The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)
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There's not very many songs that can allow for something crazy to map (at least in mania). They do exist though, but good luck finding them lolBobbias wrote:
The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
pretty sure a lot of BMS stuff technically allows crazy stuff to be mapped, even without looking at how original charts are done. Some "epic musics" (heavy orchestral stuff, such as two steps from hell tracks) can make pretty damn awesome LN charts as well.
Yes, and I'm all for in people to go for it.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.
It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.
It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
I have a new idea for this
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
don't bother, nobody is looking here
Well at least there have been 3 now 
tbh i like that idea baraatje
tbh i like that idea baraatje
*waves hand*
Kinda sad that Mania scoring is still broken 
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
That was brought up and discussed 5 or 6 months ago and look at amount of stuff changed.laishiou wrote:
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
I don't know why this thread still exists
Performance points don't fit in vsrg. It should be something like dan courses in lr2. It would be more precise and quite easy to implement
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Doesn't matter how long o!m's been out, peppy wouldn't change it anyway. :/PyaKura wrote:
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Honestly, PP isn't the worst way to rank players... Imagine how dumb ranks would be if they relied on "ranked score" instead of PP (oh wait, they did years ago, and it was awful).
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
If pp (or rank score, or any other value used for rank) went up noticeably whether or not you did well, then lowdiff farming wouldn't be avoided (unless the scaling from difficulty increases extremely fast with difficulty, for example, the easiest map in the game gives 1 point, a mid-tier map gives 10^35 points, and a top-tier map gives 10^45 points). The purpose of the decrease of pp gain rate from plays is limiting the amount of pp obtained from playing many maps of similar difficulty without increasing the difficulty over time. If the difficulty calculation of the pp system is accurate, then players will keep getting pp as long as they increase the difficulty (or performance) of the maps they play (because of that, a good difficulty calculator for osu!mania maps is very important for making the pp system better).Tear wrote:
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
Looking at beatmap leaderboards of hard maps can give you an idea of who are the best players in the game, but you can't use that method to know the skill ranking of players that aren't as good as those top players (a well designed pp system should be able to give a good idea of that).
There's one very simple change that would makes all modes of osu fun, addictive and still rewarding:
Disable pp weighting.
Let it accumulate as you play. Even if you didn't do your best, you still get a few points. Unlike score, pp goes up exponentially so lowdiff farming would be severely reduced.
"But I can just play all the easies in the game for #1!" And pros can play all the insanes for #1, what's your point?
Any attempt to make an objective skill rating is doomed to fail, so why not make the game fun instead? Note that pp without weighting is identical to DJ Points in LR2 and IIDX. Also note that my solution does not render Tom's work obsolete at all, pp as a measure of a score's worth is still used to reward skill and make you go up faster than playing easier stuff.
Disable pp weighting.
Let it accumulate as you play. Even if you didn't do your best, you still get a few points. Unlike score, pp goes up exponentially so lowdiff farming would be severely reduced.
"But I can just play all the easies in the game for #1!" And pros can play all the insanes for #1, what's your point?
Any attempt to make an objective skill rating is doomed to fail, so why not make the game fun instead? Note that pp without weighting is identical to DJ Points in LR2 and IIDX. Also note that my solution does not render Tom's work obsolete at all, pp as a measure of a score's worth is still used to reward skill and make you go up faster than playing easier stuff.
Tear, that's just plain wrong. You want everyone to play tons of autoconverts to get their score up? That's going back to ppv1, which as we know sucked dicks. Current pp system is okay-ish, if we'd get some attention and some fixes to formula, we'd have a realy good system. But oh,well.
Don't we all agree that autoconverts should be unranked, lol
Unrank autoconverts and bam, current system is 2 times better. Also, you should know by now that no one is going to change anything
As frustrating as it is, I actually like the weighting on PP. It ensures that you don't have inflation on PP as players play more and more songs, making the ranking system much more stable, which is a major requirement for any half-decent ranking system.
One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Can't say I disagree with that. At least I can say I tried.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Okay, so far, in here, I've heard a lot of whining, and not really a lot of meat for suggesting.
Second, assuming that there's mania-specific maps, removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality. "OH LOOK EVERYONE, LET'S MURDER THE SAME TWENTY SONGS!" isn't something I really relish sitting behind, no offense intended.
osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun. Taiko's singled out, and every attempt I make to play that mode casually ends either in frustration, disappointment, or otherwise feeling inept - the casuals are kinda singled out.
Now then, onto my ideas (note, they're guesses, I don't know what the actual algorithm entails):
1) Develop a formula for average density, and pace - to factor into the possible "stars" (let's face it, having "slow parts" will make a difference no matter what, "skipping" them requires database/resubmitting tweaks that I don't think the dev team wants to really do). ie. [*] = note density x (bpm/120)
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
3) (may also be under 'gameplay', and since I don't know the origin of osu!mania, this can be ignored) Alter how 'spinners' function (perhaps similar to Taiko, but limited to just the 4K bindings for spinner input)? I notice that in really spinner-happy maps, they turn sad-easy.
...And I went braindead. Oh well, current base is good.
bluh bluh ban all autoconvertsFirst, what ARE autoconverts? I'm not a "mania" purist - I'm casual as crap, I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal.
Second, assuming that there's mania-specific maps, removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality. "OH LOOK EVERYONE, LET'S MURDER THE SAME TWENTY SONGS!" isn't something I really relish sitting behind, no offense intended.
osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun. Taiko's singled out, and every attempt I make to play that mode casually ends either in frustration, disappointment, or otherwise feeling inept - the casuals are kinda singled out.
rank _k scores separatelyHow about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.
Now then, onto my ideas (note, they're guesses, I don't know what the actual algorithm entails):
1) Develop a formula for average density, and pace - to factor into the possible "stars" (let's face it, having "slow parts" will make a difference no matter what, "skipping" them requires database/resubmitting tweaks that I don't think the dev team wants to really do). ie. [*] = note density x (bpm/120)
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
3) (may also be under 'gameplay', and since I don't know the origin of osu!mania, this can be ignored) Alter how 'spinners' function (perhaps similar to Taiko, but limited to just the 4K bindings for spinner input)? I notice that in really spinner-happy maps, they turn sad-easy.
...And I went braindead. Oh well, current base is good.
Why are you talking about pp's if you're playing casually ? The pp system - as half-arsed as it is - is a competitive element in the game. If you're playing casually nothing prevents you from playing autoconverts for fun. By the way, we are talking about unranking the autoconverts so they don't give any pp at all, not straight out remove them.Omio9999 wrote:
I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal. Removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality.osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun.
Following what I said previously, you can only apply nK-mods to autoconverts. Mania-specific maps are not affected by those mods. (Not to say pretty much everyone farms on mania-specific maps since they usually give way more pp's).Omio9999 wrote:
rank _k scores separatelyHow about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.
If your map list is mostly, if not entirely made out of autoconverts, then it's completely normal. They are usually far easier than mania-specific maps (or retardedly hard for a few of them). There is currently only one mania-specific ranked map rated over 7 stars which would Imperishable Night 2006, and a few maps over or around 6 stars (off the top of my head, Akasha, Intersect Thunderbolt, Shuffle Heaven, Zirkfied...). There are loads of 5 stars maps as well.Omio9999 wrote:
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
Anyway, I don't want to offend you but it seems your current o!m experience was mostly based around autoconverts. FYI, autoconverts as you might have guessed, are automatically converted by the game from osu!standard maps. They're okayish for first-timers, but past that point everyone is better off playing mania-specific because of the way they are structured mapping-wise. You may not see what I'm talking about atm but I can assure you that autoconverts feel REALLY WRONG compared to mania-specific maps (pitch relevancy, layering, SVs... autoconverts fail at all of that and more).
I didn't bother replying to your entire post because your view on the whole thing is uuuh... out of place I guess, due to your lack of experience, and thus so are your statements.
That said, the only real downside for mania-specific maps is that the mappool is tiny compared to osu!std, but there are enough ranked maps and tons of unranked which keep the mode alive and fun for most players.
I suggest you play some more o!m on mania-specific maps to give you a better idea of the current situation. Have fun
On the other hand, everyone receives the same incentive, so "zero out".Bobbias wrote:
One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
I admit I also spam the song to get a lucky personal best, but its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
It is practice, but not all practice is equal. Spamming is practice on the specifics of that particular map, not on maps as a whole, so it will not help you learn as quickly for other maps as randomized practice does. It can help if that map contains specific patterns you have trouble with, but it still results in slower general skill improvement. Especially if it's grinding for SS scores. All that does is make you marginally more consistent on easy songs. In the 3 months I focused on that kind of improvement in stepmania I found that I actually got worse at harder maps because of lack of practice on them.
Ideally though I'd prefer the system to track every score a player makes, so it can see how consistent a player is.
Ideally though I'd prefer the system to track every score a player makes, so it can see how consistent a player is.
you can't ask consistency in players because the next day they could be drunk while playing. or ate a lot of carbo and meat. or had an injury. or anything.
heck I'd even wager that a change in room temperature affects the player's stamina. most people I know irl would feel their wrist/hands like "frozen" when its cold or getting hit by your standard electric fan.
heck I'd even wager that a change in room temperature affects the player's stamina. most people I know irl would feel their wrist/hands like "frozen" when its cold or getting hit by your standard electric fan.
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)kidlat020 wrote:
its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
We were talking about spam playing the same song over and over, not anmitsu/spamming the keys.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)kidlat020 wrote:
its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
And yeah, I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.
I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.that only means that's your real play.
You don't make sense :s
that 5% increase in a single day wasn't luck. that was his true ability [at that day].
this had always been a problem in statistical data. flip a coin 100 times. same principle.
this had always been a problem in statistical data. flip a coin 100 times. same principle.
I don't get'cha, most of my top pp scores are pure luck with spamming and I can't get remotely close to beating them (with exception of Utakata, but I've played it like 100 times)
This is exactly what I was talking about. Random lucky scores happen. I've had scores that took 9 months before I could beat them because of that. If you spam play songs, you have an advantage because you can play each song until you get a lucky score, then more of your top scores are likely to be lucky scores.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I don't get'cha, most of my top pp scores are pure luck with spamming and I can't get remotely close to beating them (with exception of Utakata, but I've played it like 100 times)
I've had scores that took 9 months before I could beat them because of that.you already improved.
I don't consider those lucky scores as my real level.
Taking 9 months to catch up to a lucky spammed score isn't really improvement following your logic.
I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
To be honest, if it wasn't for kind-of broken o!m mechanics and my attitude of clearing hard stuff>getting good accuracy, it would probably be easier for me to do so. Still, lucky scores happen and it's not easy to beat them.Tidek wrote:
I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
Not everyone learns at the same pace. I've been playing for over a decade, and there are plenty of players with far less time who are far better than me. So just because you can beat your old scores in some amount of time doesn't mean anything for anyone else.Tidek wrote:
I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
it doesn't disprove anything either. because, records say that you've improved even though you yourself don't feel it is so.
even if its a lucky run.
even if its a lucky run.
"I did a fluke 700k run on that map and I won't be able to beat it in 3 months, but I've improved"
So you're saying that lucky run shows our true skill and then we go backwards?
Well in o!m lucky spams don't show ANYTHING. You can literally spam a map to 700k without even looking. If you call that an improvement, then I'm outta here.
So you're saying that lucky run shows our true skill and then we go backwards?
"I've run 100m in 11 seconds once, but now I'm running it in 15 seconds. Still, I'm an olympic class runner."kidlat020 wrote:
it doesn't disprove anything either. because, records say that you've improved even though you yourself don't feel it is so.
Well in o!m lucky spams don't show ANYTHING. You can literally spam a map to 700k without even looking. If you call that an improvement, then I'm outta here.
"I've run 100m in 11 seconds once, but now I'm running it in 15 seconds. Still, I'm an olympic class runner."yeah sure. who's to prove (or disprove) that said athlete ate too much sugar or carbs the next day that would interfere with his performance?
or that he wasn't really "lucky" but actually in top shape (correct sugar intake and carbs)?
this doesn't apply to mania only. even std and taiko would.
seriously, if you guys think practicing is the only factor playing here, then I'm outta here.
good emotional and physical health plays an important role in anything, but for something like osu, i dont see how anything beyond keeping away from harmful illegal drugs and eating/sleeping right would affect your performance positively [aside from practicing].
I'm overweight (despite being 3k rank) so I'd know that even the smallest excess of fat in my fingers is interfering with my hitting the keys.
anything that's double note hit is my greatest enemy. jackhammers are my death.
#healthissues
anything that's double note hit is my greatest enemy. jackhammers are my death.
#healthissues
Overall health will certainly help. It's well known that a healthy body will have a positive effect on the brain, and that things like eating breakfast can have a positive effect on outcomes later that day. However, I have a feeling that these factors are very small, and have more of a cumulative effect than any immediate effect on any specific day.
I currently have a score on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/239943 which is 100k higher than my other scores (roughly 9% accuracy above my average score). It will likely take me months before any one of my average scores will match that level. It's certainly possible that I could beat that score next time I play that map, but the chances are extremely small.
Unless you're entozer, everyone finds jackhammers hard.
I currently have a score on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/239943 which is 100k higher than my other scores (roughly 9% accuracy above my average score). It will likely take me months before any one of my average scores will match that level. It's certainly possible that I could beat that score next time I play that map, but the chances are extremely small.
Unless you're entozer, everyone finds jackhammers hard.
*Cough Jxyden 2000 note per minute 1/8 + 1/16 jack master (song is plasma strike btw, its an Ftb chart/map)
Seriously though practice is still what matters most. What dictates the skill improvement rate of a player depends in the type of charts he plays (pattern specific, ranked, or comfort zone stuff) + (or times, its up to the reader) his actual talent or learning speed.
And about best plays, they DO NOT always (sightreads taken into consideration) show a player's actual skill level. It just shows his potential and that improvement is possible.
Overall body condition does help. Boredom, sleepiness, hunger, weak body, and any oher impediment does affect a players gameplay. The magnitude varies from player to player. Same goes for positive conditions.
Seriously though practice is still what matters most. What dictates the skill improvement rate of a player depends in the type of charts he plays (pattern specific, ranked, or comfort zone stuff) + (or times, its up to the reader) his actual talent or learning speed.
And about best plays, they DO NOT always (sightreads taken into consideration) show a player's actual skill level. It just shows his potential and that improvement is possible.
Overall body condition does help. Boredom, sleepiness, hunger, weak body, and any oher impediment does affect a players gameplay. The magnitude varies from player to player. Same goes for positive conditions.
Pls fix this!This map gives more pp with 8k mod then the original one on 7k 8k-> http://puu.sh/enkVN/ba74a51de6.png ( pp amount http://puu.sh/enlmH/0d4700d736.png ) 7k -> http://puu.sh/enkYj/f12e732f9f.png ( pp amount http://puu.sh/enlzN/40a08c1f90.png )
^ Is that a bug?
If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable
If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable
If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
nope it isnt this map on 8k has 6,XX* and on 7k it has 4,XX* and the pp ranking depends on how much * the map has so the 8k version is obviously more pp worth then the 7k versionTristan97 wrote:
^ Is that a bug?
If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable
If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
Pipe Dream's 8K autoconvert is rated a lot higher than the 7k because it has this
not really a bug, but the way hitsounds are converted
not really a bug, but the way hitsounds are converted
I get that, it's just that if Pipe Dream's 7k 4.21 difficulty should be treated as a separate map from the 8k 6.xx star difficulty. None of this 'you'll get however many pp the score you just got multiplied by 0.90 would have been worth on the 7k chart' for somebody that manages the scratches amazingly and gets an S on the 8k map.
(If they are going to worth pp)
(If they are going to worth pp)
but how should some1 with nearly 1kk go for the 8k version? u know the max you can get is 900kTristan97 wrote:
I get that, it's just that if Pipe Dream's 7k 4.21 difficulty should be treated as a separate map from the 8k 6.xx star difficulty. None of this 'you'll get however many pp the score you just got multiplied by 0.90 would have been worth on the 7k chart' for somebody that manages the scratches amazingly and gets an S on the 8k map.
(If they are going to worth pp)
^That's my point. If getting a perfect score on the 'original autoconverted difficulty' of 7 keys granted full pp, then why shouldn't getting straight 320s be worth the full pp of the 8k difficulty? Just because it's not the 'naturally converted number of keys'?
They are autoconverts, there shouldn't be such a discrepancy.
They are autoconverts, there shouldn't be such a discrepancy.
They are autoconverts, they shouldn't give ANY pp
/thread
/thread
I considered saying this earlier. Then I realized it's not gonna change anything anyway. Common sense has lost this round.-Kamikaze- wrote:
They are autoconverts, they shouldn't give ANY pp
/thread
Well it's been said a lot of times before, so I just repeat it
I mean, as the mania community increases, we could see if eventually the BATs that are mania playres would make a case for making autoconverts not worth pp.
But there a a lot of things I think the osu!mania system could do to improve. I know this is the right place and it won't happen until we act, but for now, I feel as if waiting for the new keymodes to settle in is the best way to allow developments for the mode in general progress.
In the mean while, people should just continue to play the mode and map more ETdifficultiesspreads.
But there a a lot of things I think the osu!mania system could do to improve. I know this is the right place and it won't happen until we act, but for now, I feel as if waiting for the new keymodes to settle in is the best way to allow developments for the mode in general progress.
In the mean while, people should just continue to play the mode and map more ET
1) People ARE mapping ET spreads
2) Changes in PP system are inevitable and actually being worked on atm
3) We shouldn't have autoconverts giving pp at ANY stage of development
2) Changes in PP system are inevitable and actually being worked on atm
3) We shouldn't have autoconverts giving pp at ANY stage of development
Topic Starter
Per-mod highscores and thus pp are going to come. In fact they're already implemented and will be enabled as soon as the server is ready.
Thanks for bothering to respond Tom94. So does that mean that ET players can have both the Identity Part 4 non-mod 7k map and the Identity Part 4 modded 8k map show in their top ranks, each earning separate pp?
Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
Topic Starter
The original intention is to only allow each difficulty to only give pp once - in that case for the score giving the most. I can see why it might be more desirable to allow multiple pp gains from the same map due to different keymods basically being different maps. Such an exception could possibly be made.Tristan97 wrote:
Thanks for bothering to respond Tom94. So does that mean that ET players can have both the Identity Part 4 non-mod 7k map and the Identity Part 4 modded 8k map show in their top ranks, each earning separate pp?
Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
I'd say DT deserves to be separate more than xk mods on autoconverts.Blocko wrote:
What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
I would agree with thisBobbias wrote:
I'd say DT deserves to be separate more than xk mods on autoconverts.
What about HR?
I suppose HR might also deserve it... Although I'd say less than DT. With HR, if you're capable of getting a good score (let's say 98-100%) on something, it's not going to be that much harder. The HP drain increase is nearly meaningless at that point, and the OD increase likely won't make a very large impact on your accuracy, although it will at least have more of an effect than the increased HP drain.Tidek wrote:
What about HR?
Topic Starter
DT would start giving a pp bonus again, yes.Staiain wrote:
So this means the return of DT + pp then ?
No. It's the same map, just faster. Of course both your DT and nomod scores would be stored, but you couldn't get pp for nomod AND for DT at the same time. You'd only get pp for whichever of the 2 scores gives more pp. Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.Blocko wrote:
What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
Keymods are the only ones with which you will possibly be able to get pp multiple times from the same map.
Does this imply that things like country ranking and global ranking are going to decrease in relevancy due to the fact that some players will only play maps on dt, making the score they receive not reflective of the no-mod score? Could this be solved by changing the ranking system to going by pp earned (or creating an entirely new ranking for supporters or similar)?
I imagine this will be too complicated to implement, so nah.Tristan97 wrote:
Does this imply that things like country ranking and global ranking are going to decrease in relevancy due to the fact that some players will only play maps on dt, making the score they receive not reflective of the no-mod score? Could this be solved by changing the ranking system to going by pp earned (or creating an entirely new ranking for supporters or similar)?
btw we could totally have hr back as ranked mod
The main problem is that no1 will care about scoreboard on map when it will be implement. (unless DT will increase max possible points to for example 1,12mln but thats not going to happen i guess)
You can just get a nomod highscore for places and dt score for pp, I see no problem here.
Also nobody really cares about scoreboard if they farm pp, it's just an addition
Also nobody really cares about scoreboard if they farm pp, it's just an addition
Looks like not in this caseJimJoy wrote:
but isnt pp calculated only for passes with highest score?
Also, I'd like to ask if there is any ETA about the new DT pp calculations going liveTom94 wrote:
Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.
Requesting additional clarification for the first part of this post: I understand the part about all scores getting stored and the highest PP score of them count, but are the leaderboards exclusive from the performance point calculation?Tom94 wrote:
Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.
Keymods are the only ones with which you will possibly be able to get pp multiple times from the same map.
What I mean is this: if someone were to get 1000 MAX and 20 300s on a song and have that score recorded, and then played the same song and got 980 MAX and 40 300s (improbable but possible on easier songs), would the first score be the one to show up on the leaderboards since it is a higher score?
As an aside, I'm slowly getting back into osu! again and I apologize if this question comes across as stupid.
I'm actually curious if a 90 - 95 % score on DT will be worth more than 98 - 100% score nomod PP wise, if it is imagine the potential to start DT'ing 4 - 5 star maps 
@Halogen
This will basically mean that if you have that 1000xMAX 20x300 score on leaderboards and let's say it gives 150pp, and then you'll score 950xMAX 70x300 score with DT that would give 200 pp, the first score is counted towards your positions on map ranking (since it has higher score) and second one is counted towards your pp (since it gives more)
Hope that explains it D:
This will basically mean that if you have that 1000xMAX 20x300 score on leaderboards and let's say it gives 150pp, and then you'll score 950xMAX 70x300 score with DT that would give 200 pp, the first score is counted towards your positions on map ranking (since it has higher score) and second one is counted towards your pp (since it gives more)
Hope that explains it D:
sorry for almost double posting but, will the PP gain scale with the star diffuculty, like if a map is 6* on DT, will it give the same amount as a 6* map nomod?
This is the case for other modes I think, so I'd assume so.Staiain wrote:
sorry for almost double posting but, will the PP gain scale with the star diffuculty, like if a map is 6* on DT, will it give the same amount as a 6* map nomod?
That does, thanks!-Kamikaze- wrote:
@Halogen
This will basically mean that if you have that 1000xMAX 20x300 score on leaderboards and let's say it gives 150pp, and then you'll score 950xMAX 70x300 score with DT that would give 200 pp, the first score is counted towards your positions on map ranking (since it has higher score) and second one is counted towards your pp (since it gives more)
Hope that explains it D:
Not sure if this has already been explained but here goes:
So i download a ranked beatmap and first play ever get 57pp weighted at 24%, it says i should get 14pp, which is fair enough. I look and i only have 1pp added to my total, regardless of how long i wait for it to update. Can someone explain why this is?
So i download a ranked beatmap and first play ever get 57pp weighted at 24%, it says i should get 14pp, which is fair enough. I look and i only have 1pp added to my total, regardless of how long i wait for it to update. Can someone explain why this is?
When you got that score with 57pp, all scores you have got that are worth less than 57pp reduced their weighting in 5% (reducing the amount of pp they give).SolidGuy wrote:
Not sure if this has already been explained but here goes:
So i download a ranked beatmap and first play ever get 57pp weighted at 24%, it says i should get 14pp, which is fair enough. I look and i only have 1pp added to my total, regardless of how long i wait for it to update. Can someone explain why this is?
So I know this may have already been discussed to an extent, but if the different keymodes are suppossed to be treated as different modes, then why are there not separate rankings for each keymode? That would help solve a lot of discrepancies with rankings and such.
The hype continues, waiting for server implementation :')
PLZ INCLUDE RANDOM MODE RANK SCORE TOO
How would you make it work with everyone playing the same map with different patterns everytime ? :c_S u w a k o_ wrote:
PLZ INCLUDE RANDOM MODE RANK SCORE TOO
I'm against random being ranked, because it messes up mapper's work too much. It changes patterns that are supossed to be tricky into just random placed which makes it easier (not in all cases obv). I would love to see mirror mod ranked though, it would be perfect for 2p players and on one-hand bias maps
I've wondered this myself. It seems like there's still some merit in valuing higher keymodes, but I don't understand why.Tristan97 wrote:
So I know this may have already been discussed to an extent, but if the different keymodes are suppossed to be treated as different modes, then why are there not separate rankings for each keymode? That would help solve a lot of discrepancies with rankings and such.
Random is something that absolutely should never be ranked. Pattern deviations can cause one person's attempt at a map to be easier than someone else's. That kind of deviation has no place in ranking._S u w a k o_ wrote:
PLZ INCLUDE RANDOM MODE RANK SCORE TOO
if u guys thinks about fair, i think mirror mode would be fit and reasonable.
and the mirror is exist in hardrock mode. ( even they don't use it for mirror pattern )
and the mirror is exist in hardrock mode. ( even they don't use it for mirror pattern )
Umm... Saw this thread casually.
I don't know much about other things but my opinion is that autoconvert must be unrankable.
As a player for years I can say that at least 95% autoconvert is not qualifyied to be rankable.
And about score,I think it's necessary to intensify the condition of combo.I met uncountable times
that situations like I was 96% 1 miss being beaten by 98% 30miss. It's just ridiculous.
Thanks for reading ._.
I don't know much about other things but my opinion is that autoconvert must be unrankable.
As a player for years I can say that at least 95% autoconvert is not qualifyied to be rankable.
And about score,I think it's necessary to intensify the condition of combo.I met uncountable times
that situations like I was 96% 1 miss being beaten by 98% 30miss. It's just ridiculous.
Thanks for reading ._.
Scoring system is set in stone now, there's no way they're gonna change it. As for autoconverts this has been said and repeated again and again but they somehow want to keep them ranked >.>
The only legitimate type of "random" mod should be mirror in my opinion, as the hand bias levels would be the same, just switched onto different hands. Using any other deviation of patterns would make the file's patterns too different from the original to really be compared legitimately. Little off-topic, but why isn't there a Mirror option for o!m anyway? Feels a little odd to have a random mod but not mirror.
also DT PP hype
also DT PP hype
Staiain wrote:
Any news on the DT PP front?