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Let's talk about Loved.

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Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,956 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru
In my opinion, the first system, where people could vote for the next Loved maps was the best, I mean it had more sense than nowadays Loved maps.
I already received some message from my friends that was asking me if I could shoot some kudos and a fav on their maps. But to me this system doesn't create a Loved map, the true Loved maps was the first ones that got Loved.

That's just my point of view, maybe it got stopped because the people that manage this was probably busy, and I can understand it. (I'm sorry if the reason why the system changed is different from what I'm saying, to be honest, I didn't read the text explaining why the Loved system changed.)

Have a good day everyone :)
Ovoui
995 posts
Joined January 2013
Ovoui
The old voting system was bad because maps were chosen by the staff imo.

Maybe be a vote were people are free to submit their maps could be a good alternative idk.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
The maps weren't chosen by the staff, actually. They were an aggregate of high favorite maps and random suggestions from a variety of "which map should be Loved" threads that were extremely popular at the time.
Ovoui
995 posts
Joined January 2013
Ovoui
I didn't know, my bad.
Kyujuroku 96
246 posts
Joined August 2010
Kyujuroku 96
My suggestion would be making a section for pending maps that aim to be loved so lets say BN's or high level mappers can nominate them every set amount of time. Then people vote. Its a good way to ensure quality without using sp
SnowNiNo_
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
2,108 posts
Joined April 2013
SnowNiNo_
well this is wat i think
i kinda agreed with Natsu's post
however, i think community votes is still necessary (preclude the maps dat doesnt rly good), and the maps required only 100 favs, and it can be nominated by anyone (consider the mappers already quit or w/e)
imo sp isnt rly necessary in loved, cuz loved maps supposed to be popular gravedyarded maps (but u can still replace favs with kds)
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
The thread is too long and I can't be bothered to read the whole thing, but in general, at least in my opinion the mapper should have no direct influence to if a map is loved or not. The point as I see it is that the loved section is supposed to be maps that the community loves, and then limiting one of those factors to not only be just a subset of the community (star rating), but also something the mapper themselves can directly manipulate kind of backwards. Letting the mapper have this control also makes it much easier to cop-out and "aim for loved" rather than actually going through with the ranking process. Loved shouldn't be an alternative to ranked, it should be specifically maps loved by the community. It shouldn't be a place to throw unrankable maps, or anything. Even if there is a good map using unrankable elements "aiming to get loved", the criteria for it to get there shouldn't just be "good, but unrankable", but also actually liked by a good portion of the community.

I think in general having some kind of preliminary voting for nomination, such as giving every player (or a subset if we want to go that route) a finite amount of votes on any map they love, then round up the maps with the most votes, and have a final voting round similar to what we had in the beginning could work. This would require implementing new functionality to the website or client though, as it needs to be something that's easy to do and also different from favorites, since people have been using favorites for a lot of things, and won't necessarily reflect what they love the most etc.

That's my pov anyway. I feel like the loved section right now feels more like an alternative to the ranked section where rules are much laxer, resulting in poor quality maps being loved, rather than what it truly should be; a reflection of maps the community deems good. In that sense, having maps that are already ranked in the loved section as well does make sense, if we think of it purely as a label for what the community enjoys, and not necessarily a completely different category.
laport
1,240 posts
Joined June 2010
laport
+1 What Cxu said, I'm all for the voting rounds.
And for voting, perhaps splitting into categories of mapping settings / (which is usually related to submit era) come to mind.
For example "2009" "2010" etc?
I'm right now wondering how an old loved map such as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/16987 could achieve the Loved status, because as far as I understand and I could be wrong, it currently won't?
Every now and then I am looking into the Loved section, and I notice certain maps made recently with far less favourites are in there while some golden oldies are still missing in my humble opinion.
Especially when you take the relativity into account, for example the map I mentioned was from a time when the community was much smaller in size and reaching 100 favourites in those days was a much bigger thing than nowadays.

Anyway, I love the initiative and I am looking very much forward on all developments of osu! in the future.
Ritzeh
Former osu! Champion: 2016
283 posts
Joined August 2011
Ritzeh
https://twitter.com/NoModChamp/status/874561771448565760
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Time to tidy this up, I think.

The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).

It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.

I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
my opinion is relevant i swear i totally didn't come here cause i saw eph bitch on twitter


it would seem like a very easy idea to let the community decide which maps are loved or not through going to a qualification state (see what i did there) during where a map is open for play and after playing, people have to vote if they liked it or not (and not some arbitrary 1-10 scale that nobody will know how to use right) and if the map has a good enough positive/negative ratio, it gets loved.

seems like the most painless way to do things that gathers the biggest amount of data from players

someone fucking prevent me from entering these forums i keep giving my opinion on a game i have not touched in 2 years
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,957 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
i'd only support a voting thing if there's something like a suggest cool maps to be put up for a voting instead of ephemeral randomly hitting up all the places in order to get a list of maps that have a lot of favourites

wasn't there someone volunteering to oversee a voting list like this anyways

if you have like a criteria that goes among the lines of
mapper or map should be graved for X or visibly abandoned
vastly higher favourite count for this thing
and someone to do like the shitty work involved with that sort of thing

i think that could work

given that i know how the numberrunning on kd requirements went down halving the thing seems pretty agreeable, though i doubt that the favourite thing lowering the kd requirement is going to be all that clear for everyone unless you include a fucking calculator in some very obvious place and adjust secretary-chon's worst nightmares accordingly if you do that
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Toy's mentioned on twitter that he'd like to help out, so I figure he'd be a good starting block.
Asaiga
848 posts
Joined July 2013
Asaiga
I don't mean to be irrelevent but does it take really that long to get a map loved? I filled the form and sent a confirmation pm to Ephemeral on 18th March and nothing happened since :/
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
The system we had in the past was very rudimentary and prone to missing people. I sorted out a case earlier today where someone had been missed for nearly three months. Toss me a PM if you're concerned and I'll look into it.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.

Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.

Everybody wins.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,957 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked

and approved maps are just that approved via a process
Izzz
265 posts
Joined July 2015
Izzz
hi am really late
im in the minority but i honestly don't like the concept of a higher favorite barrier because it limits many of the most creative maps there are. You could make an entirely new section if you really had to, similar to loved except the maps would be hand-selected with the goal being to expose/give leaderboards to maps that lack the popularity to make it to loved as you proposed it.

if you do bring back voting, please try to keep each batch of maps fairly similar in qualities and favorites. Then you can tell for sure if the selected maps truly are what people'd prefer in loved; as it was, a good map being put in a bad batch could ruin its chances of being voted in. Maybe have a theme for each round, like maps around a certain amount of favorites, jump/stream practice maps, meta-bending maps, etc.

also, have you considered putting all unranked maps used in world cups into loved? they've certainly proved their quality, and probably deserve a leaderboard, don't you think?
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

ah yes the "we used to do this back in 2009" new idea

i don't mind it coming back really
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral

Okorin wrote:

so marathons will be called marathons or what and just ranked

and approved maps are just that approved via a process
Guess we'll need to provision for them in the RC, yeah. Another topic entirely I think. Failing that, we can just also make special exceptions for Marathon maps.
Anemic Witch
179 posts
Joined October 2015
Anemic Witch

Ephemeral wrote:

What if the mapper is inactive or has left the game?

This poses a conundrum. What if a mapper does not consent to having their map deemed "complete" enough to have a scoreboard? What if they do not or never intended the map to have one in the first place?

At what point do we assume the mapper's intentions for the map in this process? Is this something we should consider at all?

I have no answers for these questions. It is a complicated topic, and we have deliberately erred away from adding very dated maps from the most part after this issue was raised VERY early on in the community voting for the first round of Loved.

There are maps that I would love to see in the category, but with their creative directors long vanished from the game (Larto is a good example of this), often times with unclear intent for their creations that are left behind, it will likely remain a very difficult issue to resolve fully.
I don't see issue here because if mapper had posted his map on the forums it already belongs to the community in some way. If community loves map and wants to see a leaderboard on specific mapset, mapper is not obliged to actively participate in this process.
Alem
44 posts
Joined November 2015
Alem

Ephemeral wrote:

Time to tidy this up, I think.

The general consensus seems to be that the expectation for the category is to unequivocally support maps that are highly appreciated by the community. By large, it appears that most people do not endorse the ability for mappers to contribute a majority share of the SP requirement via their own kudosu (though people from the modding community do support this as it obviously empowers them).

It also appears that there is large support for a return to the community-based voting to determine at least a nominal number of Loved maps to enter the pool.

I think we can address this by implementing the mode-specific scaling SP/favourites requirement as listed in this post while also imposing a hard limit on the amount of SP that can be contributed by any one user - perhaps something to the order of no greater than a third of total contribution towards the base SP cap. We'll also start holding votes for older maps with inactive or uninvolved mappers that have widespread community support, though the number of maps this will introduce per month will be very limited (2-3) to start with.
When Rezoons Jump training maps then?
autoteleology
763 posts
Joined October 2014
autoteleology
Alright, I read the whole thread and I'm ready to put my two cents in.

First, we need to clearly define "What is Loved supposed to accomplish" because surely we don't have this whole category to be cute, right?

Ephemeral wrote:

Over the years, a common complaint with the ranking cycle has been that it is fairly restricted for most people [...] especially if it tailors to a distinctive audience, or seeks to attempt gameplay paradigms that are not allowed by the current Ranking Criteria.
So we define "Loved" as attempting to highlight and immortalize maps that deserve attention or are cult classics, but explicitly do not and will not fit the criteria to be ranked. So, what's the best way to accomplish this task while avoiding pitfalls, explits, and controversy such as:
  1. The creator of the map can easily manipulate the system to glorify themselves at the expense of the goal of the system.
  2. Modders have a very controversial extra ability to impact the process.
  3. Too many maps enter the Loved category too quickly.
  4. osu!standard gets almost all of the slots because it's got the lions share of players.
  5. The qualifier has multiple requirements that may not all be met, and are balanced together in a manner that attracts controversy in terms of unfair weighting between requirements.
Here's my suggestion for the Loved system that I think resolves all of these issues: Maps become qualified for Loved once they become a certain age (I suggest one year old) without being rankable, and have a certain amount of total plays (I suggest somewhere between 25,000 - 100,000) among a certain amount of unique players (I suggest 2,500). Lower standards can be applied to game modes other than standard.


Some commentary on what others have said in this thread:

burntcedar13 wrote:

we're involving sp because it's actually worthless otherwise [...] the loved section is supposed to be about the community (which is mostly players), not mappers.
Couldn't agree more. That seems to be the case as to why kudosu is involved - because the staff have failed to incentivize modding properly, so the reward for modding is being shoehorned into this system, to the system's explicit detriment and abuse.

melloe wrote:

[the modders] make the maps for you to play and they know more about mapping than the community
Do they know more about fun than the community, or do they know more about rules?

A severe dunking wrote:

Ephemeral wrote:

I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of removing SP qualification from the system entirely - the modding community should have some sort of investment in the system themselves given the work they both undertake to make it a thing in the first place.

chainpullz wrote:

The modding community works to make the ranked section a thing. If a map is getting heavily modded it should be getting ranked not loved.
Why are the people who focus on making something rankable whether it is fun or not getting an undue say on literally the exact opposite type of mapping category?
Arzenvald
4,056 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
  1. We will regularly be adding maps based on community votes.
with 100 SP being thrown by the mapper into their own map, its not relevant for now
xLolicore-
636 posts
Joined June 2014
xLolicore-
Is it in effect yet?
sxy62146214
Beatmap Nominator
227 posts
Joined May 2016
sxy62146214
Well actually.
I think have a standard on SP is quite a bad idea.Since shooting & earning stars are quite easy.
Nowdays,mappers who have 100+ kds aviliable is very common.So for some reason,it's teribbly easy to push a low-quality map to Loved state.(If they want)
The old voting system is a littke better but still bad.Because it's BN choose the maps which can be voted.There're some BNs' personal tastes.
And now fav effects SP? wtf.

I agree with Monstrata for his Loved-Score system.And I had a new idea called "Loved Switch" to solve the inactive-mappers problem.

1.Loved Switch is a switch to control whether this map can be loved or not.It is controlled by mappers.It's default closed when the map is in WIP/Pending while it's default open when the map is Graveyard.Of course,Mappers should be able to open/close the switch if they want.
2.20 Loved points per fav and 5 Loved points per SP.
3.fav can't effect SP.
4.The basic points is 700 and it should be added based upon the diffs mapsets have.
***100 points added per Std diff
***50 points added per Taiko/Mania diff
***20 points added per CtB diff.
For example,if a mapset has 7 Std diffs and 3 CtB diffs,it can't be loved unless it reached (700+7*100+20*3)=1460 Loved points.
5.Loved is updated by machine,not nomiators.(Every 10/15 days)

There must be lots of mistakes in my opinion.Hope it's helpful /w\

Btw,I think the new system Ephemeral will be worse.First,it will make Rank more easily because fav effects SP.And because of the 50SP,send a map to loved state will be easier.
For high-level mappers,they have more than 100 fans.
AshbeII
88 posts
Joined October 2015
AshbeII
most loved maps only have 1 diff tho
Scarlet Evans
345 posts
Joined August 2014
Scarlet Evans
What about maps, where mapper is unable to do anything in this matter, for example because he's banned?
There are known and loved by people maps like this one:

JerryC - Canon Rock

Many people really hoped for this mapset to become loved, but then criteria changed and as the maps were being made Loved by staff at the beginning, then now mappers must fill in a form... which simply kills of maps like this one :cry:

I still hope that something can happen in this matter and maps like this one can become Loved.
Raveille
787 posts
Joined February 2012
Raveille

Ephemeral wrote:

Actually, scratch that. New idea.

Loved as it is currently known, is renamed to Approved. Approved maps follow the SP/favourites criteria outlined earlier - you meet them, you get in. No questions asked.

Every month, a poll is held based on a selection of highly favourited old maps. At the end of the month, those maps are collated and the winning maps (number yet to be decided, perhaps 6-12) are made into a Spotlight complete with ranking chart and are automatically given the Approved status if they do not already have it.

Mappers/modders get their open scoreboard category, community gets their vote-based, curated content section with scoreboards full of maps proven to be liked by at least a reasonable majority of active and engaged people.

Everybody wins.
This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.

There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.

Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.
Arzenvald
4,056 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh
Scarlet Evans
345 posts
Joined August 2014
Scarlet Evans

Raveille wrote:

This sounds like a good idea except mappers can still shoot 100 stars by themselves to get their maps into the Loved (or Approved) category.

There should be a limit to how many kudosus a mapper can actually give to an individual map.

Edit: Reason being, Loved maps are a community effort. A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

Arzenvald wrote:

^ Just don't count mapper's own SP into the calculation tbh
It's still easy to evade, if you have two mappers with many stars and similar objectives. They simply can exchange stars, i.e. boost each other's mapset with own stars, giving exactly the same result as if they were to use them for their own maps.

Which means that it won't really affect these mappers, but the people without connections, who can have problem to get the stars in the first place, so they kind of more depend on community and more players (which is good?). With this, they will have it even harder, as they won't be able to use their own stars.

So, I think that doing this wouldn't change much, aside of:
  1. making even bigger discrepancy between average mapper and the ones, who can throw high number of stars on their maps,
  2. giving a birth to the Black Stars Market :P
sxy62146214
Beatmap Nominator
227 posts
Joined May 2016
sxy62146214

rakuenslove wrote:

most loved maps only have 1 diff tho
And my idea is unfair for general.
what about cosidering drain time?
Loved points = (700+100*Std-diffs+50*Taiko-diffs+50*Mania-diffs+20*CtB-diffs)*(The longest drain time in mapset/180)
:thinking:
Fontes
110 posts
Joined August 2016
Fontes
The current Loved system hav two key issues.

1. Kudosu does not reflect the whole opinion.

It does not make sense to decide to vote with kudosu in the first place.
becuz kudosu can only be gained by person who did modding, so people who just enjoy playing only
cannot exercise much influence.
cuz the 100 kudosu condition is main requirement, this system is their own league; who do mapping or modding.


2. With Kudosu, multiple voting is possible.

Do you think it makes sense that when one chooses a member of the parliament, one person exercises several votes?
This is a serious problem that contradicts the purpose of 'Loved'.



First of all, we need to make sure the concept of 'Loved' clear.

I agree with CXu's opinion to some extent. 'Loved' is a completely different category from 'Rank',It is a map that has been steadily loved by people.
This is a way of gathering a large number of purely subjective opinions rather than objective ones, it has nothing to do with quality and playability,
cuz this is not rank category. that was the first way of Loved.
But before the voting system changed, actually the Loved maps are good in quality and popularity.
The favorite number and quality of the old loved maps and the current red votes disprove it.



By the way, The reason people say when they make a map like 'aim for Rank' or 'aim for Loved',
Becuz Rank and Loved map has promotional effect.

How would ordinary players find maps on OSU homepage?
They will search their favorite songs or look at the front page of the main category. It is typically Loved and Rank.
Most mappers will want to show off their map to others. it is natural,


But as a player,personally I don want to see the maps just made with short term in loved besides, I hate it if it's a map that people do not love.
Anyway to sum up, the way the map is chosen, not the problem of the map itself, is completely wrong.



If you want to continue the current way, Osu hav to make one more category like'Under Rank.'
similiar with Major and Minor league in sports.
Certainly, this does not fit the name 'Loved'.




so, Remedy of present Loved in my opinion,

first, Kudosu must be removed from the map selection criteria to fairly reflect the views of everyone.
and I think it is better to raise the Favorite upper limit to at least 100.

And with this, first questionnaire type is ideal.

Above all, current Loved does not have a manager to supervise the selection of the map unlike the Rank like BN and QAT.
So more than one manager is essential i think.




I hope the current Loved status will be better, and a hidden masterpiece that many people love wil come as legend.

Nonetheless, the current system is so far from being clear about the concept.
vanessahime
3 posts
Joined February 2017
vanessahime
w..what...
FlipSide82
FlipSide82
idk XD"
Ryzen_old_1
Ryzen_old_1

Raveille wrote:

A mapper can just ask random people to favorite his map and he can shoot 100 stars to the map and go for submission currently, which is not what Loved maps are.

Another Lie wrote:

ok Raveille triggers me. Sorry for that i already do that for beethoven
[ Ari Knight ]
237 posts
Joined March 2016
[ Ari Knight ]
just my thoughts...

-voting by favorites might be good idea (since if using kudosu that just only who have been modding can do that)
-about SP, 50 is fairly enough
-maybe 100+ fav will take the criteria
-and SV map? playable only plz...

please don't blame me if i got wrong XD
Miutrex
61 posts
Joined July 2016
Miutrex
WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,956 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru

Miutrex wrote:

WTF?
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/344371
THIS MAP LITERALLY DOES NOT HAVE ANY SP, AND IS LOVED !!!
NEVER EXCEEDS THE 100 FAVS
WHAT THE HELL YOU SET RULES IF YOU BREAK THEIRS?
THIS SIMPLY WILL GENERATE MORE CONFUSION THAT THERE IS ALREADY COMPLICATED THAT IS FOR YOUR MAP TO ENTER ANY CATEGORY OF RANKING
I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
Don't caps. Moreover, look at the time it got Loved, during the old system, that's why it got ranked. Now stop yelling please.
7ambda
2,589 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda

Miutrex wrote:

I JUST DON´T UNDERSTAND IT
You're right, you don't.
CircusGalop
121 posts
Joined June 2015
CircusGalop
How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
Last edited by CircusGalop , edited 1 time in total.
Mipha-
266 posts
Joined January 2015
Mipha-

CircusGalop wrote:

How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
I could agree with this, since user rating system hasn't been in its upmost uses after all, but there's only one thing.

Since what I see is that the user rating system is highly subjective, the beatmapper and the players can easily give 10/10 on each of the said category map. Which is pretty unfortunate, that rating system won't give out their honest rating as you might think it is - since it is easily dominated by the propaganda of the given map..... and that could be very risky.

Also agreed to the previous suggestions which are to limit giving SP, because it's already done by someone to purposely making the map "Loved" without any given lookout and further ignored mods. Shooting your hard-earned 100 stars right off the bat is just straight up dumb, I hate to say that. Keeping high favourites are great as well.
CircusGalop
121 posts
Joined June 2015
CircusGalop
I realized that the additional conditions are needed like this.
Required raters : at least 100
How long keep those conditions : at least 2 weeks after last update

I thought as follows.
If many raters vote, manipulation of average User Rating will be difficult.
The number of favorites is dominated by popularity, but it does not reflect how many people are dissatisfied with this map.
If the average rating is not enough to make something a loved map, the mapper can try to improve rating by changing to WIP and improving the map.

Of course, user ratings might not reflect the map quality. But, this allows us to filter out the maps which a lot of people don't like and to give feedback to the mapper in a different way. I would like to hear more opinions about this.
h3oCharles
1,502 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
Akali's (submitted by Sugoi-_-Desu) Knife Party - Centipede is the perfect example against this
DDMythical
DDMythical
Every map that meets their respective gamemodes' kudosu/favourite mark should be put into a pool. Then the community votes on X (10%) of these maps to be loved every month or so. The maps that don't make it have to get 30% higher kudosu/favourites to be able to enter the pool next month.

For hybrid sets; just account the most popular gamemode. For example if a set has 4 mania diffs and 1 standard diff. it will require the standard's limit of kudosu/favourites.

This stops people from putting 100 kds and getting randoms to favourite their map and then getting it loved no questions asked. The community then has to agree that the map is good. the 30% increase each time (100, 130, 169) will stop mappers from repeatedly putting a mapset into the pool when nobody wants leaderboards on it.

however long this mapset has been around for is irrelevant.
Last edited by DDMythical , edited 1 time in total.
Reazen
213 posts
Joined August 2013
Reazen
I think "loved" is not the place where you should add maps regularly. Maps that community truly love is not something that you can add every month by votes I think.. It's just a popularity contest, who made more interesting map with unranked patterns, weird spacing etc. Loved should be something more "holy" (?)
Maps that had great impact on community over YEARS, not week/month. Maps like that old nightcore jump practice that everyone played, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/48738 (oh man this is genius). You can actually see though download count (not in every case but still) in current loved section what is truly loved, everything below 100k should be just removed. I think there should be at least 1-2 year in graveyard/pending to qualify for loved.. It doesn't matter if map gets attention for month or two, if it's forgotten over year it just means it doesn't really have to be in loved. And why loved should be something that is not flexible. What about some voting what should not be in loved? It's not like players lose pp from removing maps. Who needs many maps in loved anyway, true "loved" map is not something that appears every day/week. To sum up, there should be at least two ways to get loved. Using community votes for really old maps and download count for new ones.
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,956 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru

Reazen wrote:

everything below 100k should be just removed.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
CheezyDawg
31 posts
Joined June 2017
CheezyDawg
end loved plz i need more pp
Reazen
213 posts
Joined August 2013
Reazen

Pachiru wrote:

Reazen wrote:

everything below 100k should be just removed.
a lot of people don't play loved map cause it doesn't give pp and that's why there is not much maps that got 100k plays .
also because a lot of maps have high SR so not everyone can play it
Then how these high SR maps still have more dl count ?? That's what loved is about ppl plays these maps even if it does not give them pp.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
Yo !
I didn't really read each post of this thread, and i think i'm not the only person who asked for this.
Is/will it be possible to have a mapset which is going for Ranked section, but in this mapset there's only a diff which goes for Loved section, because the diff itself is technically unrankable ? (all tag4 maps that were ranked before are now in Loved section, but the other diffs are in Ranked section)

I can give you an example if you don't see what i mean.
"I'm planning to make a full mapset on a song in standard mode, and i want to add a TAG4 diff but not as external diff. It is part of the mapset but the scores on it don't give pp, so it is for loved section"
Drum-Hitnormal
Beatmap Nominator
1,727 posts
Joined March 2011
Drum-Hitnormal
Is loved status supposed to be way harder than ranked?

Getting 100 favorites on a 7K map seems very hard when about 90% of players only play 4K.

Why have the same requirement for all modes when the size of player base is drastically different.

The requirement for favorite should be x% of total player base for that key mode.
Example: There are 100,000 players for 4K, set requirement to 0.1% you need 100 favorites.
There are 10,000 players for 7K, you need 10 favorites.
There are 10 million players for STD, you need 10 000 favorites.

Where as the requirement for kudosu would be based on active modders.
Example: There are 10000 mappers for 4K, set requirement to 10% = 100 kudosu.

Favorite is more of a limited resource than kudosu since you are capped at 50 per account and you get banned for multi accounts. Considering this, the requirement for favorite should be lower than kudosu requirement.

Only map that break ranking rules can be loved is a fair requirement.

I think the intention of having "Loved" is just a backdoor for pending maps to get attention, not actually meant to represent what the community loves, is that right?

There would be no need for loved if the ranking system was only based on # of mod + # of plays
Last edited by Drum-Hitnormal , edited 1 time in total.
blobdash
912 posts
Joined April 2016
blobdash
Loved section should stay with the same requirements (100 kudos, 15 favs (or maybe more favs idk)) but let the community vote. As DDMythical said, there should be a pool of selected maps with 2 or 3 maps in the end.

Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,956 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru

FruityEnLoops wrote:

Loved section should stay with the same requirements (100 kudos, 15 favs (or maybe more favs idk)) but let the community vote. As DDMythical said, there should be a pool of selected maps with 2 or 3 maps in the end.

Play count/Download should not be involved. Unknown mappers (mappers that never ranked anything like me/non famous mappers) will get less downloads and plays because the players won't be following the mapper's new maps, so it's a bad idea to involve these stats in loved.
I agree with that idea.
Wutever
38 posts
Joined February 2017
Wutever

CircusGalop wrote:

How about introducing user rating system on pending or graveyard maps?

Loved points : The number of raters * (Average of User Rating - 8) * ( 1 + StarPriority*0.05)
Required points for Loved : 350 + 10 * The number of difficulties

WIP maps should be excepted. User rating should be reset when a pending or graveyard map changes to WIP map.


Result
Both many raters and high ratings will be required.
A map under 8 User Rating won't be loved map.
Graveyard maps can also be loved maps.
the advantage of star priority is kept.
i think its absurd how were talking about a category centered around literally unranked popularity ( lets be honest thats what loved means. high critical acclaim.....but mostly popularity thats unranked ) and no one before this guy mentioned user rating where you LITERALLY RATE THE MAP as having any relevance towards anything. this thread is just people projecting their opinions of either i want the kudoso power or how no one should have the kudoso power. i think a combination of favorites and user rating with a small amount of influence. ( key word SMALL ) being given towards the kudoso thing is probably a alright system. i mean factoring in user rating to some degree doesnt seem like a bad idea, though we'd never see something like ikenai borderline get loved again it might also stifle out the completely generic shit or all the jump spam that half the community actually active in this game hates.

the way i see it theres no way in hell were gonna get a "loved" system that pleases everyone. but is it even supposed to? i thought it was for unranked maps that have enough reception and popularity around them to warrant a leader board. its not the systems fault in that case if most of the community just has shitty taste

also +1 to loved maps being maps that are at least 6months-1 year old.
Last edited by Wutever , edited 1 time in total.
PotatoJet
217 posts
Joined December 2016
PotatoJet
How about switch it up? 100 favs and 30 sp? Instead of 100 sp and 30 favs.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan

PotatoJet wrote:

How about switch it up? 100 favs and 30 sp? Instead of 100 sp and 30 favs.
I actually suggested both options since 100favs+30sp is primaly for the actual famous maps that are truly loved, while 100sp+30favs are for the mapper who urgently want their map to have a leaderboard. *shrugs*
tatatat
922 posts
Joined March 2015
tatatat
Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
Ochasan
522 posts
Joined February 2015
Ochasan
hmm... still looking for a way out of this all
i'm here to summarize what I've read (some posts I forget omg: o)
forgive me for my rough language in English :(

  1. Loved Beatmap is a beatmap beloved by people, chosen for its own reasons (forgot) by everyone.
  2. Loved Beatmap is treated as a side-ranking category, when for various reasons perfectly rankable maps go for loved instead.
  3. Loved Beatmap shouldn't just be an alternative Ranked status. Loved isn't supposed to be a mapping goal, it should just be a place for (unrankable) maps loved by the community to get a scoreboard. That is more like the mapper being narcissistic towards their own map.
  4. Loved Beatmap (still edit and find some argument to solve)
faygo
283 posts
Joined November 2014
faygo

tatatat wrote:

Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
while i do not agree that "making all the effort a waste" is a valid argument to keep this current loved system, I think to tackle your problem a solution is that only mapsets which are uploaded after the new loved system took place will need to adhere to the loved requirements. this is similar to how updating the ranking criteria works if im correct
___________________________
my opinion:

+ i think 100fav 30SP would be better cuz at last the osu player community is the dominant one, meaning having SR > fav doesn really reflect the fact that a map is widely loved (+ the fact that 90% players are not mappers nor modders, and therefore probably dont have kudosu to shoot at any maps)

and i think there should be a limit for the amount of stars one can shoot (sorry if its already mentioned i only skimmed over the 10 pages very briefly, like 5 stars per person, this is simply to prevent abuse of this 100fav 30sp requirement
tusoniccc
1 post
Joined June 2016
tusoniccc
Thanks you Osu! for update <3
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

tatatat wrote:

Of course my opinion on this is highly biased, but I think the requirements were fine how they were. Quite a few people including me have already accumulated 100SP on their maps and met the criteria. To reduce the kudosu requirement is to make all that effort a waste. Loved should be an alternative to the ranking criteria, or it should be split into another category. One for maps truly loved by the community, and another category for those who put the time and effort into getting the kudosu and favorites.
There is an alternative to ranked already; it's called ranked.

If there are no differences between a map in loved and a map in ranked (except for the potentially lower quality due to foregoing the modding process), then there is no reason to have a loved category in the first place, as those maps could just be ranked instead.

If a map can reasonably be changed to fit the ranking criteria, such as mapping additional difficulties, increase the quality of the map etc. it is fit to be ranked, and should not be considered to be loved.

Only maps that for some reason can't be ranked (such as the creator having left the community, or the map is designed around some unrankable concept), where changing it would break the map, should be considered for Loved, and only if said maps are indeed, community loved (how this is indicated can probably be discussed more, I just dislike the notion that "loved is an alternative to ranked". It's not, according to the description, and it shouldn't be.)
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
Okay, just to tidy this up so as not to mislead people with things - this hasn't been discussed too much internally lately since moddingv2 has not progressed as far.

I believe we're slated to talk about Loved in the upcoming Coffee Hour, so hopefully I can provide some perspective and rationale on the issue in that. It is my hope that we'll sort something out to get Loved back into active duty relatively soon, though. Probably the biggest thing to iron out is the mix of expectations between what Loved should encompass or not.
Wutever
38 posts
Joined February 2017
Wutever
well heres hoping activity resumes. my interpretation of loved as always been the name itself. maps that are unranked for whatever reason that the community loves.

thats exactly what it should be and if the maps are shitty then again i reiterate what i said earlier. its not the systems fault if the community has shitty taste.
The_CJ
141 posts
Joined December 2014
The_CJ
Is there now a way to submit maps for Loved that i can't find or is it still in discussion what is needed to get loved?
-Aerith-
843 posts
Joined March 2015
-Aerith-
100 kds is to much lol . Maybe lowering it to 50 should be enough . And for fav is 100

Right . Simple as that XD
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum
no it's not as simple as that.
Envory
Envory
i though playing loved map will earn bigger PP cause loved ap are for ET player /something like that
or maybe the BN cant play them XD.
Too much star priority for being loved..
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
To keep people up to date on this, a new voting round based on top-player/prominent player picks has gone out, in line with what was discussed during Coffee Hour.

I'm not yet sure if this is something that will be repeated. Hopefully it will, but I'm fairly set on not being the person behind compiling those lists again after the debacle of the first four votes, and I'd much rather delegate it to engaged players/modders/mappers who have a much wider scope for this sort of stuff than I do.

I can see some form of community voting continue for the near future, though.

That being said, is this the best compromise to have for Loved? A monthly intake purely decided from community vote?
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
I think everyone would prefer something more frequently, once a month is really painfully slow.
Arzenvald
4,056 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
why only osu!taiko that has 3 compiler? it seems to be better approach to collect maps for vote than other modes imo

Backfire wrote:

I think everyone would prefer something more frequently, once a month is really painfully slow.
and yeah, weekly or biweekly votes sounds cool imo
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Bi-Weekly was my idea too, the only problem is people/staff will argue we will run out of maps too quickly or something. Maybe every 3 weeks is more realistic instead, but really I think the threshold thing isn't really necessary either. I think top 5 or something thins out the proper maps better, I think letting stuff over 6% ends up making it so that us voting for it is totally redundant. Put some kind of pressure on the community imo, that's what makes it interesting.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Topic Starter
Ephemeral
The issue with doing this more frequently is having people willing to compile the sets that quickly, mostly.
Backfire
3,204 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire

Ephemeral wrote:

The issue with doing this more frequently is having people willing to compile the sets that quickly, mostly.
Well I've been around the Taiko community for 7 or so years or so, I can tell you that I am willing to do that for Taiko, at least. It's not honestly been my dream to do something like this for our community, to take part in it, so I'd be willing and open to do it and I could do it by myself or with others.

I think, at the very least, you wouldn't have to struggle with that option for our community, I think a lot of us are qualified. I've done like 5 or 6 taiko tournament map pools, so I have a fairly vast knowledge of maps, and of course lots of opinions on ones that should be loved. If not me, people like Nwolf would probably enjoy doing it as well, so there is no shortage of people here.
Arzenvald
4,056 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
in that case, not sure which is faster, whether one-person captain or a group of compiler (a-la ranking chart CAT)? i think either one can be faster
uhh..
h3oCharles
1,502 posts
Joined July 2016
h3oCharles
I'd like to propose the following conditions:
- at least 300 favorites
- any diff from the mapset must not autofail (2b, ya know)
- any diff from the mapset must not exceed 12 stars
If you sort all of the unranked maps by favorites, it is clearly visible what maps the community loves
oh, and no Centipede (like what, 48 stars or sth?) and Tewi-ma Park (2B Autofail) for the memers, sorry!
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

h3oCharles wrote:

- any diff from the mapset must not exceed 12 stars
careful with this one. SR is not known to be most accurate. This would destroy any chance of difficult higher keymode mania being loved
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
Why are we talking about imposing regulations on the loved section? The entire point is that it isn't subject to normal mapping regulations.
iSInHugs
1 post
Joined December 2017
iSInHugs
cool
- Milhofo -
683 posts
Joined February 2014
- Milhofo -
Why not let people submit their maps anyway, but have the community vote on the submitted maps for a regular time. Obviously people were abusing the star priority factor, but that would be out of the way if no one voted for those maps, and instead voted for the maps that the majority of the community likes.

Voting was always the best option, but I also think the maps up for voting shouldn't be handpicked by a couple of players. Make it like the "Best maps of X year" votings but change the list to users who submitted their maps for loved.

I have a map with over 300 favs in the graveyard and keep getting messages about its state, and I wonder if I'll ever get a chance to even try. Some old maps deserve that chance.
Caput Mortuum
1,854 posts
Joined March 2016
Caput Mortuum

- Milhofo - wrote:

Why not let people submit their maps anyway, but have the community vote on the submitted maps for a regular time. Obviously people were abusing the star priority factor, but that would be out of the way if no one voted for those maps, and instead voted for the maps that the majority of the community likes.

Voting was always the best option, but I also think the maps up for voting shouldn't be handpicked by a couple of players. Make it like the "Best maps of X year" votings but change the list to users who submitted their maps for loved.

I have a map with over 300 favs in the graveyard and keep getting messages about its state, and I wonder if I'll ever get a chance to even try. Some old maps deserve that chance.
im sure people don't even bother looking at the map if they don't know it so the probability of it being rejected is small
-Nephrum-
9 posts
Joined January 2018
-Nephrum-
z
Last edited by -Nephrum- , edited 1 time in total.
StaroaX
209 posts
Joined February 2015
StaroaX
Just wanted to remind you that if we are still gonna try to use sp for anything i think it's better to have the "shoot a kudosu star" button in the moddingV2 page or idk lul

-didn't realize this page is dead but i'll keep this
Last edited by StaroaX , edited 3 times in total.
phyr
149 posts
Joined September 2018
phyr
Is loved completely dead now?
fartownik
2,189 posts
Joined December 2008
fartownik

_qqpp_ wrote:

Is loved completely dead now?

what
omarha
4 posts
Joined August 2018
omarha
so is there a new thread for this issue or has it just been abandoned altogether?
Death
Technical Support Team
20,477 posts
Joined September 2013
Death
There is an entire Project Loved Subforum and it has its own dedicated channel in the development Discord server where pretty much everything mentioned in this thread has been addressed over the past 2 years since this was posted.
Last edited by Death , edited 1 time in total.
UltraKawaiiRita
1 post
Joined March 2017
UltraKawaiiRita
here, have some material that i would like to get loved:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1002419#osu/2109225

this has a set of 3 regular modes, 1 taiko mode, and 1 ctb (catch the beat) mode.
Wesular
42 posts
Joined November 2015
Wesular
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/1052936#osu/2200415
CursorDance
260 posts
Joined October 2015
CursorDance
beatmapsets/1265715#osu/2630391
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