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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
As frustrating as it is, I actually like the weighting on PP. It ensures that you don't have inflation on PP as players play more and more songs, making the ranking system much more stable, which is a major requirement for any half-decent ranking system.

One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Can't say I disagree with that. At least I can say I tried.
Omio9999
44 posts
Joined January 2012
Omio9999
Okay, so far, in here, I've heard a lot of whining, and not really a lot of meat for suggesting.

bluh bluh ban all autoconverts
First, what ARE autoconverts? I'm not a "mania" purist - I'm casual as crap, I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal.
Second, assuming that there's mania-specific maps, removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality. "OH LOOK EVERYONE, LET'S MURDER THE SAME TWENTY SONGS!" isn't something I really relish sitting behind, no offense intended.
osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun. Taiko's singled out, and every attempt I make to play that mode casually ends either in frustration, disappointment, or otherwise feeling inept - the casuals are kinda singled out.

rank _k scores separately
How about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.

Now then, onto my ideas (note, they're guesses, I don't know what the actual algorithm entails):

1) Develop a formula for average density, and pace - to factor into the possible "stars" (let's face it, having "slow parts" will make a difference no matter what, "skipping" them requires database/resubmitting tweaks that I don't think the dev team wants to really do). ie. [*] = note density x (bpm/120)
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
3) (may also be under 'gameplay', and since I don't know the origin of osu!mania, this can be ignored) Alter how 'spinners' function (perhaps similar to Taiko, but limited to just the 4K bindings for spinner input)? I notice that in really spinner-happy maps, they turn sad-easy.

...And I went braindead. Oh well, current base is good.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Omio9999 wrote:

I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal. Removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality.osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun.
Why are you talking about pp's if you're playing casually ? The pp system - as half-arsed as it is - is a competitive element in the game. If you're playing casually nothing prevents you from playing autoconverts for fun. By the way, we are talking about unranking the autoconverts so they don't give any pp at all, not straight out remove them.

Omio9999 wrote:

rank _k scores separately
How about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.
Following what I said previously, you can only apply nK-mods to autoconverts. Mania-specific maps are not affected by those mods. (Not to say pretty much everyone farms on mania-specific maps since they usually give way more pp's).

Omio9999 wrote:

2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
If your map list is mostly, if not entirely made out of autoconverts, then it's completely normal. They are usually far easier than mania-specific maps (or retardedly hard for a few of them). There is currently only one mania-specific ranked map rated over 7 stars which would Imperishable Night 2006, and a few maps over or around 6 stars (off the top of my head, Akasha, Intersect Thunderbolt, Shuffle Heaven, Zirkfied...). There are loads of 5 stars maps as well.

Anyway, I don't want to offend you but it seems your current o!m experience was mostly based around autoconverts. FYI, autoconverts as you might have guessed, are automatically converted by the game from osu!standard maps. They're okayish for first-timers, but past that point everyone is better off playing mania-specific because of the way they are structured mapping-wise. You may not see what I'm talking about atm but I can assure you that autoconverts feel REALLY WRONG compared to mania-specific maps (pitch relevancy, layering, SVs... autoconverts fail at all of that and more).

I didn't bother replying to your entire post because your view on the whole thing is uuuh... out of place I guess, due to your lack of experience, and thus so are your statements.

That said, the only real downside for mania-specific maps is that the mappool is tiny compared to osu!std, but there are enough ranked maps and tons of unranked which keep the mode alive and fun for most players.

I suggest you play some more o!m on mania-specific maps to give you a better idea of the current situation. Have fun :D
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020

Bobbias wrote:

One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
On the other hand, everyone receives the same incentive, so "zero out".

I admit I also spam the song to get a lucky personal best, but its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
It is practice, but not all practice is equal. Spamming is practice on the specifics of that particular map, not on maps as a whole, so it will not help you learn as quickly for other maps as randomized practice does. It can help if that map contains specific patterns you have trouble with, but it still results in slower general skill improvement. Especially if it's grinding for SS scores. All that does is make you marginally more consistent on easy songs. In the 3 months I focused on that kind of improvement in stepmania I found that I actually got worse at harder maps because of lack of practice on them.

Ideally though I'd prefer the system to track every score a player makes, so it can see how consistent a player is.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
you can't ask consistency in players because the next day they could be drunk while playing. or ate a lot of carbo and meat. or had an injury. or anything.

heck I'd even wager that a change in room temperature affects the player's stamina. most people I know irl would feel their wrist/hands like "frozen" when its cold or getting hit by your standard electric fan.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

kidlat020 wrote:

its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

kidlat020 wrote:

its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)
We were talking about spam playing the same song over and over, not anmitsu/spamming the keys.

And yeah, I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.
that only means that's your real play.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
You don't make sense :s
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
that 5% increase in a single day wasn't luck. that was his true ability [at that day].

this had always been a problem in statistical data. flip a coin 100 times. same principle.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
I don't get'cha, most of my top pp scores are pure luck with spamming and I can't get remotely close to beating them (with exception of Utakata, but I've played it like 100 times)
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I don't get'cha, most of my top pp scores are pure luck with spamming and I can't get remotely close to beating them (with exception of Utakata, but I've played it like 100 times)
This is exactly what I was talking about. Random lucky scores happen. I've had scores that took 9 months before I could beat them because of that. If you spam play songs, you have an advantage because you can play each song until you get a lucky score, then more of your top scores are likely to be lucky scores.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I've had scores that took 9 months before I could beat them because of that.
you already improved.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I don't consider those lucky scores as my real level.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Taking 9 months to catch up to a lucky spammed score isn't really improvement following your logic.
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Tidek wrote:

I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
To be honest, if it wasn't for kind-of broken o!m mechanics and my attitude of clearing hard stuff>getting good accuracy, it would probably be easier for me to do so. Still, lucky scores happen and it's not easy to beat them.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Tidek wrote:

I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
Not everyone learns at the same pace. I've been playing for over a decade, and there are plenty of players with far less time who are far better than me. So just because you can beat your old scores in some amount of time doesn't mean anything for anyone else.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
it doesn't disprove anything either. because, records say that you've improved even though you yourself don't feel it is so.

even if its a lucky run.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
"I did a fluke 700k run on that map and I won't be able to beat it in 3 months, but I've improved"
So you're saying that lucky run shows our true skill and then we go backwards?

kidlat020 wrote:

it doesn't disprove anything either. because, records say that you've improved even though you yourself don't feel it is so.
"I've run 100m in 11 seconds once, but now I'm running it in 15 seconds. Still, I'm an olympic class runner."
Well in o!m lucky spams don't show ANYTHING. You can literally spam a map to 700k without even looking. If you call that an improvement, then I'm outta here.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
"I've run 100m in 11 seconds once, but now I'm running it in 15 seconds. Still, I'm an olympic class runner."
yeah sure. who's to prove (or disprove) that said athlete ate too much sugar or carbs the next day that would interfere with his performance?

or that he wasn't really "lucky" but actually in top shape (correct sugar intake and carbs)?

this doesn't apply to mania only. even std and taiko would.

seriously, if you guys think practicing is the only factor playing here, then I'm outta here.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
good emotional and physical health plays an important role in anything, but for something like osu, i dont see how anything beyond keeping away from harmful illegal drugs and eating/sleeping right would affect your performance positively [aside from practicing].
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I'm overweight (despite being 3k rank) so I'd know that even the smallest excess of fat in my fingers is interfering with my hitting the keys.

anything that's double note hit is my greatest enemy. jackhammers are my death.

#healthissues
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Overall health will certainly help. It's well known that a healthy body will have a positive effect on the brain, and that things like eating breakfast can have a positive effect on outcomes later that day. However, I have a feeling that these factors are very small, and have more of a cumulative effect than any immediate effect on any specific day.

I currently have a score on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/239943 which is 100k higher than my other scores (roughly 9% accuracy above my average score). It will likely take me months before any one of my average scores will match that level. It's certainly possible that I could beat that score next time I play that map, but the chances are extremely small.

Unless you're entozer, everyone finds jackhammers hard.
lenpai
1,783 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
*Cough Jxyden 2000 note per minute 1/8 + 1/16 jack master (song is plasma strike btw, its an Ftb chart/map)

Seriously though practice is still what matters most. What dictates the skill improvement rate of a player depends in the type of charts he plays (pattern specific, ranked, or comfort zone stuff) + (or times, its up to the reader) his actual talent or learning speed.

And about best plays, they DO NOT always (sightreads taken into consideration) show a player's actual skill level. It just shows his potential and that improvement is possible.

Overall body condition does help. Boredom, sleepiness, hunger, weak body, and any oher impediment does affect a players gameplay. The magnitude varies from player to player. Same goes for positive conditions.
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko
Pls fix this!This map gives more pp with 8k mod then the original one on 7k 8k-> http://puu.sh/enkVN/ba74a51de6.png ( pp amount http://puu.sh/enlmH/0d4700d736.png ) 7k -> http://puu.sh/enkYj/f12e732f9f.png ( pp amount http://puu.sh/enlzN/40a08c1f90.png )
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
^ Is that a bug?

If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable

If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko

Tristan97 wrote:

^ Is that a bug?

If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable

If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
nope it isnt this map on 8k has 6,XX* and on 7k it has 4,XX* and the pp ranking depends on how much * the map has so the 8k version is obviously more pp worth then the 7k version
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-
Pipe Dream's 8K autoconvert is rated a lot higher than the 7k because it has this


not really a bug, but the way hitsounds are converted
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I get that, it's just that if Pipe Dream's 7k 4.21 difficulty should be treated as a separate map from the 8k 6.xx star difficulty. None of this 'you'll get however many pp the score you just got multiplied by 0.90 would have been worth on the 7k chart' for somebody that manages the scratches amazingly and gets an S on the 8k map.

(If they are going to worth pp)
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko

Tristan97 wrote:

I get that, it's just that if Pipe Dream's 7k 4.21 difficulty should be treated as a separate map from the 8k 6.xx star difficulty. None of this 'you'll get however many pp the score you just got multiplied by 0.90 would have been worth on the 7k chart' for somebody that manages the scratches amazingly and gets an S on the 8k map.

(If they are going to worth pp)
but how should some1 with nearly 1kk go for the 8k version? u know the max you can get is 900k
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
^That's my point. If getting a perfect score on the 'original autoconverted difficulty' of 7 keys granted full pp, then why shouldn't getting straight 320s be worth the full pp of the 8k difficulty? Just because it's not the 'naturally converted number of keys'?

They are autoconverts, there shouldn't be such a discrepancy.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
They are autoconverts, they shouldn't give ANY pp
/thread
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

They are autoconverts, they shouldn't give ANY pp
/thread
I considered saying this earlier. Then I realized it's not gonna change anything anyway. Common sense has lost this round.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Well it's been said a lot of times before, so I just repeat it
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I mean, as the mania community increases, we could see if eventually the BATs that are mania playres would make a case for making autoconverts not worth pp.

But there a a lot of things I think the osu!mania system could do to improve. I know this is the right place and it won't happen until we act, but for now, I feel as if waiting for the new keymodes to settle in is the best way to allow developments for the mode in general progress.

In the mean while, people should just continue to play the mode and map more ET difficultiesspreads.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
1) People ARE mapping ET spreads
2) Changes in PP system are inevitable and actually being worked on atm
3) We shouldn't have autoconverts giving pp at ANY stage of development
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
Per-mod highscores and thus pp are going to come. In fact they're already implemented and will be enabled as soon as the server is ready.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Thanks for bothering to respond Tom94. So does that mean that ET players can have both the Identity Part 4 non-mod 7k map and the Identity Part 4 modded 8k map show in their top ranks, each earning separate pp?

Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Tristan97 wrote:

Thanks for bothering to respond Tom94. So does that mean that ET players can have both the Identity Part 4 non-mod 7k map and the Identity Part 4 modded 8k map show in their top ranks, each earning separate pp?

Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
The original intention is to only allow each difficulty to only give pp once - in that case for the score giving the most. I can see why it might be more desirable to allow multiple pp gains from the same map due to different keymods basically being different maps. Such an exception could possibly be made.
Blocko
osu! Alumni
751 posts
Joined February 2014
Blocko
What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
So this means the return of DT + pp then ?
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Blocko wrote:

What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
I'd say DT deserves to be separate more than xk mods on autoconverts.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97

Bobbias wrote:

I'd say DT deserves to be separate more than xk mods on autoconverts.
I would agree with this
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
What about HR?
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Tidek wrote:

What about HR?
I suppose HR might also deserve it... Although I'd say less than DT. With HR, if you're capable of getting a good score (let's say 98-100%) on something, it's not going to be that much harder. The HP drain increase is nearly meaningless at that point, and the OD increase likely won't make a very large impact on your accuracy, although it will at least have more of an effect than the increased HP drain.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Staiain wrote:

So this means the return of DT + pp then ?
DT would start giving a pp bonus again, yes.


Blocko wrote:

What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
No. It's the same map, just faster. Of course both your DT and nomod scores would be stored, but you couldn't get pp for nomod AND for DT at the same time. You'd only get pp for whichever of the 2 scores gives more pp. Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.

Keymods are the only ones with which you will possibly be able to get pp multiple times from the same map.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Does this imply that things like country ranking and global ranking are going to decrease in relevancy due to the fact that some players will only play maps on dt, making the score they receive not reflective of the no-mod score? Could this be solved by changing the ranking system to going by pp earned (or creating an entirely new ranking for supporters or similar)?
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Tristan97 wrote:

Does this imply that things like country ranking and global ranking are going to decrease in relevancy due to the fact that some players will only play maps on dt, making the score they receive not reflective of the no-mod score? Could this be solved by changing the ranking system to going by pp earned (or creating an entirely new ranking for supporters or similar)?
I imagine this will be too complicated to implement, so nah.
btw we could totally have hr back as ranked mod
Tokiiwa
102 posts
Joined February 2014
Tokiiwa
mod pp hype
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
The main problem is that no1 will care about scoreboard on map when it will be implement. (unless DT will increase max possible points to for example 1,12mln but thats not going to happen i guess)
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
You can just get a nomod highscore for places and dt score for pp, I see no problem here.
Also nobody really cares about scoreboard if they farm pp, it's just an addition
JimJoy
9 posts
Joined July 2012
JimJoy
but isnt pp calculated only for passes with highest score?
Frustration
57 posts
Joined September 2013
Frustration

JimJoy wrote:

but isnt pp calculated only for passes with highest score?
Looks like not in this case

Tom94 wrote:

Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.
Also, I'd like to ask if there is any ETA about the new DT pp calculations going live
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

Tom94 wrote:

Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.

Keymods are the only ones with which you will possibly be able to get pp multiple times from the same map.
Requesting additional clarification for the first part of this post: I understand the part about all scores getting stored and the highest PP score of them count, but are the leaderboards exclusive from the performance point calculation?

What I mean is this: if someone were to get 1000 MAX and 20 300s on a song and have that score recorded, and then played the same song and got 980 MAX and 40 300s (improbable but possible on easier songs), would the first score be the one to show up on the leaderboards since it is a higher score?

As an aside, I'm slowly getting back into osu! again and I apologize if this question comes across as stupid.
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
I'm actually curious if a 90 - 95 % score on DT will be worth more than 98 - 100% score nomod PP wise, if it is imagine the potential to start DT'ing 4 - 5 star maps 8-)
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
@Halogen
This will basically mean that if you have that 1000xMAX 20x300 score on leaderboards and let's say it gives 150pp, and then you'll score 950xMAX 70x300 score with DT that would give 200 pp, the first score is counted towards your positions on map ranking (since it has higher score) and second one is counted towards your pp (since it gives more)
Hope that explains it D:
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
sorry for almost double posting but, will the PP gain scale with the star diffuculty, like if a map is 6* on DT, will it give the same amount as a 6* map nomod?
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-

Staiain wrote:

sorry for almost double posting but, will the PP gain scale with the star diffuculty, like if a map is 6* on DT, will it give the same amount as a 6* map nomod?
This is the case for other modes I think, so I'd assume so.
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

-Kamikaze- wrote:

@Halogen
This will basically mean that if you have that 1000xMAX 20x300 score on leaderboards and let's say it gives 150pp, and then you'll score 950xMAX 70x300 score with DT that would give 200 pp, the first score is counted towards your positions on map ranking (since it has higher score) and second one is counted towards your pp (since it gives more)
Hope that explains it D:
That does, thanks!
Sepha
6 posts
Joined May 2013
Sepha
Not sure if this has already been explained but here goes:
So i download a ranked beatmap and first play ever get 57pp weighted at 24%, it says i should get 14pp, which is fair enough. I look and i only have 1pp added to my total, regardless of how long i wait for it to update. Can someone explain why this is?
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

SolidGuy wrote:

Not sure if this has already been explained but here goes:
So i download a ranked beatmap and first play ever get 57pp weighted at 24%, it says i should get 14pp, which is fair enough. I look and i only have 1pp added to my total, regardless of how long i wait for it to update. Can someone explain why this is?
When you got that score with 57pp, all scores you have got that are worth less than 57pp reduced their weighting in 5% (reducing the amount of pp they give).
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
So I know this may have already been discussed to an extent, but if the different keymodes are suppossed to be treated as different modes, then why are there not separate rankings for each keymode? That would help solve a lot of discrepancies with rankings and such.
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
The hype continues, waiting for server implementation :')
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu
PLZ INCLUDE RANDOM MODE RANK SCORE TOO
MAAAAAAAAAAAAAS
MAAAAAAAAAAAAAS
DT nooooooooooooo

So terrible...
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

_S u w a k o_ wrote:

PLZ INCLUDE RANDOM MODE RANK SCORE TOO
How would you make it work with everyone playing the same map with different patterns everytime ? :c
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
I'm against random being ranked, because it messes up mapper's work too much. It changes patterns that are supossed to be tricky into just random placed which makes it easier (not in all cases obv). I would love to see mirror mod ranked though, it would be perfect for 2p players and on one-hand bias maps
Halogen-
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
574 posts
Joined September 2009
Halogen-

Tristan97 wrote:

So I know this may have already been discussed to an extent, but if the different keymodes are suppossed to be treated as different modes, then why are there not separate rankings for each keymode? That would help solve a lot of discrepancies with rankings and such.
I've wondered this myself. It seems like there's still some merit in valuing higher keymodes, but I don't understand why.

_S u w a k o_ wrote:

PLZ INCLUDE RANDOM MODE RANK SCORE TOO
Random is something that absolutely should never be ranked. Pattern deviations can cause one person's attempt at a map to be easier than someone else's. That kind of deviation has no place in ranking.
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu
if u guys thinks about fair, i think mirror mode would be fit and reasonable.

and the mirror is exist in hardrock mode. ( even they don't use it for mirror pattern )
Mwallx
223 posts
Joined April 2014
Mwallx
Umm... Saw this thread casually.
I don't know much about other things but my opinion is that autoconvert must be unrankable.
As a player for years I can say that at least 95% autoconvert is not qualifyied to be rankable.
And about score,I think it's necessary to intensify the condition of combo.I met uncountable times
that situations like I was 96% 1 miss being beaten by 98% 30miss. It's just ridiculous.
Thanks for reading ._.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Scoring system is set in stone now, there's no way they're gonna change it. As for autoconverts this has been said and repeated again and again but they somehow want to keep them ranked >.>
Shoegazer
osu!mania Paragon
528 posts
Joined April 2013
Shoegazer
The only legitimate type of "random" mod should be mirror in my opinion, as the hand bias levels would be the same, just switched onto different hands. Using any other deviation of patterns would make the file's patterns too different from the original to really be compared legitimately. Little off-topic, but why isn't there a Mirror option for o!m anyway? Feels a little odd to have a random mod but not mirror.

also DT PP hype
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
Any news on the DT PP front?
EtienneXC
Former osu!mania 4K Champion: 2015
115 posts
Joined January 2015
EtienneXC

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Demane
15 posts
Joined June 2013
Demane

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Elementaires
658 posts
Joined January 2013
Elementaires

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Frustration
57 posts
Joined September 2013
Frustration

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Sillyveon
8 posts
Joined January 2014
Sillyveon
Posting this because this bug is not fixed. Yesterday I asked morisan7 to try Pipe Dream on 8K because it has a 6.22 star rating and offers approximately 400p with an A rank. I've compared his score to other people who has similar scores, and I noticed that some changes have been implemented to the pp system.

morisan7's score - 90.95% (194pp)


someone's score - 90.83% (399pp)


It seems like people who have tried this song recently do not get the same pp as the ones before. Please look into this problem, thank you.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Good thing you've brought that up. In standard you guys have disabled pp from tag maps because of "pp abuse", basically one touchscreen player getting 555pp from one of the maps. So why do we still have autoconverts when you can get 350pp from some of them, and you get shit like pipe dream that gets 200pp for ss nomod and 650pp for s on 8k? That's clearly more abusing than one 555pp play, isn't it? And we do we HAVE to play autoconverts to be able to fight for top ranks? That's nonsense.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
autoconverts

lol
abraker
Global Moderator
8,355 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Rido
812 posts
Joined April 2014
Rido

Staiain wrote:

Any news on the DT PP front?
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu

_Sylveon_ wrote:

Posting this because this bug is not fixed. Yesterday I asked morisan7 to try Pipe Dream on 8K because it has a 6.22 star rating and offers approximately 400p with an A rank. I've compared his score to other people who has similar scores, and I noticed that some changes have been implemented to the pp system.

morisan7's score - 90.95% (194pp)


someone's score - 90.83% (399pp)


It seems like people who have tried this song recently do not get the same pp as the ones before. Please look into this problem, thank you.
wtf recently i saw lovesmack player's bp which named Ex something and he still could get 6~700 worth pp.. i quite confuse @.@
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Good thing you've brought that up. In standard you guys have disabled pp from tag maps because of "pp abuse", basically one touchscreen player getting 555pp from one of the maps. So why do we still have autoconverts when you can get 350pp from some of them, and you get shit like pipe dream that gets 200pp for ss nomod and 650pp for s on 8k? That's clearly more abusing than one 555pp play, isn't it? And we do we HAVE to play autoconverts to be able to fight for top ranks? That's nonsense.

i agree your opinion of pipe dream overall. but, u don't have to blame autoconverts. lol

the autoconvert maps are still osu! mania mapset itself. they still follow music and has pattern.

i know, the patterns are kinda terrible. i still understand it a lot since i am a mapper and player.

but you might already know that most of autoconverts are not have worth pp like mania specific maps..

the amount of high pp maps are limited than specific maps. i think it's still reasonable.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
You still need to play autoconverts in order to be top 10, even if your nickname is jhlee0133 or abcdullah
and that's WRONG
Redon
302 posts
Joined November 2013
Redon
From the standard pp discussion thread

Tom94 wrote:

Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
Now that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

Redon wrote:

From the standard pp discussion thread

Tom94 wrote:

Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
Now that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.
yesyesyesyesyes
Frustration
57 posts
Joined September 2013
Frustration

Redon wrote:

From the standard pp discussion thread

Tom94 wrote:

Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
Now that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.
So much this
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu

-Kamikaze- wrote:

You still need to play autoconverts in order to be top 10, even if your nickname is jhlee0133 or abcdullah
and that's WRONG

i bet you talking about #1 person who was farmed autoconverts a lot.

then i will say my opinion as top 10 player. lol. you will get 0 pp even you fc 4.2~4.5 star rating difficulty map.

then imagine how many maps which has star rating 4 stars over in autoconvert. i think 20 maps around?

so, is it still painful? hmm. whatever i know your feeling and intention. but it's not absoultely wrong imo
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Redon wrote:

From the standard pp discussion thread

Tom94 wrote:

Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
Now that we're past the "everything that has a scoreboard must give pp" philosophy, can we talk about removing pp from autoconverts? They are awful, would never have passed the ranking rules as a mania map, they bring nothing but pp calculation issues both in mania and taiko, and players, especially newcomers, should not be encouraged to play them instead of actual mania maps.
Whole thread in a nutshell.
@Suwako: Autoconverts are not fully fledged mania maps, they are horrific to play, have broken note placement, random density and AWFUL patterns. This kind of map shouldn't give ANY pp. NEVER. Having players play autoconverts in mixed mapsets with mania diffs in it is just sad.
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu
i would copy what i said again

'the autoconvert maps are still osu! mania mapset itself. they still follow music and has pattern.

i know, the patterns are kinda terrible. i still understand it a lot since i am a mapper and player.'

to be honest, some of mania specific maps are even worse than autoconverts lol

pp is follows star rating of mapset difficulty rather than mapset quality itself.

then autoconverts are still need to give pp for consistency until star rating system changes

and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd include horrible mania specific mapset too
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

_S u w a k o_ wrote:

and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd
This is exactly what I mean. Also even most horrible mania mapset is still better than best autoconvert, just because someone put his effort in it. Saying that autoconvert is better than even worst mapper's creation is demotivating imo. Something along "why would I even want to try mapping when osu can generate something that pepole will like more than my maps". We shouldn't be saying that.
Nanatsu
1,153 posts
Joined June 2013
Nanatsu

-Kamikaze- wrote:

_S u w a k o_ wrote:

and remember top rankers are don't like to play them too xd
This is exactly what I mean. Also even most horrible mania mapset is still better than best autoconvert, just because someone put his effort in it. Saying that autoconvert is better than even worst mapper's creation is demotivating imo. Something along "why would I even want to try mapping when osu can generate something that pepole will like more than my maps". We shouldn't be saying that.

don't know.. then you should think effort of mania autoconvert pattern code maker too xd

have you imagine how many players who spent time to autoconvert for some pp will be fucked up? it's not even kinda tag4 problem.

remember why many ppl use pp farming word. especially 'farming'. this is totally reflects they playing for pp rather than for fun lol
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Eeh, pretty sure autoconverts were just implemented because there were hardly any mania-specific mapsets at the time, and they had to offer something to play from what already existed. I firmly believe this is no longer needed. We're also not sacrificing whoever has coded the autoconverts generator work as we do not want to remove the autoconverts but instead make them unranked. People could still play them if they feel like it.
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