Visual mods won't have a multiplier, relax.LinkTaylord wrote:
How disgusting! ._.
You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.
Visual mods won't have a multiplier, relax.LinkTaylord wrote:
How disgusting! ._.
You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.
I think it's very fun and good modedenisol wrote:
And people wonder why Osu!Mania is considered a joke ...
There aren't many ways you can fuck up a VSRG at the base, but you can definitely screw up its contents.Khelly wrote:
I think it's very fun and good mode
That's just mindless thinking. Lampranthus isn't just talking about core gameplay, you have to take maps, score system, community, and other stuff into consideration.Khelly wrote:
I still don't understand your point because all it boiled down to was being underdeveloped without actually explaining in what way it is - I don't see how the core gameplay of a mode like this (Notes come down; hit note) can be less developed.
Most of osu!mania "unranked songs" are most just song converted from other VSRG or some really low quality maps. "Endgame" wise, if you look at mania maps that were originally made on osu, than other VSRG would be better for people looking to improve.Khelly wrote:
In addition to that, do unranked maps not count when you're trying to say someone is "getting to the endgame" or are there some weird ass "would be 8 star in 4k" maps I haven't seen yet?
thank you so muchKhelly wrote:
I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me
This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.Khelly wrote:
Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.
[/spoiler]
Khelly wrote:
Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.
When people ask for certain feature from other VSRG for osu!mania, it's mainly because it's useful and could help osu!mania improve. Look at fixed scroll speed, that was based off of cmod in Stepmania. But there are people who compare just to bash on osu!mania. I do agree with you that I dislike it when people bash osu!mania as a whole just because it's not 100% like another VSRGYetified wrote:
This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.
=> Well good for you, play stepmania than instead of bashing on o!m. If you only like things that are implemented in that game, and thing o!m is trash becasue it does stuff differently, then you're just being cocky and pretending that you're some 'masterrace' mania player.
Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.OppaiDefender wrote:
...
Yeah, I'm aware it's sliding into the SR domain a bit, but I believe it can still apply to scoring directly. I'm not sure how SR is calculated currently and grabbing the difficulty at a timing point t might not be accomodated for.abraker wrote:
Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.
Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?abraker wrote:
Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.
I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.robby250 wrote:
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.
I remember in February 2015 when Rrtyui S'd image material about a third of the way through the map everyone just focused on him and the other team members and opponents were irrelevant.Endaris wrote:
@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.
Sure, standard has the aiming aspect to it, you can't just mash through the hard parts and get lucky. You can sometimes emphasize on not dropping combo at the expense of losing a bit of accuracy, but it's nowhere near the same thing as mashing in mania. Even then you could argue that it's way too combo based, in no dimension should an 80% score be capable of being rated higher than a 99% score.Khelly wrote:
I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.
It's more exciting in the sense that it adds an RNG aspect to the game, and it's not the same winners every single time. But that randomness is also what makes it bad.Endaris wrote:
@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.
Oh so much this. smoogipoo want to add a bit of dice into the game by potentially magnifying any mistake the player makes. The maps they choose are pretty uniform in difficulty generally speaking, so it it shouldnt be surprising if the match was decided from the beginning. If you want more interesting matches, pick more interesting maps. Maps which are long and have difficulty spikes layed throughout like land mines should make it interesting.robby250 wrote:
Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.
robby250 wrote:
Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?abraker wrote:
Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.
Combo based = encourages spamming restart on the first miss instead of playing songs through, adds a lot of needless frustration, anguish and stress in a game that is supposed to be fun.
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.
Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.
Sure, I'll admit that a combo based scoring system makes tournament games more exciting to watch, but the trade-off which is making the game much more frustrating to play for the average user isn't worth it.
Sorry if this comes off as a rant, I'm just trying to give my opinion as constructively as I can. I'm not against anything in score v2 except making it more combo based.
Ever since stepmania introduced scripting as a part of skinning, theming, the diversity of stepmania themes skyrocketed.gintoki147 wrote:
thank you so muchKhelly wrote:
I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao
cringeKhelly wrote:
I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in
If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song. That's a big problem, consider this scenario:Kivicat wrote:
That means, if you miss in the middle of map and then get 300 combo, you'll lose ~18% of score for those 300 notes. If map has 1500 notes, that will be 18% of 1/5 of 200k, lol (that's about 7k).
See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.Drojoke wrote:
If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song.
The problem is still present in some extent.Kivicat wrote:
See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.Drojoke wrote:
If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song.
By multiplying the hit value with the logarithm of your combo (up to combo limit), you're only making the problems Full Tablet and I suggested smaller. Differences in scores that really should've been the same are now smaller, but they're still there.Kivicat wrote:
See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.
Accuracy and score both underestimate the importance of misses and bad judgements, and they always will as long as misses give 0 score and 0% accuracy. Combo bases systems try to make misses matter more by (usually) reducing the score given by subsequent notes, but this creates all sorts of edge cases where such a scoring system produces very odd score differences.Full Tablet wrote:
The current accuracy percentage formula (and any scaling defined by a monotonic function of it) underestimates the importance of misses and bad judgments compared to better judgments.
This post made my dayNoSaucierMagic wrote:
lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again
Beautiful.NoSaucierMagic wrote:
lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again
hiNinjaSM wrote:
Beautiful.NoSaucierMagic wrote:
lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again
Please do.smoogipooo wrote:
- Make DT adjust to 100%/110%/.../150% with score bonus increments of 0.05x (or something like that).
This would be amazing. I play a lot of 0.8x-0.9x in stepmania because I usually suck at 180-200 bpm jumpstreams and 150-180 bpm jumpstream maps are harder to find. I definitely miss being able to practice harder songs without going full snail mode with HT @0.75x speed.Khelly wrote:
Can you apply that to HT of 0.8 and 0.9?
Considering that the actual combo number didn't affect score at all in the V1 scoring, LNs are worth more than they used to be, since they have two judgements now.masdafugh wrote:
Are you think LN (lonte noooooooodel) is easy?
And you give 1 combo for 1 ln?
Ok try ENTODZER map like dis
1, https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130464
Dis
2. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/146623
And dia
3. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/138430
I waiting you result score and kombos.
And say ln is easy like nornal notes.
But he really wants to shoehorn it in, people explaining why its bad just isn't enough.Redon wrote:
Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Increase osu!mania FL ScoreV2 mod multiplier to 1.10x.Please stop. I thought ten pages of people explaining why this is a bad idea was enough? Just get rid of it, it's nothing but a visual aid.
Increase osu!mania HR ScoreV2 mod multiplier to 1.20x.This seems like a really significant change, coming from a multiplier of 1.06x.
We want to value the more accurate players (accuracy) whilst applying a small reward for consistency (combo).Consistency is the ability to hit good judgments continuously, and therefore hitting bad judgments does not show this skill and should not be awarded extra points due to consistency. Other more established rhythm games such as O2Jam also break your combo at a BAD (roughly equivalent to Osu!mania's 50). This implies that breaking combo at 50 is a tried and tested move and is a more sensible scoring system.
I strongly disagree. Making the combo cap dependent on the max combo is problematic, as it couples the difficulty of getting a high score to the length of a map.Cuber wrote:
I think that instead of having the combo cap linearly related to the max combo, there should be a square root relationship.
Neither do I. Holding combo shouldn't be awarded, especially in osu!mania where key mashing goes unpunished. Hitting accurately should be rewarded, hitting poorly should be punished and hitting that which does not exist should be punished if not severely discouraged. All of these things can be achieved without involving combo.Cuber wrote:
but then again id rather combo not matter at all so lol.
I hope you're extending edge cases of players who ghost tap in between notes to keep a solid rhythm (and not necessarily are mashing to hold combo).Cuber wrote:
but then again id rather combo not matter at all so lol.
Neither do I. Holding combo shouldn't be awarded, especially in osu!mania where key mashing goes unpunished. Hitting accurately should be rewarded, hitting poorly should be punished and hitting that which does not exist should be punished if not severely discouraged. All of these things can be achieved without involving combo.
There's no point in punishing for hitting keys when there's nothing to play within 'x' ms, where 'x' is the time in ms when a miss is usually triggered (or something similar). Pressing 5 keys on a 3 note chord is a whole different story, of course.Halogen- wrote:
I hope you're extending edge cases of players who ghost tap in between notes to keep a solid rhythm (and not necessarily are mashing to hold combo).
You're getting closer. You'd want to consider x in a time per lane as well. I see no issue hitting 5 keys on a 3 note chord if that chord is alone and by itself. Likewise, if a song has a high tempo but slow repeated notes, players might feel inclined to fill in a rhythm on the other hand to keep steady (I do this all the time).Drojoke wrote:
There's no point in punishing for hitting keys when there's nothing to play within 'x' ms, where 'x' is the time in ms when a miss is usually triggered (or something similar). Pressing 5 keys on a 3 note chord is a whole different story, of course.Halogen- wrote:
I hope you're extending edge cases of players who ghost tap in between notes to keep a solid rhythm (and not necessarily are mashing to hold combo).
That is only half of the story, HR also makes timing windows tighter than OD10's by a decent about:O2MasterFX wrote:
Just to clarify things...
With hard rock enabled, any diff with OD8 and HP8 will be adjusted to OD10 and HP10, which is easily done, despite with a huge accuracy drop from players. The HR gives score boost that isn't quiet necessary. Reduce the score multiplier to 1.05 would be just fine.
EZ/HR multiplies/divides the timing windows by exactly 1.4. The UI has a weird method of rounding everything to 0.5ms, but even when assuming the numbers shown by the UI are correct you're left with an insignificant margin of error.-Kamikaze- wrote:
... HR also makes timing windows tighter than OD10's by a decent about: ...
Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Fix osu!mania ScoreV2 LNs not correctly capping to 50 score when the hold starts after the LN start was fully missed.Why not remove the ability to repress missed LN's? I've always thought it was weird that completely missing a LN gets punished, but missing it and, repressing it waaaaay too late and not releasing until seconds after the LN has ended somehow gives you points and pepe points.
Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Reduce osu!mania ScoreV2 FL multiplier to 1.06x (prev. 1.10x).I still stand for FL giving 1.0x points, for reasons many people have pointed out already.
This is correct - 320s are very much underweighted because the only component of the scoring system that takes into account 320 accuracy is the combo component, which only has a 20% prominence. Add on to the fact that the difference between a 300 and 320 is so small and that the absolute difference between juan and Hudo's 320 count isn't that significant, it would make sense that 320s are really underweighted at the moment.Ciel wrote:
Right now, percentage is the only number that factors into the Accuracy calculation,, so there's no differentiation between 300g/300. Therefore, there is only a very tiny portion of the score actually affected by the difference (mainly the combo).
Also as a minor side note: Maybe consider starting the combo counter at max combo? (if possible). That way, it doesn't diminish the weighting of the first 400 notes of the map.Also supporting this.
Yes I am sure, look at freemod picks, everyone had multipliers on mods. Also on score v1 100 maxes more would edge out 1x200 less by about 3,5k on Ambitious.smoogipooo wrote:
That sounds impossible. Are you sure everyone was actually using Stable (latest) / Beta / CE?
HR was being added twice to the hit windows. I've pushed a fix (only on CE for now) that rectifies this and modifies all other timing windows sliiiiiightly so they align with MAXs a bit better by interpolating from OD0-OD5 and OD5-OD10 instead of linear scaling from OD0-10._underjoy wrote:
I would like to look at the v2 when it comes to harder LN maps with HR. As a pretty decent LN player I tried some things out and I was astonished with the results. On the screenshot below you can see that I had a pretty good acc and nice score. However I FAILED IN THE MIDDLE because LN releases on hr are so incredibly tight that you get a miss on what would have been 200 (or even 300) on v1 nomod. This is so hilarious when you hokd a good acc then the denser sections come and you fail so easily because of high HP on HR. All but 1-2 of the misses were because of stupid release windows. Despite my efforts to release as precisely as I can, I still died. The release windows on HR should be more lenient, especially when it comes to window for miss. I practically have not received other release judgments than MAX, 300, 200 or miss.
My suggestion: either increase the miss window for releases (with making the 100/50 windows wider as well), or change all of the misses to 50s which will prevent failing the map so easily.
With the current system not using HR after you reach some level of accuracy is a bad idea (unless the map has some part that would make you fail with HR, even with good overall accuracy). Additionally, the FL multiplier is more significant the closer the play is to a perfect play.Todestrieb wrote:
I don't know what to say.
Yeah, maxes should be weighted a lot more imolim38 wrote:
lmao.
I initially wanted to increase the rainbow judgement weightage without embedding rainbows into accuracy, but no matter how much I changed it, the difference is very minor (~600-1,200 points) and a 200 will almost always be too powerful compared to a rainbow 300. So I scrapped that idea and thought that embedding rainbows into accuracy with a reasonable weightage and maybe making the curve more lenient would be the best idea.Shoegazer wrote:
320s are very much underweighted because the only component of the scoring system that takes into account 320 accuracy is the combo component, which only has a 20% prominence. Add on to the fact that the difference between a 300 and 320 is so small and that the absolute difference between juan and Hudo's 320 count isn't that significant, it would make sense that 320s are really underweighted at the moment.
You could mitigate this by including 300gs into accuracy, but from what I've experimented it might create too much emphasis on MAX accuracy with charts that players have issues getting 96%+ on (and as a result would not be an accurate assessment of skill).Alternatively, you can avoid including MAXes in the accuracy component and just increase the importance of MAXes to like 360 to increase the emphasis of it by a noticeable but not overpowering amount in the combo component, but that requires a bit more experimentation.
A 66.67% score nets you about 306K (181K for accuracy, 125K for combo). Adding FL increases it to 324K, you might've miscalculated. In any case, I do agree with the fact that bad judgements (non-200/300 judgements) should be penalised more, but I don't think it's necessarily what they have in mind at the moment, since the values are carved in stone. MAX judgements are not.Drojoke wrote:
To give a slightly over the top example: scoring a 200 on every note in a song is going to give you an accuracy of 66.67% and a score of about ~335k. The score is really low because you barely get any bonus score. The same play would net you a somewhat respectable 733.3k in the current proposal. Add FL to this, and you get a score of 777.3k. In practice, it's going to be less extreme than this, but it's definitely present.
Gameplay: [smoogipooo] Make osu!mania ScoreV2 early miss window unchanged by HR.Such a small detail, but very effective in punishing spamming. I'm digging this!
Thank you. The main issue was that it was only available for supporterssmoogipooo wrote:
The fix will propagate all the way to Stable (latest) by Friday in time for MWC. Please use Cutting Edge until then.
Edit: It's been propagated back to Beta now.