1. I know from your mods that you are a fan of high AR, however I really think some of the ARs in this mapset are set too high. Mappers often think high BPM requires high AR but in reality your mapping style isn't hard to read at all with slightly lower AR, I would even say it reads better. What I suggest is the following:
   
   1. Extra could use AR9, only some simple jump and stream patterns here.
   2. Insane is what bothers me the most. AR9 for a map like this? AR8.5 is much better here if you ask me.
   3. Hard could also use AR7.5 or even AR7.

1. 00:32:699 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - Actually this section is very boring to play for this difficulty level. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of undermapping and the rhythm is perfectly fine here it's just that this section requires almost no cursor movement due to slider leniency, and the movement it requires seems to come at the wrong times. These groups of objects 00:33:503 (3,1,2) - 00:34:574 (3,1,2) - etc. all play like a one-measure long stack and the only emphasis in this section is on those beats 00:33:503 - 00:34:574 - etc. What I would recommend is either having a jump before the big white ticks instead (which would mean stacking two circles under the slider and then have the jumps) or replacing the 1/2-sliders with circles somehow. Just try to create a more interesting cursor movement that emphasizes the music better.
2. 01:36:985 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - So why does this pattern emphasize every second white tick (by repetition) when the music clearly repeats every 3 white ticks.. You did it much better all the other times this part comes up in the music so this one really sticks out and should be changed somehow. Try to making something similar to 02:35:913 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - ?
3. 03:11:136 (1) - Hmm this slider fits the music well however I think it harms playability. This map is supposed to be difficult to play however what I enjoy about it is that it generally has very simple patterns that are easy to understand, it doesn't throw around with weird spacing or rhythms etc. This slider is the only thing in the map that doesn't fit this rhythm simplicity because it starts on a red tick and is located in the middle of a 1/4-section. Getting into streams / 1/4-rhythms after red-tick-sliders is kind of hard and I recommend you to change the rhythm around here to something more regular, like this: http://puu.sh/nsgU7/739e8c7964.jpg (cursor position is where the slider originally started)
4. Actually, I love this diff, it's so much fun to play (well I just played it once because I just came back from work and my hand hurts a bit, but it's already fun to look at and move the cursor to the map in edit).. I really like the 'overmapped' stream and the 1/8 gimmicks you used, they fit the song well for me, I wouldn't worry about those. Just the issues above are what still bothers me a bit.

1. 00:15:958 (3) - I'd recommend to move this slider 1/2 tick later so that it starts on the white tick. You can have a circle stack on 00:15:824 - instead then: http://puu.sh/nslSk/696525dad8.jpg I just don't really see a reason why that slider starts on the red tick right now, it would follow the beat and melody much better if you change it. Same applies for 03:57:744 (3) -
2. 01:15:556 (1,2,1,2) - That intense jump / antijump pattern caught me by surprise. It's much harder to play than it looks like because of the really fast movement required in between the combos. I think ctrl+g on 01:15:824 (1,2) - would help a lot to make this more intuitive.
3. 01:36:985 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2) - I find these patterns underwhelming in this difficulty. It's not even so much that you are undermapping - in Freeze you had such a cool idea (repeating patterns to emphasize the repeated vocals) and here it's mapped just like the rest of the chorus. Same applies for the rest of this difficulty, when this music shows up again, except for 03:44:485 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - which is very well done. Note: This basically applies for Insane too.

Desperate-kun wrote:

[General]

1. I know from your mods that you are a fan of high AR, however I really think some of the ARs in this mapset are set too high. Mappers often think high BPM requires high AR but in reality your mapping style isn't hard to read at all with slightly lower AR, I would even say it reads better. What I suggest is the following:
   
   1. Extra could use AR9, only some simple jump and stream patterns here.
   2. Insane is what bothers me the most. AR9 for a map like this? AR8.5 is much better here if you ask me.
   3. Hard could also use AR7.5 or even AR7. Fixed them all (7.5 for hard) I hope it's still ok with the new patterns... I guess so :O

[Freeze]

1. 00:32:699 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - Actually this section is very boring to play for this difficulty level. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of undermapping and the rhythm is perfectly fine here it's just that this section requires almost no cursor movement due to slider leniency, and the movement it requires seems to come at the wrong times. These groups of objects 00:33:503 (3,1,2) - 00:34:574 (3,1,2) - etc. all play like a one-measure long stack and the only emphasis in this section is on those beats 00:33:503 - 00:34:574 - etc. What I would recommend is either having a jump before the big white ticks instead (which would mean stacking two circles under the slider and then have the jumps) or replacing the 1/2-sliders with circles somehow. Just try to create a more interesting cursor movement that emphasizes the music better. Ah, I get your point in a way that when I ask a top-player to play it, at this part I'm always a bit scared that he finds it boring and just quit it xD. On the other hand it really fits the idea I have of the music here. First of all, changing the 1/2 for some circles is no-go because I really want a faster rhythm from 00:41:270 (1) - . And then I tried your suggestion of stacking both notes under the reverse 00:33:235 (2,3) - but, to me at least, it feels that it gives less impact actually. 00:33:235 (2) - Stacked because it's really low, it's basically just the vocal right. 00:33:503 (3) - There's a pretty audible beat here so I use this opportunity to change position. And I insist on "changing position" to me it's almost like this beat was here for this reason lol. Instead of moving your cursor constantly, try to stay at the position of 00:33:235 (2) - and "jump" to that (3) at the last moment.. It's pretty much the flow I have in mind. After that, you don't move at all, in a way that it will give more impact to the movement (as little it is) on the 1/2 here 00:33:770 (1) - A bit hard to explain but... ye, hope you got me xD
2. 01:36:985 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - So why does this pattern emphasize every second white tick (by repetition) when the music clearly repeats every 3 white ticks.. You did it much better all the other times this part comes up in the music so this one really sticks out and should be changed somehow. Try to making something similar to 02:35:913 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - ? Mhh, a bit sad to change the pattern but sounds fair enough. Fixed, I hope it's good enough though *-* Those patterns are kinda hard to create xD ! BUT Remapping the extra diff gave me an idea, so I also remapped this part 03:27:342 (1) - on freeze that I've always found a bit poor of flow.
3. 03:11:136 (1) - Hmm this slider fits the music well however I think it harms playability. This map is supposed to be difficult to play however what I enjoy about it is that it generally has very simple patterns that are easy to understand, it doesn't throw around with weird spacing or rhythms etc. This slider is the only thing in the map that doesn't fit this rhythm simplicity because it starts on a red tick and is located in the middle of a 1/4-section. Getting into streams / 1/4-rhythms after red-tick-sliders is kind of hard and I recommend you to change the rhythm around here to something more regular, like this: http://puu.sh/nsgU7/739e8c7964.jpg (cursor position is where the slider originally started) Really nice point *-* (maybe that's what monstrata wanted to say as well but didn't get it). Fixed it in another way, a bit. We'll see if that works too!
4. Actually, I love this diff, it's so much fun to play (well I just played it once because I just came back from work and my hand hurts a bit, but it's already fun to look at and move the cursor to the map in edit).. I really like the 'overmapped' stream and the 1/8 gimmicks you used, they fit the song well for me, I wouldn't worry about those. Just the issues above are what still bothers me a bit.

[Extra]

1. 00:15:958 (3) - I'd recommend to move this slider 1/2 tick later so that it starts on the white tick. You can have a circle stack on 00:15:824 - instead then: http://puu.sh/nslSk/696525dad8.jpg I just don't really see a reason why that slider starts on the red tick right now, it would follow the beat and melody much better if you change it. Same applies for 03:57:744 (3) - Right, sounds fair, indeed: fixed both!
2. 01:15:556 (1,2,1,2) - That intense jump / antijump pattern caught me by surprise. It's much harder to play than it looks like because of the really fast movement required in between the combos. I think ctrl+g on 01:15:824 (1,2) - would help a lot to make this more intuitive. Kinda disagree here. First of all, it would flow really bad with the next slider, but that's not the main reason why I don't want to change it. I think that the flow as it is here represents a bit better the music. The way you're suggesting is a really circular movement, I don't think that's what the music calls for here. The music feels really "electrfied" and this pattern represents pretty well this I think. Also, the vocals seem to repeat the same tone/pitch each 1/2 ticks. So going twice from bottom to the top represents this as well (from this percpective you could tell me that I could have kept going on with this pattern and...yes I could have done it but it would be too hard imo xD)
3. 01:36:985 (1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,3,4,5,1,2) - I find these patterns underwhelming in this difficulty. It's not even so much that you are undermapping - in Freeze you had such a cool idea (repeating patterns to emphasize the repeated vocals) and here it's mapped just like the rest of the chorus. Same applies for the rest of this difficulty, when this music shows up again, except for 03:44:485 (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3) - which is very well done. Note: This basically applies for Insane too. Fixed, insane as well... Gotta recheck if everything's fine on insane ><

I found the other diffs fine as they are (except what was already mentioned in the mods of the other diffs). I have to agree with Monstrata though that Normal could use some 'real' 1/2 to improve the difficulty spread. I added a few "triple-like" I wonder if it's enough, I told you (should have told monstrata too ><) IRC why I didn't do it from the get-go, you told me it was ok if it gets hard icon, but rating is still going high pretty fast, added like 2 or 3 and it took 0.5 ... So yep, I hope it's enough ><

Alright so I explained many issues more in-depth than I normally would. The reason is that I see some miscommunication happening between the previous modders and you. They brought up some valid points that were important to them and you often replied very short and a bit meaningless (best example is Monstrata's concern about the difficulty spread). So to solve this problem I tried to give longer explanation but I expect the same from you when you reply and deny - to give proper reasoning for your denial.

Seeing how much effort you already put into this mapset, fixing up the spread issue and the other issues shouldn't be a problem for you. I am willing to bubble this mapset if the spread issue gets fixed and if you provide reasonable explanations for everything you denied from this mod. :3

Desperate-kun wrote:

02:35:913 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - in Extra is missing hitsounds. Fix that and I'll blebub.

Enon wrote:

don't bully qualified mappers

Bearizm wrote:

I also forgot to mention what's the point of having 4 combo colors with is barely different? or am i color blind

Yales wrote:

Bearizm wrote:

I also forgot to mention what's the point of having 4 combo colors with is barely different? or am i color blind

Why do the color "gray" even exist? We have "white" after all.

Yales wrote:

You could have made those kind of research before coming grumbling here (and basically asking me to map another diff) on a set of 6 diffs, 4 minutes drain time that I fully mapped by myself... I'm totally willing to get feedback, it's even appreciated but at least put the form. Cause when you say "I hate to be that guy" ... actually you love it don't you?

Bearizm wrote:

Might as well not have a qualified section, right? Just rank every map that is given a heart! Also I'm not bullying or anything, I'm expressing what I think about the map, and how it can be better. How is that bullying?

I also forgot to mention what's the point of having 4 combo colors with is barely different? or am i color blind

Enon wrote:

heyy just joke D:

Sieg wrote:

a bit of offtopic D:

I'm here not to feedback but with another question. What you guys think, is this can be somewhat accurate gaps for this beatmap?

Natsu wrote:

Yales yes your mp3 can be from the same source, but hear the quality difference and the enconde difference

yours:

SPOILER

mine:

SPOILER

I'm not the best encoding audio, but someone maybe can get an even better one from nicovideo, unless you want to keep a really low quality one. I wouldn't talk too much about the spread, but I have same feeling as Beazrim and Sieg

Yales wrote:

For the spread... I just can't take it. Sorry. I mapped the whole thing just to rank "freeze" in a way that it, at least, follow the ranking criteria... If after that there's some unspoken rules... I'm just like "no"
... If you want to get an idea of the feel I have about this set. Try to drink 4L of millk at once... no fun

Bearizm wrote:

@Desp I've always thought spreads are supposed to be balanced throughout all the difficulties being made (?)

Desperate-kun wrote:

Bearizm wrote:

@Desp I've always thought spreads are supposed to be balanced throughout all the difficulties being made (?)

Then why do mapsets with 5 Extra difficulties get ranked? Things like E--N---------H-----I are bad because the Normal could clearly be harder to create a more polished spread (just an example) but the spread here is reasonably focused on the higher difficulty-tier.
If the spread rule change that was proposed and hugely dismissed by the community a few weeks ago got through, this would be an issue, but as it is right now, not really.

Smoothie World wrote:

00:32:699 - Does anyone else think the hitsounds hear are nearly impossible to hear? I have mine pretty loud and I had trouble hearing them I don't know, I can hear them just fine tbh.

00:04:708 (2,1) - Why is this 6.71x spacing? I don't get it. At 00:06:851 (2,1) you have 3.5x and 00:08:994 (2,1) is even smaller, meanwhile the song is getting more and more intense. Well, it's still the same flow so I don't think it plays bad. Well, I don't even "think" it plays bad. It does play good to me. Now if you want to know exactly why I did that. It's because the music before this part feels flat, like it doesn't get more intense. Until this part where the song does get more intense (it's like a new section in the same section if you want.. a new pattern basically.) This is why I want a jump to those sliders. Now about 00:08:994 (2,1) - this your own interpretation. To me it actually gets less intense to be finally cut by this sound 00:10:199 (1) - which is really intense for that matter.

00:12:811 - You don't have a triple on this tick anywhere else in the song. It's mapped to nothing. When you want to emphasize the music with a triple it's usually "overmapped". You could probably have point them all out by the way (and not only my map). About this one 00:12:744 (3,4,5) - it's obviously to recall 00:12:208 (6,7,1) - which follows the same sound. It's just a gimmick to create some game, pretty sad you didn't see it tbh Now, "why it's not always the same on similar parts" because if I think it's fun to play I don't think it's a good thing to overuse this technique (not for this map at least).

Shiirn wrote:

on Freeze:

02:25:199 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1) - this stanza is in 1/3, not 1/4. Pretty sure it's debatable. I asked MUTLIPLE players (from average to expert) as well as modders/mappers and the majority told me it was fine and I should keep it (I still have some screenshots xD) For my part I feel that 1/4 is way more fitting, also you have no clue what you're hitting when it's put 1/3.


I'm sure there's more that can be worked out. Freeze is fairly good overall, but there are some, to me, major oversights that should be ironed out before qualification. You might actually want to detail a bit more. Like... that's your point of view, and I'm thankful for that. But to me it's fine and after 9 months spamming #modreq, 46 checks (not counting the hundreds of testplays) your remark feels like a stone in my face.

Bonsai wrote:

Also, minor but imo unfitting nonetheless, 02:16:628 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5) - the music is kinda going half-BPM but you just throw jumps around anyways, I don't think that represents the music very well

Yales wrote:

edit: I'll re-answer later actually maybe. Maybe not I'm sorry but when I read this:

Bonsai wrote:

Also, minor but imo unfitting nonetheless, 02:16:628 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,3,4,5) - the music is kinda going half-BPM but you just throw jumps around anyways, I don't think that represents the music very well

I just don't know what to say... It fits perfectly to me. To me, this section is the highlight of the whole map... If you don't like it fine, but don't come here to ask a DQ because you dont "think it reprensents the music well" for this case you can map your own set. really. I think this is really inapropriate.

Bonsai wrote:

That was just one minor thing I noticed when looking at it, that's not what I'm getting worked up about / asking a DQ for, I just wanted to mention it D:

Yales wrote:

I think you just didn't get the whole idea of my mapping. And... before it pops up (I know this community now) don't even tell me "your point is just to overmapped" otherwise I would have incorporate this map https://osu.ppy.sh/s/291154

Okoratu wrote:

Isn't that what Tengaku did? I'm pretty sure that's what Tengaku did lol

Shiirn wrote:

I can't believe that this even has the potential to be argued over. DQ, fix it, requalify. If the DQers refuse to recheck your map then they're doing their job wrong.

Bonsai wrote:

And I see absolutely no reason for 01:46:092 (3,3,3,2,1,2) - being 1/8s, there's not even a single 1/4 on any of them, and just mapping some random sounds with 1/8 just bc you feel like it is just ?!

Shiirn wrote:

For what it's worth, the only time I think using the wrong snapping in terms of 1/3 vs 1/4 is when the music has a 1/6 quad and it is mapped as a triple. That is the only case. Period.

Bonsai wrote:

And yeah, starting to tell us your reasons for all those sliders and overmaps instead of "I think it fits" would be a great way to start rational discussion too btw

Bonsai wrote:

How about you guys wait for the mapper's response before trying to put words in their mouth?

Bonsai wrote:

not saying your map is stupid, just saying that player's opinions don't mean anything) That's pretty good to mention, because when you say that my overmapping or w/e are "ridiculous" this is the message you're bringing.

I like how you're bringing "If you map could fit in other songs with the same BPM, then your map is bad" when you are literally overmapping tons of stuff just to make it exciting to play. Your triplets and streams would fit in any other song just as well simply because they aren't even existing in this song in the first place. Actually this map is way easier than what most mappers would make nowadays for a song like that, so saying I mapped this way to make it exciting is so-so.

"I even feel you checked the map without even listening to the music." Yeah right, that's why I'm pointing out overmaps. ok
I know what you want to represent with those sliders and other overmaps of all sorts, I just think that overmapping is a very bad way to do that. There are thousands of ways to emphasize everything you want without resorting to overmapping, and that's what I want to encourage, because it seems like you are just overmapping to make the map be exciting when that could be done in so many other ways. But what if it fits to me? I mean.. My favourite mappers tend to do that as well, I have more faith in them than 2 or 3 modders.

A 1/2-slider, maybe with one reverse, would be a hold note too, and would not ignore the fact that that 'low' instrument actually has a 1/2-beat inbetween which is being completely ignored this way. Why does it need to be 1/8 when there is no 1/8 in the music? I don't even want to asnwer that because this is way too subjective, the music is defenitely not flat 1/1 or 1/2. To me if you map like this you miss a chance to show the potential of those sounds my sliders are following

It doesn't seem like he's 'ovbiously' knowing that when all he says is "I asked players and they said 1/4 is fine". The question was already mentioned (on another stream actually) and from that I asked multiple people to be sure of myself. At the end Desperate-kun checked the streams and said: " I really like the 'overmapped' stream and the 1/8 gimmicks you used, they fit the song well for me, I wouldn't worry about those. " So no, your point of view isn't general.

(maybe because the rest didn't fit that well in the first place?!? deep thoughts ikr) Actually no, to me 1/4 fits great, and I really, sincerly doubt you found this part was 1/3 by looking the map at first sight and without deleting the whole stream put the audio at 25% speed etc... Like "it's so obvious it's 1/3.."

Your point of view is welcome. But I won't change my style because of it. As I said (or as I wanted to say lol) the feedbacks I got from some specific mappers have way more impact than some random modders (which are, don't get me wrong, interesting to hear, but won't necessarily make a difference).

Shiirn wrote:

Didn't Loctav say something about not using other maps as justification for other maps?

Liiraye wrote:

http://puu.sh/nExzW/f6ae693ecc.jpg
is how I'd map it

edit: actually this fits the synth better

Yales wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

http://puu.sh/nExzW/f6ae693ecc.jpg
is how I'd map it

edit: actually this fits the synth better

Thanks for your suggestion, really much appreciated. But then it doesn't follow the melody, and the last downbeat not being hit isn't smthing I like.

Also, we shouldn't forget that if there's kick sliders here 02:25:735 (1,2,1,2) - it's because the music gets more intense in this whole section.
Therefore since it seems we don't need the thoughts of players (as they could "simply mash their keyboard" mhmh), we should just follow the music in a way that it makes sense I found this meanwhile http://puu.sh/nEBoW/d275bec69e.jpg (I'm dead serious about this btw). I mean pace seems approrpiate, most audible beats (I'll keep saying there's a drumroll behind) are followed too. I'm like why not. Or can I ask someone to edit mp3? Pretty sure it's possible to be fixed this way. I mean it's not like we would actually hear something different ...

Yales wrote:

Liiraye wrote:

http://puu.sh/nExzW/f6ae693ecc.jpg
is how I'd map it

edit: actually this fits the synth better

Thanks for your suggestion, really much appreciated. But then it doesn't follow the melody, and the last downbeat not being hit isn't smthing I like.

Also, we shouldn't forget that if there's kick sliders here 02:25:735 (1,2,1,2) - it's because the music gets more intense in this whole section.
Therefore since it seems we don't need the thoughts of players (as they could "simply mash their keyboard" mhmh), we should just follow the music in a way that it makes sense I found this meanwhile http://puu.sh/nEBoW/d275bec69e.jpg (I'm dead serious about this btw). I mean pace seems approrpiate, most audible beats (I'll keep saying there's a drumroll behind) are followed too. I'm like why not. Or can I ask someone to edit mp3? Pretty sure it's possible to be fixed this way. I mean it's not like we would actually hear something different ...

Liiraye wrote:

isn't that pic you did like making a 1/8 stream on a 1/4? using 1/6 triples on 1/3 notes...

generally a rule of thumb is to start a stance shift with sliders/repeat sliders so that the player doesn't get suddenly thrown off by going from 1/4 to 1/3, especially in a fast map like this in the middle of stream (not sure how much good this will do in scorev2 tho lol)

since the 1/3 is hard to hear, I'd suggest following the synths as I did, since they are more audible than the 1/3 while playing. Try it out and see what you think, good luck regardless!

HappyRocket88 wrote:

It's somehow weird QATs haven't come yet, even after there was a healthy discussion here and there are few points to fix. o.o

Smoothie World wrote:

00:32:699 - Does anyone else think the hitsounds hear are nearly impossible to hear? I have mine pretty loud and I had trouble hearing them

00:04:708 (2,1) - Why is this 6.71x spacing? I don't get it. At 00:06:851 (2,1) you have 3.5x and 00:08:994 (2,1) is even smaller, meanwhile the song is getting more and more intense.

00:12:811 - You don't have a triple on this tick anywhere else in the song. It's mapped to nothing.

Liiraye wrote:

If he edits it accordingly I have no issues here. We are talking about the rule saying no unsnapped notes, isn't that as objective as it gets?

Claiming it should be mapped ignoring this rule is a subjective statement. You say it's easier/more intuitive to play, I ask when did we start catering to players instead of striving to do justice to it's composers work & the actual sounds it provides us?

The composer made it 1/3 for a reason. This is for example why sometimes, having empty sliderends is fine because they aren't ignoring the music, instead adding an aspect to it. There's a clear distinction there.

Or am I missing something here?