How disgusting! ._.

You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.

LinkTaylord wrote:

How disgusting! ._.

You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.

Visual mods won't have a multiplier, relax.

.

And people wonder why Osu!Mania is considered a joke ...

denisol wrote:

And people wonder why Osu!Mania is considered a joke ...

I think it's very fun and good mode

try to consider more about mods multipliers.
Many players who come from o2jam or other 7k games maybe good at HD/FL even better than none,I think HD/FL/fl should keep 1x score.
others,DT in mania is a very hard mod,Obviously most players playing DT songs can't get same acc as songs which is none mod in same stars,even can't pass in DT.so DT should be 1.12x imo.

Reply to LinkTaylord and MDLC:
Quote smoogipooo:

Khelly wrote:

I think it's very fun and good mode

There aren't many ways you can fuck up a VSRG at the base, but you can definitely screw up its contents.

What you think is a "good mode" is just really a basic principle that VSRG follows which is a genre of games in itself. What you think of mania isn't a mode; it's a huge category of rhythm games in general. Because of this it can be compared and judged to other games. Based on the standards set by other games, it is a "joke", as in it's not really developed, because it is only a sub-mode here when there is so much competition for similar games that are fully fleshed-out.

However I don't agree with it being an easier game cause standards change base off the difficulty of the game so I feel like that argument is invalid if you don't actually compare it 1:1, even though there would probably be a mob of stepmania/lr2 players who would completely crucify me for saying this. (this goes for pretty much every VSRG)

On top of Osu!mania being a sub-mode that isn't really super relevant in the grand scheme of all things Osu!, it's also shooting itself in the foot by trying to be too innovative and change the format that other VSRG games has set; keep in mind these games are half of what the community in this game is, and what this games is now is based off of just that in terms of the later game, basically making the players who ARE in touch with the community (and players are also trying to reach the late-game) players influenced by certain styles set by other games. Changing this is inherently difficult without creating some sort of backlash unless you have set a style to follow through everything. Unfortunately, if a player wants to pursue that "endgame", they can't really turn to osu!mania itself because it's not really a game with difficult stuff in it; making it a forced link to those other games.

TL;DR

Basically, Osu!Mania is the undeveloped child of keyboard VSRG in general and it's almost too late to change it without displeasing a huge amount of people (rather the players who can put in the input to change the game) because of its community being made up of more developed VSRG games.

Truly, the community (I should say the content mostly, but half of it is regulated by the community) has an internal conflict that isn't going to really resolve itself unless something is ACTUALLY done with this game mode. This is probably why it "suffers" so much.

Edit: went to fix some oddities with how the post was worded but got lazy after a few so sorry if it some of it makes 0 sense in actual script.

I still don't understand your point because all it boiled down to was being underdeveloped without actually explaining in what way it is - I don't see how the core gameplay of a mode like this (Notes come down; hit note) can be less developed. In addition to that, do unranked maps not count when you're trying to say someone is "getting to the endgame" or are there some weird ass "would be 8 star in 4k" maps I haven't seen yet?

I don't think you understand what Lampranthus is trying to explain. He is saying there are many VSRG games out there that has been running way longer then osu!mania (e.g. o2jam, stepmania, flashflashrevolution, lr2 etc) and was developed through loads of trial and errors. These VSRG has already developed certain rules and systems that works really good for the game most people love. Osu!mania been out since Q4 of 2012 but didn't even have mania specific maps back then. Osu!mania does't even have a close to perfect pp system or star rating at all, this is why it's consider undeveloped. But now randomly Osu are trying to change the way most VSRG standards were laid out by changing the score system to focus on combo more and mods.

Khelly wrote:

I still don't understand your point because all it boiled down to was being underdeveloped without actually explaining in what way it is - I don't see how the core gameplay of a mode like this (Notes come down; hit note) can be less developed.

That's just mindless thinking. Lampranthus isn't just talking about core gameplay, you have to take maps, score system, community, and other stuff into consideration.

Khelly wrote:

In addition to that, do unranked maps not count when you're trying to say someone is "getting to the endgame" or are there some weird ass "would be 8 star in 4k" maps I haven't seen yet?

Most of osu!mania "unranked songs" are most just song converted from other VSRG or some really low quality maps. "Endgame" wise, if you look at mania maps that were originally made on osu, than other VSRG would be better for people looking to improve.

If you can have convert maps from any other game, then what difference does it make for you to play it there or here rather than preference for whatever client you'd actually like to use? (Score is not a difference here since it does not affect your gameplay but just your end result) I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me so as long as I'm fed with good unranked maps then I'd stay here. (And I "seem" to have hundreds of them still that are far above me)

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.

You could say I haven't played it too long, but I'd rather speak as someone with a lot of experience in standard who quit that for mania because it's so much more fun rather than someone who started in other vsrg's who came to osu mania, found it bad, and doesn't seem to like it. At least that's the impression I'm getting. If most of the problems you have are in relation to things like score and pp, then that's just the metagame and not as important as actually playing imo - map availibility and the actually vsrg. All these good yolomania maps come in unrankable collections qq

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

thank you so much
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao

i like o2jam very much though

Khelly wrote:

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.
[/spoiler]

This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.
=> Well good for you, play stepmania than instead of bashing on o!m. If you only like things that are implemented in that game, and thing o!m is trash becasue it does stuff differently, then you're just being cocky and pretending that you're some 'masterrace' mania player.

Anyways, my question is now: if the combo is going to be capped, with the intend of getting similair scores as the current system(correct me if i am wrong here), then what is the point in changing the system at all then? I mean the current score also uses some kind of accuracy combo which punishes incosistent players even on their 200s, but had a pretty low cap so each punishment isnt that big of a deal.

Scorev2 will punish not as often as before but, the punishment is way harder than scorev1 and will impact all players (especially with high acc scores on hard maps) with the result that people will have to grind maps to hold combos while getting consistenly a good accuracy.

I don't mind having a some sort of combo system but please make sure it wont make getting good scores grinding and kinda luck dependent ( getting good acc+combo), which will kill mania for lots of players.

I also love osu client since it does looks better than most other VSRG.

Khelly wrote:

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.

Yetified wrote:

This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.
=> Well good for you, play stepmania than instead of bashing on o!m. If you only like things that are implemented in that game, and thing o!m is trash becasue it does stuff differently, then you're just being cocky and pretending that you're some 'masterrace' mania player.

When people ask for certain feature from other VSRG for osu!mania, it's mainly because it's useful and could help osu!mania improve. Look at fixed scroll speed, that was based off of cmod in Stepmania. But there are people who compare just to bash on osu!mania. I do agree with you that I dislike it when people bash osu!mania as a whole just because it's not 100% like another VSRG

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

abraker, here's something I came up with that could plug in to your diffscore[t], with t in my case being an actual timing/score object.

An individual hit difficulty would be based on two components, timing and physical difficulty.

1. Timing Difficulty:
   TD is a pseudo-reading difficulty calculation that looks at the note that came directly before the current note. If your current note is part of a double/triple/etc. the other notes are ignored and calculated separately. The shorter the time between the two notes, the higher the TD.
   TD only cares about timing points so if there was a double/triple/etc. the TD is not doubled/tripled/etc.
   
2. Physical Difficulty:
   PD compares the current note to the previous note on the same column. PD increases as the time between the two notes decreases. PD's purpose is to make a distinction between grace notes and minijacks, for example.

PD and TD would be combined at an appropriate ratio to give a final difficulty score. The ratio can easily be tweaked of course to find the best combination.

You might think that the PD calculation could be replaced with just checking columns on TD and multiplying accordingly, but PD has a few more subtleties which makes it better as a separate component. The following three examples show how the two components can vary:


As for how PD and TD scale with the time differences, I expect there to be a timing cuttoff where the PD or TD component defaults to just the minimum value. I'm thinking maybe a linear scaling for TD (as this is just reading based), and some form of normal distribution curve for PD.

EDIT: to nerf minijacks maybe PD could use the hit300 timing window in some way to accomodate rushing. IDK though, just a thought.

OppaiDefender wrote:

...

Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.

abraker wrote:

Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.

Yeah, I'm aware it's sliding into the SR domain a bit, but I believe it can still apply to scoring directly. I'm not sure how SR is calculated currently and grabbing the difficulty at a timing point t might not be accomodated for.

abraker wrote:

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?
Combo based = encourages spamming restart on the first miss instead of playing songs through, adds a lot of needless frustration, anguish and stress in a game that is supposed to be fun.
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Sure, I'll admit that a combo based scoring system makes tournament games more exciting to watch, but the trade-off which is making the game much more frustrating to play for the average user isn't worth it.

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, I'm just trying to give my opinion as constructively as I can. I'm not against anything in score v2 except making it more combo based.

robby250 wrote:

The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.


2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

Endaris wrote:

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

I remember in February 2015 when Rrtyui S'd image material about a third of the way through the map everyone just focused on him and the other team members and opponents were irrelevant.

But I mean then again it was the first S of a famous then un-fc'd map.

He would've got that spotlight in any other mode too. I think in TWC 2015 tasuke was FCing that dragonforce tiebreaker and he got all the spotlight too. And in both cases it was a "pseudo"-tiebreaker that was played after the match had already been decided.~

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.

Sure, standard has the aiming aspect to it, you can't just mash through the hard parts and get lucky. You can sometimes emphasize on not dropping combo at the expense of losing a bit of accuracy, but it's nowhere near the same thing as mashing in mania. Even then you could argue that it's way too combo based, in no dimension should an 80% score be capable of being rated higher than a 99% score.

Endaris wrote:

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

It's more exciting in the sense that it adds an RNG aspect to the game, and it's not the same winners every single time. But that randomness is also what makes it bad.

robby250 wrote:

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Oh so much this. smoogipoo want to add a bit of dice into the game by potentially magnifying any mistake the player makes. The maps they choose are pretty uniform in difficulty generally speaking, so it it shouldnt be surprising if the match was decided from the beginning. If you want more interesting matches, pick more interesting maps. Maps which are long and have difficulty spikes layed throughout like land mines should make it interesting.

robby250 wrote:

abraker wrote:

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?
Combo based = encourages spamming restart on the first miss instead of playing songs through, adds a lot of needless frustration, anguish and stress in a game that is supposed to be fun.
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Sure, I'll admit that a combo based scoring system makes tournament games more exciting to watch, but the trade-off which is making the game much more frustrating to play for the average user isn't worth it.

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, I'm just trying to give my opinion as constructively as I can. I'm not against anything in score v2 except making it more combo based.

This guy.

I am having a lot of issue understanding this "RNG" concept that you guys are talking about. There's been plenty of instances of the game pulling RNG-like behavior on scores.

This one is beyond me. You'd need a PhD level dissertation to properly justify that one (hint: you can't).


Almost as bad, but still telling.


etc.


... it doesn't take long to see this. Anyone saying that the current score system is in any way or shape better than the proposed V2 without any actual data is out of their mind and is just spewing at this point.

@Halogen I'm not defending the current system. I'm simply against the combo component of score v2, which would enforce situations similar to the ones you've listed. For your examples, I'm guessing the distribution of misses/combo breaks is what made the difference in score.

Here's my proposed changes for score v2 specifically:

- Make regular 300s give 95% accuracy and make rainbow 300 scale with OD.
- Replace the fixed combo cap of 400 with 5%-10% of the max combo of the map, using the same algorithm as score v2.
- LN starts and ends should be separated like score v2 does, however LN ends shouldn't add combo (I don't mind if they do though) and they should be made more lenient instead of tighter (I don't really care either way, I just think that making them tighter would make even more people hate LNs and it would be harder to integrate LNs into a map without lowering OD).
- Increase HP drain and make a better anti-mashing system (discussing specifics is futile at this point)
- Add rates, give each mod/rate a multiplier that doesn't make it too difficult to beat your earlier score as long as you master the map relatively well.

The changes I've mentioned are very rough and could be interpreted for better or worse.

I always felt regular 300's should give 99% and rainbow's should give 100% because when it comes to multiple SS's or high acc scores you basically have to look at the score number or the actual # of rainbows and 300's each player got in order to compare instead of a quick % glance. Besides, rainbow's don't change from 16.5 ms no matter the OD.

gintoki147 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

thank you so much
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao

Ever since stepmania introduced scripting as a part of skinning, theming, the diversity of stepmania themes skyrocketed.

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.


2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in

cringe

Basically the point (indirectly but in relevancy to the topic at hand) of my post beforehand was that you can't really make a game based off of consistency and combo when your game mostly consists of charting styles based off of other scoring systems that don't include these systems.

Mini-LNs in stepmania are completely justified and are actually welcomed as a booster for your DP; the equivalent of raw score/%accuracy in O!M. In this game, it is the contrary; many conversions such as Brute Force have watered down the amount of mini-LNs used for what I assume is this reason (I don't want to put words into the "mouth" of the person who converted them).

I truly think that if Osu!Mania was a little more strict with creating their own original content while also mass producing it. You would also have to unrank stuff like haelequin's bullshit ending to fully justify these changes without making it a half-assed game like it currently is. (Unranked stuff doesn't really matter in scoring that much anyway aside from in tourneys which only affects the minority of players)

toolazytowriteanymore so

tl;dr Anything can work as a solid game as long as the work is put in to actually make it a fully-fleshed out thing. It may not appeal to all audiences of course; being a player who doesn't play for consistency I don't think it would much appeal for me, but it would definitely make for interesting content. Pretty much, if you're going to make a game that breaks the mold of current popular VSRG, you had better make the innovations elsewhere than in just the scoring system.








really lazy sry

*Also I should probably say that I understand that this is actually only going to be in MWC for now, just saying stuff

It's only sort of related to scorev2, but I wanted to make a small point about scoring and mapping style.

See, when osu!mania was released, I saw it as a possible way to create a place where every kind of chart/map/file/whatever is acceptable. Not just another game with it's own exclusive community that comes up with their own style and ignores everything every other game is doing. The fact that it supports a wide number of key modes just added to this sense of inclusivity. I'm all for osu!mania finding it's own style, but I'd rather not have a scoring system that is designed around that single style. Nor do I want to see ranked maps all conform to a singular style.

Here's a suggestion for accuracy score part. I tried to keep both essential score bonus for each additional percent above 95% and lenient enough loss for low acc players to give their teams a chance.


Also, i support Shoegazer's combo suggestion. In his system, one miss at 1000 combo map means loss of ~10k. In regular score system, this number is almost the same, lol. Shoegazer's suggestion would make score v2 not combo-based, but combo-adjusted. I didn't find any plots, so i've made one:


I hope, this will help people to understand advantages of Shoegazer's combo formula.

Kivicat wrote:

That means, if you miss in the middle of map and then get 300 combo, you'll lose ~18% of score for those 300 notes. If map has 1500 notes, that will be 18% of 1/5 of 200k, lol (that's about 7k).

If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song. That's a big problem, consider this scenario:

Beatmap X, 2000 notes, hard 20 note burst @ 980th note and another equally hard 20 note burst @ 1980th note. Player A hits all notes, but misses 1 note in the first burst. Player B hits all notes, but misses 1 note in the last burst. Both players performed equally well, but player B gets a higher score.

The same problem exists in the current scoring system. I don't think I've seen any combo based scoring system proposed that doesn't have problems like these, which is why I think it's better to look for a scoring system that does not rely on combo.

Drojoke wrote:

If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song.

See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.

My Brain: *Math Error intensifies*

Kivicat wrote:

Drojoke wrote:

If I understood your post correctly (correct me if I did not), this would mean that playing badly punishes you for notes played later on in the song.

See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.

The problem is still present in some extent.

For example, in a map with 2000 notes, 3 20-note bursts at 500, 550, and 600.
Two players miss once during the first burst. Player A misses once during the 2nd bursts but doesn't miss during the 3rd. Player B doesn't miss during the 2nd burst but misses once during the 3rd. Player A gets a higher score overall than Player B.

The only case where situations like these don't happen would be when the current combo doesn't have an influence in the amount of score given by a note.

For increasing the influence of misses, it would be better to redefine how accuracy is determined. The current accuracy percentage formula (and any scaling defined by a monotonic function of it) underestimates the importance of misses and bad judgments compared to better judgments.

Kivicat wrote:

See Shoegazer's post, there's no such a problem due to logarithmic function for combo and combo limit.

By multiplying the hit value with the logarithm of your combo (up to combo limit), you're only making the problems Full Tablet and I suggested smaller. Differences in scores that really should've been the same are now smaller, but they're still there.

Full Tablet wrote:

The current accuracy percentage formula (and any scaling defined by a monotonic function of it) underestimates the importance of misses and bad judgments compared to better judgments.

Accuracy and score both underestimate the importance of misses and bad judgements, and they always will as long as misses give 0 score and 0% accuracy. Combo bases systems try to make misses matter more by (usually) reducing the score given by subsequent notes, but this creates all sorts of edge cases where such a scoring system produces very odd score differences.

I still think it's best to take inspiration from stepmania's way of punishing for misses and bad judgements; by reducing score. This punishes bad gameplay without edge cases like the ones Full Tablet and I mentioned.

lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again

NoSaucierMagic wrote:

lets be real the only reason they want combo scoring is because they're hoping the entire planet doesn't get blown out by an undefeated usa team that doesn't even play their game, again

This post made my day