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Can you elaborate on what you mean by "It would be better to keep it as a slower stream movement with raketapping at least."?

I actually don't think that the kiai sections are anywhere near in intensity compared to the slider parts because of both the intense "ringing" noise in the background, and the "bass drop" at 02:17:261 (which also differs from 01:40:664 and 02:53:858), both of which I wanted to emphasize heavily (though, this may partially be my being gaslit by the intense editing in the video in the description...)

Additionally, I used higher spacing to PREVENT raketapping/cheesing streams, which is something I personally don't like seeing on extremely difficult NM maps

I also don't understand why you call the hi-hats "minor sounds"? It sounds pretty overwhelming to me, so much that I even decided to use the hi-hat hitsound which I normally despise using and hearing, and sometimes even go out of my way to delete from the folders of maps I like

Actually, the higher spacing makes raking generally more viable. Raking produces lots of key presses so streams with notes barely overlapping are alot easier to aim compared to highly stacked notes since you just overstream and notelock/miss the hell out of it if you don't aim properly.

Besides, I'm not sure what is meant by "It would be better to keep it as a slower stream movement with raketapping at least." but the way I understood it is that the viability/playability of a mapping concept is reasoned with that you can rake it. I personally think this is a really bad thing to consider, as raking is a very cheesing way to play the game that's very frowned upon by most of the osu! community.

looks like mappers are out of touch when it comes to gameplay concepts and techniques, AGAIN... but I agree with you on everything else

I alr elaborate on it, The song's speed vibe doesn't support the crazy stream movement imo, maybe it's my bad wording but I just want to say it more understandable mb

Also, I don't think using spacing to prevent raketapping is the reason that you can map like super long death stream, my main point is actually in part 1, I just hope it can be mapped without 1/8 death streams

obviously, preventing cheesing wasn't the only reason... I already mentioned that I wanted to heavily emphasize the parts that I mentioned, the "ringing" noise, the bass drops, and the vocals in the 3rd kiai; spacing and rhythm density are the most elementary ways to emphasize things

Please, let's not get into the song representation argument again, I can't handle this AGAIN

I wouldn't use a niche tapping technique to justify the viability of a pattern and actually use mapping/modding concepts like song representation.

I think talking about the difficulty of the 1/8 stream fitting with the overall intensity or not would be a better topic to discuss.

ye agree with ^

If what I'm getting is correct, you think the song isn't as intense as the map is? How is that not song representation? Especially if it ends up in the exact same no man's land of arguments of "I think it's fine, and you think it's not, and we can't prove each other wrong"

are there like... playtests done? or something? on how this fitting or not fitting the song, some player feedback would be nice on a map this difficult no?

for me, this map has already have its own representation especially on 1/8 stream, it's really cool concept though.

But, i'm really getting biased of how this song should be mapped. For me, those 1/8 streams are really nice if there's no excessive spacing placed which causing Star rating inflation.

I can also imagine if the suppressed stream can causing SR being atleast 9*, it should be more than enough to Challenge players stamina because the essential of this map are like that. Although, the idea of smashing some top players with tons of 320bpm flow stamina speed aim pattern are really crazy for now.

for now i can't decide agree or disagree with this discussion because i'm getting too biased on how objectively see this map.

i'm gonna sub this map discussion to get more information

as much as i don't understand why mapping a 12.5* map of a song, the kinds of which are usually mapped as insane diffs at best, i can't really think of a sound argument against that. i mean, it's not even dump rhythms, it's literally in the song

i think the rest of the map feeling like 1* in comparison to the streams is more of a problem than the streams themselves; even if there's really nothing much to map there

tbf the map feels like a 7/8 stars high bpm map with 1/8 overmaps, with a 12* 1/8 stream practice kiai mapped over small hi-hats

what i meant by that, is that overmap overall is fine in mapping, as long as it fits the overall intensity/feeling of the song— and right now, i don't think such a kiai fits the song

rest looks fine, the map would be much better if the chorus was just properly mapped to fit the rest of the map

i think this map doesn't exceed the guidelines or rules of the rc, sure from an objective standpoint this is an overmap, but there's nothing stating that it's not allowed (yet) so it has no reason not to be in ranked section as of rn imo

This situation reminded me of what happened with hollow wings on genryuu kaiko and how people were saying that that was overmapping and those "song representation" arguments, and now it's considered one of the best maps of all time.
I don't think this should be a reason to disqualify this map seeing how we have evolved and how mapping is currently

well, genryuu kaiko is a good example of good interpretation of overmapping— you don't have just 1 or 2 section that are DRASTICALLY harder than the rest of the map, and the overmap fit the intensity of the song

but tbf genryuu kaiko as a song feels more intense than this song, but that's just my point of view

i think genryuu kaiko is intense in a very different way which hw represented well enough to warrant it being ranked, in modern day nobody bats an eye but thats only because it was too outlandish for it's time, and honestly in 5 years or so it'll probably be the same case for this type of map

@Kaly, if the human being (or atleast mrekk) can play this map properly, then it will be good future for this map.

we don't know what will happen here tbh

"i think the rest of the map feeling like 1* in comparison to the streams is more of a problem than the streams themselves" contrast

"genryuu kaiko is a good example of good interpretation of overmapping" (it's not even overmapping when the sounds are in the song)

"if the human being (or atleast mrekk) can play this map properly, then it will be good future for this map." this is what people were saying about freedom dive in 2012

Can we please keep the responses (and their contents) on-topic and sensible? There's really no need to throw a random meme in attacking a modder for being an 'elitist'.

so I can't post a meme in discussions but 1000 people can attack me in the comments and it's okay

comments

That was not the point of chrombs message?

neither was my meme "attacking" sotarks for being an "elitist" wtf is going on

if you gonna keep the super overmapped kiais map most of them reverse sliders please, bcs aint no way ~300 bpm streams can be justified with hi-hats

I think the discussion went a little overboard with the petty and childish arguments so I'll try to bring back the focus to the concerns of this thread.

Before I start, @Rita it's usually nice to express disagreement without being extremely passive-aggressive on every reply. If someone is bothering you, then report them and move on.

The 1/8 streams are not overmapped since there are constant 1/8 sounds on the kiais.
What I don't think it's really fitting is how the rhythm choice and spacing was handled, so the term you guys are looking for is "overdone".

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1. Spacing:
   I will be looking deeper into what Javin mentioned at #4620291 about the overall spacing.

• 01:52:863 - 03:45:704 - These have a very constant intensity, not much change in terms of pitch or volume until 04:22:301 - where there is some extra layers are introduced and it calls for higher spacing.
  The spacing done at the start of the section (01:52:863 - 01:55:532 -) feels fitting for the whole section, but later on the spacing starts to buildup and go higher and higher even though the intensity is relatively constant and it reaches a point where the spacing is just not really fitting to the intensity of this section.

I think these bigger spacing that are "unfitting" for the ending of the first two kiais would be appropriate at the last kiai instead, as to me the spacing for the last kiai exploded way too much and feels overspaced for such small change in the song.

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2. Rhythm choice:

• Sure, there are 1/8 sounds in the background, but that doesn't necessarily mean this section needs to be as deathstreamy as it is currently. The streams feel way too straining, especially deeper in the kiais as the get longer and longer.

I think having more 1/8 slider reverses like 01:55:532 (1) - as breaks would represent the song a bit better by reducing the overwhelming strain of this section. They can also be used to emphasize different things rather than just relying on stream turns.

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3. Stream turns:

• This is less relevant, more subjective, but the stream turns also feel rather inconsistent because you are following three different things at the same time.

Examples:
01:53:626 - Turns on a snare
01:54:007 - Turns on a kick
01:57:057 - 02:00:488 - Turns on melody? I don't know what those sounds are.

I think would be improved already by changing the rhythm, but doing more consistent turns for specific layers of the song would be beneficial.

This is purely I think the best approach would be to these sections.

Again, take your time to read it and try to not see this as an attack to your map, I don't plan on vetoing or anything. This is merely my opinion.

@Rita Summers, yeah freedom dive was really insane back then until some technology called rapid triggers makes human easier to get good unstable rate at stream, so yeah once again we don't know what will happen in future

I can understand why ppl here are latching onto "song representation" as their basis for these arguements but I must ask that we need to stop using "song representation" as the end all and be all of everything.

I of course do not believe that "song representation" is a bad thing at all I am rather saying that there are other aspects of mapping to consider too. For example in this thread Malphs' gave some reasonings on why he thought the song representation was poor due to the spacing changes, now I don't think this is a "bad" or "invalid" interpretation at all but it's simply different from what the mapper is doing.

(Now im gonna be assuming Rita's intentions here just for sake of argument he can correct me his actual intentions when he wishes to). I think Malphs' interpretation would make the map more boring for players, having stagnant difficulty for a pretty long period of time. I think the spacing variations serve a purpose to make the map more dynamic and fun towards players (even if said variations are "arbitrary" according to the song) by introducing some difficulty progression as the kiai's go forward. These variations only minorly infringe on the song but as a payout allows for more dynamic and fun gameplay.

To repeat myself and summarize, I don't think it's unreasonable to use song representation but only up to a certain extent. There are many other aspects of mapping that are very important (yes this makes things more complicated but that's just how it is).

I agree to a certain point, although what Malphs is saying wouldnt necessarily make it "less boring" to players as its also just subjective to each individual player, also at these star ratings I dont necessarily believe people should actually care for "playability" cuz no way someone passes this without raketapping, resulting in only HT or NF scores anyway, theres no need for more dynamic or engaging gameplay when this map is already just incredibly hard but has to ignore some part of "song representation for it" for it (which I personally dont agree with).

"I think these bigger spacing that are "unfitting" for the ending of the first two kiais would be appropriate at the last kiai instead, as to me the spacing for the last kiai exploded way too much and feels overspaced for such small change in the song." Malphs explained it well imo and would be great to see a nerf on the endings exploding difficulty, considering the song does not get THAT much intense in the last kiai

Just to clear things up - I didn't intend to pass my interpretation as the "right" one simply that it is also a valid and reasonable interpretation. I don't have a problem with the suggestions that people are offering, I just believe that what the map is doing right now is already fine.

I also do not believe that map's must have variation, was just saying that it is a valid choice a mapper can make.

At the end of the day I just want people to argue with sound logic and in good faith. (forgive me for going a bit off-topic here but) I noticed that in many discussions I see people (including BN's and NAT's) using argumentation that rely on certain premises (the big one being "song representation") and I wanted to put question onto if those premises are as sound and as important as people make them out to be.

Although you can reasonably come to consensus on "song representation" at a basic level (so like basic sectional contrast between chorus/verse for example) when taken to a higher level the line get blurrier as people have different interpretations for how they want to represent the song. And also, if people even want to represent the song so much in the first place rather than having other goals for their map.

If anything, I want maps to be seen for more than just "song representation" but as a medium in itself.

(btw i dont rly have too much of an opinion on this map in general just wanted to discuss this bcs i think its relevant)

seems reasonable

theres no need for more dynamic or engaging gameplay when this map is already just incredibly hard

@Sh4rq_ I just want to make a brief post to say that this is not correct because we dont care about its difficulty as you said before I dont necessarily believe people should actually care for "playability" saying that the map is hard is connected to playability so what is really put into question, at least for this specific case, are map cohesiveness (macro intensity changes) and mapper's interpretation (patterning to express the changes in the song)

Ah those are the words for it thanks for enlightening me

@malphs I am not being passive-aggressive, if you think me disagreeing with people, asking for elaboration, or asking for clear, sincere discussion based in objective facts and truths is being disrespectful, then I don't know what to tell you.

Your argument about "intensity" is based entirely on song comprehension and representation. My interpretation of the song is that it drowns me in a distorted "ringing" noise and overwhelming hi-hats, it creates a sort of "falling" feeling for me, which is why I decided to go with the difficulty progression concept: it creates a plunging, accelerating free-fall feeling for the rest of the map.

None of whatever you said means anything. "This could be "better"" (unexplained), "this could be "improved"" (according to who?), "this is "unfitting"" (LMAO). All of this is falls apart before it has any ground to stand on, because this is based in a completely different interpretation of the song.

This is why it's completely useless to argue any of this: I can say it fits, you can say it doesn't, and that's it, this is the end of the discussion. Nothing was exchanged between either of us.

how do you want to have a mapping discussion based on "objective thruth and facts" when pretty much everything that mapping consists of/is based on is subjective

@SaltyLucario i think Rita got the point, as long as the map good in interpreting the song, it should be work well. But if the objective of mapping is to make at least playable map, then this map can be an issue if nobody can't play it properly, however there is no bold statement even in ranking criteria that the map MUST be playable by everyone.

Edit: also yeah even strong suggestion like nerfing those 1/8 patterns are kinda subjective for us, for better diff balancing or something. It can be an objective if everyone here agree with that, but it's not easy thing to do

@Rita I think at first you deserve a little reminder why the "passive aggressive" calls are thrown your way - https://imgur.com/a/9ROf5WB - some of the most egregious responses you've given to modders recently. Asking them to "fuck off" in a slightly less deliberate manner, mocking their arguments and responding with derogatory memes does not make your stance any more valid

About the map itself, temporarily dismissing all the song representation & feel mud-flinging, Kiri posted some concerns about handling spacing and stream turns I agree with:

• Spacing getting progressively larger does make sense for (perhaps) conditioning to the most difficult deathstream sections/artificial difficulty progression but in some places, the streams skip consistency for what looks like running out of space on the playfield, eg.:

04:04:384 (9), 04:10:483 (1), 04:16:583 (9) - the melody notes you would usually put stream turns on come half a beat later in favour of keeping spacing consistently high. I also cannot hear what backs up the NC & extra hitsound on 04:10:483 (1) while it sounds just like the other two

• Very frequent stream turns on the more intense melody sounds in the background cause big intensity spikes that you might wanna revisit, especially since they often are accompanied by spacing increases - all of these combined are infinitely harder technically than just shredding 315BPM, eg. 02:16:499 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) early on, 04:05:527 (9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1), 04:05:527 (9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1), 04:07:433 (9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,1), 04:08:577 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) etc., the most outstanding ones being the final kiai streams, eg. 04:35:358, 04:40:599, 04:52:798. Posting this because the melody layers are somewhat faded, overbore by the hitsounds and distortion, compared to how much straining they become for these moments

@Rita

• "I am not being passive-agressive"

If this is your conduct on a formal and civil discussion, I don't ever want to have an actual argument with you.
Again, we BNs are only doing our job and I am very sure a lot of people here didn't get anything but poison from you.

• "Your argument about "intensity" is based entirely on song comprehension and representation."

Yes? Isn't that what mapping usually boils down to or am I missing something? Trying to represent the song through something intuitive and logical is something very common.

• "My interpretation of the song is that it drowns me in a distorted "ringing" noise and overwhelming hi-hats, it creates a sort of "falling" feeling for me, which is why I decided to go with the difficulty progression concept: it creates a plunging, accelerating free-fall feeling for the rest of the map."

I think your interpretation is valid, but it doesn't mean it's represented well through your mapping. It also doesn't mean my interpretation is completely invalidated by yours, as many people would have a similar understanding to mine.

• "None of whatever you said means anything. "This could be "better"" (unexplained), "this could be "improved"" (according to who?), "this is "unfitting"" (LMAO). All of this is falls apart before it has any ground to stand on, because this is based in a completely different interpretation of the song."

Wow, I can feel how hot the flaming towards me is here. Again, you're saying that my interpretation is either wrong or invalid because it's not the same as yours. Would try to have a more open mind when getting this kind of feedback instead.
When I explain that something would be "better", "improved", or something is "unfitting", I'm just using my basic mapping logic and knowledge of mapping concepts (such as rhythms and spacing) that are intuitive to most of the community and they are what I base myself of when mapping and modding. If these intuitive, logical and generally accepted concepts are wrong, what am I doing as a BN?

• "This is why it's completely useless to argue any of this: I can say it fits, you can say it doesn't, and that's it, this is the end of the discussion. Nothing was exchanged between either of us."

I disagree. Some stuff were exchanged here: I gave you my interpretation of how these sections would represent the song in a more logical way (using intuitive rhythm/spacing) and you expressed your disagreement with venom, flames and mockery.
It's crystal clear that you are very emotional about your map and that anyone that disagrees with you is objectively wrong and that you are correct.

Again, I'm not vetoing this.

@dabbe cherry-picking screenshots of my responses to kids that spent 10000 words saying nothing except "change this circle slightly" and then had a meltdown when I disagreed with them, and then to someone who told me to kill myself (not an exaggeration, AND their post was deleted) is rich... and then you somehow include the ironic jab at MYSELF? And then you post the map spiking at its climax? However, 04:16:583 (9) - this was missing a hitsound, thanks for spotting it, you weren't entirely useless.

@malphs This is not a "civil" discussion anymore, your arguments are based on nothing and are in total bad faith, which I see as absolute disrespect to what I am trying to do, especially after trying to virtue signal "toxicity" on an already resolved issue (#4619836/12266159). However, you may not see your own responses this way, because you didn't use any swears or bluntly inflammatory language! This is the only thing the moderation teams care about, so I forgive you for being blind to it.

Your argument is void because you are using boogeyman non-words that don't mean anything concrete as a serious critique of the map. Intensity and your interpretation of the song do not back up any of the changes you would like to be made in this map, because you are neither the creator of this map, nor the target audience.

I would have an open mind if your critique had anything of value to say. All you're saying is "this is not the map I imagined in my head when I heard this song", which is a valid opinion to have, but an invalid critique to use. You're even using "intuition" as some sort of argument? It's utterly pathetic.

Nice job mentioning how angry I am, definitely not troll behavior (KAPPAPENIS)

What a man has to endure to be this toxic

if you latch your logic and criticism in song representation, your argument is disconnected from reality and mapping cross compatibility - meaning that whatever you say, you treat maps case to case, which also means that ultimately no critique can objectively hold any weight if everything is subjective. at best you are just not experienced enough to articulate your thoughts properly and at worst you argue in bad faith to cause damages in time and mental health to the mapper.

i think it would be great to even deduce what song representation is in the first place if you are going to argue over it this badly and i'll throw my 2 cents in about song representation and mapping in relation to it -

1. song representation is a resultant of every OBJECTIVE element that exists in the map (circles sliders sv changes whatever) and your PERSONAL artistic biases you have acquired over the course of your life - when added, they create a subjective feeling for you.
2. song representation exists no matter what you do, the moment you place your first object there is song representation - it is going to exist no matter what you do.
3. every decision you make in the map is based on whatever outlook you have, there are those i agree with, there are those i disagree with - it doesn't matter for that argument. those decisions interact with one another no matter what style you map in and each object is a resultant of the last, or even those before depending on your mapping process
4. coming back to point 1. - because of the subjective value, you can get 100 different people with 100 different answers about what they feel about a given map - however, a case can happen where it's 90 to 10. does it invalidate the feelings of the minority? it really does not, nor should they feel guilt for their own representation.

you ultimately argue tooth and nail about how something that someone subjectively perceive is wrong instead of elements that are actually real and have real effect on the objects you see. it's a stretch but you are basically persecuting someone of a thought crime which might sound ridiculous but so are most of the arguments presented in this thread.

sadly this map isn't the first time this has happened and where that exact line of reasoning has led to a veto or even borderline bullying/gaslighting of a mapper and i really wish people could see what potential harm there is basing their entire modus operandi on what i just said.

please, don't act in bad faith, or at least don't let bad actors get the spotlight.

when is this getting dq'ed btw, it's obvious that this map is unrankable because of overmapping (also the stream arent even consistent lol)

? overmapping isn't unrankable

I'm losing my fucking mind

to this extreme it kinda is

• ranking a impossible map needs to be near perfect mapping bcs no one will be able to play it

rankability isn;'t the issue,

not going to comment on map or anything but I just think its funny that in a response to being called passive agressive, rita ended the paragraph with "this was missing a hitsound, thanks for spotting it, you weren't entirely useless.."

@amogusrtx3080 nothing that you said is objective nor true, this is far from an impossible map and this is not overmapping since the sounds that support the stream exist

this is overmapping, the sound is there right, and what about the intensity? if streams like this were allowed there were going to be 18* streams map already, and rita said that he spaced more the streams just because of raketapping, not because of the song

that is not overmapping, is just mapping with a different intensity that most people would use, I may not be correct but I'm really sure that overmapping is when you place objects in sounds that don't exist, and even if it was overmapping it doesn't matter because it's not completely prohibited to overmap

Also at this point you are just attacking the map in bad faith since none of your "contributions" to this conversation would have lead to make the map better in any way, you are just attacking the map for 0 reason

I never attacked the map (only if you dont count me talking about when the map is gonna get dqed) + if we gonna discuss about this it's better on dms, and what you said overmapping was is more like overdone rhythm, when I say overmapped im talking about over spacing, rhythm contrast etc (wich is what the map does on all of the kiais and some times on non kiais) and yeah overmapping is allowed but I think this is too much, what I think it's a better idea to do on the kiai is making them like oshama scrable style with fast sliders but this is stupid all about the map is stupid so idc about what happends with this best of lucks to rita i guess

guys just reminder for people joining this discussion to keep on track discussing the main topic of the issues, reading long text is not a good option for the mapper itself.

i came back here because still didn't have any good information regarding this problem, I'm gonna drop this discussion instead because nothing can do for now. thank you

ight I understand the mapper's intention/reason and read most ppl's comments, I think it can stop here
note: I'm just talking to the mapper what's my opinion or even most ppl's opinion, I believe..., and I'm not going to do anything abt vetoing or smth

Wow this guy Rita Summers is unhinged, now they're deleting all their maps LOL

:(

Thank you, this is good for everyone. Let's wait for the results.

point 1 - not a problem at all (clarified on discord)

point 2 - kinda agree with monstrata, but at the same time it's kinda what makes the map memorable, so idk

point 3 - yea. Also having difficulty progression for the sake of progression, especially when two kiais sound identically intense is dumb imo.

point 4 - 100% agree

point 1 2 3 4 are based ty

Reminder to keep the discussion on-topic and civil.

Finally someone did it, but it had to be DQ'ed to fix the out of screen circles anyways, not sure why it was being delayed for so long

Damn... it is rather disappointing to see that this map was reviewed and nominated by two NAT's, yet there was still an offscreen object which is objectively unrankable, and spotted by a Taiko BN lmao

Finally somewhere the opinion of the common mapper has won out

my opinion doesn't matter but i'd just like to say that points 1, 3 and 4 have an incredibly two-dimensional look at the correlation of the song and map, the whole map starts off overmapped and stays overmapped through its entirety, and adding that loud synth melody + the 1/8 hi-hats over what was a pretty slow-sounding song does warrant such a change in intensity,,,, and if intensity were to be the problem, i feel like the map's entire structure should've been attacked instead of just the 1/8 part

also yes, some of the movements feel pretty inconsistent in the chorus, but the aim really isn't the hard part, the movement changing every now and then is pretty predictable, and it creates its own ideas basing them off the synth and in the 3rd kiai - the vocals, so seeing them as just following the snares or cymbals only because of the overbearing/imo overemphasized hitsounds is just misplacing and/or overexaggerating a non-issue

yes please

where is the solution in the veto post cuz it reads like "here are problems 1, 2, 3, and 4" but there aren't any suggestions to make both people happy or at least work around the issues in an amiable way

So, just to clarify:

• You vetoed for the sake of vetoing (to force a discussion…?)
• You don’t think points of your veto are even issues (“don't think it's a problem really”)
• And you didn’t provide suggestions on how to fix anything.

Okay.

@wafer he vetoed to force a decision, not a discussion, since the discussion was going nowhere and the mapper pretty much shows they absolutely don't want to change anything.

Secondly, the veto isn't really his opinion but the a group of opinions from the way that the post is made. That's why he linked the posts as the first point for every reason present in the veto.

Re-summarising the solutions would have been nice though.

u could veto the deceit or skystar's dream walker with similar justification which should make it crystal clear that this veto's reasoning is nonsense
might as well just hold a vote in the bng 'do you think it's chill or nah' coz thats exactly what this veto is

@bag103 I genuinely don't see how any of the points in this veto apply to either of the maps you mentioned.

@wafer it was a group decision...

point 1 - you can arbitrarily decide anything is too hard
point 2 - the deathstreams in the deceit overwhelm the rest of the map
point 3 - the last kiai in skystar's dream walker is way harder for no reason
point 4 - the sharp turns in the deceit dont consistently follow a layer of the song

not to mention the deathstrmeas in the deceit following somehting "monotone" and lacking """"musicality""""

If you're actually asking for melleganol to provide solutions then you're either intentionally being obtuse for the sake of avoiding the actual problem at hand, or you just completely lack any kind of critical thinking skills. If you possess basic English literacy and an understanding of mapping then you can quite easily figure out for yourself what needs to be done here.

In the deceit deathstreams are conditioned by blastbeat and bass drum at 250 bpm, and here only spam hihat. And in the deceit mazzerin emphasized the vocals with angles on the stream. Also there in between deathstreams the song is not particularly intense. This is the reason for such mapping there. You should not compare these maps, because they are fundamentally different in terms of sound emphasis

I would also like to mention the deceit genre - it's death metal. Any metal mapper will tell you that there is no other way to map there

no, he didn't follow the vocals completely consistently.
the song isn't particularly intense between the deathstreams in this song either.
and these hi hats are relatively VERY loud. arguably, too loud to ignore. why are you even mentioning the genre?

Because I think every genre should have its own mapping feature. And don't forget that the map is 5 years old next year, people used to think differently about mapping, used other styles. Mapping doesn't stand still and evolves with the game and I think every mapper should bring something new to mapping, not use concepts from 2018 - 2020

how about a 12* 300bpm sharp angle deathstream map? that's pretty new to mapping.

There is nothing new here, the mapper just decided to take this mapping style to the absurd, to see what will happen, as he did on this map https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/2205633#osu/4707681, taking the fieryrage mapping style to the absurd

can we atleast argue about this map and not some map Mazzerin mapped over 5 years ago ffs

@Sh4rq_ that's what I'm trying to explain. Talking about a map from five years ago is useless

this is getting sidetracked at this point, while i won't claim to have looked at every map in the game i've only seen this style of stream in his my time cripple diff and those are closer to bursts

anyways, i talked about maps other than this map because there's things done in those maps (which are almost universally seen as good) that are seen as major problems in this one for no actual reason

@bag103
I think it's useless to argue further, we'll only make it worse. We need to wait for the response of other BNs and NATs, only they can put an end to this discussion

all i want is a little bit of logic in how people determine what's problematic! i think if you dislike it you shouldn't shroud it in inconsistent bullshit

it's not obtuse to want a solution to be listed in the veto, that's how the rules are. the mapper shouldn't be expected to "figure out" what the vetoer wants, because at the end of the day, regardless of what melleganol referred to, the vetoer was still melleganol. furthermore, that would be the whole point of mediation, if there is no way proposed to "improve" the map, the it just becomes a vote of, "should this map be ranked".

---

putting aside the rules and procedures, no one is going to want to read like 5 different posts on why someone has an issue with this map then also want to write a paragraph response on why they agree or disagree with each point of the veto. I don't think that's all that realistic to expect.

:) Let's proceed to mediation

@wafer

You vetoed for the sake of vetoing (to force a discussion…?)

The veto system has changed. The way it works now is completely different from before, we should forget the old view of seeing the veto as an action of individual power and start seeing it as an act in concert.

You don’t think points of your veto are even issues (“don't think it's a problem really”)

It may not be an issue for me as an individual, but some people are questioning it and seizing the moment to add it to the ballot doesn't seem like a bad idea considering that has ended in an upheld veto in the past.

& @annabel

And you didn’t provide suggestions on how to fix anything.

where is the solution in the veto post cuz it reads like "here are problems 1, 2, 3, and 4" but there aren't any suggestions to make both people happy or at least work around the issues in an amiable way

mb, added, hope it's satisfactory

---

For those who are saying that "all of these are subjective things".

Mapping is not something quantitative but qualitative, just as many things in our society, intersubjectivity is very strong, and it seems strange to me that some mappers try so hard to objectify things when today is when the facts are left more aside in our society (tendency not to believe in vaccines, global change, historical facts, etc).

---

For those who are saying that "the song has those 1/8 rhythms".

This statement works both ways: map the song, not the sounds in the song. Deviating too much from the song and trying to map every sound are two sides of the same coin. For example if a song has a 1/16 hi-hat spam like in many trap songs, you don't go and map them in 1/16 because is not cohesive with the rest of the map, in this case, that's the same thing that we are putting into question in the 2nd point.

Mediation has started, see you in 7 days.

1. "1/8 streams are too difficult mommy help me" —signed, the song representation committee. "It just doesn't fit the song, it's just NOT RIGHT." If you want to bring the culture war into this, you know who else says "it just doesn't fit, it's not natural, it's not right"?

2. "The intense part of the song is mapped intensely wtf" You have not read any of my responses and you demand me be open-minded. Absolutely disgraceful.

3. "Same made up shit as above."

4. "Even more made up shit as a cop out to destroy the map." Why are you telling me to follow only one layer of the song? What is this, a fucking Normal from 2012?

"Mapping is not something quantitative but qualitative, [non-sequitur about the society like you're the fucking Joker], intersubjectivity(?! LMFAOOAOAOA) is very strong, [non-sequitur projecting worries about the culture war]" It's SO. FUCKING. HILARIOUS. to me that you ran away from the earlier thread where your beliefs were challenged, and instead you spawned in someone else to defend your worldview like you're playing Pokémon. Jesus Christ, I can't get enough of this game.

Feel free to silence or restrict me for being "bluntly passive-aggressive" after I've suffered countless stupid people, you doing that after not disproving any of my arguments only vindicates me.

melle no offense but there's no way you're using kataryn youtube shorts as justification for reasoning about your usage of vetoes, right?

the veto threshold for upholding was the only thing that was changed here, it has nothing to do with the process of doing so

as for everything else i'll give some quick thoughts

point 1: you're only bringing this up because this was used in a veto in the past...? the justification you give here seems pointless, and you even state yourself that this isn't a problem you would veto over, so...why is it here

point 2: this also isn't something you brought up and is something monstrata brought up, but regardless -- there are valid points raised in this one which are fair enough to veto over, personally i don't think the mapping of 1/8 here poses that much of a problem to overall difficulty when the rest of the map has been buffed considerably to account for it. it's still a difficulty spike, sure, but it feels more coherent with the map as a whole than it would be if the rest of the map was normal. the point about the 1/8 not being 'impactful' is also pretty whatever since it's very noticeable in the song

point 3: isn't this just spacing progression as the song reaches its conclusion...? i don't get why this is here, this is done in multiple maps

point 4: this already does follow the melody to some extent, i don't really think adding more nuance to the streams is going to do much

@Rita Summers You try to rank the highest SR map of the game and you don't expect backlash, resistance, a ton of people criticizing your work, etc. even tho every map that pushed that limit happened exactly the same thing.

Honestly, you were not mentally prepared to deal with this and it shows. Saying you're suffering because of this, attacking everyone and their mother with passive agressive quotes. And worst of all, if you didn't behave like that, this map would've probably passed at the end of the day because why bother wasting time (just check Heylulu who closed the issue and Malphs who said he wouldn't veto the map).
But your behavior brought this on yourself as well as the nominators of this when you should've tried to defuse the situation, not escalate it.

Take some time off during this next week and start to assess how much you're projecting yourself on your maps and osu, because I believe you're displaying a behavior that anyone who's looking from a certain distance can tell that you're not doing well. It never helps when you behave like this and you should take into account it's not just your map, but also the work of the modders and people who enjoy the map and would like to see it ranked that could be throw into the trash because of your big ego.

Or you can just reply with a meme right after this and make fun of me yet again on social media and ignore when someone is trying to legit give you good advice.

If you feel like you're being targeted by others not being able to understand your ego and your beliefs on song representations and stuffs while trying to rank a 12* map and you're 'literally' suffering from it, uh you should not try to rank it honestly and get some help because the way how you are dramatizing is very farfetched

"But your behavior brought this on yourself" i'd like to point out how unprofessional this is, to insinuate that the veto was caused more by the tone of the mapper's responses rather than the map itself, to by what it seems, cause all this out of spite and aggravate him

"he isn't open to discuss subjective issues" that is a lie -> #4619987/12266373, and also they're SUBJECTIVE issues.. keyword in all caps there, you're just spewing meaningless buzzwords

accept that an objective issue is an objective issue,

Can anybody actually demonstrate how these are objective issues or is everyone just saying words they think sound good? FWIW, I made a genuine effort to reach an understanding in another thread (#4620291/12275923) and just got ghosted. What is going on?

Okay, so I've been reading through the thread, and some of the hate I'm seeing is really unnecessary, so to clarify the 1/8 for some people;

It's there. Almost all of the streams have been mapped to quite clear 1/8 hihats in the background - this an an Extra, and it is perfectly fine to map to sounds that are harder to hear. The fact that you can't hear it doesn't mean that it's not there, and if it is, it's not overmapped. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's fine to dislike this map, but that doesn't warrant bashing on it without even trying to give suggestions to help improve it. You can either give suggestions for the mapper, support them, or stay quiet. There is absolutely no value in going on a map's thread to say "this is shit", "I'll kill myself if this gets ranked", "watch BNs rank this because they have no clue of what a good map is", and so on. All you're doing with that is hurting the mapper's feelings, which is unnecessary. They put a lot of effort into their map, and then someone comes and completely crushes their excitement over their finished product.

A map's difficulty isn't the main factor that determines its rankability or playability. Just look at this map - Inbachi is a very good difficulty, it fits the song well and has good rhythm and flow, but it's 8.31 stars. Despite that, it'd still be rankable with enough modding, and the scoreboards also wouldn't be filled with FC's. It's not inherently bad for a scoreboard to not be filled with FC's - it just means that the map is difficult. It says very little about the quality of the map, and it isn't a real reason not to rank it.

There are plenty of easier ranked maps that aren't really all that enjoyable, but get no complaints because people can play them. This need to bash mappers that make difficult maps needs to stop. It's childish and it doesn't help any mapper with their map. Even if the map is absolute shit, you're not helping the mapper improve by saying things like that. Maybe next time you can try to post in a thread when you have something of value to say, or at least post a decently-sized mod pointing out precisely why the mapper is shit, instead of just saying that they are. And be nice about it. It's not like the mapper punched you in the face. They placed circles to a song for fuck's sakes.

I'm sorry for the long post, but I'm tired of seeing people needlessly bash a map without putting any effort into helping it improve. It's low to do and inhibits a mapper's creativity, because they become afraid of being attacked for trying something new, which causes maps to be of a quality lower than what they could've been.

I really enjoy playing this map. I did from the first time I played, and I still would if I weren't sick at the moment. It's one of my favorite maps in the game, which is why is decided to post this. It needs more support, and I hope that it gets ranked soon. It'll add some more colour to our immense pool of TV size maps that just seem to be mapped to be rankable, instead of being impressive, unique, and enjoyable. Shooting you a star.

Posted 10 years ago about genryuu kaiko, no progress has been made since.
https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/topics/213400?n=89

This? It's not like he saw the object being offscreen in the blown-up screenshot and still said "nope, not offscreen, sorry bud." This is like, the most irrelevant part of this whole ordeal...

You've literally been lectured about how behavior is irrelevant to map quality yet you want to mention it again? And then bring up your own made up scenarios? I would definitely lose my patience quick talking to people like you

@NFmtzX 1969 I don't understand what you mean by "guessing if he did or didn't lie" because that's not what I said at all. I'm saying he didn't REALIZE that it was an objective issue (according to RC) before he saw the blown-up screenshot. Anyway, I initially misunderstood what you were talking about when you said "objective issue" because I expected the replies under this thread to be relevant. So let's keep it on topic from now on, please.

Because there's nothing to fix (outside of the offscreen), bns/modders are the ones that are making this discussion unproductive and unbearable by pointing out non issues.
Like how would you react if you encounter a brick wall that uses pointless and meaningless arguments at you?
Why should you listen to their opinion when they will always ignore yours just because they have a purple name?
This entire conversation was dead the second it started because of how bad it was handled

Please just stay on topic and focus on the actual problems being presented, those being the 4 points risen in the original post.

This is not a discussion on whether the behaviour used was appropriate or not. Nor a discussion on what the difference between Subjective and Objective means. This "he said she said" is leading nowhere. Argue about the subject at hand and the issues pointed out above - not about the "meaning" of the discussion. Focus.

@Kaly feel free to post your discontent elsewhere, but please do not bloat the discussion more than it needs to. Modding is free to be done by anyone, anytime.

Restating my opinion from #4623107/12277534 regarding the 1/8ths: They are absolutely there, and can be represented with some active clicks, but I believe there should be many more reversing sliders since these can be used to emphasize other sounds/"events" in the song, both by using more active rhythms after a loud sound and by spacing the reversing sliders further for emphasis (can be used more sectionally).

#4623107/12278510 could also work in theory, although I'm not sure the mapper would like the idea.

disagree on all points

point 2 - this is like every modern metal stream map - or if you think that kick-spam warrants mapping it actively, i then present to you the words i never said (hi-hats here are a lot less audible here too XD). The other part of the point is just any map that has high contrast (also lets not use sr here cus no way the non-kiai parts of the map are 7*, more like 8*/9* realistically)

point 3 - this is any map that does difficulty progression, something that many maps, including well-esteemed maps do (example). The other part i actually discussed with mellaganol in dms about how there are other valid interpretations but it still got brought up anyway...

point 4 - again, this is every modern metal stream map as well as many stream maps in general. you can apply this to blue zenith and genryuu kaiko

point 1 - i don't even know where to start I just don't get how this can ever be used as a point????? intensity is completely relative to a person's skill someone who is brand new to the game will find a 3* map of a """""calm""""" song difficult and mrekk would find a 7* map of an """"""intense"""""" song trivial.

if there is any extra context needed to show why these points used are applicable to this map but not other maps please feel free to let me know. Otherwise, All of this essentially just feels like a vibe check as evidently other maps arent being held to this same standard. Rita's responses weren't good either but they are hardly less rooted in reasoning and cross-comparitivitey.

Now I don't think Rita's conduct is appropriate by any means but if my map was essentially being forced into a popularity contest amongst those with purple and red names I wouldn't be happy either

@espii
point 1 - u dont think 300bpm deathstream that gets spaced overtime is excessive? this map is 12 stars btw
point 2 - this map isnt metal, the words i never said is 5 stars (this map is 12 stars)
point 3 - this map doesnt have difficulty progression? its 12 stars pretty consistently?
point 4 - blue zenith and genryuu kaiko are mapped according to the intesity of the song (this map is 12 stars)

it seems clear to me this map is only made to top the ranked difficulty section and thats it. cause who would play this? even with HT its not even worth it to play and there are no other difficulties other than this one so there isnt even an easier map for players to enjoy.

@marcelo what does star rating or genre actually have to do anything here. so you're saying if the map was 5 stars its suddenly ok to rank it? or if it was metal its suddenly ok to rank it? the map is difficult, too difficult for any players currently. right. but why is this a bad thing? its only bad through your lens of 12 stars being too hard. as for point 3, yes the map has difficulty progression, even subtle, i advise you to take another look at the map to make sure what you are saying is even correct

yall overthinking this, the map just overdoes everything, simple as that, that's why it got vetoed

honestly, this all reads as "i don't like this map, so i don't wanna have it ranked", but everyone just refuses to say that bluntly and tries to hide that with as much words as possible. as already said by many, this is the same genryuu kaiko thread, but because the map is 12*, the points suddenly make sense (no). this all feels so dishonest

just bring back the nuke button, so none of that is needed

@marcelo ok so you completely ignored my point about "intensity" being relative so all ur arguments about star rating are just completely pointless. On your second paragraph, there are many maps already ranked that have a very narrow audience (other high sr maps being part of them) and if you think that this map truly has no audience i present to you roaz going kynan mode. If even that's not enough I'd say that following how players have been improving i can see it's very likely that players will be able to play this in the, even near, future.

@amongusrtx30080 what ur essentially saying is that we should just throw all logic and reasoning out of the window and just veto everything based on just vibes. if that's the case what even is the point of having discussion? is it simply just to give the mapper the illusion that they have any control in the fate of their map? at this point it'd be more efficient and honest to just have a nuke button (as kudosu mentioned)

@demapping
??? if the map was 5 stars it would be acceptable to rank it.
if it was metal then it could have the 12 star rating justified (like most the 10 star maps ranked)
@espii
star rating is literally the indicator of the maps intensity. a new player shouldnt be playing a 3 star because its too hard for them, and 7 stars have so much variety it doesnt matter for anyone who can play at that skill level.
a high star rating (intese) map can be justified with an intense song. in my subjective opinion, this song does not warrant a 12 star difficulty.

this map cant even be compared to genryu kaiko. that map has a clear theme, with alot of the patterns referencing the scythe the touhou character uses, and it executed it well. (not to mention the map is actually playable) this map only has a couple cool emo lookin slider art and thats it.

basically, i don't like this map, so i don't wanna have it ranked

@marcelo all you had to do was delete everything but the last line

@marcelo yea honestly just edit it and delete everything other than the last sentence. I was under the impression that i misunderstood you but you just confirmed what I read and none of the points you brought up actually make sense

@marcelo how is this not expressing the theme well????? the theme is intimidation and what's less intimidating than a fucking 12* stream map with crazy aim??????

"this map only has a couple cool emo lookin slider art and thats it."

lol who cares if you hate emo shits the sliders are still intimidating af and apparently since only slider arts are important theme inducator to you it worked well af for the map

also how are upside down cross and pentagram more emo than a scythe????????? all 3 are related to hell and death n shits

Agreed + approved opinion by myself @[[[[[[
You are entirely correct and he needs to get demoted as clearly opinion does not matter when it comes to whats gets ranked, so unprofessional IMO!

mapping air

last point might have been dismissed and probably not worth dq, but there's still a clear room for improvement during kiais. At least removing inconsistencies that are too close to each other.

Song representation is not a factor that you should use to judge a map

the first streams have mercy low spacing

02:03:156 (1) - there is no drum here so it's not a downbeat, thus different spacing

unrelated to the original post but re: #4620291/12267297 song representation is a completely valid way of map judgement and even a fundamental part for a lot of modders/bns

You cannot make a judgement on something by unquantifiable metrics.

that is correct, i would like someone that could explain to me the level of song representation in this map to see why that term is even brought to the table

You cannot make a judgement on something by unquantifiable metrics.

this statement is just false lol

lets ban song rep who cares anyways !!!

@melleganol when you say that statement is false i assume you mean the "cannot make a judgement part". Bcs I do not believe that there are reliable metrics (at least not any that is being used) to "measure" song representation past a basic level.

Most analysis' relating to song intensity I've seen have either just been unclear and off of feeling, such as "This feels too intense, this feels unfitting etc" or are based off a shallow understanding of music theory. Furthermore, even if a deeper understanding were to be used it would still be missing the point of music theory. It is a tool used to analyze and understand the workings of music, not to make judgements on certain qualities such as intensity, Those judgements still require a human to be made.

And this is all said assuming that song representation is the only goal for a map, I have some critiques on that view on my other post here #4619963/12267560

You don't JUDGE something based on literal vibes. You can form an opinion on it, maybe even critique it, but you don't solely dictate what is or isn't appropriate song representation if you have no sound argument based on real principles. Morals don't come from thin air. Laws don't come from thin air. If by "judgment" you thought I was talking about opinions, then fair enough. Otherwise, I'm interested to see how you can concretely define or quantify "song representation" and use it to form an objective judgment about a map (past the base level; we all know what timing is) that can't be refuted with "It's my style, bro." Do this and you will have finally pulled modding out of the dark ages, and we'll no longer need to have any of these massive modding threads that ultimately go nowhere every single time.

@semaphore judge and judgment

@espii just to clarify, the meaning of a statement comes from how its parts are combined, is evaluated in its entirety as either true or false, not by analyzing each word separately

yea i figured that wasnt the part that was false but i kinda wanted to talk about that anyway as i thought it'd be relevant

@melleganol I see "after thinking carefully" in both of the definitions you provide, yet I don't see any careful thinking happening when people speak of song representation. Nevertheless, I don't mind whichever word you'd prefer to use here, as long as this doesn't become a discussion of semantics. Can you address the second part of my previous reply?

@semaphore im not melleganol but there are many ways on how a map can be judged regarding its song rep, on this it can be judged seeing how mapper structured other parts of the map, verses are very well designed following a lot of various aspects with a lot of valid techniques, however choruses feels just wrong with the constant insane pacing/movement of the streams without taking much care about the main melody on the background (as mapper has been doing on the verses with bunch of sv changes, movement kill, rhythms, etc)

im not even arguing the overall idea of mapping actively the 1/8 thing, just the overall movement doesn't feel supported by the song or even by just how mapper designed the non-choruses sections whatsoever, in my opinion is just a quite forced attempt of bumping the star rating, not even taking into account the massive diffspike and disbalanced feeling that is present between verses and choruses, verses are like around 7-8ish* and choruses are like everything that bumps the map into 12*, but thats something else

@semaphore I brought you dakiwii because I didn't say anything about song rep in neither of the two threads, I hope my semantic interventions have not seemed insulting or anything like that to you :3c

"feels just wrong" "doesn't feel supported" "disbalanced feeling"

How many times do we, as a community, have to do this? These two paragraphs don't actually say anything, at least in a way that connects with anyone except yourself. You can feel one way, someone can feel another way, and we're right back where we started.

"verses ... following a lot of various aspects with a lot of valid techniques"

Can you expand on what the techniques are and what exactly makes them valid? Can you hold other maps under the same scrutiny even if they aren't made on the same song? I don't mean to sound rude, but it feels like you didn't read my reply at all. If we could at least establish some principles that hold for this map alone, let alone all maps consistently, we could get the discussion moving further.

So... in the event that the veto is upheld, does anyone else want to chip in?

+1 that you can't have quantifiable amounts of representation, the fault in most humans is that we think of objectives when referring to the world and especially art. i believe music semiology (?) can be deconstructed and that you can find a wide variety of meaning and intensity in most music, regardless of what it's trying to convey by a simple listen. we should not view this as black or white, represented or unrepresented. i wish people would stop viewing this as a binary, and instead view it as what it is: an interpretation of one's feeling.

interpretations on subjective matters should never be viewed as incorrect, or invalid. i feel it's disrespectful to the future of mapping, especially as a form of media representation and as a way to communicate in itself, to limit mappers looking to push their maps if they don't line up with the status quo, or what one person thinks is correct over another.

i find this map to be a bit harsh and rough around the edges in some places, but there is nothing being done wrong in it. saying there is will prevent mapping to flourish in the ranked section, and the ranked section does have an influence on mapping as a whole, so i would like to see people view everything just a bit outside of their comfort zone.

if i wasn't coherent on what i mean, please let me know.

"These 1/4 deathstreams being mapped onto monotonous 1/4 hi-hats create far too much intensity and difficulty for the relative value these hi-hats provide to the song."

The fancy evolution of saying;

" stop trying to squeeze an abomination chimera of the big black, freedom dive and strange program on a 173bpm e-guitaresque song, where every normal person would use like 45% of the sum of all hitobjects used here instead"

Either someone veto the map or you guys accept the mapper doesn't want to change his/her mapping, regardless of what anyone here has to say considering what their replies were at this point. You're all just delaying the inevitable and annoying the mapper.

I think vetoing is a valid outcome of this discussion and could lead to fruitful insight on how the BN community views this sort of mapping interpretation.

not gonna throw a whole dictionary in my comment but i feel like the logical thing here would be suggesting rhythm variety instead cause the concept is cool and actually makes sense with the song imo, it just gets boring [if u can say that about 1/8 157bpm deathstreams ig] and that makes the difficulty of actually clicking those 1/8s feel sloppy after a while

also a lot of the clap/finish/other hs detract from the 1/8s themselves [at least in the 1st kiai?], like u could either do more additive hitsounding for the 1/8s or somehow tone down the other hs for appropriate feedback;p?

I agree with all of the above, and I would like to add that this situation is extremely similar to what happened here https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1986827#osu/4127115.

The point of that veto was that the mapper didn't reveal the song enough on non-stream desks, which resulted in an unreasonable diffspike. Here the situation is the opposite - as I think, the mapper extremely overmapped parts of the song from 1/8. Because of which the same situation with unreasonable diffspike is created here. As it seems to me, this problem can be solved in two ways:

1. Increase the complexity of non stream pats by diversifying the rhythm, increasing spacing and so on.

2. On the contrary, reduce the complexity of 1/8 pats. As many people have already noticed, there is no strong 1/8 in the song, it seems strong only when other instruments are in the background. In this case you can reduce the spacing of the flows, make a different rhythm.

My opinion does not claim to be objective, I just expressed my opinion.
Would also like to hear the opinions of other BNs and those who nominated this map. We can't be as knowledgeable about the maps as they are, so would like them to chip in on the discussion as well.

Would like to chip in from a musician standpoint here; these hi-hats you see in the kiais are prevalent and the highlight of most Witch House songs. I think your point of RS' intentions being "abstract" perfectly describes it but I don't see why it becomes an issue here.

I said this in the other thread, but this is just the start of RC boundary pushing, and this exact case happened with maps like Genryuu Kaiko and Notch Hell way back when. Now, those maps are being DTed. Why can't the same progression & circumstances be labeled for this?

1. "The streams aren't """musical"""" ...and the problem is?

2. "The kiais are too spiky" If you were to read any of my responses to anyone else, you would know that I think that the kias are NOWHERE NEAR in intensity compared to the rest of the song, this is why they spike up 5 stars. That's the whole point of the map.

fucking LAUGHING MY ASS OFF at you calling my interpretation of the song "abstract and unsubstantiated", so your or anyone else's interpretation is any more important than mine? Have you read any other critique on this map that isn't just "QUIT HAVING FUN! THE MAP IS TOO HARD!", signed by a rank 100k 16 year old BN?

Terminally online reaction but let's try and salvage some civil discussion. I would just fundamentally disagree. I think the 1/8 hi-hats fail to carry the sort of intensity that would befit 1/8 deathstreams. Certainly, there are 1/8 snaps. But I think it would be a mistake for mappers to start mapping any 1/8 and 1/16 buzz sounds as streams instead of repeat sliders.

As I had expected, I think we just fundamentally disagree on suitable/rankable interpretation, which is why a veto is useful for moving the matter forward. Unfortunately, I think the solution here is to significantly cut down on, if not completely eliminate the use of 1/8 deathstreams, or acknowledge that the map is fundamentally not suitable for ranking based on 2024 subjective standards (maybe this will change in a year?) I know we are supposed to try and recommend solutions to promote ranking maps, but any reasonable mapper can understand that this is a fundamental issue with the map itself, and proposed solutions would necessarily involve ruining the map's concept or interpretation which I'd rather avoid.

In my opinion, the 1/8ths can be represented, but streams this long can appear monotonous, and I believe separating them with more reversing sliders (which would allow one to emphasize louder sounds through streams more effectively, as well as being able to emphasize using spacing between the reversing sliders themselves) would be less monotonous.

Have you read any other critique on this map that isn't just "QUIT HAVING FUN! THE MAP IS TOO HARD!", signed by a rank 100k 16 year old BN?

The "BN" part is the most important of those. Age and rank usually don't matter in terms of mapping experience unless they're really low, especially when you're qualified enough to be a BN. If you're mature enough to be a BN and follow expectations, it doesn't really matter what your age is.

i can offer an option to split the kiai stream: the beginning of the rhythm is followed by the 1/4 stream, and when the song intensifies with drums, it gets more intense with 1/8 stream, then goes back to 1/4 and so on.
probably the stupidest offer, but i really thought of this as a cool representation trick

1. i dont understand how mapping hi hats as monotonous rhythm is any different to mapping monotonous rhythm in powermetal only following kicks and drums with only rhythm variation being repeat sliders for held sounds comparable to 03:48:372 (1) - or kick sliders to map 1/2 rhythm that could be compared to 03:57:903 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -

2. powermetal maps with 4 stars slow sections and 6-7 star kiai getting ranked, if a 50% increase in star rating at kiai isnt unreasonable here, why is it unreasonable on this map?

@demapping, not only just metal maps. here is a song where it's done on only hi-hat's too and its less noticeable too

@espii funny how we came to the exact same conclusion independantly, i only just saw your post on the veto