So, are BNs exempt from this according to what you said at first? They have veto powers too. My veto on this is from me as a BN, and not as a NAT. In addition -- where am I not trying to understand your perception here? I wouldn't be writing dissertations explaining my own points of view and arguing with you if I wasn't trying to understand what's going on.
it's not my perception you have to understand, but the mapper's. it doesnt matter whether you are doing something as NAT or BN, i was just reading the red tag by your name. i was just talking about anyone who had veto power.
These aren't comparable.
there is NOTHING in the music to support odd rhythm groupings in taitou no suika or basara, yet you are trying to argue that there is. that's nothing against those maps, in fact that's part of why i love those maps so much. but to try and suggest that those groupings are implied by the music is utter insanity to me--or you are just fabricating completely tendentious arguments to support your own position. either way there is no point talking about the mapping particulars anymore.
See, you're trying to say that you don't want to be rude or an asshole, and yet you're doing this.
do what? i'm just reporting what literally happened. i have nothing against you, in fact i downloaded the map expecting to support your decision, but one play is all it took to change my mind. i specify "one play" to drive home the fact that i am not digging deep to find some arcane reason to discredit your veto. sorry to use the phrase again, but this is indeed completely surface-level.
why am i being so rude? because i am genuinely aghast at the type of stuff you dont seem to be grasping. usually when it comes to these controversial vetoes (or just controversial ranks, like uncanny long arms), i like to just leave a short comment in support of the mapper, showing that i love the map. i can see why uncanny long arms might be too extreme for some to stomach. in fact, i can even see why this map would be too much to stomach at first glance. but the way you specifically have spoken about this map is just mindboggling to me. okay even if you dont think the triangles are immediately intuitive like i do... bro you said fuwa fuwari was five syllables...come on man...and that's what you're vetoing on? what am i supposed to think at that point
By saying that I'm "clinging onto a narrow view of what is musically possible" despite this, you're just coming across as a douchebag to me.
look i dont think youre dumb or anything. i honestly dont know that much about you as a mapping understander. i like seeing your comments on omdb, i know you used to map jump maps or whatever but that was a long time ago. but everytime i say something rude it's me trying to convey exactly how easy it should be to at least see, if not entirely agree, where usaha is coming from with some of these patterns, and how strange it is to see you as an NAT/BN be unable to do so, at least in this specific case. that's all. at this point i'm no longer interested in discussing the map itself, or some of your other points ive left unaddressed, i'm just trying to wrap things up by communicating my feelings to you and the reasons behind my tone.
there are many things that many crowds dont understand. dont tell me you think non-mappers have complete mapping understanding? the more you study mapping, the more you realize this. mapping is complicated, there's much to understand. for instance, there are things that a few mappers understand instinctively, but since it's instinct, they usually can't articulate or teach others.
i think you are just insecure or something man. you're the one who sees not understanding as something shameful, not me. i always somewhat liked snow note but i never really "got" him until recently, despite everyone else seeming to. and i still dont really get RLC? outside of these kinds of veto situations, theres nothing wrong with not understanding. no need to lash out and starting labeling stuff "pretentious"
normally i dont care if someone sees something differently than me. the world is wide enough for everyone, everyone is always learning, i am still learning. but if you have veto power you have the responsibility to use it well, you have the responsibility to be able to understand the many different kinds of maps that are going to pass through your purview. maybe you cant understand everything, but you have to at least TRY. this is the exact position where narrow-mindedness wont do. if you veto someones map due to sheer ignorance, isnt that 100x ruder than what i'm doing?
i dont think usaha is a revolutionary come to reinvent mapping, i dont think he is the next hollow wings. i agree with you he was probably just having fun when he made this. but before yesterday i had never even heard of this map or mapper, there was no time for this map's concept to build itself up in my head. what happened was i saw a funny clip on twitter about this drama and came here expecting to get to go "lmaooo shitty jump map lets go fiery based veto w!!!!" instead i gave the map one (1) play and it was immediately obvious to me that this map was indeed respecting the music.
The reason the veto happened and why we are grilling him on it is we don't believe that unorthodox interpretation is a good one.
from reading fiery's criticisms of this map (i assume you agree with his points), it's not as if you understood his "unorthodox interpretation" and disagreed with it. there was no understanding, the whole thing flew over your heads. again, generally that is fine, not like nothing goes over my head too. but if you are vetoing something, the standards are higher, you have a responsibility to understand what it is you are vetoing
If the mapper really wanted to stick with triangles here, why not just do
because that's not the same lmao that's grouped in 4s now. but you ask the right question now. the answer is that unusual groupings is a very old and somewhat common technique, it should not be controversial at all. obviously if a beginner mapper is spamming rhythms without paying attention to the music then that's a different thing, but the way it's used here is so contained and so specific that it's clearly intended. if you want an old example of odd rhythmic groupings you can look at 01:02:176 (1) - from 100pa-'s basara. if you want a newer example you can look at this entire section 05:18:662 (1) - from fanzhen's taitou no suika, which you nominated. and these examples are even less "justified" than in this map
The brass instruments do play new melodies here, but 00:23:906 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2) - it's the same rhythm and pitch used for this (and less loud), so why incorporate such a drastic shift in what you're following between sections?
because a song can support different interpretations of it. as i said, a map can reveal different aspects of a song. static jumps may not provide the correct feeling because while the vocal note is held, the song is still moving, as i said, building TOWARDS something. that trumpet is now in an ENTIRELY different context. it's the end of the kiai, there's vocal on top of it, instrumentation is thicker than in the rest of the song. this all contributes to the overall intensity which is reflected by the jumps.
...thanks for the passive-aggressiveness and holier-than-thou attitude, I guess?
I'm gonna be fully honest, it feels like you're trying to deeply analyze what's going on in this map when I very much doubt the mapper had any intention of actually being deeply thoughtful with what he was doing for each and every single note.
that was me being nice, because this is really obvious stuff. other people can miss it, but you're an NAT. if you're going to veto based on musical expression, you should at least know about musical expression. the fact is that i'm not deeply analyzing anything. i'm shallowly analyzing it, because this is all surface level, maybe even subconscious on the part of the mapper. it's because it's so obvious that i have to use many words to explain it. yes that's condescending but that's literally what it is, i'm not exaggerating to make myself look good, it's actually just basic. a map is a reflection of how the mapper understands the music. you've been a mapper for many years now, i hope you've been spending that time looking at others' maps and trying to understand their perspectives and broaden your horizons instead of clinging onto your own narrow view of what is musically possible. that's the great thing about mapping, is you get to experience someone else's perspective. sometimes there is no perspective, sometimes they really do just want to map jump bullshit without regard for the music, and thats a good time to veto. but you should be able to tell when that's happening and when it isn't, and it's not happening here. sorry for being rude, genuinely, but if i acted polite like this wasn't all obvious, i would just be lying
fuwa fuwari is 5 syllables, but the "ri" lasts for the length of two syllables, until the melody repeats. six total. three white ticks instead of the usual 4. i dont want to be rude but idk why i even have to explain this. its rhythmically unusual, so he does something similarly playful, which is to take something that usually comes in 4s and rhythmically group them in 3s. triangles also come in 3s. then the song--and the map--returns to 4 00:44:906 (1,2,3,4) - . this should be obvious, i dont know if you genuinely cant see it or youre just coming up with random reasoning to defend your position
as for the back-and-forths, the tension is definitely not decreasing in intensity. not objectively, at least; if you mapped it as decreasing in intensity the song would probably support that too. but it supports an increase of intensity also, because halfway through the jumps the singer holds the "no" syllable for a pretty long time--and a held note often increases intensity--and also because the trumpet starts blaring out a NEW melody at exactly the same spot. the "no" syllable and the trumpet end also at exactly the same spot, which is where the jumps end too: 01:12:906 (1) - . the pattern AND song are also clearly building up TO something, which is this dismount 01:12:906 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - . expression through contrast.
from a difficulty design perspective, i can agree the back-and-forths may be overtuned. but if you vetoed this due to song representation, then yes: there is something i'm seeing that you're not. this isnt a meaningless jump practice map that ignores the music to spam jumps for no reason. you couldnt understand the patterns and vetoed the map, okay, you were just doing your job, its an important job. everyone misses something once in a while, me included. but now i'm telling you, this map is absolutely 100% not that kind of map. maybe the mapper secretly intended to make some limit testing jumpspam bullshit, i dont know. but even if thats the case their experience/"skill" was enough to ensure that the map still interacts with the music in a relatively fun, interesting way.
played this expecting to hate it but i actually kind of like it??
the 00:09:906 - to 00:25:406 - section is pretty specifically organized. it comes in blocks:
00:09:906 (1,2,3,4,5) -
00:10:906 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
00:11:906 (1,2,3,4) -
00:12:906 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) -
ending/transition 00:13:906 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,1,2) -
and then the whole thing repeats because the music repeats.
the section alternates between jumpspam and non-jumps. if you play through the entire section while listening to the chords; the melody, the bass trumpet (or w/e that instrument is), and the way they work together, it becomes exceedingly clear what these jumps are emphasizing. and it's meaningful that he DOESNT jumpspam the ending/transition section.
to me the triangles are the most obviously justified jumps in the whole map? the vocal line (beginning 00:41:906 - ) repeats here 00:43:406 - on the small white tick, and not the big white tick: 3 white ticks total. since the vocals divide the music into 3s, the mapper also divides the music into 3s with triangle jumps. it's very playful and very intuitive. difficulty/ds-wise it's also not out of place for the rest of the map
the jumps ramp up in the kiai but it's the kiai, where else is it gonna ramp up? feels like a suitable place to take the map to. the back-and-forths are a very creative and effective take on that bit of the song. the melody takes a breather but the tension of the song is coming to a head, and this pattern captures both pretty well. building tension in such a simplistic way is especially nice if you break that tension properly 01:12:906 (1,2,3,1,2,3) - . distance-wise it's slightly larger than i would personally like, and wayy harder than the rest of the map. but if the mapper still wants to keep it that way i support it
im not sure as to the intentions of the mapper, whether he mapped it specifically to abuse the pp system or what, but i came here expecting meaningless jump slop and this isn't that. i hate jump slop as much as the next guy but jumps dont automatically mean bad. many choices here (throughout the entire map, not just the controversial ones) are musically motivated and work well, well enough that the mappers' intentions dont matter anymore. as for whether the song can support a 7* jump map in general: yes, it's a cutesy little anime song sung in a whisper, but it's also got energetic trumpets and a bouncing bassline. a map can reveal different aspects of a song. i wonder if fanzhen's original Something Just Like This would have been vetoed now, in 2025?