what kind of proof do i have to provide to refute this argument?Tom94 wrote:
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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Both are pretty difficult. The extra AR makes it more difficult for me, but I guess it could be seen as easier or harder depending on how well trained your eyes are at reading fast scroll speeds. AR 9 gives you more time (might be a placebo effect) to read the objects. Sometimes it is the case that if you need to read the objects as they are scrolling, you are already taking too much time to hit them correctly.
There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.
Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.
Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
Just a bit curious but, is there any date estimated for this to be done?
IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.
-Ryuujii- wrote:
Why can't you guys just be patient lol xD
This, please, a system bases on real difficulty wouln't need this.alienflybot wrote:
IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.
i got 200 pp today 
new system so op
new system so op
Seph
LOVE & ROLL (isn't FC) > God only knows (FC) ???
and CTB diffs are too overrated.
So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..Seph wrote:
I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
priority seems more legit this time lol
why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)
Then another hard
pls
Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter
best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)
Then another hard
pls
Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter
best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
Yes, because AR10 is 1.5x faster than AR9, and AR9 is 1.5x faster than AR8, and etc-Ryuujii- wrote:
So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..Seph wrote:
I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
so, technically, since you have that less reaction time, AR10 is excessively difficult, much like how much more difficult CS10 is than CS9, and to CS8, and etc.
It's just all game elements that don't appear to make a huge impact, but they really do when you get it to the highest difficulty of these effects.
FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)petiskacang wrote:
priority seems more legit this time lol
why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)
Then another hard
pls
Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter
best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.
It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.
Topic Starter
You can't farm the hard pp maps without close-to-fc scores, let alone with easy mods. It would be nice if you could provide examples of where such things are possible.-PM- wrote:
There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
Topic Starter
Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all.Zak wrote:
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
[Super Shock]_old
[Super Shock] wrote:
How can DakkyChan rang 15....DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
DeathXHunter
DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
lmao119410501 wrote:
DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDDdo you even ask
uguu119410501 wrote:
DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.
although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries
it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.
although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries
it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
---[Super Shock] wrote:
How can DakkyChan rang 13....DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
So, from your explanation, if we miss 1 on a map and catch all the droplets, it will give more PP rather than miss loooots of droplets but FC? oh wellKitokofox wrote:
FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)
FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.
It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.
Seph
Topic Starter
There was a bug that rated some maps too high. Glee Cast - Friday is one of them, which will get fixed today. Can't say anything definite about the other 2, but the difficulty algorithm will get some adjustments either way.Minky wrote:
to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.
although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries
it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
Please someone help the guy outTom94 wrote:
Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all.Zak wrote:
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
New PP, new farming maps.Seph wrote:
Well you really can't change the fact that this version of pp still counts map hoarding though.
there will always be maps picked out if you are good enough to farm them, pp can't be changed to a point of progression, ranking is ranking, no way around it i guess, there will always be shortcuts and tricks of the trade.
you should focuse more on AR10 when you play with HR, and AR9 maps with DT have to be rated higher
I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
This isn't about hard maps giving pp, it's the fact that they should be giving MORE than the not so easy maps, instead of around the same or even less, in ppv1 after getting into around the top 200 getting a good score on a hard map would give nothing unless you get top 20 or so (and sometimes not even then), and that's why ppv2 needs to make maps like that more rewarding.
A nice is example is Kokou no Sousei, in ppv1 rank 4 gave me 0pp but then if I wanted i could go get top 5 on maps that aren't very difficult and I would probably get pp.
None of us are saying that easier end maps shouldn't give pp at all, we're just saying that harder maps need to start giving more so things are somewhat balanced.
A nice is example is Kokou no Sousei, in ppv1 rank 4 gave me 0pp but then if I wanted i could go get top 5 on maps that aren't very difficult and I would probably get pp.
None of us are saying that easier end maps shouldn't give pp at all, we're just saying that harder maps need to start giving more so things are somewhat balanced.
I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?
P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.