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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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eldnl
I guess you can leave OD out of this discussion because it doesn't affect the ctb gameplay.
Another thing to add: Do not give more pp for ctb difficulties, they should be rated as every other map, as some people said, there are some non-specific maps that are way harder than ctb specific ones.
-PM-

TenguKing9 wrote:

I have a few suggestions that I would like to give for this system:

1. As DeathXHunter said before, SS should have less weight in the formula since it's easier to SS in Catch The Beat compared to other modes.
I never agree. SS is easy in CTB compared to other modes, of course. But then how can you give an explanation that old map, for example? There are many map for weird sliders and small CS. In some map of them, it is more hard to rank SS in CTB rather than other modes. rank higher accuracy is great abillity too. I hope to don't overlook that. In addition, if make less weight of SS, how many users strive to do rank SS? Then many users will be don't really work to do rank SS but just aim to FC and spins. How could be SS FC same with S or A, B, C, D FC on the earth?

TenguKing9 wrote:

2. Since FL is heavily based on memorization rather than actual skill it should be weighed a bit less than no mod plays.

alienflybot wrote:

FlashLight (FL) - In my opinion this would be the mod that gives the least pp. FL tests player's memorization, which is just acting the same thing as No-Mod does, but with some black areas around the ryuuta. I think using FL just only need memorization, which should not worth that many pp.
FL just only need memorization? How many did you played FL? Especially, i want to ask you about have you played FL on AR 7, 8, 9 maps. To jump to the conclusion about FL is heavily based rather than actual skill, "No". I guess you don't know about what is FL actually. FL needs many actual skills. Many FL on AR 6- map maybe just need memorization. But so did AR 7+? As like AFB says, FL mod makes some black areas (Invisible) around the ryuuta. And the areas dimished when you catch the fruits 100, 200+ combo. You can never see any fruits on black areas. you can just depend on narrow lightning (Visible) areas. So you will be feel higher AR when you playing FL on whatever map. As you know, when you add HR or DT, that makes AR higher. FL so does. When you playing FL, you have to make combo in limited sight. It needs memorization, control, and adapt to higher AR. Bonus score is higher in HD+DT than FL but FL is very difficult in many AR7+ maps than HD+DT. Please play FL on AR7+ maps and think about why FL players are fewest in 4 modes.

Therefore, i disagree absolutely about make less weight pp of SS and FL on ppv2! They're have to keep on going like ppv1!
- My opinion
DeathXHunter
Totally not biased *cough* http://puu.sh/6HeMy.png

He said it should be less considered than it is in ppv1 and not totally ignored because it's infact the easiest mode to get an SS. About FL,I don't care,it's shit anyways.
CLSW
Pessimism everywhere...
Have you ever tried to be SS player and FL? It's just like someone who can't pass some beatmap criticizes like 'OMG THIS MAP IS SHIT'

About FL,I don't care,it's shit anyways.
Oh well, I hate FL, too. But please, this is a discussion.

I said that as a CtB player, not as a Korean.

I'm not a pro FL player so I won't, but about the SS, I think setting the players' most frequency droplet misses as a point criteria is better.
Some maps are easy, but some maps (especially maps in 2008~2009s, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2)are hard to SS.

Users' frequency   Percent of pp   Droplet misses
50%(the most)    10%        3
20%          13%         2
10%        20%          1
2%         30%          0

Like this, If you can't understand I'm sorry for poor language.
autofanboy
Aight then

So there should be a function that can calculate what mod the player rely on.

For example:
(A player's records)
HR FC - 20
DT FC - 10
HD FC - 55
FL FC - 200

So he relied on FL more than the other mods, so when he uses FL on the other maps/diffs, he may get less pp than using other mods.
eldnl
FL is the hardest mod so far in AR9+
ZiRoX

CLSW wrote:

I think setting the players' most frequency droplet misses as a point criteria is better.
Some maps are easy, but some maps (especially maps in 2008~2009s, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=6097&m=2)are hard to SS.

Users' frequency   Percent of pp   Droplet misses
50%(the most)    10%        3
20%          13%         2
10%        20%          1
2%         30%          0

Like this, If you can't understand I'm sorry for poor language.
Notation used in this post:
AF = Acumulated Frequency of all groups with less droplet misses
DF = Diminishing Factor (where 0 < DF < 1)
BPF = Best Performance Factor (BPF > 1, here it is assumed that BPF = 1.01)

This seems like a good idea. And it can be worked, and here's an way: plays are sorted by droplet misses and the frequency of users with 'x' droplets misses is calculated. For the group with less droplet misses, pp given (BestPP) might be calculated as BestPP = MaxPP/BPF^(Droplet Misses). For the following groups, PP might be calculated as PP = floor(BestPP*(1- AF)^DF) (you'll see the reason for this DF later)

I'll do 4 examples, two assuming DF = 1 (Case A) and two assuming DF = 0.1 (Case B). In both cases, one example will be with players having 0 droplet misses and the other one with best plays having (at least) 1 droplet miss. Also, we'll assume the maps gives 100pp max and all scores are FC no mod.

Case A: DF = 1
A-1: There are plays with 0 droplet misses, so we'll consider the following distribution:

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
F 10% 5
E 15% 4
D 30% 3
C 25% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0

Group A would get 100pp (max possible, BestPP = 100/1.01^0 = 100)
For Group B, AF = 5%. So, PP_B= 100*(1-0.05) = 95
For Group C, AF= 5% + 15% = 20%. Therefore, PP_C = 100*(1-0.2) = 80
Similarly, PP_D = 55, PP_E = 25, PP_F = 10

A-2: Best play has (at least) 1 droplet miss, so we'll consider the following distribution:

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
E 10% 5
D 15% 4
C 30% 3
B 25% 2
A 20% 1

Group A would get BestPP = 100/1.01^1 = 99 pp
For Group B, AF = 20%. So, PP_B = 99*(1-0.2) = 79pp
Similarly, PP_C = 54, PP_D = 25, PP_E = 10

PP diminishing for missing droplets seems to harsh, so now I'll repeat the whole process considering DF = 0.1:

Case B: DF = 0.1
B-1: There are plays with 0 droplet misses, so we'll consider the following distribution:

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
F 10% 5
E 15% 4
D 30% 3
C 25% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0

Group A would get 100pp (max possible, BestPP = 100/1.01^0 = 100)
For Group B, AF = 5%. So, PP_B= 100*(1-0.05)^0.1 = 99
For Group C, AF= 5% + 15% = 20%. Therefore, PP_C = 100*(1-0.2)^0.02 = 97
Similarly, PP_D = 94, PP_E = 87, PP_F = 79

B-2: Best play has (at least) 1 droplet miss, so we'll consider the following distribution:

Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
E 10% 5
D 15% 4
C 30% 3
B 25% 2
A 20% 1
Group A would get BestPP = 100/1.01^1 = 99
For Group B, AF = 20%. So, PP_B = 99*(1-0.2)^0.1 = 96
Similarly, PP_C = 93, PP_D = 86, PP_E = 78

Some ideas left:
* BPF could change based on the difficulty of catching all the droplets: maps where catching the droplets is harder should have a lower BPF
* The term BPF^(Droplet misses) could be capped at some value, e.g., 1.1.
* How can this be incorporated considering all other variables (accuracy, spinners, mods)? Maybe it could be a percentage of "accuracy".

PS: Sorry if I made any mistakes while writing this!

EDIT: Just noticed this doesn't work for certain cases. Gonna think about it later

EDIT2: Ok, I think I got it. The special case it wasn't going to work was when there's a group class with ~0% frequency, as that class and the next one would get almost the same ammount of pp (thus making catching that extra droplet worthless).

UPDATE
The new approach I'd try would be: for each class, calculate its max pp possible (TopPP) according to droplet misses, using the same formula for BestPP, i.e., TopPP = floor(MapPP/BPF^(Droplet Misses)). Now, for each class, calculate its real pp using a diminishing formula based on acumulated frequency, as PP = floor(TopPP*(1-AF)^DF).

Now, I'll use one of the examples from above but calculate map pp worth using those new formulas. Also, I'll show one case of a harder to SS map.

Example 1:
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
F 10% 5
E 15% 4
D 30% 3
C 25% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0

TopPP_A = floor(100/1.01^0) = 100
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.1) = 100

TopPP_B = floor(100/1.01^1) = 99
PP_B = floor(99*(1-0.05)^0.1) = 98

TopPP_C = floor(100/1.01^2) = 98
PP_C = floor(98*(1-0.2)^0.1) = 95

TopPP_D = floor(100/1.01^3) = 97
PP_D = floor(97*(1-0.45)^0.1) = 91

TopPP_E = floor(100/1.01^4) = 96
PP_E = floor(96*(1-0.75)^0.1) = 83

TopPP_F = floor(100/1.01^5) = 95
PP_F = floor(95*(1-0.9)^0.1) = 75

Example 2: This is a harder to SS map, as there are 5% user with 0, 1 or 2 droplets misses.
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
F 30% 5
E 40% 4
D 25% 3
C 4% 2
B 0% 1
A 1% 0

TopPP_A = floor(100/1.01^0) = 100
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.1) = 100

TopPP_B = floor(100/1.01^1) = 99
PP_B = floor(99*(1-0.01)^0.1) = 98

TopPP_C = floor(100/1.01^2) = 98
PP_C = floor(98*(1-0.01)^0.1) = 97

TopPP_D = floor(100/1.01^3) = 97
PP_D = floor(97*(1-0.05)^0.1) = 96

TopPP_E = floor(100/1.01^4) = 96
PP_E = floor(96*(1-0.3)^0.1) = 92

TopPP_F = floor(100/1.01^5) = 95
PP_F = floor(95*(1-0.7)^0.1) = 84

When the map is harder to SS, less players concentrate on classes with less droplets misses and the decreasing factor based on AF is not that harsh.
elezaya
Two-three days ago I was 100K+ rank now 21K(according to bancho bot IG).
And honestly I'm not the best player but I always aim for the S rank.
It could use a nerf because its now really easy to get a decent rank while you suck(reffering to myself :cry: )
DeletedUser_500696
Uh I'm going to try to reply to zirox's post :oops:. I think the idea looks good, if I understand correctly you are calculating a maximum droplet pp contribution based on the map's difficulty. Then a player will get a higher fraction of that if it's more difficult to catch all of the droplets on that map. Also that droplet contrib would have less weight if everyone easily catches all of the droplets? This would fix most of the PF SS farming maps on ctb I think. What about the possibility where the map has few/no droplets and is still difficult to FC (maybe these https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=119021&m=2, https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=92780&m=2)? Would that still punish a player too much if they FC but miss a droplet? Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your formula, if it accounts for this that would be great (I suck at math can anyone offer feedback also...)
ZiRoX

-Kurisu- wrote:

If I understand correctly you are calculating a maximum droplet pp contribution based on the map's difficulty. Then a player will get a higher fraction of that if it's more difficult to catch all of the droplets on that map.
This formula just assumes there's a Maximum Droplet PP Contribution, which I called MaxPP. As for how is it calculated, I have no idea but, as I said in my post, it could be a percentage of the "accuracy" (considering this is something similar to tp!standard, with "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy")

-Kurisu- wrote:

Also that droplet contrib would have less weight if everyone easily catches all of the droplets? This would fix most of the PF SS farming maps on ctb I think.
Nope. My formula would asign MaxPP to all those PF SS. It would, however, be more fair with non SS scores: ppv1 gave a lot of PP to those SS and missing one or more droplets meant you got almost no pp. This formula gives pp almost to all players.

-Kurisu- wrote:

What about the possibility where the map has few/no droplets and is still difficult to FC (maybe these https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=119021&m=2, https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=92780&m=2)? Would that still punish a player too much if they FC but miss a droplet? Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your formula, if it accounts for this that would be great (I suck at math can anyone offer feedback also...)
If a maps has no droplets, then there should be no droplet pp contribution, as simple as that. As for any other case, the PP you get is strongly dependant on how do you compare with others players. For example, if there was a map with 1 droplet and you finished it missing that droplet, you could get 99 pp in the best case. If, in fact, everybody has missed that droplet, you'll get 99 pp ( 99*(1-0)^0.1 ). But if some players did catch that droplet, the pp you'd get will be punished by how many players did better than you. If only 10% of the players catched it, you'd get 97 pp (out of 100); if half the players catched it, you'd get 92 pp; if 90% of the players catched it (meaning you did really bad), you'd get 78 pp. So, the punishment is not that much.

Actually, I think it should be punished more, so I'll think a little bit more about this later.
ZiRoX
Sorry for double post, but I made this intentionally, as I felt this deserves its own post

Update on the Formula
As I found the punishment for droplet misses wasn't enough, I thought of a new way to make it harsher. Also, I thought of a way to make it related to the total ammount of droplets in the maps (it's not the same to miss 1 out of 5 droplets than missing 1 out of 100). So, here's the notation I'll use:

MaxPP = Maximum Droplet pp Contribution
TopPP = Maximum pp posible for each class of players (based on droplet misses)
PP = Actual pp given to a class
AF = Acumulated Frequency of all groups with less droplet misses
DF = Diminishing Factor (where 0 < DF < 1)
LL = Lower Limit, percentage of pp a player missing all droplets will get (a number between 0 and 1), based only on droplet misses. It can't be 0.
TD = Total Droplets, the number of droplets of the map.
x = Number of droplet misses

1] Calculate the TopPP for each class using the following formula:
TopPP = floor(MaxPP*exp(x*ln(LL)/TD))

2] Calculate PP given using the diminishing formula based on AF:
PP = floor(TopPP*(1-AF)^DF)

So, now I'll work 4 different examples to show how this formula behaves. Two cases will have TD = 3 droplets and two will have TD = 7 droplets. Also, one map will be harder to SS than the other. They also assume LL = 0.5 and DF = 0.5

Case A: 3 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/3)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/3)) = 79
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/3)) = 62
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/3)) = 50

Example A-1: Easy Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
D 10% 3
C 20% 2
B 40% 1
A 30% 0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 66
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 33
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15

Example A-2: Hard Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
D 10% 3
C 70% 2
B 15% 1
A 5% 0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 76
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 55
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15

Case B: 7 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/7)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/7)) = 90
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/7)) = 82
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/7)) = 74
TopPP_E = floor(100*exp(4*ln(0.5)/7)) = 67
TopPP_F = floor(100*exp(5*ln(0.5)/7)) = 60
TopPP_G = floor(100*exp(6*ln(0.5)/7)) = 55
TopPP_H = floor(100*exp(7*ln(0.5)/7)) = 50

Example B-1: Easy Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
H 5% 7
G 5% 6
F 10% 5
E 5% 4
D 10% 3
C 15% 2
B 20% 1
A 30% 0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 75
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.5)^0.5) = 57
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.65)^0.5) = 43
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.75)^0.5) = 33
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.8)^0.5) = 26
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 17
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11

Example B-2: Hard Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
H 5% 7
G 10% 6
F 15% 5
E 30% 4
D 20% 3
C 10% 2
B 5% 1
A 5% 0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 87
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.1)^0.5) = 77
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 66
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.4)^0.5) = 51
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 32
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.85)^0.5) = 21
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11

Comments
* In my opinion, this formula works well. Anyway, LL and DF can be adjusted.
Ioka

Loctav wrote:

Please keep the discussion structured. If you are incapable to contribute in a constructive manner, your posts will be removed and penalities will be given out.
Zak
Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...
ZiRoX

Zak wrote:

Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...
The penalty is harsh, but that formula isn't meant to apply to overall pp. If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
Ioka

ZiRoX wrote:

If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.
ZiRoX

Amir wrote:

ZiRoX wrote:

If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.
How tp works for standard: http://osutp.net/info, the difficulty is calculated by an algorithm.
Kurokami
Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly? Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS? This kind of change is not really has effect at Standard since most good players can handle it easily, but in CtB the map difficulty is a bit lower tho catching droplet sometimes really hard even w/o mod. And in CtB one droplet is only count 10 point step asside from the max combo since it has no effect on it. That 10 point really worth that kind of punishment? Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?

I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
Tenshichan

Kurokami wrote:

Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.
xXLei_Js_xX
!
Kurokami

Tenshichan wrote:

Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.
Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough. But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly. Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy. BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:

1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc

And maybe that "extra" point can be removed if this is the player is new at that level.

Well this is just a small example, but I think this can be fair enough to all players. I hope its clear enough since I'm kinda tired today. orz
Tenshichan

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough.
I think the difficulty of the map isn't relevant when it comes to SS or no SS. For example this map: *click*. It is easy to FC even with HD DT, but it is damn hard to get an SS on, as you can see, no one has it actually with HD DT or HD HR. So if someone does the only SS with HD DT, he will automatically get more pp from it than someone who has maybe catched 15 bananas more, because it is obviously way harder to do the SS rank here than getting a good spin.

Kurokami wrote:

But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly.
I agree, thats why it should be clearly checked how many players SS'd a certain difficulty with this set of mods. So if there are only 4 of 25 players with SS you will still get a decent bonus for SS. Simple.

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy.
When there will be 50 players with SS, then SS should clearly not be relevant, but only with the same mod usage that is. For example, we have a mapset, where #1-#4 are HD DT records and the rest are all Hidden SS. If for example #3 managed to do a HD DT SS, he should get a small reward for it, even though there are many SS records with only Hidden mod, so that he maybe gets the same pp amount out of it as #1 with no SS.

Kurokami wrote:

BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula[...]
I don't get it. If a newer player gets a Hidden SS on a hard map, he will certainly get more pp out of it than someone who can do it with ease. Why should a #100 player complain that a #2500 player got more pp for an SS than him. It is obvious that he would get more pp out of it because of his rank, and slowly decreased that amount when he climbs up the ranks.

Kurokami wrote:

[...]but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:

1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc
Agree, but you are contradicting yourself here.

Edit: Zirox formula is actually pretty solid. The only problem I see there is to implement it.
Kurokami
*deleted content*

Forgot everything, I'm tired. I will read it trough once again with a clear head then answer to your post.
Zak
I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps. Take this for example, there isn't a single HD SS so if someone ends up doing it they should receive a bonus for being able to. Now i'm not saying people should get large bonuses or anything but I think maybe getting a extra few pp as a bonus for doing better than most is better than punishing everyone who misses droplets.
Tenshichan

Zak wrote:

I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps.
A Hidden SS is the maximum amount of "droplet pp" you can gain from a Hidden FC on a map. If you miss a droplet, you will only get a certain percentage of that amount. Still, this "droplet pp" needs to be weighted with the spins and the number of SS ranks with the selected (difficulty increasing) mod(s). So if you FC a hard map with SS, while only 5 other people have SS with the same mod, you will get a certain "bonus". This can be counted on every map, while hard maps automatically give you this kind of "bonus". If you miss a droplet on a map with no Hidden SS, you will still get good pp out of it, but not the maximum "droplet pp".
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly?
Have you read my posts completely? It's not meant to apply to overall pp. Think of it as a bonus that decreases with droplet misses. Also, Zak's POV (increasing bonus for better accuracy) can work well. Also, I said there are some values that are just a random try. I made this (http://puu.sh/6SdOh) for you to play. If you think it's too harsh, try using a higher LL value and/or a lower DF value. Also, you can see how a bigger number of droplets makes the thing less harsh (change TD for this) and how the most influential part is how you did compared to other players (changing AF)

Kurokami wrote:

Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS?
What I've played or not is really out of discussion. But, FYI, yes.

Kurokami wrote:

Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
Then let's keep with ppv1, where the pp was based on the rank you got on the map.

Kurokami wrote:

I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
It's just an idea about how to handle a specific part of CTB.
Kurokami
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
They can be rewarded equally. And again, I repeat, my formula is based on a lot of assumptions. One really important point is how to determine MaxPP. Obviously, some maps are harder to SS and the reward for SSing them should be higher and so, MaxPP should be higher. Considering how tp works for standard, if there was something related to Accuracy, one could set MaxPP to be a percentage of this "Accuracy Difficulty Value". As tp re-calculates these values for mod plays, a HD play will have a higher value of Accuracy and MaxPP would be higher for a play with HD. So it is possible for a no-mod SS and a Hidden S to be equally (or similarly) rewared.
Kurokami
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*

The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*

The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
We'll have to wait on Tom94 for further details.
Yukiteru Amano
What was a huge flaw in the PP system was shared top ranks with HD, that would reward you with tons of pp. SS shouldn't be worth as much as it was before. Just my thoughts on it.
Kassias

- Rii - wrote:

sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
^ Exactly
UsUTSuki

Bu Puppet wrote:

- Rii - wrote:

sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
^ Exactly
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder
-Ryuujii-
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder
dt+ar8 and up is hard and more difficult than hr sometimes
TheVileOne
Just dropping in to say that a map shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to award pp. It needs to still allow pp for players of all skill levels and not only the ones who can play with hardrock.

Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
- Rii -

UsUTSuki wrote:

when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder


u sure?
Drafura
Didn't really wanted to post here, but some posts here are missleading or not clear, so about modifiers in CtB:

In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)

- Hidden:
  1. AR<=7: HD makes the map way harder to play and should deserve a significant bonus, sadly most AR<=7 maps are easy maps (especially converted ones).
  2. AR=8: HD start to be less annoying on most maps. It still deserve a significant bonus on hardest AR=8 maps but at this point a huge amount of players can easily play AR=8 maps with HD.
  3. AR=9: Most players will use HD on AR=9 maps cause it doesn't disturb them anymore, some players says that it actually help them to have HD in AR=9 maps. Most of those plays doesn't deserve any bonuses, however some AR=9 maps using complicated stream patterns would still be awarded by a bonus (the idea here is that HD on AR=9 helps a bit for huge jumps and make precise patterns like streams a bit more difficult)
  4. AR>=10: I think only 10-20 players in the world plays AR>=10 without HD. A HUGE amount of players will say that it's easier to play AR>=10 with HD. I don't think any bonuses should be deserved for most of those HD plays (Actually a malus would fit better but I think it's a bad idea since it will screw the map rankings)
- Flashlight:
  1. Most of FL plays are done in AR=8 mainly on stream maps. I don't know this mode well enough to say more about it.
- Hardrock:
  1. AR<7: HR would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
  2. AR=7: HR start to have a huge effect on many players, clearly deserve a bonus but nothing really huge since most of those maps are pretty easy.
  3. AR>=8: Everything over this point should deserve a nice bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- Double Time:
  1. AR<=7: DT would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
  2. AR=8: Here is the most complicated part. AR=8 maps with many 1/2-1/4 movements and/or really huge jumps and hyperdashes are most likely being harder with DT than with HR. However most AR=8 maps are still easier with DT than HR due to how they're mapped.
  3. AR=9: I actually don't know any AR=9 map being easier with HR than DT, those FC are rare, even clearing AR=9 maps with DT is challenging for most players. The FC's should get a significant reward since it shows the player capability of reading high speed AR, memorization and ryuuta control.
  4. AR>9: I don't know any player capable of reading this speed.
For mode combination in most case HR and DT adapt the AR for the other two modes (For example if you use DT and HD on AR=8 the description of AR8 DT is valid but for the HD part you'll have to use the description of AR9 since AR8+DT speed is closer to AR9 than AR8). A specific case exist with FL+HD where the player almost have to learn the entire map wich is obviously a really great challenge.

I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.

My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.

Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
TheVileOne
I use hidden, because it removes some of the clutter from the screen. I have trained myself to stare at the top half of the screen instead of the bottom half. It allows me to react quicker. It isn't by any means a cure all solution for all fast maps. I think this part is determined by skill level. When we can read the notes faster, then we can tackle faster patterns. When the patterns reach your skill boundary then hidden becomes much harder.

I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.

Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
KinAce

DeathXHunter wrote:

After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.
+1
You were right :D
Topic Starter
Tom94
Hey everyone, I've got an initial iteration of the algorithm to show. Please remember to tell me which version you are talking about when giving feedback. Also please let me know which tuning seems the best to you. ;)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 3emc#gid=1
Drafura
"1.5 direction with converts" seems to actually work the best imo. But hard to say, there's so many maps.

Also some maps seems to get overrated on all versions, like "Can't Defeat Airman [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]" and "Kokou no Sousei [Collab]".
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