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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX
Sorry for double post, but I made this intentionally, as I felt this deserves its own post

Update on the Formula
As I found the punishment for droplet misses wasn't enough, I thought of a new way to make it harsher. Also, I thought of a way to make it related to the total ammount of droplets in the maps (it's not the same to miss 1 out of 5 droplets than missing 1 out of 100). So, here's the notation I'll use:

MaxPP = Maximum Droplet pp Contribution
TopPP = Maximum pp posible for each class of players (based on droplet misses)
PP = Actual pp given to a class
AF = Acumulated Frequency of all groups with less droplet misses
DF = Diminishing Factor (where 0 < DF < 1)
LL = Lower Limit, percentage of pp a player missing all droplets will get (a number between 0 and 1), based only on droplet misses. It can't be 0.
TD = Total Droplets, the number of droplets of the map.
x = Number of droplet misses

1] Calculate the TopPP for each class using the following formula:
TopPP = floor(MaxPP*exp(x*ln(LL)/TD))

2] Calculate PP given using the diminishing formula based on AF:
PP = floor(TopPP*(1-AF)^DF)

So, now I'll work 4 different examples to show how this formula behaves. Two cases will have TD = 3 droplets and two will have TD = 7 droplets. Also, one map will be harder to SS than the other. They also assume LL = 0.5 and DF = 0.5

Case A: 3 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/3)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/3)) = 79
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/3)) = 62
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/3)) = 50

Example A-1: Easy Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     D                   10%                  3
     C                   20%                  2
     B                   40%                  1
     A                   30%                  0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 66
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 33
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15

Example A-2: Hard Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     D                   10%                  3
     C                   70%                  2
     B                   15%                  1
     A                   5%                   0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(79*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 76
PP_C = floor(62*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 55
PP_D = floor(50*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 15

Case B: 7 Droplets total
For these maps, the TopPP for each class are:
TopPP_A = floor(100*exp(0*ln(0.5)/7)) = 100
TopPP_B = floor(100*exp(1*ln(0.5)/7)) = 90
TopPP_C = floor(100*exp(2*ln(0.5)/7)) = 82
TopPP_D = floor(100*exp(3*ln(0.5)/7)) = 74
TopPP_E = floor(100*exp(4*ln(0.5)/7)) = 67
TopPP_F = floor(100*exp(5*ln(0.5)/7)) = 60
TopPP_G = floor(100*exp(6*ln(0.5)/7)) = 55
TopPP_H = floor(100*exp(7*ln(0.5)/7)) = 50

Example B-1: Easy Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     H                  5%                    7
     G                  5%                    6
     F                  10%                   5
     E                  5%                    4
     D                  10%                   3
     C                  15%                   2
     B                  20%                   1
     A                  30%                   0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.3)^0.5) = 75
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.5)^0.5) = 57
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.65)^0.5) = 43
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.75)^0.5) = 33
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.8)^0.5) = 26
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.9)^0.5) = 17
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11

Example B-2: Hard Map
Group Class       Users' frequency     Droplet Misses
     H                  5%                  7
     G                  10%                 6
     F                  15%                 5
     E                  30%                 4
     D                  20%                 3
     C                  10%                 2
     B                  5%                  1
     A                  5%                  0

For this distribution, the actual PP given for each class are:
PP_A = floor(100*(1-0)^0.5) = 100
PP_B = floor(90*(1-0.05)^0.5) = 87
PP_C = floor(82*(1-0.1)^0.5) = 77
PP_D = floor(74*(1-0.2)^0.5) = 66
PP_E = floor(67*(1-0.4)^0.5) = 51
PP_F = floor(60*(1-0.7)^0.5) = 32
PP_G = floor(55*(1-0.85)^0.5) = 21
PP_H = floor(50*(1-0.95)^0.5) = 11

Comments
* In my opinion, this formula works well. Anyway, LL and DF can be adjusted.
Ioka
104 posts
Joined September 2013
Ioka

Loctav wrote:

Please keep the discussion structured. If you are incapable to contribute in a constructive manner, your posts will be removed and penalities will be given out.
Last edited by Drafura , edited 1 time in total.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Zak wrote:

Too much math for me, but it seems like there's way too harsh a penalty for droplet misses, you should really fix that as it seems like it won't be much better than ppv1...
The penalty is harsh, but that formula isn't meant to apply to overall pp. If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
Ioka
104 posts
Joined September 2013
Ioka

ZiRoX wrote:

If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Amir wrote:

ZiRoX wrote:

If the system is going to work like tp, there should be some factors measuring beatmap difficulty (like "Aim", "Speed" and "Accuracy" in Standard) and then droplets could represent a % of, say, accuracy pp.
isn't that near impossible to think about as it would take up to much time? to get the factors measuring a beatmap difficulty which i assume is done mostly by hand picking maps wouldn't really be that much of a viable option for some maps considering for some players some maps are harder than others, and getting a maplist like that for the "hardest maps" that require the most amount of skill would definitely require a intense amount of work the people working on pp for not only the ctb game mode but also the taiko and mania game mode too as all of those would also need their own high skill tier mapsets.
How tp works for standard: http://osutp.net/info, the difficulty is calculated by an algorithm.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly? Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS? This kind of change is not really has effect at Standard since most good players can handle it easily, but in CtB the map difficulty is a bit lower tho catching droplet sometimes really hard even w/o mod. And in CtB one droplet is only count 10 point step asside from the max combo since it has no effect on it. That 10 point really worth that kind of punishment? Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?

I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
Tenshichan
601 posts
Joined September 2011
Tenshichan

Kurokami wrote:

Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.
xXLei_Js_xX
xXLei_Js_xX
!
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami

Tenshichan wrote:

Because especially with mods getting an SS is hard on some maps, so it should be rewarded. There are a lot maps where it is harder to get an SS than a good spin, just saying.
Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough. But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly. Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy. BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:

1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc

And maybe that "extra" point can be removed if this is the player is new at that level.

Well this is just a small example, but I think this can be fair enough to all players. I hope its clear enough since I'm kinda tired today. orz
Tenshichan
601 posts
Joined September 2011
Tenshichan

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, it needs to be rewarded but just if the map is hard enough.
I think the difficulty of the map isn't relevant when it comes to SS or no SS. For example this map: *click*. It is easy to FC even with HD DT, but it is damn hard to get an SS on, as you can see, no one has it actually with HD DT or HD HR. So if someone does the only SS with HD DT, he will automatically get more pp from it than someone who has maybe catched 15 bananas more, because it is obviously way harder to do the SS rank here than getting a good spin.

Kurokami wrote:

But its impossible to a Ai to determine how hard is a map truly.
I agree, thats why it should be clearly checked how many players SS'd a certain difficulty with this set of mods. So if there are only 4 of 25 players with SS you will still get a decent bonus for SS. Simple.

Kurokami wrote:

Yes, maybe there are 30 player with 1 droplet miss and 1 with SS but that can mean two thing. First is, maybe the hard it too hard to SS so that player with SS needs to be rewarded more. Second, those 30 player just sucked and can't get that droplet because of the lack of skill but with time 50 more SS it so they slowly get fewer pp since the map is easy.
When there will be 50 players with SS, then SS should clearly not be relevant, but only with the same mod usage that is. For example, we have a mapset, where #1-#4 are HD DT records and the rest are all Hidden SS. If for example #3 managed to do a HD DT SS, he should get a small reward for it, even though there are many SS records with only Hidden mod, so that he maybe gets the same pp amount out of it as #1 with no SS.

Kurokami wrote:

BUT here comes the skill, what will happen if this is the first Insane fc for one of those players? He/she really need to get the same amount as the rest or maybe more since this is the first higher level fc? I don't think so. But then complain will happen since why he/she got more pp then the rest, etc. So in the end no system will be fair enough to all player no matter what is the formula[...]
I don't get it. If a newer player gets a Hidden SS on a hard map, he will certainly get more pp out of it than someone who can do it with ease. Why should a #100 player complain that a #2500 player got more pp for an SS than him. It is obvious that he would get more pp out of it because of his rank, and slowly decreased that amount when he climbs up the ranks.

Kurokami wrote:

[...]but one pp drop should be punished too hard. Of course it can be stacked up as the misses growing and maybe add some extra punishment in it, like:

1 dp miss = -2 pp
2 dp miss = -4,5pp
3 dp miss = -7pp
etc
Agree, but you are contradicting yourself here.

Edit: Zirox formula is actually pretty solid. The only problem I see there is to implement it.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
*deleted content*

Forgot everything, I'm tired. I will read it trough once again with a clear head then answer to your post.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps. Take this for example, there isn't a single HD SS so if someone ends up doing it they should receive a bonus for being able to. Now i'm not saying people should get large bonuses or anything but I think maybe getting a extra few pp as a bonus for doing better than most is better than punishing everyone who misses droplets.
Tenshichan
601 posts
Joined September 2011
Tenshichan

Zak wrote:

I think instead of being punished for missing droplets, you should get small bonuses for really nice accuracy on certain maps.
A Hidden SS is the maximum amount of "droplet pp" you can gain from a Hidden FC on a map. If you miss a droplet, you will only get a certain percentage of that amount. Still, this "droplet pp" needs to be weighted with the spins and the number of SS ranks with the selected (difficulty increasing) mod(s). So if you FC a hard map with SS, while only 5 other people have SS with the same mod, you will get a certain "bonus". This can be counted on every map, while hard maps automatically give you this kind of "bonus". If you miss a droplet on a map with no Hidden SS, you will still get good pp out of it, but not the maximum "droplet pp".
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

Tell me why a droplet miss needs to be punished harshly?
Have you read my posts completely? It's not meant to apply to overall pp. Think of it as a bonus that decreases with droplet misses. Also, Zak's POV (increasing bonus for better accuracy) can work well. Also, I said there are some values that are just a random try. I made this (http://puu.sh/6SdOh) for you to play. If you think it's too harsh, try using a higher LL value and/or a lower DF value. Also, you can see how a bigger number of droplets makes the thing less harsh (change TD for this) and how the most influential part is how you did compared to other players (changing AF)

Kurokami wrote:

Have you every tried a really hard map with Hidden where the SV went up and the horizontal sliders were really hard to SS?
What I've played or not is really out of discussion. But, FYI, yes.

Kurokami wrote:

Some players can miss a droplet but their spinner skills covering it and get more point than some SS record. Why they need to get fewer pp?
Then let's keep with ppv1, where the pp was based on the rank you got on the map.

Kurokami wrote:

I think you still need to work on that formula since its aren't actualy countthe player's skill. Just how good their accuracy was.
It's just an idea about how to handle a specific part of CTB.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

Okay, I read them once again. And yeah my sentences were a bit bad. I wanted to mean no-mod SS and Hidden S. So how do you want to make difference between? Since they are almost the same but not really since sometimes "easier" to get SS than an fc with hidden. Well they are mostly special cases but still they are kinda at the same level (not counting FL). So I just want to know if you think they should be rewarded equaly or not. But yes at the end the reward for good accuracy instead of a punish for DP miss sounds much better. Of course I agree with the punishment too, since its not really that hard to get SS, I just don't think it should be high (a few pp which can stack is a good amount).
They can be rewarded equally. And again, I repeat, my formula is based on a lot of assumptions. One really important point is how to determine MaxPP. Obviously, some maps are harder to SS and the reward for SSing them should be higher and so, MaxPP should be higher. Considering how tp works for standard, if there was something related to Accuracy, one could set MaxPP to be a percentage of this "Accuracy Difficulty Value". As tp re-calculates these values for mod plays, a HD play will have a higher value of Accuracy and MaxPP would be higher for a play with HD. So it is possible for a no-mod SS and a Hidden S to be equally (or similarly) rewared.
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*

The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Kurokami wrote:

Okay, thats enough for me. The rest was in your post anyways. If this will be implemented than finally I can get my first place back in my country. *.*

The main problem since CtB doesn't have accuracy it will be hard to implement something like this since it needs to be somewhat different than the rest of the modes. I wonder if peppy can do it. o.o
We'll have to wait on Tom94 for further details.
Yukiteru Amano
409 posts
Joined September 2012
Yukiteru Amano
What was a huge flaw in the PP system was shared top ranks with HD, that would reward you with tons of pp. SS shouldn't be worth as much as it was before. Just my thoughts on it.
Kassias
26 posts
Joined September 2012
Kassias

- Rii - wrote:

sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
^ Exactly
UsUTSuki
3 posts
Joined May 2013
UsUTSuki

Bu Puppet wrote:

- Rii - wrote:

sometimes DT is even much harder than HR
^ Exactly
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-
when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder
dt+ar8 and up is hard and more difficult than hr sometimes
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Just dropping in to say that a map shouldn't be unreasonably difficult to award pp. It needs to still allow pp for players of all skill levels and not only the ones who can play with hardrock.

Also adding too much of a weight for catching droplets in hidden could potentially make playing for pp not fun, because it is sometimes according to luck whether or not you catch droplets if you're not a pro player with hidden enabled. It wont be good if pp will become dependent on catching all the droplets.
- Rii -
189 posts
Joined December 2013
- Rii -

UsUTSuki wrote:

when The map is = AR10 but under its not Harder


u sure?
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
Didn't really wanted to post here, but some posts here are missleading or not clear, so about modifiers in CtB:

In CtB modifiers are greatly related to approach rate and a bit to circle size, I'll describe how most players use them here (keep in mind that each player is different and I'm trying to get a general overview of how mods are used in most maps)

- Hidden:
  1. AR<=7: HD makes the map way harder to play and should deserve a significant bonus, sadly most AR<=7 maps are easy maps (especially converted ones).
  2. AR=8: HD start to be less annoying on most maps. It still deserve a significant bonus on hardest AR=8 maps but at this point a huge amount of players can easily play AR=8 maps with HD.
  3. AR=9: Most players will use HD on AR=9 maps cause it doesn't disturb them anymore, some players says that it actually help them to have HD in AR=9 maps. Most of those plays doesn't deserve any bonuses, however some AR=9 maps using complicated stream patterns would still be awarded by a bonus (the idea here is that HD on AR=9 helps a bit for huge jumps and make precise patterns like streams a bit more difficult)
  4. AR>=10: I think only 10-20 players in the world plays AR>=10 without HD. A HUGE amount of players will say that it's easier to play AR>=10 with HD. I don't think any bonuses should be deserved for most of those HD plays (Actually a malus would fit better but I think it's a bad idea since it will screw the map rankings)
- Flashlight:
  1. Most of FL plays are done in AR=8 mainly on stream maps. I don't know this mode well enough to say more about it.
- Hardrock:
  1. AR<7: HR would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
  2. AR=7: HR start to have a huge effect on many players, clearly deserve a bonus but nothing really huge since most of those maps are pretty easy.
  3. AR>=8: Everything over this point should deserve a nice bonus depending on the map difficulty.
- Double Time:
  1. AR<=7: DT would deserve a little bonus depending on the map difficulty.
  2. AR=8: Here is the most complicated part. AR=8 maps with many 1/2-1/4 movements and/or really huge jumps and hyperdashes are most likely being harder with DT than with HR. However most AR=8 maps are still easier with DT than HR due to how they're mapped.
  3. AR=9: I actually don't know any AR=9 map being easier with HR than DT, those FC are rare, even clearing AR=9 maps with DT is challenging for most players. The FC's should get a significant reward since it shows the player capability of reading high speed AR, memorization and ryuuta control.
  4. AR>9: I don't know any player capable of reading this speed.
For mode combination in most case HR and DT adapt the AR for the other two modes (For example if you use DT and HD on AR=8 the description of AR8 DT is valid but for the HD part you'll have to use the description of AR9 since AR8+DT speed is closer to AR9 than AR8). A specific case exist with FL+HD where the player almost have to learn the entire map wich is obviously a really great challenge.

I don't know enough about Half Time and Easy modes. Only thing I can say here is that EZ+HD on hard maps are really challenging and should maybe work the same way of the other modifiers.

My thoughts about accuarcy in CtB: This is just a % of completion of the map, nothing related to the other game mode. Droplets are easy to miss and they don't even have hitsounds so you basically don't know when you're missing them. Any bonus or malus related to droplet misses should have a minor weight in the total calculation. However Zirox's calculation sounds good to detect on wich maps it could be more or less weighted.

Spinning well isn't given to all players and I think a fair calculation could be "more bananas = more weight in the global calculation". Being myself bad at spinning I think it's part of the CtB skills and this should be well rewarded in the global calculation.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I use hidden, because it removes some of the clutter from the screen. I have trained myself to stare at the top half of the screen instead of the bottom half. It allows me to react quicker. It isn't by any means a cure all solution for all fast maps. I think this part is determined by skill level. When we can read the notes faster, then we can tackle faster patterns. When the patterns reach your skill boundary then hidden becomes much harder.

I prefer to play maps that I don't need to develop muscle memory to complete. I want to be able to follow the note path and respond to it as I go along. It is the maps that I cannot do this that are very difficult for me. Since hidden makes it more difficult to learn patterns of a map beyond a certain level and playing without hidden reduces my accuracy to hit patterns, I am left without any good options on how to learn this map. These are the maps that I expect pp from.

Even if we can say that the average person is capable of playing a map with hidden, the average person may not prefer to play a map with hidden. I would hate it if I worked hard to play a difficult map, and get nothing for it even though not many people have played that map with hidden or other mods. I mean I don't care if I don't get the pp of someone who uses the other mods which are more difficult, but I think I deserve something for placing relatively well compared to my peers in a hard map.
KinAce
193 posts
Joined September 2013
KinAce

DeathXHunter wrote:

After all there will be ppv2 hopefully,so the guys who say that the ranking should be removed just play for the fun and let the other guys discuss what should be considered in the upcoming system and not ask for removing it,lol.
+1
You were right :D
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
Hey everyone, I've got an initial iteration of the algorithm to show. Please remember to tell me which version you are talking about when giving feedback. Also please let me know which tuning seems the best to you. ;)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... 3emc#gid=1
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,620 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
"1.5 direction with converts" seems to actually work the best imo. But hard to say, there's so many maps.

Also some maps seems to get overrated on all versions, like "Can't Defeat Airman [Holy Shit! It's Airman!!]" and "Kokou no Sousei [Collab]".
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne


I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

TheVileOne wrote:



I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.

Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.

My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.


The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
Rorona
281 posts
Joined January 2013
Rorona

Tom94 wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:



I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.

Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.

My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.


The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Rorona wrote:

IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2

Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
VelperK
osu!catch Champion
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

Tom94 wrote:

Rorona wrote:

IMO Big Black is still harder because it's AR10 instead of AR 9, and the patterns seem slightly easier. The only way it could be worth more is if you account that Kokou no Sousei is about 2 times longer.
As said before, AR does not count for the difficulty calculated thus far. And map length indeed is factored in.
Is this the same in standard?

And if so, how come?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

VelperK wrote:

Is this the same in standard?

And if so, how come?
Yeah, it is the same in standard. Mainly because it doesn't really connect well with something like "aim" or "speed". Secondly there are many varying opinions - some people saying AR10 would be easier than 9 and others telling me the opposite.
It is factored in for pp calculations, so don't worry about that part.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

Luna wrote:

I'm by no means a good CtB player, so I can't really give feedback on the current difficulty ranking, but I'd be interested in seeing your alogrithm's opinions on these two maps:
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2

Both of these use a special kind of pattern that is extremely hard to play but doesn't rely on big or fast jumps, so I think your difficulty calculation method might possibly underrate these?
Yes, they're hard.
Kitokofox
osu! Alumni
455 posts
Joined August 2012
Kitokofox

Kitokofox wrote:

So, I ended up sharing this to Tom94. I want to see everyone's honest and unbiased opinions.

Kitokofox wrote:

Catch The Beat calculation methods

Catch The Beat is different in multiple ways, by how jumps work and how streams work, mostly. Playing on a 2D plane is a lot diffrent from standard osu!, along with the predefined movement speeds of the catcher. Thus, skill based calculations based on the limitations of Ryuuta among other things must be taken in account for.

There are some main factors which determine how difficult a map is for Catch The Beat:
Map Settings This goes back to the basics.
- Approach rate: This should be documented in difficulty by the actual drop rate of the fruits. This also gives AR10 the much needed skill requirement it actually calls for.
- Fruit Size: This is pretty obvious. The smaller the fruits, the harder they are to catch accurately. Skill requirement is based on the field in which you can actually catch the fruit, rather than the size itself.
- Overall Difficulty: I don't know how this is handled in the map, but as far as I know it only affects the HP loss when missing. I don't think that applies too much to skill, but for players who can just barely pass a song, this would come into play.
- HP Drain Rate: Same as above, only comes into play for those barely making a map.
Beat Placement Factors based on the placement of sliders and circles themselves
- Movement: How much the catcher needs to move to catch the fruits. In stream maps like Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, this would become classified as less difficult since you don't have to click and simply inch the catcher, where in the system used for standard, it would be classified as difficult otherwise.
- Jumpiness: This is the general distance between beats, based on how fast the catcher must move. This also applied to sliders and their slider ticks. This also heightens more based on the general theta of jumps in a row (especially hyperdashes in a row) What I mean by theta of jumps in a row, as in a map with periodic jumps is probably more difficult than one with one part of it having multiple in a row (This sort of compares and contrasts between kinds of jumps and what kind of skill and perseverance is required to acquire a good score) Also, generally, faster hyperdashes are harder to chain off of, e.g. Can't Defeat Airman!.
- Speed: This is how fast the catcher needs to move around in succession. This would rate maps like val0108's Talent Shredder or With A Dance Number as high skill examples for this sector, mainly because of how fast the catcher needs to switch one direction to another and how fast of fingers the player needs.
- Long jumps: Originally pixel jumps, these are jumps that are enough for the catcher to reach with the new hyperdash system, but still require precision placement to catch, as well as timing. An example can be seen in Wild Eyes [JAMES DIFFICULTY!!!] As it has long but viable jumps.
Mode Specifics and Other Stuff
- Mode Specific Maps: Don't need to be buffed. They are probably already difficult as it is with the algorithm that's in place. Plus, it was set this way to entice players to play those maps. This pp system focuses on the player's skill, and tries to measure the skill needed for each beatmap, so making bonuses of that sort is incorrect to ranking..
- Fruits before and after spinners: The time before spinners and after spinners doesn't need to be checked because of how bananas aren't necessary to a full combo.
- Accuracy: In general, accuracy is easier to come by in Catch The Beat, and as such, changes may be made accordingly.
Pretty sure I gave this to Tom94 earlier. I hope this better explains my full intent of CtB and it's performance point calculation.
VelperK
osu!catch Champion
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK

Tom94 wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:



I have major issues with this. Big Black and Kokou no sousei are not even close to being equal in difficulty. The difference between 360 BPM and 240 BPM is huge. Big black is also AR 10 and Kokou no sousei maps (Chaos and Collab) are AR 9. Jump intensity is also a huge factor.

This issue affects both models.

I can't beat Chaos. Someone else could evaluate that difficulty and have a more accurate opinion .
Referring to the "Chaos" diff:
First of all, simply taking the BPM does not work well. The big black mostly has 1/1 and 1/2 notes while kokou no sousei mostly consists of 1/2 and 1/4 notes, essentially making it closer to 480 BPM if you want to directly compare it to the big black.

Secondly AR is not factored into the difficulty algorithm. It will play a big role when computing pp, but it is not considered for beatmap difficulty / star rating.

My last point is, that the scoreboards indicate, that kokou no sousei is not very much easier than the big black.


The "Collab" diff of kokou no sousei definitely is a lot easier than the big black and should not be on par. It has a few hard parts but is mostly easy. Will look into that one.
what kind of proof do i have to provide to refute this argument?
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Both are pretty difficult. The extra AR makes it more difficult for me, but I guess it could be seen as easier or harder depending on how well trained your eyes are at reading fast scroll speeds. AR 9 gives you more time (might be a placebo effect) to read the objects. Sometimes it is the case that if you need to read the objects as they are scrolling, you are already taking too much time to hit them correctly.

There are more red fruit jumps in Chaos and it is the longer map, which makes it easier to make a mistake over the course of the run. I'm not sure how the pros consider red fruits in terms of difficulty compared to awkward patterns. Some awkward patterns are more frame perfect than 99% of red fruit jumps.

Do you value hyperdash jumps as more difficult than large jumps that are not hyperdashed? Hypers can be very easy, even the very far ones. They get more difficult when you have to chain them. 1/4th hypers tend to be more precise than 1/2th.
Yukiteru Amano
409 posts
Joined September 2012
Yukiteru Amano
Just a bit curious but, is there any date estimated for this to be done?
autofanboy
Elite Mapper / osu!trivium Champion
1,594 posts
Joined January 2011
autofanboy
IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-
Why can't you guys just be patient lol xD
VelperK
osu!catch Champion
1,172 posts
Joined May 2010
VelperK
Laharl
1,394 posts
Joined January 2011
Laharl

-Ryuujii- wrote:

Why can't you guys just be patient lol xD
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
It's out when it's out, deal with it.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

alienflybot wrote:

IMO, just DON'T make ctb diffs give too many pp.
This, please, a system bases on real difficulty wouln't need this.
lineqtxz
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
134 posts
Joined July 2011
lineqtxz
i got 200 pp today :D new system so op
Seph
Seph


I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

VelperK wrote:

Boom
267 posts
Joined September 2011
Boom


LOVE & ROLL (isn't FC) > God only knows (FC) ???
and CTB diffs are too overrated. :o
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-

Seph wrote:



I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..
-PM-
68 posts
Joined August 2012
-PM-
There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
Last edited by -PM- , edited 3 times in total.
Constantine
399 posts
Joined September 2013
Constantine
priority seems more legit this time lol

why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)

Then another hard

pls

Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter

best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
Kitokofox
osu! Alumni
455 posts
Joined August 2012
Kitokofox

-Ryuujii- wrote:

Seph wrote:



I'm totally fine with Airman (jumpy) and No Pain, No gain aho diff (insanely long sliders, jumpy that makes it hard to fc) on top performance but astrosexy? and Illumiscape and Ridorii aren't even FCs, yet they are there.
So ar10 maps > lower ar maps? Hm..
Yes, because AR10 is 1.5x faster than AR9, and AR9 is 1.5x faster than AR8, and etc
so, technically, since you have that less reaction time, AR10 is excessively difficult, much like how much more difficult CS10 is than CS9, and to CS8, and etc.
It's just all game elements that don't appear to make a huge impact, but they really do when you get it to the highest difficulty of these effects.

petiskacang wrote:

priority seems more legit this time lol

why does non FC map appear on top ranks?
Also for normal diff with HR, and FL (1 miss)

Then another hard

pls

Edit: i guess FC doesn't matter

best performance is marked base on your stability and "performance", thought some maps is still not FC-able / Hard to FC, like Rainbow Dash or Kirby mix Deluxe.
FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)

FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.

It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

-PM- wrote:

There are need to be more change.
Only so few maps are big pp maps. Standard of giving pp is too much towards on few factors. Accordingly, if we just played the pp maps, we can farming many pp even though not FCed or cleared with Easy mods (EZ, HT, NF). If you want, i can post the examples of the maps too! It is worst than ppv1...
And still many CTB maps are overrated in performances!
Skills to Minority Extra map or CTB maps is not skill of all. There are lot of variations.
But i know this ppv2 is not finally decided yet. So i hope to renewing ppv2 consistently.
You can't farm the hard pp maps without close-to-fc scores, let alone with easy mods. It would be nice if you could provide examples of where such things are possible.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Zak wrote:

This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all. ;)
DakkyChan
128 posts
Joined November 2012
DakkyChan
How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
[Super Shock]_old
[Super Shock]_old

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
How can DakkyChan rang 15....
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-

[Super Shock] wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
How can DakkyChan rang 15....
DeathXHunter
DeathXHunter
Well by being a good player,on dakky's case. Gonna PM u anytime soon Tom for some suggestions.
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
do you even ask
Sousaki
177 posts
Joined May 2012
Sousaki

119410501 wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
do you even ask
lmao
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

119410501 wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
do you even ask
uguu
Yami Shoujo
35 posts
Joined October 2012
Yami Shoujo
to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.

although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries

it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
Constantine
399 posts
Joined September 2013
Constantine

[Super Shock] wrote:

DakkyChan wrote:

How can be Zak rank 8 XDDDDD
How can DakkyChan rang 13....
---

Kitokofox wrote:

FC shouldn't have to matter too much (Although, it does give a tiny boost) It's more based on score and accuracy than anything now, mostly because of the fact that the only thing that slowly increases when you get better is the accuracy itself. (I feel combo has a somewhat important saying matter in there too)

FC only mattered because often FC means getting good rankings. It's more of "This is the difficulty, how much of the difficulty can you do?" And that's pretty much how pp goes.

It no longer focuses on other players. It tallies up how well YOU do, then compares that tally to others.
So, from your explanation, if we miss 1 on a map and catch all the droplets, it will give more PP rather than miss loooots of droplets but FC? oh well
xxxafiqxxx
xxxafiqxxx
:D :D now osu rank is enabled :cry: :cry:
Seph
Seph
Well you really can't change the fact that this version of pp still counts map hoarding though.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Minky wrote:

to reply onto the farming case, there are some songs that indeed give a lot of pp with little effort from above average players:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161980?m=2 is one case, getting top 200 nets you quite a lot of pp, even when you're at 4.6k pp.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2 is another example, the intro may be annoying, but its a straight shot to 300 combo, I see why it would give pp because the spacing between the jumps are huge and its pure hypers, but like I said any above average player can easily get accustomed to those jumps and either fc, or even miss once near the end and nets you still some good pp.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/84485?m=2 the jumps may be annoying but it is definitely doable, only thing I found hard on this is some jump at 369, like I said it gives a lot of pp as well.

although these songs were me experimenting to get under rank 100 with not so much effort, I did in fact move a lot of ranks so far from a few maps. And I'm considering these songs farmable since like I said above average players can do, or fc the songs that I listed with few retries

it does seem massively spaced maps gives a lot of pp too which may be concerning, since some of the maps have a few spots that are considered hard to pass, but require a few attempts to actually get used to it and pass massively large spaced notes.
There was a bug that rated some maps too high. Glee Cast - Friday is one of them, which will get fixed today. Can't say anything definite about the other 2, but the difficulty algorithm will get some adjustments either way. ;)
-Ryuujii-
259 posts
Joined November 2012
-Ryuujii-

Tom94 wrote:

Zak wrote:

This system may not be perfect yet, but it's at least starting to go in the right direction, you guys need to chill and give it time to improve.
Don't worry, the only way for me to know what to improve is listening to the complaints. I don't play CtB myself after all. ;)
Please someone help the guy out
DeletedUser_1417202
DeletedUser_1417202
(#7** -> #336 lol..)

you have to review about accuracy.
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

Seph wrote:

Well you really can't change the fact that this version of pp still counts map hoarding though.
New PP, new farming maps.
iiyo
522 posts
Joined March 2013
iiyo
there will always be maps picked out if you are good enough to farm them, pp can't be changed to a point of progression, ranking is ranking, no way around it i guess, there will always be shortcuts and tricks of the trade.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
you should focuse more on AR10 when you play with HR, and AR9 maps with DT have to be rated higher
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
This isn't about hard maps giving pp, it's the fact that they should be giving MORE than the not so easy maps, instead of around the same or even less, in ppv1 after getting into around the top 200 getting a good score on a hard map would give nothing unless you get top 20 or so (and sometimes not even then), and that's why ppv2 needs to make maps like that more rewarding.

A nice is example is Kokou no Sousei, in ppv1 rank 4 gave me 0pp but then if I wanted i could go get top 5 on maps that aren't very difficult and I would probably get pp.

None of us are saying that easier end maps shouldn't give pp at all, we're just saying that harder maps need to start giving more so things are somewhat balanced.
Spectre
62 posts
Joined May 2012
Spectre
I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?

P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
Seph
Seph
A player who focuses on heavily weighted maps can still be outranked by a player who has played more not-so-hard maps than him.

Like, 50 regular maps > 1 super hard map when it comes to pp gain
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

TenguKing9 wrote:

I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?

P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
Such a list is in the opening post of this thread.
When did you look through top performances? A bug regarding some nomod weightings has been fixed this morning.
Spectre
62 posts
Joined May 2012
Spectre

Tom94 wrote:

TenguKing9 wrote:

I've been looking around top 50 player's profiles and I see that most of their top performances are basically No mod and HD records. DT, HR, and FL records doesn't seem to have an effect on PP which concerns me. I mean sure the top 5 might have one or two HR records but the vast majority doesn't have theirs shown on their top. Could be a bug?

P.S- Compiling a list of hard maps for CTB would be really helpful to determine which maps should give more than others.
Such a list is in the opening post of this thread.
When did you look through top performances? A bug regarding some nomod weightings has been fixed this morning.
I looked through about 35 mins ago. No mod and HD are fine but HR,DT, and FL are not giving a bonus from what it looks like.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Seph wrote:

A player who focuses on heavily weighted maps can still be outranked by a player who has played more not-so-hard maps than him.

Like, 50 regular maps > 1 super hard map when it comes to pp gain
Only if the pro guy literally has one good score and only shit others... which is very unlikely. Believe me, outweighting good plays with worse ones is ridiculously hard in this system, unless map weighting is malfunctioning for easier maps.
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak
I don't really like the list all that much as pretty much everything near the top is unranked, most of those maps I've never even played and I'm not sure just how many people have either to be able to compare difficulty, seeing more of the harder ranked maps would help compare as it's more likely people will know what those play like to be able to compare them properly. It would probably be a good idea to get some higher skilled players who have a pretty good grasp on what makes the maps difficult and have them help out on figuring out a good way to calculate difficulty.
DakkyChan
128 posts
Joined November 2012
DakkyChan
nothing changed on pp v2 in ctb only new farming maps XDDDDDDDDD
Zak
641 posts
Joined February 2012
Zak

DakkyChan wrote:

nothing changed on pp v2 in ctb only new farming maps XDDDDDDDDD
If you're going to complain about ppv2 at least try and give advice on how to improve it instead of making pointless posts with no content.
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

TheVileOne wrote:

I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
I'm not saying I complain about HOW PP IS, I complain about PP.

There's no way to improve pp, make pp a real skills portrait, balance pp maps amounts with pp really hard maps.
PP will never work.

Once again I say it was so pleasant to see players' stats without ranks.

And what I and Dakky said, is just a fact, the unchangeable nature of PP, until it'll exist.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl

119410501 wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I have this growing concern that the CTB pros are going to keep complaining about every remotely non-crazy maps giving pp until the only way you can get pp in maps is to FC hyper filled songs that only the top percentiles can play. I agree that it should require effort to be rewarding, but grinding isn't fun. It doesn't show that you're skillful. It only shows that you've played a song enough time to complete it without missing.
I'm not saying I complain about HOW PP IS, I complain about PP.

There's no way to improve pp, make pp a real skills portrait, balance pp maps amounts with pp really hard maps.
PP will never work.

Once again I say it was so pleasant to see players' stats without ranks.

And what I and Dakky said, is just a fact, the unchangeable nature of PP, until it'll exist.
If you don't care about pp what are you doing here andrea, give me some pizza and pasta for jesuschrist.
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

seicHmsc wrote:

119410501 wrote:

I'm not saying I complain about HOW PP IS, I complain about PP.

There's no way to improve pp, make pp a real skills portrait, balance pp maps amounts with pp really hard maps.
PP will never work.

Once again I say it was so pleasant to see players' stats without ranks.

And what I and Dakky said, is just a fact, the unchangeable nature of PP, until it'll exist.
If you don't care about pp what are you doing here andrea, give me some pizza and pasta for jesuschrist.
farming posts count

no pizza available at 2:10 AM, come back later ! ! !
Seph
Seph
The only way to remove PP farming is to not include easy/normals/hards (unless those hards really do give some challenge, besides adding HR/DT)

simply put, manually adding maps, but that would be a pain in the ass
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

Seph wrote:

The only way to remove PP farming is to not include easy/normals/hards (unless those hards really do give some challenge, besides adding HR/DT)

simply put, manually adding maps, but that would be a pain in the ass
That would still mean noobs couldn't farm even a bit, and pros would farm insanes
Seph
Seph
Well ppv2 is SKILL based, so that just makes sense.
119410501
665 posts
Joined April 2011
119410501

Seph wrote:

Well ppv2 is SKILL based, so that just makes sense.
That would kill the majority's fun.
PP for everyone or PP for no one.
And I'd go for the second option.
DakkyChan
128 posts
Joined November 2012
DakkyChan
PP sucks ^_____^
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Seph wrote:

The only way to remove PP farming is to not include easy/normals/hards (unless those hards really do give some challenge, besides adding HR/DT)

simply put, manually adding maps, but that would be a pain in the ass
Why is that necessary?
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).

Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
HT and EZ plays shouldn't give that much, I have an HT on my best performance = ='
Seph
Seph

Full Tablet wrote:

If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).

Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
how did that become 2100pp when 300+200=500 wat

and who knows, the calculation MIGHT go wrong, and I'm only not referring to easy maps, some okayhard diffs (not insanes okay) gives insane amounts of pp, you just gotta look for them. anyhow this still doesn't change the fact that you can still pp hoard so w/e
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Awarding pp should still be based on relative rank and your relative performances. I believe it still is even with the new changes. It is incorrect to say that removing the value of Easy/Normal/Hard modes will resolve this problem. Noone is saying that Easy/Normal/Hards can be farmed under the new system and unless it is a bug with the system, they shouldn't be able to be farmed under the new system for people who have not moved on to maps far above that skill range.

Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.

The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
Tachibana
51 posts
Joined November 2010
Tachibana
wish i knew how to play with mods :v went from rank 60 usa 1200 overall to 2300 overal and 120~ usa after you fixed the weightedness of no mods
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

TheVileOne wrote:

Awarding pp should still be based on relative rank and your relative performances. I believe it still is even with the new changes. It is incorrect to say that removing the value of Easy/Normal/Hard modes will resolve this problem. Noone is saying that Easy/Normal/Hards can be farmed under the new system and unless it is a bug with the system, they shouldn't be able to be farmed under the new system for people who have not moved on to maps far above that skill range.

Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.

The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.

Seph wrote:

Full Tablet wrote:

If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).

Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
how did that become 2100pp when 300+200=500 wat

and who knows, the calculation MIGHT go wrong, and I'm only not referring to easy maps, some okayhard diffs (not insanes okay) gives insane amounts of pp, you just gotta look for them. anyhow this still doesn't change the fact that you can still pp hoard so w/e
I think you both don't quite understand how pp works. The total pp of a player isn't just his 20 best plays added up or something. The plays are individually weighted by how far up they are.
A player's best play is weighted the most, the second best play a little bit less, the third best play a bit less again, and so on. The exact formula is:
Total pp = (1st Score's pp) * X^0 + (2nd Score's pp) * X^1 + (3rd Score's pp) * X^2 + ... + (nth Score's pp) * X^(n-1)
where is slightly below 1. For instance 0.95.

This way only the best scores of a player are relevant.

If hards, normals or easys are worth too much, then please let me know. It probably is connected to a bug in the algorithm.
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