Errrm. . . . . . , well its up to all of you. Well Goodluck.

Remyria wrote:

I suggest that the combo cap could be scaled on song at something like 5-6% of max combo as the cap

I agree with it being percentage based instead of 400, and I agree with the 5-6% max combo values, but smoogipooo and other combo lovers would probably want a bigger percentage. So I suggest 10% of max combo as a compromise (please note that combo bonus still scales up after the cap but much slower).

Other suggestions, taken from reddit, are:

- Separating 300g and 300, regular 300s should give 95% accuracy. And yeah 300g should probably scale with OD too in that case. Alternatively, make 300g only visual, no effect on the actual game, and tighten up the judgements by a lot.

- Color based timing option like in stepmania

- Adding some kind of anti-mashing system that penalizes HP. I'm fine with the current one, but some find it too lenient and the range for missing/losing HP from hitting too early should be extended. Maybe offset HP up by 1 point too (new HP5 = old HP6, except in the upper values where there should be diminishing returns such as new HP9 = old HP9.2 or so because they're penalizing enough).

- Speed rates. These are mentioned in the OP but I want to enforce that it's a good thing that should be done.

There are other changes I've mentioned on reddit but they're beyond the scope of this thread. I still suggest you try to make them happen if you truly want osu!mania to thrive.

I'm fine with all the score v2 changes tbh, except the combo which should be percentage based as mentioned above.

Tidek wrote:

Yeah, and player with 10misses on 1000notes map can still get 990k points, no, thanks

There's always the option of making misses/50s/100s reduce accuracy. Using Stepmania's scoring system (which punishes for misses by reducing score) scaled up to a maximum of 1,000,000 points, you would get a score of 960k when missing 10 notes and hitting 990 r300's.

smoogipooo, this entire idea is a mess. You are creating a Frankenstein's monster by mashing together accuracy and combo components. I don't know whether you have modeled the possible edge cases or not, but most players are going to be sure this is a bad idea until the edge cases are addressed and solutions are proposed. Until then, this has too many flaws to take seriously.

Here are two cases which I know are an issue:

1. Suppose there exists a high spike in difficulty in the beginning of the map and the player has a miss there and only there. The player misses in the beginning, and as a result, got one short of an FC. Suppose there is the same spike in difficulty in the middle of the map and has a miss there and only there. The player misses in the middle, and as a result, has half of an FC. The first case would have a higher score than the second case, yet the difficulty spike is the same. Justify this matter.
   
2. Players like Bobbias have become accustomed to a visual mod in such that they play worse without it. The player can easily become accustomed to a visual mod like that if they have the will to. How would it make sense for there to be a difficulty multiplier for visual mods then?

smoogipooo wrote:

As maps progress anxiety builds up and you become tired, both of those are indications of how good of a player you are, or otherwise, how consistent of a player you are.

You are forcing more anxiety with the combo based system, actually. Frustration as well. Currently the source of those emotions in mania is primarily when trying to PF a map with nothing but MAX or at least SS for less skillful players, but with this, you are going to extend that further. Having your score screwed for the rest of the play because of these mishaps on a non skillful level doesn't sound like a good gameplay mechanic. Also, a map can be as long as you want to be, but unless a player is being skillfully challenged, the player will get tired only from boredom. The way you made it sound is that you were referring to physical tiredness, which is not always the case.

smoogipooo wrote:

Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.

Gladly! I have my own proposal for a scoring system which should be better than accuracy based scoring and combo based scoring. The concept of this scoring system is influenced by the difficulty of the parts the player is playing.

Let me tell you the main flaws in combo and accuracy first.

1. Combo: Notes following a poor hit after a point have permanent diminished potential worth. Therefore, the position of the hard part matters to set the worth of every following note following.
2. Accuracy: Doesn't care about disproportionate difficulty. Map can be mostly easy with one hard part and the player still gets high accuracy.

If you combine those together, what you get is a mechanic in which notes following after a poor hit at a point have permanent diminished potential worth while the player is still able to amount a high score if the easy part is sufficiently long enough. That's why I called it a Frankenstein's monster. You are trying to put life back into something while still creating something sill imperfect and ugly. It doesn't solve the problem, rather it compounds it.

A score might be a pretty number to some players, but to me it is a measure of skill. This number has to reflect how well you are doing against what you are given. As such, this number should be under the influence of two primary things: difficulty and result. When you multiply by the difficulty of that part, easy parts are worth little and hard parts are worth more, and should address the problem accuracy based scoring has. If the player misses on the hard part, tough luck, try harder, and if the player spams the hard part, the missesPunisher will do its job to not reward the player for random hits.

Here is the formula:

Score += (diffScore[t] * accScore[t] * log(t)) / missesPunisher

diffScore take the difficulty of the map at point t

AccScore take the player's score point (50, 100, 200, 300, MAX) at point t

log(t) increases as the map progresses. This has a similar effect like combo, but not quite. It's there to give a bonus for longer maps and how much depends on however you wish to scale it. I think this shouldn't give a noticeable effect unless the map is more than 5 minutes long.

missesPunisher is the number of misses and possibly bad score values in the last X milliseconds. If you want, you can do interesting things with this value such as an exponential increase with every miss or increase X for every miss so that it looks at a broader time period. However, the most important thing is that it doesn't destroy the worth of every proceeding pattern indefinitely if there is a miss. If there are misses, this would result at a temporary reduction in worth unlike your system where the potential worth is permanently reduced.

Reply to abraker:

diffScore take the difficulty of the map at point t

this is not a post about star rating. Any score system that takes into account the difficulty at time / point t should be deferred until a better, non-jumpstream-inflated, workable improvement or revamp to the SR system is made.

AccScore take the player's score point (50, 100, 200, 300, MAX) at point t

scalar sum of score values? I would rather not take a vector.

log(t) will a pause in a map affect this? You can't just take a single formula for everything. Divide map into discrete parts (by combo, timestamp, whatever) because a beatmap is not a continuous function. Smoothing will help but how do you smoothen this discrete chunk of data of user replays / beatmap hitobjects?

Also, the objects at the end of a map is exaggerated in their importance compared to the first few notes. What if beatmaps has hit objects at point t=0?

missesPunisher: v1 thanks.
dynamic last X milliseconds: seems interesting, please propose a working formula.

FrenzyLi wrote:

diffScore take the difficulty of the map at point t

this is not a post about star rating. Any score system that takes into account the difficulty at time / point t should be deferred until a better, non-jumpstream-inflated, workable improvement or revamp to the SR system is made.

I agree. This will work only if star rating is fixed, though it I think it could be better than scoreV1 even now. Also due to the nature of this thread I tried my best to avoid mentioning star rating. When I say difficulty, substitute that for what you percieve the difficulty as instead of star rating.

FrenzyLi wrote:

AccScore take the player's score point (50, 100, 200, 300, MAX) at point t

scalar sum of score values? I would rather not take a vector.

Whatever works. The formula I put up is psuedocode and not in proper mathematical notation.

FrenzyLi wrote:

log(t) will a pause in a map affect this? You can't just take a single formula for everything. Divide map into discrete parts (by combo, timestamp, whatever) because a beatmap is not a continuous function. Smoothing will help but how do you smoothen this discrete chunk of data of user replays / beatmap hitobjects?

See above

FrenzyLi wrote:

Also, the objects at the end of a map is exaggerated in their importance compared to the first few notes. What if beatmaps has hit objects at point t=0?

Not sure what you mean by the first sentence. To address your second point, this is the formula at the core without any constants. Ofc you would shift the function to the left to avoid the t=0 situation.

FrenzyLi wrote:

missesPunisher: v1 thanks.
dynamic last X milliseconds: seems interesting, please propose a working formula.

I will experiment with this bit and see what works best.

I think it is better to not make the scoring system difficulty-dependent.

Instead, make the star rating calculation output a function f(score) that maps a certain amount of score with the difficulty of achieving that score in the specific map. If a map is mostly made of easy notes, with one spike of difficulty at some point, then the difficulty rating of achieving scores that are possible by playing only the easy part correctly (without playing the hard part correctly) remain low, then the difficulty rises abruptly for scores that require playing the hard part correctly as well; if the beatmap is more even in it's difficulty, then the difficulty curve rises more evenly with score as well.

I don't agree with giving harder parts more weight compared to easy parts in the score system, the relative weight of each note is a matter more complex than that. If you are estimating the skill shown in play by looking at the judgments the player gets at each note (which is better than estimating skill by just looking at the score, but it is not feasible since it would be pretty expensive computationally, and the information required is not there for most plays), not always failing to play a note correctly in a hard part hurts the overall skill in the play more than failing a note in the easier part (it actually depends on how sensitive is the probability of playing the note correctly with certain skill level with changes of skill level, not with the absolute difficulty of the note).

There are certain EASY patterns a mid-level player has about 99% chance of playing correctly, while a high-level player has about 99.9%; also some MEDIUM pattern a mid-level player has around 80% chance of playing correctly, while the high-level player has about 95%. In this case, the harder pattern indeed has more weight when estimating skill by looking at the play. Also, there can be a HARD pattern a mid-level player has 30% chance of playing the pattern correctly, while a high-level player has about 40%; in this case, the MEDIUM difficulty patterns would have more weight than the HARD pattern when estimating the skill of the player in the play.

@abraker:

smoogi wrote:

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

Full Tablet wrote:

I think it is better to not make the scoring system difficulty-dependent.

Instead, make the star rating calculation output a function f(score) that maps a certain amount of score with the difficulty of achieving that score in the specific map.

Sounds like the same thing to me. The main difference is that your system works backwards from mine. You are putting the resultant score and getting out the corresponding difficulty of obtaining that score. I am putting in difficulty and result and getting out the score. Your system work of potential worth while my system works off immediate worth.

Endaris wrote:

@abraker:

smoogi wrote:

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

I had a feeling I missed something. 15 pages was a lot to catch up to.

How disgusting! ._.

You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.

LinkTaylord wrote:

How disgusting! ._.

You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.

Visual mods won't have a multiplier, relax.

.

And people wonder why Osu!Mania is considered a joke ...

denisol wrote:

And people wonder why Osu!Mania is considered a joke ...

I think it's very fun and good mode

try to consider more about mods multipliers.
Many players who come from o2jam or other 7k games maybe good at HD/FL even better than none,I think HD/FL/fl should keep 1x score.
others,DT in mania is a very hard mod,Obviously most players playing DT songs can't get same acc as songs which is none mod in same stars,even can't pass in DT.so DT should be 1.12x imo.

Reply to LinkTaylord and MDLC:
Quote smoogipooo:

Khelly wrote:

I think it's very fun and good mode

There aren't many ways you can fuck up a VSRG at the base, but you can definitely screw up its contents.

What you think is a "good mode" is just really a basic principle that VSRG follows which is a genre of games in itself. What you think of mania isn't a mode; it's a huge category of rhythm games in general. Because of this it can be compared and judged to other games. Based on the standards set by other games, it is a "joke", as in it's not really developed, because it is only a sub-mode here when there is so much competition for similar games that are fully fleshed-out.

However I don't agree with it being an easier game cause standards change base off the difficulty of the game so I feel like that argument is invalid if you don't actually compare it 1:1, even though there would probably be a mob of stepmania/lr2 players who would completely crucify me for saying this. (this goes for pretty much every VSRG)

On top of Osu!mania being a sub-mode that isn't really super relevant in the grand scheme of all things Osu!, it's also shooting itself in the foot by trying to be too innovative and change the format that other VSRG games has set; keep in mind these games are half of what the community in this game is, and what this games is now is based off of just that in terms of the later game, basically making the players who ARE in touch with the community (and players are also trying to reach the late-game) players influenced by certain styles set by other games. Changing this is inherently difficult without creating some sort of backlash unless you have set a style to follow through everything. Unfortunately, if a player wants to pursue that "endgame", they can't really turn to osu!mania itself because it's not really a game with difficult stuff in it; making it a forced link to those other games.

TL;DR

Basically, Osu!Mania is the undeveloped child of keyboard VSRG in general and it's almost too late to change it without displeasing a huge amount of people (rather the players who can put in the input to change the game) because of its community being made up of more developed VSRG games.

Truly, the community (I should say the content mostly, but half of it is regulated by the community) has an internal conflict that isn't going to really resolve itself unless something is ACTUALLY done with this game mode. This is probably why it "suffers" so much.

Edit: went to fix some oddities with how the post was worded but got lazy after a few so sorry if it some of it makes 0 sense in actual script.

I still don't understand your point because all it boiled down to was being underdeveloped without actually explaining in what way it is - I don't see how the core gameplay of a mode like this (Notes come down; hit note) can be less developed. In addition to that, do unranked maps not count when you're trying to say someone is "getting to the endgame" or are there some weird ass "would be 8 star in 4k" maps I haven't seen yet?

I don't think you understand what Lampranthus is trying to explain. He is saying there are many VSRG games out there that has been running way longer then osu!mania (e.g. o2jam, stepmania, flashflashrevolution, lr2 etc) and was developed through loads of trial and errors. These VSRG has already developed certain rules and systems that works really good for the game most people love. Osu!mania been out since Q4 of 2012 but didn't even have mania specific maps back then. Osu!mania does't even have a close to perfect pp system or star rating at all, this is why it's consider undeveloped. But now randomly Osu are trying to change the way most VSRG standards were laid out by changing the score system to focus on combo more and mods.

Khelly wrote:

I still don't understand your point because all it boiled down to was being underdeveloped without actually explaining in what way it is - I don't see how the core gameplay of a mode like this (Notes come down; hit note) can be less developed.

That's just mindless thinking. Lampranthus isn't just talking about core gameplay, you have to take maps, score system, community, and other stuff into consideration.

Khelly wrote:

In addition to that, do unranked maps not count when you're trying to say someone is "getting to the endgame" or are there some weird ass "would be 8 star in 4k" maps I haven't seen yet?

Most of osu!mania "unranked songs" are most just song converted from other VSRG or some really low quality maps. "Endgame" wise, if you look at mania maps that were originally made on osu, than other VSRG would be better for people looking to improve.

If you can have convert maps from any other game, then what difference does it make for you to play it there or here rather than preference for whatever client you'd actually like to use? (Score is not a difference here since it does not affect your gameplay but just your end result) I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me so as long as I'm fed with good unranked maps then I'd stay here. (And I "seem" to have hundreds of them still that are far above me)

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.

You could say I haven't played it too long, but I'd rather speak as someone with a lot of experience in standard who quit that for mania because it's so much more fun rather than someone who started in other vsrg's who came to osu mania, found it bad, and doesn't seem to like it. At least that's the impression I'm getting. If most of the problems you have are in relation to things like score and pp, then that's just the metagame and not as important as actually playing imo - map availibility and the actually vsrg. All these good yolomania maps come in unrankable collections qq

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

thank you so much
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao

i like o2jam very much though

Khelly wrote:

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.
[/spoiler]

This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.
=> Well good for you, play stepmania than instead of bashing on o!m. If you only like things that are implemented in that game, and thing o!m is trash becasue it does stuff differently, then you're just being cocky and pretending that you're some 'masterrace' mania player.

Anyways, my question is now: if the combo is going to be capped, with the intend of getting similair scores as the current system(correct me if i am wrong here), then what is the point in changing the system at all then? I mean the current score also uses some kind of accuracy combo which punishes incosistent players even on their 200s, but had a pretty low cap so each punishment isnt that big of a deal.

Scorev2 will punish not as often as before but, the punishment is way harder than scorev1 and will impact all players (especially with high acc scores on hard maps) with the result that people will have to grind maps to hold combos while getting consistenly a good accuracy.

I don't mind having a some sort of combo system but please make sure it wont make getting good scores grinding and kinda luck dependent ( getting good acc+combo), which will kill mania for lots of players.

I also love osu client since it does looks better than most other VSRG.

Khelly wrote:

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.

Yetified wrote:

This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.
=> Well good for you, play stepmania than instead of bashing on o!m. If you only like things that are implemented in that game, and thing o!m is trash becasue it does stuff differently, then you're just being cocky and pretending that you're some 'masterrace' mania player.

When people ask for certain feature from other VSRG for osu!mania, it's mainly because it's useful and could help osu!mania improve. Look at fixed scroll speed, that was based off of cmod in Stepmania. But there are people who compare just to bash on osu!mania. I do agree with you that I dislike it when people bash osu!mania as a whole just because it's not 100% like another VSRG

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

abraker, here's something I came up with that could plug in to your diffscore[t], with t in my case being an actual timing/score object.

An individual hit difficulty would be based on two components, timing and physical difficulty.

1. Timing Difficulty:
   TD is a pseudo-reading difficulty calculation that looks at the note that came directly before the current note. If your current note is part of a double/triple/etc. the other notes are ignored and calculated separately. The shorter the time between the two notes, the higher the TD.
   TD only cares about timing points so if there was a double/triple/etc. the TD is not doubled/tripled/etc.
   
2. Physical Difficulty:
   PD compares the current note to the previous note on the same column. PD increases as the time between the two notes decreases. PD's purpose is to make a distinction between grace notes and minijacks, for example.

PD and TD would be combined at an appropriate ratio to give a final difficulty score. The ratio can easily be tweaked of course to find the best combination.

You might think that the PD calculation could be replaced with just checking columns on TD and multiplying accordingly, but PD has a few more subtleties which makes it better as a separate component. The following three examples show how the two components can vary:


As for how PD and TD scale with the time differences, I expect there to be a timing cuttoff where the PD or TD component defaults to just the minimum value. I'm thinking maybe a linear scaling for TD (as this is just reading based), and some form of normal distribution curve for PD.

EDIT: to nerf minijacks maybe PD could use the hit300 timing window in some way to accomodate rushing. IDK though, just a thought.

OppaiDefender wrote:

...

Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.

abraker wrote:

Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.

Yeah, I'm aware it's sliding into the SR domain a bit, but I believe it can still apply to scoring directly. I'm not sure how SR is calculated currently and grabbing the difficulty at a timing point t might not be accomodated for.

abraker wrote:

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?
Combo based = encourages spamming restart on the first miss instead of playing songs through, adds a lot of needless frustration, anguish and stress in a game that is supposed to be fun.
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Sure, I'll admit that a combo based scoring system makes tournament games more exciting to watch, but the trade-off which is making the game much more frustrating to play for the average user isn't worth it.

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, I'm just trying to give my opinion as constructively as I can. I'm not against anything in score v2 except making it more combo based.

robby250 wrote:

The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.


2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

Endaris wrote:

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

I remember in February 2015 when Rrtyui S'd image material about a third of the way through the map everyone just focused on him and the other team members and opponents were irrelevant.

But I mean then again it was the first S of a famous then un-fc'd map.

He would've got that spotlight in any other mode too. I think in TWC 2015 tasuke was FCing that dragonforce tiebreaker and he got all the spotlight too. And in both cases it was a "pseudo"-tiebreaker that was played after the match had already been decided.~

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.

Sure, standard has the aiming aspect to it, you can't just mash through the hard parts and get lucky. You can sometimes emphasize on not dropping combo at the expense of losing a bit of accuracy, but it's nowhere near the same thing as mashing in mania. Even then you could argue that it's way too combo based, in no dimension should an 80% score be capable of being rated higher than a 99% score.

Endaris wrote:

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

It's more exciting in the sense that it adds an RNG aspect to the game, and it's not the same winners every single time. But that randomness is also what makes it bad.

robby250 wrote:

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Oh so much this. smoogipoo want to add a bit of dice into the game by potentially magnifying any mistake the player makes. The maps they choose are pretty uniform in difficulty generally speaking, so it it shouldnt be surprising if the match was decided from the beginning. If you want more interesting matches, pick more interesting maps. Maps which are long and have difficulty spikes layed throughout like land mines should make it interesting.

robby250 wrote:

abraker wrote:

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?
Combo based = encourages spamming restart on the first miss instead of playing songs through, adds a lot of needless frustration, anguish and stress in a game that is supposed to be fun.
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Sure, I'll admit that a combo based scoring system makes tournament games more exciting to watch, but the trade-off which is making the game much more frustrating to play for the average user isn't worth it.

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, I'm just trying to give my opinion as constructively as I can. I'm not against anything in score v2 except making it more combo based.

This guy.

I am having a lot of issue understanding this "RNG" concept that you guys are talking about. There's been plenty of instances of the game pulling RNG-like behavior on scores.

This one is beyond me. You'd need a PhD level dissertation to properly justify that one (hint: you can't).


Almost as bad, but still telling.


etc.


... it doesn't take long to see this. Anyone saying that the current score system is in any way or shape better than the proposed V2 without any actual data is out of their mind and is just spewing at this point.

@Halogen I'm not defending the current system. I'm simply against the combo component of score v2, which would enforce situations similar to the ones you've listed. For your examples, I'm guessing the distribution of misses/combo breaks is what made the difference in score.

Here's my proposed changes for score v2 specifically:

- Make regular 300s give 95% accuracy and make rainbow 300 scale with OD.
- Replace the fixed combo cap of 400 with 5%-10% of the max combo of the map, using the same algorithm as score v2.
- LN starts and ends should be separated like score v2 does, however LN ends shouldn't add combo (I don't mind if they do though) and they should be made more lenient instead of tighter (I don't really care either way, I just think that making them tighter would make even more people hate LNs and it would be harder to integrate LNs into a map without lowering OD).
- Increase HP drain and make a better anti-mashing system (discussing specifics is futile at this point)
- Add rates, give each mod/rate a multiplier that doesn't make it too difficult to beat your earlier score as long as you master the map relatively well.

The changes I've mentioned are very rough and could be interpreted for better or worse.

I always felt regular 300's should give 99% and rainbow's should give 100% because when it comes to multiple SS's or high acc scores you basically have to look at the score number or the actual # of rainbows and 300's each player got in order to compare instead of a quick % glance. Besides, rainbow's don't change from 16.5 ms no matter the OD.

gintoki147 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

thank you so much
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao

Ever since stepmania introduced scripting as a part of skinning, theming, the diversity of stepmania themes skyrocketed.

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.


2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in

cringe

Basically the point (indirectly but in relevancy to the topic at hand) of my post beforehand was that you can't really make a game based off of consistency and combo when your game mostly consists of charting styles based off of other scoring systems that don't include these systems.

Mini-LNs in stepmania are completely justified and are actually welcomed as a booster for your DP; the equivalent of raw score/%accuracy in O!M. In this game, it is the contrary; many conversions such as Brute Force have watered down the amount of mini-LNs used for what I assume is this reason (I don't want to put words into the "mouth" of the person who converted them).

I truly think that if Osu!Mania was a little more strict with creating their own original content while also mass producing it. You would also have to unrank stuff like haelequin's bullshit ending to fully justify these changes without making it a half-assed game like it currently is. (Unranked stuff doesn't really matter in scoring that much anyway aside from in tourneys which only affects the minority of players)

toolazytowriteanymore so

tl;dr Anything can work as a solid game as long as the work is put in to actually make it a fully-fleshed out thing. It may not appeal to all audiences of course; being a player who doesn't play for consistency I don't think it would much appeal for me, but it would definitely make for interesting content. Pretty much, if you're going to make a game that breaks the mold of current popular VSRG, you had better make the innovations elsewhere than in just the scoring system.








really lazy sry

*Also I should probably say that I understand that this is actually only going to be in MWC for now, just saying stuff