They can be rewarded equally. And again, I repeat, my formula is based on a lot of assumptions. One really important point is how to determine MaxPP. Obviously, some maps are harder to SS and the reward for SSing them should be higher and so, MaxPP should be higher. Considering how tp works for standard, if there was something related to Accuracy, one could set MaxPP to be a percentage of this "Accuracy Difficulty Value". As tp re-calculates these values for mod plays, a HD play will have a higher value of Accuracy and MaxPP would be higher for a play with HD. So it is possible for a no-mod SS and a Hidden S to be equally (or similarly) rewared.Kurokami wrote:
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
forum
Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
We'll have to wait on Tom94 for further details.Kurokami wrote:
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*
The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
What was a huge flaw in the PP system was shared top ranks with HD, that would reward you with tons of pp. SS shouldn't be worth as much as it was before. Just my thoughts on it.
^ Exactly- Rii - wrote:
sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
when The map is = AR10 but under its not HarderBu Puppet wrote:
^ Exactly- Rii - wrote:
sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harderdt+ar8 and up is hard and more difficult than hr sometimes
Just dropping in to say that a map shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to award pp. It needs to still allow pp for players of all skill levels and not only the ones who can play with hardrock.
Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
Didn't really wanted to post here, but some posts here are missleading or not clear, so about modifiers in CtB:
In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)
- Hidden:
I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.
My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.
Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)
- Hidden:
- AR<=7: HD makes the map way harder to play and should deserve a significant bonus, sadly most AR<=7 maps are easy maps (especially converted ones).
- AR=8: HD start to be less annoying on most maps. It still deserve a significant bonus on hardest AR=8 maps but at this point a huge amount of players can easily play AR=8 maps with HD.
- AR=9: Most players will use HD on AR=9 maps cause it doesn't disturb them anymore, some players says that it actually help them to have HD in AR=9 maps. Most of those plays doesn't deserve any bonuses, however some AR=9 maps using complicated stream patterns would still be awarded by a bonus (the idea here is that HD on AR=9 helps a bit for huge jumps and make precise patterns like streams a bit more difficult)
- AR>=10: I think only 10-20 players in the world plays AR>=10 without HD. A HUGE amount of players will say that it's easier to play AR>=10 with HD. I don't think any bonuses should be deserved for most of those HD plays (Actually a malus would fit better but I think it's a bad idea since it will screw the map rankings)
- Most of FL plays are done in AR=8 mainly on stream maps. I don't know this mode well enough to say more about it.
- AR<7: HR would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR=7: HR start to have a huge effect on many players, clearly deserve a bonus but nothing really huge since most of those maps are pretty easy.
- AR>=8: Everything over this point should deserve a nice bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR<=7: DT would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- AR=8: Here is the most complicated part. AR=8 maps with many 1/2-1/4 movements and/or really huge jumps and hyperdashes are most likely being harder with DT than with HR. However most AR=8 maps are still easier with DT than HR due to how they're mapped.
- AR=9: I actually don't know any AR=9 map being easier with HR than DT, those FC are rare, even clearing AR=9 maps with DT is challenging for most players. The FC's should get a significant reward since it shows the player capability of reading high speed AR, memorization and ryuuta control.
- AR>9: I don't know any player capable of reading this speed.
I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.
My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.
Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
I use hidden, because it removes some of the clutter from the screen. I have trained myself to stare at the top half of the screen instead of the bottom half. It allows me to react quicker. It isn't by any means a cure all solution for all fast maps. I think this part is determined by skill level. When we can read the notes faster, then we can tackle faster patterns. When the patterns reach your skill boundary then hidden becomes much harder.
I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.
Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.
Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
+1DeathXHunter wrote:
After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.
You were right
Topic Starter
Hey everyone, I've got an initial iteration of the algorithm to show. Please remember to tell me which version you are talking about when giving feedback. Also please let me know which tuning seems the best to you. 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 3emc#gid=1
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 3emc#gid=1
"1.5 direction with converts" seems to actually work the best imo. But hard to say, there's so many maps.
Also some maps seems to get overrated on all versions, like "Can't Defeat Airman [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]" and "Kokou no Sousei [Collab]".
Also some maps seems to get overrated on all versions, like "Can't Defeat Airman [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]" and "Kokou no Sousei [Collab]".
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
Topic Starter
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.Tom94 wrote:
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
Topic Starter
As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.Rorona wrote:
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2
Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2
Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
Is this the same in standard?Tom94 wrote:
As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.Rorona wrote:
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
And if so, how come?
Topic Starter
Yeah, it is the same in standard. Mainly because it doesn't really connect well with something like "aim" or "speed". Secondly there are many varying opinions - some people saying AR10 would be easier than 9 and others telling me the opposite.VelperK wrote:
Is this the same in standard?
And if so, how come?
It is factored in for pp calculations, so don't worry about that part.
Yes, they're hard.Luna wrote:
I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2
Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
Pretty sure I gave this to Tom94 earlier. I hope this better explains my full intent of CtB and it's performance point calculation.Kitokofox wrote:
So, I ended up sharing this to Tom94. I want to see everyone's honest and unbiased opinions.Kitokofox wrote:
Catch The Beat calculation methods
Catch The Beat is different in multiple ways, by how jumps work and how streams work, mostly. Playing on a 2D plane is a lot diffrent from standard osu!, along with the predefined movement speeds of the catcher. Thus, skill based calculations based on the limitations of Ryuuta among other things must be taken in account for.
There are some main factors which determine how difficult a map is for Catch The Beat:
Map Settings This goes back to the basics.
- Approach rate: This should be documented in difficulty by the actual drop rate of the fruits. This also gives AR10 the much needed skill requirement it actually calls for.
- Fruit Size: This is pretty obvious. The smaller the fruits, the harder they are to catch accurately. Skill requirement is based on the field in which you can actually catch the fruit, rather than the size itself.
- Overall Difficulty: I don't know how this is handled in the map, but as far as I know it only affects the HP loss when missing. I don't think that applies too much to skill, but for players who can just barely pass a song, this would come into play.
- HP Drain Rate: Same as above, only comes into play for those barely making a map.
Beat Placement Factors based on the placement of sliders and circles themselves
- Movement: How much the catcher needs to move to catch the fruits. In stream maps like Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, this would become classified as less difficult since you don't have to click and simply inch the catcher, where in the system used for standard, it would be classified as difficult otherwise.
- Jumpiness: This is the general distance between beats, based on how fast the catcher must move. This also applied to sliders and their slider ticks. This also heightens more based on the general theta of jumps in a row (especially hyperdashes in a row) What I mean by theta of jumps in a row, as in a map with periodic jumps is probably more difficult than one with one part of it having multiple in a row (This sort of compares and contrasts between kinds of jumps and what kind of skill and perseverance is required to acquire a good score) Also, generally, faster hyperdashes are harder to chain off of, e.g. Can't Defeat Airman!.
- Speed: This is how fast the catcher needs to move around in succession. This would rate maps like val0108's Talent Shredder or With A Dance Number as high skill examples for this sector, mainly because of how fast the catcher needs to switch one direction to another and how fast of fingers the player needs.
- Long jumps: Originally pixel jumps, these are jumps that are enough for the catcher to reach with the new hyperdash system, but still require precision placement to catch, as well as timing. An example can be seen in Wild Eyes [JAMES DIFFICULTY!!!] As it has long but viable jumps.
Mode Specifics and Other Stuff
- Mode Specific Maps: Don't need to be buffed. They are probably already difficult as it is with the algorithm that's in place. Plus, it was set this way to entice players to play those maps. This pp system focuses on the player's skill, and tries to measure the skill needed for each beatmap, so making bonuses of that sort is incorrect to ranking..
- Fruits before and after spinners: The time before spinners and after spinners doesn't need to be checked because of how bananas aren't necessary to a full combo.
- Accuracy: In general, accuracy is easier to come by in Catch The Beat, and as such, changes may be made accordingly.
what kind of proof do i have to provide to refute this argument?Tom94 wrote:
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:TheVileOne wrote:
I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.
This issue affects both models.
I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.
Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.
My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.
The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
Both are pretty difficult. The extra AR makes it more difficult for me, but I guess it could be seen as easier or harder depending on how well trained your eyes are at reading fast scroll speeds. AR 9 gives you more time (might be a placebo effect) to read the objects. Sometimes it is the case that if you need to read the objects as they are scrolling, you are already taking too much time to hit them correctly.
There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.
Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.
Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
Just a bit curious but, is there any date estimated for this to be done?
IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.
-Ryuujii- wrote:
Why can't you guys just be patient lol xD
This, please, a system bases on real difficulty wouln't need this.alienflybot wrote:
IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.
i got 200 pp today new system so op
new system so op
Seph
LOVE & ROLL (isn't FC) > God only knows (FC) ???
and CTB diffs are too overrated.
So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..Seph wrote:
I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
priority seems more legit this time lol
why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)
Then another hard
pls
Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter
best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)
Then another hard
pls
Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter
best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
Yes, because AR10 is 1.5x faster than AR9, and AR9 is 1.5x faster than AR8, and etc-Ryuujii- wrote:
So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..Seph wrote:
I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
so, technically, since you have that less reaction time, AR10 is excessively difficult, much like how much more difficult CS10 is than CS9, and to CS8, and etc.
It's just all game elements that don't appear to make a huge impact, but they really do when you get it to the highest difficulty of these effects.
FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)petiskacang wrote:
priority seems more legit this time lol
why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)
Then another hard
pls
Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter
best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.
It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.
Topic Starter
You can't farm the hard pp maps without close-to-fc scores, let alone with easy mods. It would be nice if you could provide examples of where such things are possible.-PM- wrote:
There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
Topic Starter
Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all.Zak wrote:
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
[Super Shock]_old
[Super Shock] wrote:
How can DakkyChan rang 15....DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
DeathXHunter
DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
lmao119410501 wrote:
DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDDdo you even ask
uguu119410501 wrote:
DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.
although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries
it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.
although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries
it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
---[Super Shock] wrote:
How can DakkyChan rang 13....DakkyChan wrote:
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
So, from your explanation, if we miss 1 on a map and catch all the droplets, it will give more PP rather than miss loooots of droplets but FC? oh wellKitokofox wrote:
FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)
FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.
It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.
Seph
Topic Starter
There was a bug that rated some maps too high. Glee Cast - Friday is one of them, which will get fixed today. Can't say anything definite about the other 2, but the difficulty algorithm will get some adjustments either way.Minky wrote:
to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.
although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries
it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
Please someone help the guy outTom94 wrote:
Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all.Zak wrote:
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
New PP, new farming maps.Seph wrote:
Well you really can't change the fact that this version of pp still counts map hoarding though.
there will always be maps picked out if you are good enough to farm them, pp can't be changed to a point of progression, ranking is ranking, no way around it i guess, there will always be shortcuts and tricks of the trade.
you should focuse more on AR10 when you play with HR, and AR9 maps with DT have to be rated higher
I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
This isn't about hard maps giving pp, it's the fact that they should be giving MORE than the not so easy maps, instead of around the same or even less, in ppv1 after getting into around the top 200 getting a good score on a hard map would give nothing unless you get top 20 or so (and sometimes not even then), and that's why ppv2 needs to make maps like that more rewarding.
A nice is example is Kokou no Sousei, in ppv1 rank 4 gave me 0pp but then if I wanted i could go get top 5 on maps that aren't very difficult and I would probably get pp.
None of us are saying that easier end maps shouldn't give pp at all, we're just saying that harder maps need to start giving more so things are somewhat balanced.
A nice is example is Kokou no Sousei, in ppv1 rank 4 gave me 0pp but then if I wanted i could go get top 5 on maps that aren't very difficult and I would probably get pp.
None of us are saying that easier end maps shouldn't give pp at all, we're just saying that harder maps need to start giving more so things are somewhat balanced.
I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?
P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
Seph
Topic Starter
Such a list is in the opening post of this thread.TenguKing9 wrote:
I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?
P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
When did you look through top performances? A bug regarding some nomod weightings has been fixed this morning.
I looked through about 35 mins ago. No mod and HD are fine but HR,DT, and FL are not giving a bonus from what it looks like.Tom94 wrote:
Such a list is in the opening post of this thread.TenguKing9 wrote:
I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?
P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
When did you look through top performances? A bug regarding some nomod weightings has been fixed this morning.
Topic Starter
Only if the pro guy literally has one good score and only shit others... which is very unlikely. Believe me, outweighting good plays with worse ones is ridiculously hard in this system, unless map weighting is malfunctioning for easier maps.Seph wrote:
A player who focuses on heavily weighted maps can still be outranked by a player who has played more not-so-hard maps than him.
Like, 50 regular maps > 1 super hard map when it comes to pp gain
I don't really like the list all that much as pretty much everything near the top is unranked, most of those maps I've never even played and I'm not sure just how many people have either to be able to compare difficulty, seeing more of the harder ranked maps would help compare as it's more likely people will know what those play like to be able to compare them properly. It would probably be a good idea to get some higher skilled players who have a pretty good grasp on what makes the maps difficult and have them help out on figuring out a good way to calculate difficulty.
nothing changed on pp v2 in ctb only new farming maps XDDDDDDDDD
If you're going to complain about ppv2 at least try and give advice on how to improve it instead of making pointless posts with no content.DakkyChan wrote:
nothing changed on pp v2 in ctb only new farming maps XDDDDDDDDD
I'm not saying I complain about HOW PP IS, I complain about PP.TheVileOne wrote:
I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
There's no way to improve pp, make pp a real skills portrait, balance pp maps amounts with pp really hard maps.
PP will never work.
Once again I say it was so pleasant to see players' stats without ranks.
And what I and Dakky said, is just a fact, the unchangeable nature of PP, until it'll exist.
If you don't care about pp what are you doing here andrea, give me some pizza and pasta for jesuschrist.119410501 wrote:
I'm not saying I complain about HOW PP IS, I complain about PP.TheVileOne wrote:
I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
There's no way to improve pp, make pp a real skills portrait, balance pp maps amounts with pp really hard maps.
PP will never work.
Once again I say it was so pleasant to see players' stats without ranks.
And what I and Dakky said, is just a fact, the unchangeable nature of PP, until it'll exist.
farming posts countseicHmsc wrote:
If you don't care about pp what are you doing here andrea, give me some pizza and pasta for jesuschrist.119410501 wrote:
I'm not saying I complain about HOW PP IS, I complain about PP.
There's no way to improve pp, make pp a real skills portrait, balance pp maps amounts with pp really hard maps.
PP will never work.
Once again I say it was so pleasant to see players' stats without ranks.
And what I and Dakky said, is just a fact, the unchangeable nature of PP, until it'll exist.
no pizza available at 2:10 AM, come back later ! ! !
Seph
That would still mean noobs couldn't farm even a bit, and pros would farm insanesSeph wrote:
The only way to remove PP farming is to not include easy/normals/hards (unless those hards really do give some challenge, besides adding HR/DT)
simply put, manually adding maps, but that would be a pain in the ass
That would kill the majority's fun.Seph wrote:
Well ppv2 is SKILL based, so that just makes sense.
PP for everyone or PP for no one.
And I'd go for the second option.
Why is that necessary?Seph wrote:
The only way to remove PP farming is to not include easy/normals/hards (unless those hards really do give some challenge, besides adding HR/DT)
simply put, manually adding maps, but that would be a pain in the ass
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).
Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
HT and EZ plays shouldn't give that much, I have an HT on my best performance = ='
Seph
how did that become 2100pp when 300+200=500 watFull Tablet wrote:
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).
Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
and who knows, the calculation MIGHT go wrong, and I'm only not referring to easy maps, some
Awarding pp should still be based on relative rank and your relative performances. I believe it still is even with the new changes. It is incorrect to say that removing the value of Easy/Normal/Hard modes will resolve this problem. Noone is saying that Easy/Normal/Hards can be farmed under the new system and unless it is a bug with the system, they shouldn't be able to be farmed under the new system for people who have not moved on to maps far above that skill range.
Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.
The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.
The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
wish i knew how to play with mods :v went from rank 60 usa 1200 overall to 2300 overal and 120~ usa after you fixed the weightedness of no mods
Topic Starter
TheVileOne wrote:
Awarding pp should still be based on relative rank and your relative performances. I believe it still is even with the new changes. It is incorrect to say that removing the value of Easy/Normal/Hard modes will resolve this problem. Noone is saying that Easy/Normal/Hards can be farmed under the new system and unless it is a bug with the system, they shouldn't be able to be farmed under the new system for people who have not moved on to maps far above that skill range.
Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.
The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
I think you both don't quite understand how pp works. The total pp of a player isn't just his 20 best plays added up or something. The plays are individually weighted by how far up they are.Seph wrote:
how did that become 2100pp when 300+200=500 watFull Tablet wrote:
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).
Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
and who knows, the calculation MIGHT go wrong, and I'm only not referring to easy maps, someokayhard diffs (not insanes okay) gives insane amounts of pp, you just gotta look for them. anyhow this still doesn't change the fact that you can still pp hoard so w/e
A player's best play is weighted the most, the second best play a little bit less, the third best play a bit less again, and so on. The exact formula is:
Total pp = (1st Score's pp) * X^0 + (2nd Score's pp) * X^1 + (3rd Score's pp) * X^2 + ... + (nth Score's pp) * X^(n-1)
where is slightly below 1. For instance 0.95.
This way only the best scores of a player are relevant.
If hards, normals or easys are worth too much, then please let me know. It probably is connected to a bug in the algorithm.
I think you both don't quite understand how pp works. The total pp of a player isn't just his 20 best plays added up or something. The plays are individually weighted by how far up they are.i know this isnt a big deal, but do you think you can make it so pp shows up to the 2nd decimal? right now if you have 3000.05 pp it only shows up as 3000 pp, would make tracking pp easier for players especially since most people are probably only getting a fragment of 1 pp per map
A player's best play is weighted the most, the second best play a little bit less, the third best play a bit less again, and so on. The exact formula is:
Total pp = (1st Score's pp) * X^0 + (2nd Score's pp) * X^1 + (3rd Score's pp) * X^2 + ... + (nth Score's pp) * X^(n-1)
where is slightly below 1. For instance 0.95.
This way only the best scores of a player are relevant.
If hards, normals or easys are worth too much, then please let me know. It probably is connected to a bug in the algorithm.
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
theres a very simple reason as to why we need pp, osu was and should always be considered competitive, having fun is just part of the game, we need some form of ranking system or a significant portion of the players (myself included, and quite a bit of people i know) will stop playing out of boredom, i stopped playing osu after the pp system went down because it was boring, i didnt feel i was getting better (simply being able to beat a map i couldnt beat before does not mean i got better, it just means ive played the song enough to not miss on it (someone else in this thread agrees with me on this aspect)TheVileOne wrote:
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
it's march and people are still having problems on if pp or ranking should exist in the game, the answer is yes, if there is no ranking then theres no competitive value, if you want to be a casual then you already are one, you've been one since you started this game, idk why people get this idea that casual's didn't exist in ppv1, i can name like 20 off the top of my head, just don't play the game for ranks but for fun, so why in your mind you think that you have complain and say ranking is stupid, a lot of people in this thread would have not got better if it wasn't for those hours and weeks of grinding one map to show people that your a fruit catching badass LOL -cough cough 119- also to provide ppv2 feedback, make maps that not a lot of people FC, very heavily weighed, like distorted love song or Atama no Taisou [Angel Honey] Dakky is #1 with HR, I'm not sure why that's not on top 5 performances, because if you can pull that off, then your good as fark, that is the #1 thing that bothers me in ppv2, when HR is not special and being top 8 on a very difficult map.-Tachibana- wrote:
theres a very simple reason as to why we need pp, osu was and should always be considered competitive, having fun is just part of the game, we need some form of ranking system or a significant portion of the players (myself included, and quite a bit of people i know) will stop playing out of boredom, i stopped playing osu after the pp system went down because it was boring, i didnt feel i was getting better (simply being able to beat a map i couldnt beat before does not mean i got better, it just means ive played the song enough to not miss on it (someone else in this thread agrees with me on this aspect)TheVileOne wrote:
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
We don't neccessarily need pp for competition. If you want real competition then join a multiplayer match. Tells you more about your actual skill than some inaccurate number. There are players having a lower pp rank than me who can easily beat me in a match.
Sure, there are different things you can have fun in the game. Fun to farm pp, or in my case, fun to farm a lot of score. But most importantly, I have fun with the game itself and not just advancing in some ranking. If you quit when there is no ranking around it means to me you don't have fun with the game itself enough.
I don't value the pp system, but I also don't mind having it around. I will always be a casual player.
And to be more ontopic again: Mods definitely need to be weighted more than they are now.
CTB diffs are way too overrated and so are maps with lots of long jump. Maps with a lot of weird converted patterns aren't mentioned at all.
I think this first needs a review, because maybe calculation wrong on this kind of maps?
Sure, there are different things you can have fun in the game. Fun to farm pp, or in my case, fun to farm a lot of score. But most importantly, I have fun with the game itself and not just advancing in some ranking. If you quit when there is no ranking around it means to me you don't have fun with the game itself enough.
I don't value the pp system, but I also don't mind having it around. I will always be a casual player.
And to be more ontopic again: Mods definitely need to be weighted more than they are now.
CTB diffs are way too overrated and so are maps with lots of long jump. Maps with a lot of weird converted patterns aren't mentioned at all.
I think this first needs a review, because maybe calculation wrong on this kind of maps?
Topic Starter
But that's what the current weighting already does. Instead of having fixed hard-thresholds it's a smooth function. No other difference.TheVileOne wrote:
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
If I were to implement hard thresholds, then pp gain would become very jumpy, unpredictable and illogical in various corner cases. It's not be a good idea and it's result in lots of confusion and complaints due to the jumpy nature. Just look at how many complaints already exist about "I didn't get pp but i should!!!" or "this map gave me more than the other!!!". Those scenarios would become common as part of the system.
I support that, it will do pp more intuitive imo because you can do an insane map and get 0.05 pp, and you know that your work is recognized.-Tachibana- wrote:
i know this isnt a big deal, but do you think you can make it so pp shows up to the 2nd decimal? right now if you have 3000.05 pp it only shows up as 3000 pp, would make tracking pp easier for players especially since most people are probably only getting a fragment of 1 pp per map
FYI I was not making a suggestion. I was only making a response addresses to those who are thinking that farming is an issue with the new system. There should be no way to farm your way into a rank that doesn't reflect your capable level of play compared to those around your rank, at least when you get into the top 5000. If you find maps that constantly give you pp, then these maps should be considered more difficult than maps that were rated as giving less pp in your list of performances (before weighting).
There is usually some wiggle room as you move into the next tier of play. Someone who mysteriously one day starts playing songs with more proficiency, and starts performing well at songs he could not previously compete will find himself rapidly moving up the ranks, because each one of these plays will be better than plays he previously acquired. He/she is moving towards the next tier of skill/performance in the ranking. You could call this rapid gain of pp by playing better as farming. Farming is not a bad thing if it is because the player is truly getting better at playing or just playing better.
There is no amount of farming I could do to get me to rank 1500 from where I am at. It would take many many tries to get to the next tier. I am probably underestimating how much pp it takes to progress x number of ranks. I am curious about what percentile of plays in your performance list have considerable impact on your rank. What range is the bulk of your pp located? At what point is the worth of a performance is greatly diminished or doesn't have a very high impact on rank?
Will you and do you collect data on performance trends? Maybe it would be useful to analyze such data in order to determine problems with the system, and just for statistics reasons. I guess it doesn't have to be publicly available to prevent people from maximizing their pp, by filling their lists with similarly valued songs within their skill level, but some data might be safe to release.
You could allow us to view how our pp is distributed amongst our top 1000 performances. (Is it still only 1000 or did you happen to include more plays?) We could then infer things about our own true skill levels based on whether our pp values are based on a few songs or the culmination of many songs. We could have an average performance that will tell us where we are in terms of skill level. Are we better at aim, or accuracy? Do we prefer a certain mod? What mods do other player prefer at x rank? There is a ton of data that can plotted into graphs that could be used to evaluate one person's skill level to another person's and not only one facet of skill, but several different facets.
Tell me if this is better written in a feature request.
There is usually some wiggle room as you move into the next tier of play. Someone who mysteriously one day starts playing songs with more proficiency, and starts performing well at songs he could not previously compete will find himself rapidly moving up the ranks, because each one of these plays will be better than plays he previously acquired. He/she is moving towards the next tier of skill/performance in the ranking. You could call this rapid gain of pp by playing better as farming. Farming is not a bad thing if it is because the player is truly getting better at playing or just playing better.
There is no amount of farming I could do to get me to rank 1500 from where I am at. It would take many many tries to get to the next tier. I am probably underestimating how much pp it takes to progress x number of ranks. I am curious about what percentile of plays in your performance list have considerable impact on your rank. What range is the bulk of your pp located? At what point is the worth of a performance is greatly diminished or doesn't have a very high impact on rank?
Will you and do you collect data on performance trends? Maybe it would be useful to analyze such data in order to determine problems with the system, and just for statistics reasons. I guess it doesn't have to be publicly available to prevent people from maximizing their pp, by filling their lists with similarly valued songs within their skill level, but some data might be safe to release.
You could allow us to view how our pp is distributed amongst our top 1000 performances. (Is it still only 1000 or did you happen to include more plays?) We could then infer things about our own true skill levels based on whether our pp values are based on a few songs or the culmination of many songs. We could have an average performance that will tell us where we are in terms of skill level. Are we better at aim, or accuracy? Do we prefer a certain mod? What mods do other player prefer at x rank? There is a ton of data that can plotted into graphs that could be used to evaluate one person's skill level to another person's and not only one facet of skill, but several different facets.
Tell me if this is better written in a feature request.
Topic Starter
Yup, there is analyzing happening. Having the weights display in the best performances also is an option.TheVileOne wrote:
FYI I was not making a suggestion. I was only making a response addresses to those who are thinking that farming is an issue with the new system. There should be no way to farm your way into a rank that doesn't reflect your capable level of play compared to those around your rank, at least when you get into the top 5000. If you find maps that constantly give you pp, then these maps should be considered more difficult than maps that were rated as giving less pp in your list of performances (before weighting).
There is usually some wiggle room as you move into the next tier of play. Someone who mysteriously one day starts playing songs with more proficiency, and starts performing well at songs he could not previously compete will find himself rapidly moving up the ranks, because each one of these plays will be better than plays he previously acquired. He/she is moving towards the next tier of skill/performance in the ranking. You could call this rapid gain of pp by playing better as farming. Farming is not a bad thing if it is because the player is truly getting better at playing or just playing better.
There is no amount of farming I could do to get me to rank 1500 from where I am at. It would take many many tries to get to the next tier. I am probably underestimating how much pp it takes to progress x number of ranks. I am curious about what percentile of plays in your performance list have considerable impact on your rank. What range is the bulk of your pp located? At what point is the worth of a performance is greatly diminished or doesn't have a very high impact on rank?
Will you and do you collect data on performance trends? Maybe it would be useful to analyze such data in order to determine problems with the system, and just for statistics reasons. I guess it doesn't have to be publicly available to prevent people from maximizing their pp, by filling their lists with similarly valued songs within their skill level, but some data might be safe to release.
You could allow us to view how our pp is distributed amongst our top 1000 performances. (Is it still only 1000 or did you happen to include more plays?) We could then infer things about our own true skill levels based on whether our pp values are based on a few songs or the culmination of many songs. We could have an average performance that will tell us where we are in terms of skill level. Are we better at aim, or accuracy? Do we prefer a certain mod? What mods do other player prefer at x rank? There is a ton of data that can plotted into graphs that could be used to evaluate one person's skill level to another person's and not only one facet of skill, but several different facets.
Actually all plays are included, but capping it at 1000 wouldn't really make any difference. It'd be less than 0.000000001 pp.
As a general guideline: Your best play is worth all of its pp. Your 20th play is worth around 38% of its pp and your 50th best play if worth around 8.1% of its pp. Your 100th best play is at 0.6%, which gets close to worthless.
Yes, X is 0.95, saving those the hassle who want to reverse-engineer it from those values.
Displaying seperate performance stats like aim, speed, acc and so on is something I wish can be done at some point.
And will there be a strong relation between the difficulty rating of a map and how much pp it will be worth? Will the rating be adjusted when you add mods?
I kind of want to know what can be inferred about our top performances. Will they represent maps that are relatively high in difficulty in general and all maps with that general difficulty rating will be evaluated similarly? I want to know why my current top 10 performances are more special than all the other plays I make.
Look at https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86044&m=2
I am ranked #293 with 3417 combo. Sure I don't use a mod, but it's a marathon map. It's easier to miss and there are jumps in it. High combo doesn't seem to matter as much. I'm not sure where this is in comparison to my top performances, but I feel it's better than some of the performances that I have in my top 10. I'm not playing with hidden like the songs in my top list, but 3417 combo has to be worth a top spot over a hidden play. The top player on the score board has missing fruits and noone has set a score with no missed fruits. 17 players overall set a score with hidden at the top ranks and the top ranks list is littered with multiple fruit misses and the top no mod play has 3795 combo.
Is it because my accuracy (99.06%) is bringing the performance down? It is common to see misses when it comes to marathon maps. I think you should be giving extra weight for keeping combo in longer maps. Even if most of it is streams instead of aim intensive patterns, it's easier to make a mistake and it ruins your chance at a top ranking. You can't easily perform well on these maps, because of how much time it takes to get consistent at them.
Also keep in mind for this case that a large amount of my missed fruits is because of the harder part of the song halfway in. Most players will miss at that one pattern.
Are stream filled maps without intense jumps considered relatively low in difficulty? I would think that stream filled marathon maps should be rated fairly high in difficulty to FC. If you consider each element individually, then it's not that difficult, but together you still need to hit dozens of different patterns, and there are jumps (hyper and otherwise) spread throughout the difficulty. The chance that you will screw up somewhere is very high. The same goes for other fast stream maps. Even a very small mistake will influence a miss and basically require a restart of the map in order to compete.
I kind of want to know what can be inferred about our top performances. Will they represent maps that are relatively high in difficulty in general and all maps with that general difficulty rating will be evaluated similarly? I want to know why my current top 10 performances are more special than all the other plays I make.
Look at https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86044&m=2
I am ranked #293 with 3417 combo. Sure I don't use a mod, but it's a marathon map. It's easier to miss and there are jumps in it. High combo doesn't seem to matter as much. I'm not sure where this is in comparison to my top performances, but I feel it's better than some of the performances that I have in my top 10. I'm not playing with hidden like the songs in my top list, but 3417 combo has to be worth a top spot over a hidden play. The top player on the score board has missing fruits and noone has set a score with no missed fruits. 17 players overall set a score with hidden at the top ranks and the top ranks list is littered with multiple fruit misses and the top no mod play has 3795 combo.
Is it because my accuracy (99.06%) is bringing the performance down? It is common to see misses when it comes to marathon maps. I think you should be giving extra weight for keeping combo in longer maps. Even if most of it is streams instead of aim intensive patterns, it's easier to make a mistake and it ruins your chance at a top ranking. You can't easily perform well on these maps, because of how much time it takes to get consistent at them.
Also keep in mind for this case that a large amount of my missed fruits is because of the harder part of the song halfway in. Most players will miss at that one pattern.
Are stream filled maps without intense jumps considered relatively low in difficulty? I would think that stream filled marathon maps should be rated fairly high in difficulty to FC. If you consider each element individually, then it's not that difficult, but together you still need to hit dozens of different patterns, and there are jumps (hyper and otherwise) spread throughout the difficulty. The chance that you will screw up somewhere is very high. The same goes for other fast stream maps. Even a very small mistake will influence a miss and basically require a restart of the map in order to compete.
thats not soo true, it's not as draining to focus in CTB as in Stanadard aslong the AR and CS are not to high, for example i played paramax 7xtimes and always FC'ed it. same with most other marathons i tried more then onesTheVileOne wrote:
I think you should be giving extra weight for keeping combo in longer maps. Even if most of it is streams instead of aim intensive patterns, it's easier to make a mistake and it ruins your chance at a top ranking. You can't easily perform well on these maps, because of how much time it takes to get consistent at them
I'm referring to stream related marathons. I'm thinking that in this particular cases and perhaps others that difficulty is being downgraded, because of all the streams in between each jumpy pattern. We're talking about a map that literally has no one person on the list who has not missed a fruit (fruit, not droplet). The streams require constant left and right adjustments to hit. It's not like all the fruits are in straight lines for most of the time.
Maybe it's not an issue. It's hard to say until I know what level the song is. Anyways I think that getting over 3000 combo is this song in CTB is impressive. It may not be top tier, super omg difficult to do, but it shows that you can play long bouts of constant gameplay sections without missing.
Maybe it's not an issue. It's hard to say until I know what level the song is. Anyways I think that getting over 3000 combo is this song in CTB is impressive. It may not be top tier, super omg difficult to do, but it shows that you can play long bouts of constant gameplay sections without missing.
i agree with vile, stamina (or concentration, what ever you wanna call it) is definitely a skill that should be thrown into the equation, clearly if no one has ever gotten a FC on the song, even if it isnt ar10 it shows that the song is hard enough to warrant more pp
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
what......lol. i completely disagree with this,no point.-Tachibana- wrote:
i agree with vile, stamina (or concentration, what ever you wanna call it) is definitely a skill that should be thrown into the equation, clearly if no one has ever gotten a FC on the song, even if it isnt ar10 it shows that the song is hard enough to warrant more pp
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
-Ryuujii- wrote:
what......lol. i completely disagree with this,no point.-Tachibana- wrote:
i agree with vile, stamina (or concentration, what ever you wanna call it) is definitely a skill that should be thrown into the equation, clearly if no one has ever gotten a FC on the song, even if it isnt ar10 it shows that the song is hard enough to warrant more pp
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
ill give you an example, are you saying that marathon runners are not equally if not more fit than sprinters?