR=8 mainly on stream maps. I don't know this mode well enough to say more about it.
- AR<7: HR would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR=7: HR start to have a huge effect on many players, clearly deserve a bonus but nothing really huge since most of those maps are pretty easy.
- AR>=8: Everything over this point should deserve a nice bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR<=7: DT would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR=8: Here is the most complicated part. AR=8 maps with many 1/2-1/4 movements and/or really huge jumps and hyperdashes are most likely being harder with DT than with HR. However most AR=8 maps are still easier with DT than HR due to how they're mapped.
- AR=9: I actually don't know any AR=9 map being easier with HR than DT, those FC are rare, even clearing AR=9 maps with DT is challenging for most players. The FC's should get a significant reward since it shows the player capability of reading high speed AR, memorization and ryuuta control.
- AR>9: I don't know any player capable of reading this speed.
I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.
My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.
Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
I use hidden, because it removes some of the clutter from the screen. I have trained myself to stare at the top half of the screen instead of the bottom half. It allows me to react quicker. It isn't by any means a cure all solution for all fast maps. I think this part is determined by skill level. When we can read the notes faster, then we can tackle faster patterns. When the patterns reach your skill boundary then hidden becomes much harder.
I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.
Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.
Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
+1DeathXHunter wrote:
After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.
You were right
Topic Starter
Hey everyone, I've got an initial iteration of the algorithm to show. Please remember to tell me which version you are talking about when giving feedback. Also please let me know which tuning seems the best to you. 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 3emc#gid=1
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 3emc#gid=1
"1.5 direction with converts" seems to actually work the best imo. But hard to say, there's so many maps.
Also some maps seems to get overrated on all versions, like "Can't Defeat Airman [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]" and "Kokou no Sousei [Collab]".
Also some maps seems to get overrated on all versions, like "Can't Defeat Airman [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]" and "Kokou no Sousei [Collab]".
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
Topic Starter
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.Tom94 wrote:
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
Topic Starter
As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.Rorona wrote:
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2
Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2
Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
Is this the same in standard?Tom94 wrote:
As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.Rorona wrote:
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
And if so, how come?
Topic Starter
Yeah, it is the same in standard. Mainly because it doesn't really connect well with something like "aim" or "speed". Secondly there are many varying opinions - some people saying AR10 would be easier than 9 and others telling me the opposite.VelperK wrote:
Is this the same in standard?
And if so, how come?
It is factored in for pp calculations, so don't worry about that part.
Yes, they're hard.Luna wrote:
I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2
Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
Pretty sure I gave this to Tom94 earlier. I hope this better explains my full intent of CtB and it's performance point calculation.Kitokofox wrote:
So, I ended up sharing this to Tom94. I want to see everyone's honest and unbiased opinions.Kitokofox wrote:
Catch The Beat calculation methods
Catch The Beat is different in multiple ways, by how jumps work and how streams work, mostly. Playing on a 2D plane is a lot diffrent from standard osu!, along with the predefined movement speeds of the catcher. Thus, skill based calculations based on the limitations of Ryuuta among other things must be taken in account for.
There are some main factors which determine how difficult a map is for Catch The Beat:
Map Settings This goes back to the basics.
- Approach rate: This should be documented in difficulty by the actual drop rate of the fruits. This also gives AR10 the much needed skill requirement it actually calls for.
- Fruit Size: This is pretty obvious. The smaller the fruits, the harder they are to catch accurately. Skill requirement is based on the field in which you can actually catch the fruit, rather than the size itself.
- Overall Difficulty: I don't know how this is handled in the map, but as far as I know it only affects the HP loss when missing. I don't think that applies too much to skill, but for players who can just barely pass a song, this would come into play.
- HP Drain Rate: Same as above, only comes into play for those barely making a map.
Beat Placement Factors based on the placement of sliders and circles themselves
- Movement: How much the catcher needs to move to catch the fruits. In stream maps like Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, this would become classified as less difficult since you don't have to click and simply inch the catcher, where in the system used for standard, it would be classified as difficult otherwise.
- Jumpiness: This is the general distance between beats, based on how fast the catcher must move. This also applied to sliders and their slider ticks. This also heightens more based on the general theta of jumps in a row (especially hyperdashes in a row) What I mean by theta of jumps in a row, as in a map with periodic jumps is probably more difficult than one with one part of it having multiple in a row (This sort of compares and contrasts between kinds of jumps and what kind of skill and perseverance is required to acquire a good score) Also, generally, faster hyperdashes are harder to chain off of, e.g. Can't Defeat Airman!.
- Speed: This is how fast the catcher needs to move around in succession. This would rate maps like val0108's Talent Shredder or With A Dance Number as high skill examples for this sector, mainly because of how fast the catcher needs to switch one direction to another and how fast of fingers the player needs.
- Long jumps: Originally pixel jumps, these are jumps that are enough for the catcher to reach with the new hyperdash system, but still require precision placement to catch, as well as timing. An example can be seen in Wild Eyes [JAMES DIFFICULTY!!!] As it has long but viable jumps.
Mode Specifics and Other Stuff
- Mode Specific Maps: Don't need to be buffed. They are probably already difficult as it is with the algorithm that's in place. Plus, it was set this way to entice players to play those maps. This pp system focuses on the player's skill, and tries to measure the skill needed for each beatmap, so making bonuses of that sort is incorrect to ranking..
- Fruits before and after spinners: The time before spinners and after spinners doesn't need to be checked because of how bananas aren't necessary to a full combo.
- Accuracy: In general, accuracy is easier to come by in Catch The Beat, and as such, changes may be made accordingly.
what kind of proof do i have to provide to refute this argument?Tom94 wrote:
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
Both are pretty difficult. The extra AR makes it more difficult for me, but I guess it could be seen as easier or harder depending on how well trained your eyes are at reading fast scroll speeds. AR 9 gives you more time (might be a placebo effect) to read the objects. Sometimes it is the case that if you need to read the objects as they are scrolling, you are already taking too much time to hit them correctly.
There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.
Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.
Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
Just a bit curious but, is there any date estimated for this to be done?
IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.