delete the pp system
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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I think there should still be PP in the game. I like to see how i rank around the world. BUT, there should be a option to not show for those people who doesn't like PP or just want to play for fun. I like being competitive with people around me, so thats why i like PP and getting good rank on songs. There different people that play osu for a lots of reason (to have fun, to be #1). Just have a option that allows the people to show/not show their pp rankings.
Do you really want the old old ranking system back? Just playing ranked songs and get scores to be #1? Pretty sure all the people who wants to delete this pp rank want this style back. Which is really shitty of a ranking system...
Do you really want the old old ranking system back? Just playing ranked songs and get scores to be #1? Pretty sure all the people who wants to delete this pp rank want this style back. Which is really shitty of a ranking system...
Topic Starter
Nobody forces anyone of you to look at a ranking number. I don't see a reason to remove something, that a big portion of the player-base wants, that is not invasive at all towards anyone. 
I like the pp system, but certainly I prefer not having rank at all rather than having an unfair one.
It would be nice that for those people who doesn't want pp should at least HAVE A FREAKING REASON TOO... And not just the normal JUST PLAY FOR FUN reason!... At least say why you don't want it. Explain yourselves
lol the "Just play for fun" is actually a nice reasonIkillforpies wrote:
It would be nice that for those people who doesn't want pp should at least HAVE A FREAKING REASON TOO... And not just the normal JUST PLAY FOR FUN reason!... At least say why you don't want it. Explain yourselves
without pp you can concentrate easier on the top50 rankings of your favourite songs and maps only without thinking about the whole ranking, since your fav. song/map might be something way easier than Big Black shitmaps
If there were no pp, you would feel better when you rank high on your fav. maps.
The overall harder maps just decrease the worth you would gave the maps you were enjoying more and where you ranked better, because the hard ones give more pp
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I know there are a lot of contra arguments against that point but that is one reason.
Also that is not my real opinion about pp I just wanted to bring another point of view you asked for
DeletedUser_500696
In that case, isn't it just an issue with ppv1? If you don't want to be rewarded for an easy map, this can be fixed in ppv2 like standard. I personally like the confirmation of a genuinely good rank on a difficult map when I receive pp, but I agree that a less competitive system could allow players to enjoy themselves more and not take ctb so seriously.bomber34 wrote:
lol the "Just play for fun" is actually a nice reasonIkillforpies wrote:
It would be nice that for those people who doesn't want pp should at least HAVE A FREAKING REASON TOO... And not just the normal JUST PLAY FOR FUN reason!... At least say why you don't want it. Explain yourselves
without pp you can concentrate easier on the top50 rankings of your favourite songs and maps only without thinking about the whole ranking, since your fav. song/map might be something way easier than Big Black shitmaps
If there were no pp, you would feel better when you rank high on your fav. maps.
The overall harder maps just decrease the worth you would gave the maps you were enjoying more and where you ranked better, because the hard ones give more pp
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I know there are a lot of contra arguments against that point but that is one reason.
Also that is not my real opinion about pp I just wanted to bring another point of view you asked for
Sabi wrote:
2: CTB ranking should be calucated by combo/overall map progression
3:why are droplets worth 10 points.. lol? we only get these droplets to get that SS Bonus for the PP.. so please fix that <3
4: another thing is spinner maps, in ctb there are pp maps called no spinner maps such as (Maware - Popner's Hard) https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 Which gave over 40-50 PP If you SS'd it with HR/HD because you would tie for 3rd/4th place and give alot of pp, but if you even miss 1 droplet you would lose all that pp gain
5: you should weigh HR/FL, also look at HD, there are tons of HD players in CTB
thanks - sabi
EDIT: I am a nomod player, i infact HATE HD, HD for me is just for pp, i love nomod and alot of people do, so try to make it fun for the both sides of the grass HD and Nomod
That's pretty much my opinion. And I do think that missing ONE DROPLET is not a reason to lose all the pp you would get from a SS.
DeathXHunter
[Super Shock]_old
DeathXHunter wrote:
After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.
A good postbomber34 wrote:
lol the "Just play for fun" is actually a nice reasonIkillforpies wrote:
It would be nice that for those people who doesn't want pp should at least HAVE A FREAKING REASON TOO... And not just the normal JUST PLAY FOR FUN reason!... At least say why you don't want it. Explain yourselves
without pp you can concentrate easier on the top50 rankings of your favourite songs and maps only without thinking about the whole ranking, since your fav. song/map might be something way easier than Big Black shitmaps
If there were no pp, you would feel better when you rank high on your fav. maps.
The overall harder maps just decrease the worth you would gave the maps you were enjoying more and where you ranked better, because the hard ones give more pp
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know there are a lot of contra arguments against that point but that is one reason.
Also that is not my real opinion about pp I just wanted to bring another point of view you asked for
I am just sick of people saying. delete the pp system with no explanation/reason.
But this is why that there should be a option that allows disable seeing PP in your ranks and everyone else profile. There should be a option saying, disable seeing all pp.
Or Maybe a option too be take place in the PP ranking. If you don't want to be PP ranking, you shouldn't be. But if you want to take place in the pp ranking you should. There should be a option saying if you want to take place in the pp rankings.
If you don't see any pp, you won't get stressed about it.
While there people who want to see pp and see where they place in the world. And feel happy inside ( example:that i am #10 in this country, ect)
pp = competition -> competition = conflicts -> conflicts = "lol u suck noob"
no pp = no competition -> no competition = much less conflicts -> much less conflicts = "wanna play some multi m8?"
but yeah, i just said i'd like pp rankings to be removed, not like i don't have a reason to think like that or the other people don't. i know pp is going to get on again but that doesn't mean i can't say that pp is completely stupid and is a waste of developer's time
no pp = no competition -> no competition = much less conflicts -> much less conflicts = "wanna play some multi m8?"
but yeah, i just said i'd like pp rankings to be removed, not like i don't have a reason to think like that or the other people don't. i know pp is going to get on again but that doesn't mean i can't say that pp is completely stupid and is a waste of developer's time
I agree with you.DeathXHunter wrote:
After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.
wdf this.
Best Performance is only ctb maps...
CTB map + Easy = Best pp(over +100 pp)
Edit : ppv2 isn't based on osu!tp Diffculty.
and other modes(mania,CTB,Taiko) pp grows if i play exclusive maps.
Edit2 : so i don't like ppv2. just get back to ppv1.
so what i've been spectate in the game
CTB maps is too much pp giving (especially Overdose and Rain)
so there's less (even no) converted maps (even that's hard as hell map, 0108 as example) listed on Top Performance..
so why not lightening the pp in CTB Map specified ? the comparison between converted maps (the approved ones) and CTB Maps is 3:1 (CMIIW), right ?
CTB maps is too much pp giving (especially Overdose and Rain)
so there's less (even no) converted maps (even that's hard as hell map, 0108 as example) listed on Top Performance..
so why not lightening the pp in CTB Map specified ? the comparison between converted maps (the approved ones) and CTB Maps is 3:1 (CMIIW), right ?
Question: The new salary system is coming, we want to make it even better than the previous, what are your opinions on how our workers should be paid? What should we modify to make the system be even more fairly based on ability and hardwork?
Top paid: Remove the whole salary system. Because I like working as what I like to work as, pay is pretty much meaningless, passion is way more crucial, and competitiveness can give rise to many conflict and, so no one should receive any money at all. This is factually absolute equality, the most equal way of treating everyone.
Question answered: Do y'all want salary? What do you think of the salary system?
Average & low paid: Yes we do want to be paid, even though we still enjoy our job and lesser pay doesn't necessary make us less happy with the job, but knowing that being better at this job or being better than other workers will earn me more pay, that competitiveness drives us on, we want to be rewarded for our hardwork and abilities and enjoy meritocracy as the way it is.
Question answered: RE: Do y'all want salary? What do you think of the salary system?
Those who want everyone to be paid as fairly as possible: I think HR and DT should ... And AR of songs are more important than ...
Question answered: The new salary system is coming, we want to make it even better than the previous, what are your opinions on how our workers should be paid? What should we modify to make the system be even more fairly based on ability and hardwork?
People stick to the original question please. The author is asking what to do to make the pp system better than the previous, not whether the pp system should exist in the first place. Suggesting to remove pp is as good as suggesting to remove the grading systems in exams. For peace-loving players out there who doesn't want to be judged by ranks it's okay, you can ignore the whole system and still be able to play for your own passion. But for those competition-loving players out there who seeks the satisfaction of being better than others, they need a platform to do so, and that platform is the pp system, having it removed is removing the joy of competitive players, not having it however does not remove the joy of non-competitive players. Just like some people said you can always play as a guest and check the scores of top 50 to see if you're on your favourite songs and go online when you want to play multiplayer, you have nothing to lose. Whereas for competitive players, they still have top 50s and Chart rankings, but they lose a whole platform of pp ranking. Even though the pp system is not exact, just like everything else, it has an error range, it is generally quite accurate, and that's why the developers want to make it even more accurate to serve the community better by reducing its error range with more sound calculations of more gaming elements.
My opinion on the real question is very similar to eldnl's proposal. Except that I think FL of anything more than AR7 and 500 combos should get players a greater reward than otherwise.
Weightage of beatmap elements difficulty in CTB/What are considered in calculating map difficulty (In order of importance):
1. Circle Size (Linear)
2. Jumps quickness and consecutiveness (Exponential)
3. Jumps amounts (Linear)
4. Approach Rate (Exponential)
5. Catcher's sensitivity/movement speed (Quadratic)
5. HP drain (Logarithmic)
6. Overall difficulty (What does this actually do? Make spinners harder? I'll not rate it since I don't know)
Mods/Score multipliers (Not in order of importance):
Bonus:
1. HD (Logarithmic)
2. DT/NC (Exponential)
3. HR (Exponential)
4. FL (Exponential)
5. No mod (Linear)
Penalty:
5. EZ (Linear)
6. HT (Linear)
7. NF (Exponential)
Special:
No change
Ranking conditions:
1. Top ranks of the song achieved and not every time a person plays.
2. Retries doesn't count.
3. Failures doesn't count.
4. CTB special maps only give 10% more ranking bonus.
5. Star difficulty doesn't count.
6. Actually overall map difficulty increase pp intake exponentially.
7. A person can lose pp, but only when he/she is being pushed downwards by others (e.g. #1 taken away).
8. Accuracy matters but only linearly.
9. SS should have a 5% extra bonus above S. But SSH has no extra bonus above SS.
10. A person can gain a little bit of pp when others are ranked bellowed them (e.g. #1/500 ---> #1/1000, gain 0.1% extra pp per percentage increase in the original amount of people playing it, in this case, gain 0.2% extra pp after 1 day)
11. pp depletes linearly but very little per day, like 0.0001% every day.
12. Spinners award the same amount of reward as in ppv1.
13. Increase value of droplets from 10 points to 50 points, thus increasing its impact on accuracy value by 5 times too.
There might be other things I want to add on later, when I think of it, I'll add it in
Top paid: Remove the whole salary system. Because I like working as what I like to work as, pay is pretty much meaningless, passion is way more crucial, and competitiveness can give rise to many conflict and, so no one should receive any money at all. This is factually absolute equality, the most equal way of treating everyone.
Question answered: Do y'all want salary? What do you think of the salary system?
Average & low paid: Yes we do want to be paid, even though we still enjoy our job and lesser pay doesn't necessary make us less happy with the job, but knowing that being better at this job or being better than other workers will earn me more pay, that competitiveness drives us on, we want to be rewarded for our hardwork and abilities and enjoy meritocracy as the way it is.
Question answered: RE: Do y'all want salary? What do you think of the salary system?
Those who want everyone to be paid as fairly as possible: I think HR and DT should ... And AR of songs are more important than ...
Question answered: The new salary system is coming, we want to make it even better than the previous, what are your opinions on how our workers should be paid? What should we modify to make the system be even more fairly based on ability and hardwork?
People stick to the original question please. The author is asking what to do to make the pp system better than the previous, not whether the pp system should exist in the first place. Suggesting to remove pp is as good as suggesting to remove the grading systems in exams. For peace-loving players out there who doesn't want to be judged by ranks it's okay, you can ignore the whole system and still be able to play for your own passion. But for those competition-loving players out there who seeks the satisfaction of being better than others, they need a platform to do so, and that platform is the pp system, having it removed is removing the joy of competitive players, not having it however does not remove the joy of non-competitive players. Just like some people said you can always play as a guest and check the scores of top 50 to see if you're on your favourite songs and go online when you want to play multiplayer, you have nothing to lose. Whereas for competitive players, they still have top 50s and Chart rankings, but they lose a whole platform of pp ranking. Even though the pp system is not exact, just like everything else, it has an error range, it is generally quite accurate, and that's why the developers want to make it even more accurate to serve the community better by reducing its error range with more sound calculations of more gaming elements.
My opinion on the real question is very similar to eldnl's proposal. Except that I think FL of anything more than AR7 and 500 combos should get players a greater reward than otherwise.
Weightage of beatmap elements difficulty in CTB/What are considered in calculating map difficulty (In order of importance):
1. Circle Size (Linear)
2. Jumps quickness and consecutiveness (Exponential)
3. Jumps amounts (Linear)
4. Approach Rate (Exponential)
5. Catcher's sensitivity/movement speed (Quadratic)
5. HP drain (Logarithmic)
6. Overall difficulty (What does this actually do? Make spinners harder? I'll not rate it since I don't know)
Mods/Score multipliers (Not in order of importance):
Bonus:
1. HD (Logarithmic)
2. DT/NC (Exponential)
3. HR (Exponential)
4. FL (Exponential)
5. No mod (Linear)
Penalty:
5. EZ (Linear)
6. HT (Linear)
7. NF (Exponential)
Special:
No change
Ranking conditions:
1. Top ranks of the song achieved and not every time a person plays.
2. Retries doesn't count.
3. Failures doesn't count.
4. CTB special maps only give 10% more ranking bonus.
5. Star difficulty doesn't count.
6. Actually overall map difficulty increase pp intake exponentially.
7. A person can lose pp, but only when he/she is being pushed downwards by others (e.g. #1 taken away).
8. Accuracy matters but only linearly.
9. SS should have a 5% extra bonus above S. But SSH has no extra bonus above SS.
10. A person can gain a little bit of pp when others are ranked bellowed them (e.g. #1/500 ---> #1/1000, gain 0.1% extra pp per percentage increase in the original amount of people playing it, in this case, gain 0.2% extra pp after 1 day)
11. pp depletes linearly but very little per day, like 0.0001% every day.
12. Spinners award the same amount of reward as in ppv1.
13. Increase value of droplets from 10 points to 50 points, thus increasing its impact on accuracy value by 5 times too.
There might be other things I want to add on later, when I think of it, I'll add it in
Topic Starter
Please read the first post.Mania Vocaloid wrote:
CTB map + Easy = Best pp(over +100 pp)
Edit : ppv2 isn't based on osu!tp Diffculty.
and other modes(mania,CTB,Taiko) pp grows if i play exclusive maps.
Edit2 : so i don't like ppv2. just get back to ppv1.
Tom94 wrote:
note that currently the Catch the Beat ranking is not functional.
To everyone else: Unfortunately I can't reply to every big suggestion post, but they all have been read and understood. I will give out more information as soon as I find the time to start working on the CtB pp.
Please keep the discussion structured. If you are incapable to contribute in a constructive manner, your posts will be removed and penalities will be given out.
Give me back my #193 in ctb mode!!!
I think some people in this thread are not being realistic, osu has always been a competitive game so there must be some ranking system going on
though i agree it was more fun to play without a rank since you dont carry a stigma because of your number, but by saying "disable pp" in this thread you are not contributing at all!
if you want ranks to be disabled again you should post something on Feature req like "no rank day once a month" or something?
I agree that it should be something like
approved > insane > hard
since i had the impression that with ppv1 hard maps where giving more points than insane and approved ones? and thats a bit unfair
and i think SS should be weighed since, well, its 100% and against 99,9% SS is still a better performance, but it wouldnt be fair if you got pp only when you rank SS either so something based on the accuracy you get in a map would make everyone happy if applied fairly, the more accuracy the more pp you win considering your max combo
about the score multipliers i think DT and HR should be weighed more since HD never seemed to me like a very hard-to-play mod not even in standard, to me its more like an ornament rather than a challenge but thats just my opinion
though i agree it was more fun to play without a rank since you dont carry a stigma because of your number, but by saying "disable pp" in this thread you are not contributing at all!
if you want ranks to be disabled again you should post something on Feature req like "no rank day once a month" or something?
I agree that it should be something like
approved > insane > hard
since i had the impression that with ppv1 hard maps where giving more points than insane and approved ones? and thats a bit unfair
and i think SS should be weighed since, well, its 100% and against 99,9% SS is still a better performance, but it wouldnt be fair if you got pp only when you rank SS either so something based on the accuracy you get in a map would make everyone happy if applied fairly, the more accuracy the more pp you win considering your max combo
about the score multipliers i think DT and HR should be weighed more since HD never seemed to me like a very hard-to-play mod not even in standard, to me its more like an ornament rather than a challenge but thats just my opinion
Okay, so I didn't read all the things in the thread, so I'll just lay out things I can think of off the top of my head.
AR10 should be weighted heavier than most things, and if you have mods, even more so, because ar10 is actually like unplayable for most CtB players.
Marathon maps should be weighted a little more than they were, especially if they pass 10 minutes, and even more so if you SS/SSH it.
Difficult songs with low AR should be ranked more. Example:Asumi Kana & Fujita Saki & Kitamura Eri - COOLISH WALK (TV Size) - [Ex]
Super high CS should be weighted heavier.
AR10 should be weighted heavier than most things, and if you have mods, even more so, because ar10 is actually like unplayable for most CtB players.
Marathon maps should be weighted a little more than they were, especially if they pass 10 minutes, and even more so if you SS/SSH it.
Difficult songs with low AR should be ranked more. Example:Asumi Kana & Fujita Saki & Kitamura Eri - COOLISH WALK (TV Size) - [Ex]
Super high CS should be weighted heavier.
(At first, I´m sorry for my bad english)
I think the pp system, should be allowed only for players, they want to play with the system.
A lot of people arent interested in the system and the "no pp player" should be removed from the pp system. Maybe, peppy can script a question on the userpage or here https://osu.ppy.sh/p/pp. You can choose then for yourself, that you play with or not with the system.
After this, the pp ranklist should be more clearer then before.
Sure a lot of good players whould be famer then before, but fun is more important then fame.
If you want to be fame, than play scoccer, draw mangas or do something right in the world, but osu! isnt like this! Is just a game
I think the pp system, should be allowed only for players, they want to play with the system.
A lot of people arent interested in the system and the "no pp player" should be removed from the pp system. Maybe, peppy can script a question on the userpage or here https://osu.ppy.sh/p/pp. You can choose then for yourself, that you play with or not with the system.
After this, the pp ranklist should be more clearer then before.
Sure a lot of good players whould be famer then before, but fun is more important then fame.
If you want to be fame, than play scoccer, draw mangas or do something right in the world, but osu! isnt like this! Is just a game
This is the best idea (that will not be considered) that I heard so far.ConanCloud wrote:
(At first, I´m sorry for my bad english)
I think the pp system, should be allowed only for players, they want to play with the system.
A lot of people arent interested in the system and the "no pp player" should be removed from the pp system. Maybe, peppy can script a question on the userpage or here https://osu.ppy.sh/p/pp. You can choose then for yourself, that you play with or not with the system.
After this, the pp ranklist should be more clearer then before.
Sure a lot of good players whould be famer then before, but fun is more important then fame.
If you want to be fame, than play scoccer, draw mangas or do something right in the world, but osu! isnt like this! Is just a game
I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:
1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
4. HD should have more weight on maps that are difficult rather than having it static throughout all maps.
5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
6. For CTB specifics, Deluge should have most weight with every difficulty level below it having less weight than the one above.
7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that should'nt be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
I'll give more suggestions as I think of them.
1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
4. HD should have more weight on maps that are difficult rather than having it static throughout all maps.
5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
6. For CTB specifics, Deluge should have most weight with every difficulty level below it having less weight than the one above.
7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that should'nt be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
I'll give more suggestions as I think of them.
i Agree with this , also one more thing, a map that has no spins and you have to SS to get the pp is bs in my opinion, in other words SS no spin should not weight as much.TenguKing9 wrote:
I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:
1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
4. HD should have more weight on maps that are difficult rather than having it static throughout all maps.
5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
6. For CTB specifics, Deluge should have most weight with every difficulty level below it having less weight than the one above.
7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that should'nt be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
IMO AR10 with HR is still harder than AR10 with HD. Just because the AR doesn't increase anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't get way harder. (cause like things get further apart and the cs gets smaller)TenguKing9 wrote:
7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
I disagree but maybe you just misswrote or so ...TenguKing9 wrote:
I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
it should not give to much bonus but it should weight more than no mod, because next to memorization you still need the skill to play the map.
If you suck at a map, memorizing everything won't help you at all anyway when it comes to this mod.
Playing AR9 or AR10 with DT is incredibly difficult since it's faster than AR10 at this point. I do agree with you that HR with AR10 is harder than playing it with HD, but the point is that AR9 with DT is much harder than AR9 with HR because it is AR10.3 and you have less time to react.Rorona wrote:
IMO AR10 with HR is still harder than AR10 with HD. Just because the AR doesn't increase anymore doesn't mean that it doesn't get way harder. (cause like things get further apart and the cs gets smaller)TenguKing9 wrote:
7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
I meant this for low AR plays such as AR6 and below. Anything above AR7 with this mod should have a bonus like you said but not as big as per say DT or HR.bomber34 wrote:
I disagree but maybe you just misswrote or so ...TenguKing9 wrote:
I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
it should not give to much bonus but it should weight more than no mod, because next to memorization you still need the skill to play the map.
If you suck at a map, memorizing everything won't help you at all anyway when it comes to this mod.
okay, then it is alrightTenguKing9 wrote:
I meant this for low AR plays such as AR6 and below. Anything above AR7 with this mod should have a bonus like you said but not as big as per say DT or HR.
Between DT on Ar8 and HR on Ar8 = HR Ar8 should be slightly weight more. But not that big of a difference.
By the Way I am still thinking that my opinion on a map that has no spins and you have to SS to get the pp is not good, in other words SS no spin should not weight as much.
P.s, There is many People that have opinions or that i know that have opinions, so feel free to suggest stuff, this is your time to give your opinion and make PP System Fair.
By the Way I am still thinking that my opinion on a map that has no spins and you have to SS to get the pp is not good, in other words SS no spin should not weight as much.
P.s, There is many People that have opinions or that i know that have opinions, so feel free to suggest stuff, this is your time to give your opinion and make PP System Fair.
This is what I'm talking about...TenguKing9 wrote:
I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:
1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
4. HD should have more weight on maps that are difficult rather than having it static throughout all maps.
5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
6. For CTB specifics, Deluge should have most weight with every difficulty level below it having less weight than the one above.
7. HR should have more weight than DT at AR7 and AR8 but should have less at AR9+ since it caps out at AR10.
8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that should'nt be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
I'll give more suggestions as I think of them.
Which is why I pointed that one out since I agree with what you posted. I don't know about the rest of the players but I wouldn't like seeing only ctb specifics in my top performance list.
Completely disagree with this. A map being approved doesn't necessarily mean it's harder than an Insane diff. The way tp works (calculating the difficulty of each map) should be ok.jaibo wrote:
I agree that it should be something like
approved > insane > hard
eldnl wrote:
About mods:
- Playing DT on AR9+ maps. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66853&m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2
- Playing HR on AR8+ maps. example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/291996?m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/b/151017?m=2
- Playing HD on AR7- maps (but the map has to be a hard difficulty). https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=51308&m=2 - https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=101727&m=2
- Playing FL on AR9+ maps. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86324&m=2
That's the harder stuff about mods.
About the normal difficulty of a map, you have to consider thexdistance of the notes, including sliders, because theydistance doesn't matter at all.
The note density doesn't matter that much, everything is about the jumps, a fast bpm song without jumps will be easy, a slow bpm song with a lot of jump will be hard.
The stream jumps can be considered has something really hard.
If anyone can add something that would be great.
Adding on to what eldnl said, I put some maps together that are hard with no mod according to AR (Feel free to elaborate on these):
I realized that I have missed maps that are hard but these are just some that I can quickly think off the top of my head so please bear with that.
AR8 - Kirby Mix difficulties, Non stop road [hich's Rain], Emerald Sword [Extreme], The Beginning [AngelHoney], WAWAWA SPEED mix [Marathon], Wing my way [Hell-jumping]
AR9 - With a Dance Number [0108 style], No39 [0108 style], Talent Shredder [0108], Six Trillion [0108], FREEDMAN [Freedom, Iyasine, Nouk], Skystar difficulties except for Artcore Jinja, Homework Crisis [Let's Jump!!] (HD Bonus suggested for this one) , MISTAKE [Ms.0108, Chewu], I [Another], Intersect Thunderbolt [Thunderbolt], Rubik's Cube [Cube], COSMOS [Cosmos], Dragons [Insane] (HD bonus suggested with this one)
AR10 - Image Material [Scorpiour], The Creator [Nyaten], Kyouki Chinden [Madness Precipitation], Rog-unlimitation [AngelHoney], I [Terror]
Er. I read HD, not DT the first time, I swear.TenguKing9 wrote:
Playing AR9 or AR10 with DT is incredibly difficult since it's faster than AR10 at this point. I do agree with you that HR with AR10 is harder than playing it with HD, but the point is that AR9 with DT is much harder than AR9 with HR because it is AR10.3 and you have less time to react.
OT: FLHD should be worth more. (does anyone even play that?)
Remove performance points.
some personal opinions o.o
Just like the tp system, I think the ability of playing CtB can be divided into different aspects and can't be treated like "this map is definitely harder than that map"
imo,there are 3 aspects:
1.the ability of reaction. This is based mostly on AR. a good example is many people can't FC AR10(or AR8+HR) maps
2.the ability of moving smoothly. A such example is that it's very hard to get SS when CS is high. one may always miss droplets here and there.The other situtation is when play with DT mod,it's harder to get SS since the movement of plate is accelerated too.
3.the ability of "jumping" correctly. A such example is this map. you can watch the reps as some continous left-right jumps.
There are also some auto-converts created strange arrange of friuts. But under most situation it can be treated as combing ability 2 and 3.
HD can't be treated as a normal mod in CtB, there are a lot of people who can't play even a little HD as well as people who can't play without HD when AR is high. But low AR HD should always consider a hard mod, imo.
Will add more if I think of them.
Just like the tp system, I think the ability of playing CtB can be divided into different aspects and can't be treated like "this map is definitely harder than that map"
imo,there are 3 aspects:
1.the ability of reaction. This is based mostly on AR. a good example is many people can't FC AR10(or AR8+HR) maps
2.the ability of moving smoothly. A such example is that it's very hard to get SS when CS is high. one may always miss droplets here and there.The other situtation is when play with DT mod,it's harder to get SS since the movement of plate is accelerated too.
3.the ability of "jumping" correctly. A such example is this map. you can watch the reps as some continous left-right jumps.
There are also some auto-converts created strange arrange of friuts. But under most situation it can be treated as combing ability 2 and 3.
HD can't be treated as a normal mod in CtB, there are a lot of people who can't play even a little HD as well as people who can't play without HD when AR is high. But low AR HD should always consider a hard mod, imo.
Will add more if I think of them.
I suggest the user panel display 2 ranks : the total score rank and the pp rank
whatever pp‘s algorithm adust, not everyone is satisified.
According to peppy's thought, pp should reflect the player's skill. I come up with an idea of this: the Arena mode. Only mp can reflect the player's truly skill, so, in the arena mode, there are two teams, 8 players can go the match, the winner team add the pp, the loser lost pp,a bit like laddar mode in dota. the postion is random accorriding to pp .
Just a simple idea for refference
whatever pp‘s algorithm adust, not everyone is satisified.
According to peppy's thought, pp should reflect the player's skill. I come up with an idea of this: the Arena mode. Only mp can reflect the player's truly skill, so, in the arena mode, there are two teams, 8 players can go the match, the winner team add the pp, the loser lost pp,a bit like laddar mode in dota. the postion is random accorriding to pp .
Just a simple idea for refference
Gonna try and share some of my thoughts on this by expanding upon others ideas, personally I wouldn't mind seeing pp gone completely, but if we're going to have it hopefully we can get it right this time.
Also please make it so Cups and Salads stop giving gigantic amounts of pp, sure they're ctb maps that will usually be hard with mods but they're still not hard enough to give the amount they do currently.
CtB has always had droplets as being 10 points (at least as long as I've been around) and changing this now would cause problems more than likely.Sabi wrote:
3:why are droplets worth 10 points.. lol? we only get these droplets to get that SS Bonus for the PP.. so please fix that <3
This doesn't really need to be addressed as ppv2 doesn't care about your rank, it cares about your accuracy/mods more, though I do think on maps with spinners it should reward you a bit more for spinning well.Sabi wrote:
4: another thing is spinner maps, in ctb there are pp maps called no spinner maps such as (Maware - Popner's Hard) https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 Which gave over 40-50 PP If you SS'd it with HR/HD because you would tie for 3rd/4th place and give alot of pp, but if you even miss 1 droplet you would lose all that pp gain
HD should ALWAYS give more than no mod imo, as no map is ever actually easier, on AR<7 it is hard for most people but those maps shouldn't matter for the most part except for when they have small CS or when adding HR creates a lot of tough jumps that were easy beforehand (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290744&m=2 Not that challenging no mod but when you add HR very few people can FC even though the AR is low). And when it comes to hard maps, the harder end of the AR8 maps become extremely difficult to do with HD (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=240107&m=2 no one has even FC'd with HD yet) and on hard AR9 maps HD always makes them more challenging, hard jumps will always become much harder when using HD, even if the player is better at using HD than no mod, such as myself. The best solution would be to have HD weigh more heavily on maps that are especially hard with HD when compared to no mod, and weigh less (but still slightly more than no mod) on easier maps.bomber34 wrote:
HD should not be weighted that much ... or more or less like
- the lower the AR the more HD weights
on high AR you can ignore HD really
Most of what you said was pretty good, though note density can matter with jumps, especially on a map like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=129285&m=2 , the notes are so close together that they become very hard to hit on ctb even with no mod, so when calculating difficulty, maybe consider not just how close jumps are horizontally, but maybe how close they are on the timeline as well as how often the jumps are close enough to be hard to hit.eldnl wrote:
The note density doesn't matter that much, everything is about the jumps, a fast bpm song without jumps will be easy, a slow bpm song with a lot of jump will be hard.
This is somewhat good, but we have to make sure that an SS isn't given too little weight, as sometimes hitting those droplets can take a lot of work and deserve a reward, and maybe we should base the pp bonus an SS will give based on how hard it is to SS compared to getting an FC (maybe by the % of FC's that are also an SS?) Basically an SS should still always give more, but just not to the ridiculous extent as it does currently.TenguKing9 wrote:
1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
FL should always be weighted heavier than no mod, but it should be weighted accordingly to how difficult the jumps are in a map, as slow maps with very few jumps are pretty easy to do with FL, while taking the time to FC something somewhat hard should give you a reward (hopefully not to a huge extent though)TenguKing9 wrote:
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
Again this needs to be based on how hard the map will be with those mods, as on most maps, DT is still easier, while on AR8+ some maps become hard to simply pass with DT, so the weighting should be on a per map basis as explained for Hd and FLTenguKing9 wrote:
3. DT should have more weight overall since players can DT AR8 maps that are difficult and get little to no reward for it in the previous system. The higher the AR the more weight it should have since it doesn't cap at AR10 like HR does.
I do believe AR10 should have more weight than currently probably but we should avoid making it too big as some players (such as myself) just simply don't have the ability to do AR10 without memorizing the entire map, I kinda wish AR10 was made somewhat slower for ctb and other AR's were adjusted accordingly to be more fair as you're limited by the catcher speed as WELL as reaction time, while every other mode relies purely on your reaction time, but this isn't the place for a discussion on that.TenguKing9 wrote:
5. AR10 maps should have a lot of weight since not many players in CTB can read AR10 and the maps with it are really difficult.
I agree with this but Freedom Dive is a horrible example since it's still very hard for people to FC even with being much easier than on standard. a map like MENDES (https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=75831&m=2) would probably do much better as an example as it's hard for the average standard player to combo yet on ctb you need HD+DT just to get top 50, which is very uncommon for any AR8 map on ctb.TenguKing9 wrote:
8. There are maps that are considered easier to do on CTB than on standard example being Freedom Dive that shouldn't be weighed as heavily on ctb due to it being mostly streams.
This very true, there are several maps that are harder than most specifics, I don't need to list examples as any ctb player knows this. Though if a converted map's difficulty is calculated to around the same as a specific, I believe the specific should give a little more as it was made for ctb specifically.TenguKing9 wrote:
9. There are auto-converts that are harder than some ctb specifics that should weigh more in this case. CTB Specifics shouldn't outweigh every map just because it's a specific.
I don't like the idea of HD+FL giving a large bonus on ctb as most maps that have more than 300-400 combo are impossible to do without total memorization, and while memorization is considered a skill something like HD+FL shouldn't be able to end up giving people a large amount of pp that they don't deserve. A bonus is fine, but please nothing too large.Rorona wrote:
OT: FLHD should be worth more. (does anyone even play that?)
Also please make it so Cups and Salads stop giving gigantic amounts of pp, sure they're ctb maps that will usually be hard with mods but they're still not hard enough to give the amount they do currently.
well my " high AR you can ignore HD really" part was forumalted badly ...Zak wrote:
HD should ALWAYS give more than no mod imo, as no map is ever actually easier, on AR<7 it is hard for most people but those maps shouldn't matter for the most part except for when they have small CS or when adding HR creates a lot of tough jumps that were easy beforehand (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/290744&m=2 Not that challenging no mod but when you add HR very few people can FC even though the AR is low). And when it comes to hard maps, the harder end of the AR8 maps become extremely difficult to do with HD (example: http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=240107&m=2 no one has even FC'd with HD yet) and on hard AR9 maps HD always makes them more challenging, hard jumps will always become much harder when using HD, even if the player is better at using HD than no mod, such as myself. The best solution would be to have HD weigh more heavily on maps that are especially hard with HD when compared to no mod, and weigh less (but still slightly more than no mod) on easier maps.bomber34 wrote:
HD should not be weighted that much ... or more or less like
- the lower the AR the more HD weights
on high AR you can ignore HD really
I never said/meant that HD should give less points than nomod
I still say the lower the AR the harder is HD
and from my personal experience it doesn't matter for me playing HD on AR8 - 9 if we ignore weird shaped sliders when it comes to Acc.
on AR8 or 9 the point where I look at the dropping frutis is above the point where they become invisible, so I can see the next fruits already. I don't think I am the only one doing it that way but there are sure people who have a different fixed view point for catching
That does not mean that every AR8 - 9 map is as easy to play with HD.
Yeah there might be exceptions but I talk about a very general spread of maps we have in terms of so called "difficulty"
overall there should be a way to calculate how difficult a map becomes with HD but I am not the one who can think of a way for that
I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Well, I can't play HD at all, even though I was like rank 900, because I look right above Ryuuta to play, or at least a little above him.Zak wrote:
I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
But what bomber said was right, HD should still count more than an SS even though an SSH might be easier for some people to do on AR9+ maps.
you mean like This ? :^)Zak wrote:
I was simply explaining my views while taking into consideration that some people have a lot of trouble playing HD even if they're pretty good no mod, I would say though that the harder a map is to FC/SS the harder it will be with HD added as a result.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Yes, some maps are even harder with HD (even with AR9, 0108 again here it comes).
Also.....add something again ?
I use my poor english
Difficulty comes from 'from left to right and how fast it is'
Just like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=142954&m=2
It is very hard.
jump, jump and jump; and fast
and this https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=64267&m=2
this is almost impossible for most players
somewhere, notes gos far and fast
Also, AR9 is much easier than AR10
Even DT is easier than HR (though I cannot pass AR9+DT
)
Some jumps without hi-dash(red fruits):
there is a note A and a note B
1. you must dash to catch B immediately after you get A
2. you can wait for a little momment to catch B after you get A
Obviously, 1 is harder than 2 ---- it is the limit to make 'red fruits' NOT appear
Difficulty comes from 'from left to right and how fast it is'
Just like https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=142954&m=2
It is very hard.
jump, jump and jump; and fast
and this https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=64267&m=2
this is almost impossible for most players
somewhere, notes gos far and fast
Also, AR9 is much easier than AR10
Even DT is easier than HR (though I cannot pass AR9+DT
)Some jumps without hi-dash(red fruits):
there is a note A and a note B
1. you must dash to catch B immediately after you get A
2. you can wait for a little momment to catch B after you get A
Obviously, 1 is harder than 2 ---- it is the limit to make 'red fruits' NOT appear
DeathXHunter
Just get the hell out of this thread, thanks.[Super Shock] wrote:
The only thing I what please is too Fix the top Rangs on Profile
I don't see what is the issue with PP and Ranking, In every game there always is a Ranking System to motivate yourself to get better, and believe me the only reason why i got pp/rank in the first place was to prove myself good, rank 180 looks alot better than rank 1000 in my eyes, and it helps to let people know what is your skill set and what's your overall progression, if you remove ranking you will most likely remove OWC and CTB WC, there will be no point, and yes in this game there always is Competitiveness no matter how you look at it, theres a REASON why it says "#1" In Multi
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_game Also quote directly from here
"The players might be independent opponents, formed into teams or be just a single team pitted against the game."
^OPPONENTS "someone who competes against or fights another in a contest, game, or argument; a rival or adversary." So please stop
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_game Also quote directly from here
"The players might be independent opponents, formed into teams or be just a single team pitted against the game."
^OPPONENTS "someone who competes against or fights another in a contest, game, or argument; a rival or adversary." So please stop
pow haha googel[Super Shock] wrote:
I know that my english is bad so I have something misspelled
P. S. I work with googel OK <. <
---------------------------------------------------------
Ok, let's come back to the thread.
I think the pp system should experience a big revolution, and maybe re-weight the items like adding some mods, accuracy, etc.
I would suggest some other things about the pp system in order to improve this system.
1. Some map items (AR, CS, HP, OD...)
These items can weight more in my opinion. Most of the maps should depends on these items.
For example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=131891&m=2 The Big Black is one of the hardest CTB maps at the moment as most of the CTB players said. AR10 is the highest AR without mods, so AR10 would weight more pp than AR1-9. Therefore, the pp would depend on the AR, HP, OD, CS according to its map diff.
2. Mods
The mods also take part in the pp system, but I think some of the mods should tweek a bit. Let me list some of the mods first.
HardRock (HR) - This mod should weight the most arranging to the other mods like Flashlight, Hidden etc. Since the pattern of the fruit changes if you use HardRock on a map regardless of the difficulty. Also, the AR changes if you use HardRock, like an AR7 map if you use HardRock, it changes to a higher AR amount.
DoubleTime (DT) - This mod should weight second highest (the first highest is HR). The AR won't change if you use it, but it indeed changes the pace/BPM of a song, and also the movement speed of the ryuuta (the catcher). While using DT, you would got a littler reaction time to the fruit, since it falls much faster than without DT.
Hidden (HD) - This mod should weight third highest then. Though the AR/pace/BPM didn't really changed, HD tests your imagination of the falling fruits. It is quite hard for some of the players to figure the fruit falling place and the time where it reaches the ryuuta.
None/No-Mod - Fourth mod to weight pp in my opinion. Using None/No-Mod requires strong reaction since you may be nervous when you are catching them (like some AR10s). However, you can still see the movement speed of the fruit, letting you to react better comparing to the other mods.
FlashLight (FL) - In my opinion this would be the mod that gives the least pp. FL tests player's memorization, which is just acting the same thing as No-Mod does, but with some black areas around the ryuuta. I think using FL just only need memorization, which should not worth that many pp.
Controversial point
I know after you watch the above suggestions (Mods), you will immediately think of a question: 'what if da player are skillful to nomod but not hd/skillful to hd but not nomod?'
So the following items can answer your question.
There would also be like a function that can see if you rely on which mod mostly. For example, a player prefers HD to No-Mod, like 4500 are HD plays, and 100 plays are No-Mod. In this scenario, the No-Mod should weight more pp than HD then since he isn't good at No-Mod (or not preferring to it). This can encourage him/her to use the No-Mod.
This thing can also applicate on other stuff like HardRock/FlashLight etc.
3. Accuracy
The accuracy also plays a big role on pp system. As some of you point out that https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=316622&m=2, the player using HDHR got a SS on this map got a lot of pp according to the old pp system (ppv1). I think accuracy can be improved so that the accuracy would not be relied that much.
This accuracy item can pair up with the CS (A.K.A Circle Size). Smaller CS represents that a smaller chance to SS the map. Take a look at https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2. Most of the players got a S or lower like A,B,C... It is because of its small circle size that makes people hard to concentrate on getting those droplets. At this point, accuracy can really tests a player's concentration on those droplets.
4. Misc.
I wanna point out some of the items that SHOULD NOT be weighted with pp (or maybe just a little).
1) Score
The score should not be weighted with pp, otherwise all marathon maps will become pp farming maps.
2) Map star rating
The star rating in each maps also aren't accurate enough, so it shouldn't be weighted with pp unless the star rating algorithm is changed. A good example that is: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/292911, when you SS this map with HDHR and get a high spin, you get a bunch of pp (according to the old pp system). This difficulty was rated as Insane diff, but somehow, this map is just an easy difficulty comparing to the other difficulties in this mapset.
Thank you for reading my post.
Please voice your opinion below. If you don't really understand what I said (or just maybe my suck English cuz im an alien ya kno'), maybe you can say it out.
Who said pp was gonna be remove ..Sabi wrote:
I don't see what is the issue with PP and Ranking, In every game there always is a Ranking System to motivate yourself to get better, and believe me the only reason why i got pp/rank in the first place was to prove myself good, rank 180 looks alot better than rank 1000 in my eyes, and it helps to let people know what is your skill set and what's your overall progression, if you remove ranking you will most likely remove OWC and CTB WC, there will be no point, and yes in this game there always is Competitiveness no matter how you look at it, theres a REASON why it says "#1" In Multi
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_game Also quote directly from here
"The players might be independent opponents, formed into teams or be just a single team pitted against the game."
^OPPONENTS "someone who competes against or fights another in a contest, game, or argument; a rival or adversary." So please stop
Haron_old_1
100% Kingkevin30 aprroved, Spinners are the Soul of every MapHaron wrote:
I want peppy do that PPv2 depends on SPINNERS!!! #1 in "your" mod - much more pp.
Bad english, yea...
so PP-Rain for all the Spinner lovers <3YusHaron wrote:
I want peppy do that PPv2 depends on SPINNERS!!! #1 in "your" mod - much more pp.
Bad english, yea...
though i got nub spin
+4
Spinners are fine as they were before the non-functional "update". Well, maybe they had a somewhat too high influence on PP but I guess it's too difficult to neglect that when it comes to rankings & stuff.
Example:
A : 5650 Score
B : 5649 Score (1 Spinner less than A)
C : 5647 Score (2 spinners less than B, 3 less than A)
D : 5644 Score (3 less than C, 6 less than A)
E : 5640 Score (4 less than D, 10 less than A)
Let's assume they have all HD 100%.
I think A would get way more PP than the rest in the last sytsem (while D would get next to no PPs) which had to do with the rankings of the map. I can't think of a way to make the spins' influence lower.
More interesting in terms of spins are the following two:
No-spinner-map:
A, B, C & D: 5650 Score, HD 100%
E: 5650 - 10 Score, HD 99,xx%
Here, E'd get absolutely no PPs for FCing the map since he didn't get SS while A - D would get the full amount of PP since they're theoretically all on the same position in terms of ranking.
It'd be much easier if there would be a definite PP for Rank X - Y (100%) on zero-spinner-maps and a penalty for those who didn't get SS, but not that huge.
Another one's this:
A: 5651 Score, 100%
B: 5650 - 10 Score, 99,xx%
C: 5649 Score, 100%
A'd get the most PP here, that's for sure I guess, while I think C'd get more PP than B because he got 100% on the map.
That's a pretty basical problem the new system has to deal with - what's worth more? 100% or more spin?
It surely has been 100% in the old system.
Spinners are fine as they were before the non-functional "update". Well, maybe they had a somewhat too high influence on PP but I guess it's too difficult to neglect that when it comes to rankings & stuff.
Example:
A : 5650 Score
B : 5649 Score (1 Spinner less than A)
C : 5647 Score (2 spinners less than B, 3 less than A)
D : 5644 Score (3 less than C, 6 less than A)
E : 5640 Score (4 less than D, 10 less than A)
Let's assume they have all HD 100%.
I think A would get way more PP than the rest in the last sytsem (while D would get next to no PPs) which had to do with the rankings of the map. I can't think of a way to make the spins' influence lower.
More interesting in terms of spins are the following two:
No-spinner-map:
A, B, C & D: 5650 Score, HD 100%
E: 5650 - 10 Score, HD 99,xx%
Here, E'd get absolutely no PPs for FCing the map since he didn't get SS while A - D would get the full amount of PP since they're theoretically all on the same position in terms of ranking.
It'd be much easier if there would be a definite PP for Rank X - Y (100%) on zero-spinner-maps and a penalty for those who didn't get SS, but not that huge.
Another one's this:
A: 5651 Score, 100%
B: 5650 - 10 Score, 99,xx%
C: 5649 Score, 100%
A'd get the most PP here, that's for sure I guess, while I think C'd get more PP than B because he got 100% on the map.
That's a pretty basical problem the new system has to deal with - what's worth more? 100% or more spin?
It surely has been 100% in the old system.
I guess you can leave OD out of this discussion because it doesn't affect the ctb gameplay.
Another thing to add: Do not give more pp for ctb difficulties, they should be rated as every other map, as some people said, there are some non-specific maps that are way harder than ctb specific ones.
Another thing to add: Do not give more pp for ctb difficulties, they should be rated as every other map, as some people said, there are some non-specific maps that are way harder than ctb specific ones.
I never agree. SS is easy in CTB compared to other modes, of course. But then how can you give an explanation that old map, for example? There are many map for weird sliders and small CS. In some map of them, it is more hard to rank SS in CTB rather than other modes. rank higher accuracy is great abillity too. I hope to don't overlook that. In addition, if make less weight of SS, how many users strive to do rank SS? Then many users will be don't really work to do rank SS but just aim to FC and spins. How could be SS FC same with S or A, B, C, D FC on the earth?TenguKing9 wrote:
I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:
1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
TenguKing9 wrote:
2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.
FL just only need memorization? How many did you played FL? Especially, i want to ask you about have you played FL on AR 7, 8, 9 maps. To jump to the conclusion about FL is heavily based rather than actual skill, "No". I guess you don't know about what is FL actually. FL needs many actual skills. Many FL on AR 6- map maybe just need memorization. But so did AR 7+? As like AFB says, FL mod makes some black areas (Invisible) around the ryuuta. And the areas dimished when you catch the fruits 100, 200+ combo. You can never see any fruits on black areas. you can just depend on narrow lightning (Visible) areas. So you will be feel higher AR when you playing FL on whatever map. As you know, when you add HR or DT, that makes AR higher. FL so does. When you playing FL, you have to make combo in limited sight. It needs memorization, control, and adapt to higher AR. Bonus score is higher in HD+DT than FL but FL is very difficult in many AR7+ maps than HD+DT. Please play FL on AR7+ maps and think about why FL players are fewest in 4 modes.alienflybot wrote:
FlashLight (FL) - In my opinion this would be the mod that gives the least pp. FL tests player's memorization, which is just acting the same thing as No-Mod does, but with some black areas around the ryuuta. I think using FL just only need memorization, which should not worth that many pp.
Therefore, i disagree absolutely about make less weight pp of SS and FL on ppv2! They're have to keep on going like ppv1!
- My opinion
DeathXHunter
Totally not biased *cough* http://puu.sh/6HeMy.png
He said it should be less considered than it is in ppv1 and not totally ignored because it's infact the easiest mode to get an SS. About FL,I don't care,it's shit anyways.
He said it should be less considered than it is in ppv1 and not totally ignored because it's infact the easiest mode to get an SS. About FL,I don't care,it's shit anyways.
Pessimism everywhere...
Have you ever tried to be SS player and FL? It's just like someone who can't pass some beatmap criticizes like 'OMG THIS MAP IS SHIT'
I said that as a CtB player, not as a Korean.
I'm not a pro FL player so I won't, but about the SS, I think setting the players' most frequency droplet misses as a point criteria is better.
Some maps are easy, but some maps (especially maps in 2008~2009s, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2)are hard to SS.
Users' frequency Percent of pp Droplet misses
50%(the most) 10% 3
20% 13% 2
10% 20% 1
2% 30% 0
Like this, If you can't understand I'm sorry for poor language.
Have you ever tried to be SS player and FL? It's just like someone who can't pass some beatmap criticizes like 'OMG THIS MAP IS SHIT'
About FL,I don't care,it's shit anyways.Oh well, I hate FL, too. But please, this is a discussion.
I said that as a CtB player, not as a Korean.
I'm not a pro FL player so I won't, but about the SS, I think setting the players' most frequency droplet misses as a point criteria is better.
Some maps are easy, but some maps (especially maps in 2008~2009s, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2)are hard to SS.
Users' frequency Percent of pp Droplet misses
50%(the most) 10% 3
20% 13% 2
10% 20% 1
2% 30% 0
Like this, If you can't understand I'm sorry for poor language.
Aight then
So there should be a function that can calculate what mod the player rely on.
For example:
(A player's records)
HR FC - 20
DT FC - 10
HD FC - 55
FL FC - 200
So he relied on FL more than the other mods, so when he uses FL on the other maps/diffs, he may get less pp than using other mods.
So there should be a function that can calculate what mod the player rely on.
For example:
(A player's records)
HR FC - 20
DT FC - 10
HD FC - 55
FL FC - 200
So he relied on FL more than the other mods, so when he uses FL on the other maps/diffs, he may get less pp than using other mods.
FL is the hardest mod so far in AR9+
Notation used in this post:CLSW wrote:
I think setting the players' most frequency droplet misses as a point criteria is better.
Some maps are easy, but some maps (especially maps in 2008~2009s, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2)are hard to SS.
Users' frequency Percent of pp Droplet misses
50%(the most) 10% 3
20% 13% 2
10% 20% 1
2% 30% 0
Like this, If you can't understand I'm sorry for poor language.
AF = Acumulated Frequency of all groups with less droplet misses
DF = Diminishing Factor (where 0 < DF < 1)
BPF = Best Performance Factor (BPF > 1, here it is assumed that BPF = 1.01)
This seems like a good idea. And it can be worked, and here's an way: plays are sorted by droplet misses and the frequency of users with 'x' droplets misses is calculated. For the group with less droplet misses, pp given (BestPP) might be calculated as BestPP = MaxPP/BPF^(Droplet Misses). For the following groups, PP might be calculated as PP = floor(BestPP*(1- AF)^DF) (you'll see the reason for this DF later)
I'll do 4 examples, two assuming DF = 1 (Case A) and two assuming DF = 0.1 (Case B). In both cases, one example will be with players having 0 droplet misses and the other one with best plays having (at least) 1 droplet miss. Also, we'll assume the maps gives 100pp max and all scores are FC no mod.
Case A: DF = 1
A-1: There are plays with 0 droplet misses, so we'll consider the following distribution:
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
F 10% 5
E 15% 4
D 30% 3
C 25% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0
Group A would get 100pp (max possible, BestPP = 100/1.01^0 = 100)
For Group B, AF = 5%. So, PP_B= 100*(1-0.05) = 95
For Group C, AF= 5% + 15% = 20%. Therefore, PP_C = 100*(1-0.2) = 80
Similarly, PP_D = 55, PP_E = 25, PP_F = 10
A-2: Best play has (at least) 1 droplet miss, so we'll consider the following distribution:
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
E 10% 5
D 15% 4
C 30% 3
B 25% 2
A 20% 1
Group A would get BestPP = 100/1.01^1 = 99 pp
For Group B, AF = 20%. So, PP_B = 99*(1-0.2) = 79pp
Similarly, PP_C = 54, PP_D = 25, PP_E = 10
PP diminishing for missing droplets seems to harsh, so now I'll repeat the whole process considering DF = 0.1:
Case B: DF = 0.1
B-1: There are plays with 0 droplet misses, so we'll consider the following distribution:
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
F 10% 5
E 15% 4
D 30% 3
C 25% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0
Group A would get 100pp (max possible, BestPP = 100/1.01^0 = 100)
For Group B, AF = 5%. So, PP_B= 100*(1-0.05)^0.1 = 99
For Group C, AF= 5% + 15% = 20%. Therefore, PP_C = 100*(1-0.2)^0.02 = 97
Similarly, PP_D = 94, PP_E = 87, PP_F = 79
B-2: Best play has (at least) 1 droplet miss, so we'll consider the following distribution:
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet MissesGroup A would get BestPP = 100/1.01^1 = 99
E 10% 5
D 15% 4
C 30% 3
B 25% 2
A 20% 1
For Group B, AF = 20%. So, PP_B = 99*(1-0.2)^0.1 = 96
Similarly, PP_C = 93, PP_D = 86, PP_E = 78
Some ideas left:
* BPF could change based on the difficulty of catching all the droplets: maps where catching the droplets is harder should have a lower BPF
* The term BPF^(Droplet misses) could be capped at some value, e.g., 1.1.
* How can this be incorporated considering all other variables (accuracy, spinners, mods)? Maybe it could be a percentage of "accuracy".
PS: Sorry if I made any mistakes while writing this!
EDIT: Just noticed this doesn't work for certain cases. Gonna think about it later
EDIT2: Ok, I think I got it. The special case it wasn't going to work was when there's a group class with ~0% frequency, as that class and the next one would get almost the same ammount of pp (thus making catching that extra droplet worthless).
UPDATE
The new approach I'd try would be: for each class, calculate its max pp possible (TopPP) according to droplet misses, using the same formula for BestPP, i.e., TopPP = floor(MapPP/BPF^(Droplet Misses)). Now, for each class, calculate its real pp using a diminishing formula based on acumulated frequency, as PP = floor(TopPP*(1-AF)^DF).
Now, I'll use one of the examples from above but calculate map pp worth using those new formulas. Also, I'll show one case of a harder to SS map.
Example 1:
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
F 10% 5
E 15% 4
D 30% 3
C 25% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0
TopPP_A = floor(100/1.01^0) = 100
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.1) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100/1.01^1) = 99
PP_B = floor(99*(1-0.05)^0.1) = 98
TopPP_C = floor(100/1.01^2) = 98
PP_C = floor(98*(1-0.2)^0.1) = 95
TopPP_D = floor(100/1.01^3) = 97
PP_D = floor(97*(1-0.45)^0.1) = 91
TopPP_E = floor(100/1.01^4) = 96
PP_E = floor(96*(1-0.75)^0.1) = 83
TopPP_F = floor(100/1.01^5) = 95
PP_F = floor(95*(1-0.9)^0.1) = 75
Example 2: This is a harder to SS map, as there are 5% user with 0, 1 or 2 droplets misses.
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
F 30% 5
E 40% 4
D 25% 3
C 4% 2
B 0% 1
A 1% 0
TopPP_A = floor(100/1.01^0) = 100
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.1) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100/1.01^1) = 99
PP_B = floor(99*(1-0.01)^0.1) = 98
TopPP_C = floor(100/1.01^2) = 98
PP_C = floor(98*(1-0.01)^0.1) = 97
TopPP_D = floor(100/1.01^3) = 97
PP_D = floor(97*(1-0.05)^0.1) = 96
TopPP_E = floor(100/1.01^4) = 96
PP_E = floor(96*(1-0.3)^0.1) = 92
TopPP_F = floor(100/1.01^5) = 95
PP_F = floor(95*(1-0.7)^0.1) = 84
When the map is harder to SS, less players concentrate on classes with less droplets misses and the decreasing factor based on AF is not that harsh.
Two-three days ago I was 100K+ rank now 21K(according to bancho bot IG).
And honestly I'm not the best player but I always aim for the S rank.
It could use a nerf because its now really easy to get a decent rank while you suck(reffering to myself
)
And honestly I'm not the best player but I always aim for the S rank.
It could use a nerf because its now really easy to get a decent rank while you suck(reffering to myself
)
DeletedUser_500696
Uh I'm going to try to reply to zirox's post 
. I think the idea looks good, if I understand correctly you are calculating a maximum droplet pp contribution based on the map's difficulty. Then a player will get a higher fraction of that if it's more difficult to catch all of the droplets on that map. Also that droplet contrib would have less weight if everyone easily catches all of the droplets? This would fix most of the PF SS farming maps on ctb I think. What about the possibility where the map has few/no droplets and is still difficult to FC (maybe these https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=119021&m=2, https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=92780&m=2)? Would that still punish a player too much if they FC but miss a droplet? Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your formula, if it accounts for this that would be great (I suck at math can anyone offer feedback also...)
. I think the idea looks good, if I understand correctly you are calculating a maximum droplet pp contribution based on the map's difficulty. Then a player will get a higher fraction of that if it's more difficult to catch all of the droplets on that map. Also that droplet contrib would have less weight if everyone easily catches all of the droplets? This would fix most of the PF SS farming maps on ctb I think. What about the possibility where the map has few/no droplets and is still difficult to FC (maybe these https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=119021&m=2, https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=92780&m=2)? Would that still punish a player too much if they FC but miss a droplet? Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your formula, if it accounts for this that would be great (I suck at math can anyone offer feedback also...)This formula just assumes there's a Maximum Droplet PP Contribution, which I called MaxPP. As for how is it calculated, I have no idea but, as I said in my post, it could be a percentage of the "accuracy" (considering this is something similar to tp!standard, with "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy")-Kurisu- wrote:
If I understand correctly you are calculating a maximum droplet pp contribution based on the map's difficulty. Then a player will get a higher fraction of that if it's more difficult to catch all of the droplets on that map.
Nope. My formula would asign MaxPP to all those PF SS. It would, however, be more fair with non SS scores: ppv1 gave a lot of PP to those SS and missing one or more droplets meant you got almost no pp. This formula gives pp almost to all players.-Kurisu- wrote:
Also that droplet contrib would have less weight if everyone easily catches all of the droplets? This would fix most of the PF SS farming maps on ctb I think.
If a maps has no droplets, then there should be no droplet pp contribution, as simple as that. As for any other case, the PP you get is strongly dependant on how do you compare with others players. For example, if there was a map with 1 droplet and you finished it missing that droplet, you could get 99 pp in the best case. If, in fact, everybody has missed that droplet, you'll get 99 pp ( 99*(1-0)^0.1 ). But if some players did catch that droplet, the pp you'd get will be punished by how many players did better than you. If only 10% of the players catched it, you'd get 97 pp (out of 100); if half the players catched it, you'd get 92 pp; if 90% of the players catched it (meaning you did really bad), you'd get 78 pp. So, the punishment is not that much.-Kurisu- wrote:
What about the possibility where the map has few/no droplets and is still difficult to FC (maybe these https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=119021&m=2, https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=92780&m=2)? Would that still punish a player too much if they FC but miss a droplet? Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your formula, if it accounts for this that would be great (I suck at math can anyone offer feedback also...)
Actually, I think it should be punished more, so I'll think a little bit more about this later.
Sorry for double post, but I made this intentionally, as I felt this deserves its own post
Update on the Formula
As I found the punishment for droplet misses wasn't enough, I thought of a new way to make it harsher. Also, I thought of a way to make it related to the total ammount of droplets in the maps (it's not the same to miss 1 out of 5 droplets than missing 1 out of 100). So, here's the notation I'll use:
MaxPP = Maximum Droplet pp Contribution
TopPP = Maximum pp posible for each class of players (based on droplet misses)
PP = Actual pp given to a class
AF = Acumulated Frequency of all groups with less droplet misses
DF = Diminishing Factor (where 0 < DF < 1)
LL = Lower Limit, percentage of pp a player missing all droplets will get (a number between 0 and 1), based only on droplet misses. It can't be 0.
TD = Total Droplets, the number of droplets of the map.
x = Number of droplet misses
1] Calculate the TopPP for each class using the following formula:
TopPP = floor(MaxPP*exp(x*ln(LL)/TD))
2] Calculate PP given using the diminishing formula based on AF:
PP = floor(TopPP*(1-AF)^DF)
So, now I'll work 4 different examples to show how this formula behaves. Two cases will have TD = 3 droplets and two will have TD = 7 droplets. Also, one map will be harder to SS than the other. They also assume LL = 0.5 and DF = 0.5
Case A: 3 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/3)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/3)) = 79
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/3)) = 62
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/3)) = 50
Example A-1: Easy Map
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 66
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 33
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15
Example A-2: Hard Map
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 76
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 55
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15
Case B: 7 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/7)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/7)) = 90
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/7)) = 82
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/7)) = 74
TopPP_E = floor(100*exp(4*ln(0.5)/7)) = 67
TopPP_F = floor(100*exp(5*ln(0.5)/7)) = 60
TopPP_G = floor(100*exp(6*ln(0.5)/7)) = 55
TopPP_H = floor(100*exp(7*ln(0.5)/7)) = 50
Example B-1: Easy Map
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 75
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.5)^0.5) = 57
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.65)^0.5) = 43
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.75)^0.5) = 33
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.8)^0.5) = 26
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 17
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11
Example B-2: Hard Map
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 87
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.1)^0.5) = 77
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 66
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.4)^0.5) = 51
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 32
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.85)^0.5) = 21
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11
Comments
* In my opinion, this formula works well. Anyway, LL and DF can be adjusted.
Update on the Formula
As I found the punishment for droplet misses wasn't enough, I thought of a new way to make it harsher. Also, I thought of a way to make it related to the total ammount of droplets in the maps (it's not the same to miss 1 out of 5 droplets than missing 1 out of 100). So, here's the notation I'll use:
MaxPP = Maximum Droplet pp Contribution
TopPP = Maximum pp posible for each class of players (based on droplet misses)
PP = Actual pp given to a class
AF = Acumulated Frequency of all groups with less droplet misses
DF = Diminishing Factor (where 0 < DF < 1)
LL = Lower Limit, percentage of pp a player missing all droplets will get (a number between 0 and 1), based only on droplet misses. It can't be 0.
TD = Total Droplets, the number of droplets of the map.
x = Number of droplet misses
1] Calculate the TopPP for each class using the following formula:
TopPP = floor(MaxPP*exp(x*ln(LL)/TD))
2] Calculate PP given using the diminishing formula based on AF:
PP = floor(TopPP*(1-AF)^DF)
So, now I'll work 4 different examples to show how this formula behaves. Two cases will have TD = 3 droplets and two will have TD = 7 droplets. Also, one map will be harder to SS than the other. They also assume LL = 0.5 and DF = 0.5
Case A: 3 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/3)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/3)) = 79
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/3)) = 62
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/3)) = 50
Example A-1: Easy Map
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
D 10% 3
C 20% 2
B 40% 1
A 30% 0
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 66
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 33
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15
Example A-2: Hard Map
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
D 10% 3
C 70% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 76
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 55
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15
Case B: 7 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/7)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/7)) = 90
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/7)) = 82
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/7)) = 74
TopPP_E = floor(100*exp(4*ln(0.5)/7)) = 67
TopPP_F = floor(100*exp(5*ln(0.5)/7)) = 60
TopPP_G = floor(100*exp(6*ln(0.5)/7)) = 55
TopPP_H = floor(100*exp(7*ln(0.5)/7)) = 50
Example B-1: Easy Map
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
H 5% 7
G 5% 6
F 10% 5
E 5% 4
D 10% 3
C 15% 2
B 20% 1
A 30% 0
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 75
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.5)^0.5) = 57
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.65)^0.5) = 43
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.75)^0.5) = 33
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.8)^0.5) = 26
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 17
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11
Example B-2: Hard Map
Group Class Users' frequency Droplet Misses
H 5% 7
G 10% 6
F 15% 5
E 30% 4
D 20% 3
C 10% 2
B 5% 1
A 5% 0
For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 87
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.1)^0.5) = 77
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 66
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.4)^0.5) = 51
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 32
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.85)^0.5) = 21
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11
Comments
* In my opinion, this formula works well. Anyway, LL and DF can be adjusted.
Loctav wrote:
Please keep the discussion structured. If you are incapable to contribute in a constructive manner, your posts will be removed and penalities will be given out.
Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...
The penalty is harsh, but that formula isn't meant to apply to overall pp. If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.Zak wrote:
Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.ZiRoX wrote:
If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
How tp works for standard: http://osutp.net/info, the difficulty is calculated by an algorithm.Amir wrote:
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.ZiRoX wrote:
If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly? Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS? This kind of change is not really has effect at Standard since most good players can handle it easily, but in CtB the map difficulty is a bit lower tho catching droplet sometimes really hard even w/o mod. And in CtB one droplet is only count 10 point step asside from the max combo since it has no effect on it. That 10 point really worth that kind of punishment? Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.Kurokami wrote:
Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough. But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly. Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy. BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:Tenshichan wrote:
Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.
1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc
And maybe that "extra" point can be removed if this is the player is new at that level.
Well this is just a small example, but I think this can be fair enough to all players. I hope its clear enough since I'm kinda tired today. orz
I think the difficulty of the map isn't relevant when it comes to SS or no SS. For example this map: *click*. It is easy to FC even with HD DT, but it is damn hard to get an SS on, as you can see, no one has it actually with HD DT or HD HR. So if someone does the only SS with HD DT, he will automatically get more pp from it than someone who has maybe catched 15 bananas more, because it is obviously way harder to do the SS rank here than getting a good spin.Kurokami wrote:
Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough.
I agree, thats why it should be clearly checked how many players SS'd a certain difficulty with this set of mods. So if there are only 4 of 25 players with SS you will still get a decent bonus for SS. Simple.Kurokami wrote:
But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly.
When there will be 50 players with SS, then SS should clearly not be relevant, but only with the same mod usage that is. For example, we have a mapset, where #1-#4 are HD DT records and the rest are all Hidden SS. If for example #3 managed to do a HD DT SS, he should get a small reward for it, even though there are many SS records with only Hidden mod, so that he maybe gets the same pp amount out of it as #1 with no SS.Kurokami wrote:
Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy.
I don't get it. If a newer player gets a Hidden SS on a hard map, he will certainly get more pp out of it than someone who can do it with ease. Why should a #100 player complain that a #2500 player got more pp for an SS than him. It is obvious that he would get more pp out of it because of his rank, and slowly decreased that amount when he climbs up the ranks.Kurokami wrote:
BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula[...]
Agree, but you are contradicting yourself here.Kurokami wrote:
[...]but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:
1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc
Edit: Zirox formula is actually pretty solid. The only problem I see there is to implement it.
*deleted content*
Forgot everything, I'm tired. I will read it trough once again with a clear head then answer to your post.
Forgot everything, I'm tired. I will read it trough once again with a clear head then answer to your post.
I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps. Take this for example, there isn't a single HD SS so if someone ends up doing it they should receive a bonus for being able to. Now i'm not saying people should get large bonuses or anything but I think maybe getting a extra few pp as a bonus for doing better than most is better than punishing everyone who misses droplets.
A Hidden SS is the maximum amount of "droplet pp" you can gain from a Hidden FC on a map. If you miss a droplet, you will only get a certain percentage of that amount. Still, this "droplet pp" needs to be weighted with the spins and the number of SS ranks with the selected (difficulty increasing) mod(s). So if you FC a hard map with SS, while only 5 other people have SS with the same mod, you will get a certain "bonus". This can be counted on every map, while hard maps automatically give you this kind of "bonus". If you miss a droplet on a map with no Hidden SS, you will still get good pp out of it, but not the maximum "droplet pp".Zak wrote:
I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps.
Have you read my posts completely? It's not meant to apply to overall pp. Think of it as a bonus that decreases with droplet misses. Also, Zak's POV (increasing bonus for better accuracy) can work well. Also, I said there are some values that are just a random try. I made this (http://puu.sh/6SdOh) for you to play. If you think it's too harsh, try using a higher LL value and/or a lower DF value. Also, you can see how a bigger number of droplets makes the thing less harsh (change TD for this) and how the most influential part is how you did compared to other players (changing AF)Kurokami wrote:
Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly?
What I've played or not is really out of discussion. But, FYI, yes.Kurokami wrote:
Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS?
Then let's keep with ppv1, where the pp was based on the rank you got on the map.Kurokami wrote:
Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
It's just an idea about how to handle a specific part of CTB.Kurokami wrote:
I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
They can be rewarded equally. And again, I repeat, my formula is based on a lot of assumptions. One really important point is how to determine MaxPP. Obviously, some maps are harder to SS and the reward for SSing them should be higher and so, MaxPP should be higher. Considering how tp works for standard, if there was something related to Accuracy, one could set MaxPP to be a percentage of this "Accuracy Difficulty Value". As tp re-calculates these values for mod plays, a HD play will have a higher value of Accuracy and MaxPP would be higher for a play with HD. So it is possible for a no-mod SS and a Hidden S to be equally (or similarly) rewared.Kurokami wrote:
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
We'll have to wait on Tom94 for further details.Kurokami wrote:
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
What was a huge flaw in the PP system was shared top ranks with HD, that would reward you with tons of pp. SS shouldn't be worth as much as it was before. Just my thoughts on it.
^ Exactly- Rii - wrote:
sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
when The map is = AR10 but under its not HarderBu Puppet wrote:
^ Exactly- Rii - wrote:
sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harderdt+ar8 and up is hard and more difficult than hr sometimes
Just dropping in to say that a map shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to award pp. It needs to still allow pp for players of all skill levels and not only the ones who can play with hardrock.
Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
Didn't really wanted to post here, but some posts here are missleading or not clear, so about modifiers in CtB:
In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)
- Hidden:
I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.
My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.
Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)
- Hidden:
- AR<=7: HD makes the map way harder to play and should deserve a significant bonus, sadly most AR<=7 maps are easy maps (especially converted ones).
- AR=8: HD start to be less annoying on most maps. It still deserve a significant bonus on hardest AR=8 maps but at this point a huge amount of players can easily play AR=8 maps with HD.
- AR=9: Most players will use HD on AR=9 maps cause it doesn't disturb them anymore, some players says that it actually help them to have HD in AR=9 maps. Most of those plays doesn't deserve any bonuses, however some AR=9 maps using complicated stream patterns would still be awarded by a bonus (the idea here is that HD on AR=9 helps a bit for huge jumps and make precise patterns like streams a bit more difficult)
- AR>=10: I think only 10-20 players in the world plays AR>=10 without HD. A HUGE amount of players will say that it's easier to play AR>=10 with HD. I don't think any bonuses should be deserved for most of those HD plays (Actually a malus would fit better but I think it's a bad idea since it will screw the map rankings)
- Most of FL plays are done in AR=8 mainly on stream maps. I don't know this mode well enough to say more about it.
- AR<7: HR would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR=7: HR start to have a huge effect on many players, clearly deserve a bonus but nothing really huge since most of those maps are pretty easy.
- AR>=8: Everything over this point should deserve a nice bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR<=7: DT would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR=8: Here is the most complicated part. AR=8 maps with many 1/2-1/4 movements and/or really huge jumps and hyperdashes are most likely being harder with DT than with HR. However most AR=8 maps are still easier with DT than HR due to how they're mapped.
- AR=9: I actually don't know any AR=9 map being easier with HR than DT, those FC are rare, even clearing AR=9 maps with DT is challenging for most players. The FC's should get a significant reward since it shows the player capability of reading high speed AR, memorization and ryuuta control.
- AR>9: I don't know any player capable of reading this speed.
I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.
My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.
Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
I use hidden, because it removes some of the clutter from the screen. I have trained myself to stare at the top half of the screen instead of the bottom half. It allows me to react quicker. It isn't by any means a cure all solution for all fast maps. I think this part is determined by skill level. When we can read the notes faster, then we can tackle faster patterns. When the patterns reach your skill boundary then hidden becomes much harder.
I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.
Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.
Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.