Drezi wrote:
Riince you simply pick individual examples that seem to justify your points and you fail to see the system and the concept as a whole.
Drezi wrote:
you seem to fail at basic concepts of logic, really.
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Imagine Image Material being a 195bpm map, and that all HT scores on said map are with nomod, and all nomod plays on said map are DT scores.
Would you still have a problem with it?
Would you still have a problem with it?
whether the map is harder or not is irrelevant in that example, the score is just more impressive so should be worth more. Neither the DT or the modless on such maps are going anywhere near the level of play on maps where HT is an issue, so even drawing the comparison is sillysilmarilen wrote:
if you cant even beat a score worth 0.3x the nomod score then you suck and arent competing at the top anyway.
and no, just because you dont have the patience to wait for a hitcircle to close doesnt mean the map is harder on nomod.
The map would then become a part of the minority of maps where DT being underweighted is a problem, and become another reason to buff DT's worth a bit.CXu wrote:
Imagine Image Material being a 195bpm map, and that all HT scores on said map are with nomod, and all nomod plays on said map are DT scores.
Would you still have a problem with it?
Especially since people FCing 292 bpm streams is so much more impressive than 195 that I don't even think a modless SS should come near a 15 miss C.
the thing is, you're agreeing that there is a problem with DT compared to nomod, which is the same problem as nomod compared to HT.
but you want to completely remove HT from scores compared to only giving DT a buff in score.
removing HT from score is the same as removing nomod from score if you look at the DT vs nomod comparison.
there is certainly a problem with HT pushing nomod out of top50, but if you're going to use that as an excuse to remove HT from scores, then you need to remove nomod from scores for the same reason.
removing HT from scores is just a bad idea exactly because of that.
but you want to completely remove HT from scores compared to only giving DT a buff in score.
removing HT from score is the same as removing nomod from score if you look at the DT vs nomod comparison.
there is certainly a problem with HT pushing nomod out of top50, but if you're going to use that as an excuse to remove HT from scores, then you need to remove nomod from scores for the same reason.
removing HT from scores is just a bad idea exactly because of that.
The problem is bigger because it affects a larger percentage of maps where the mod is relevant, so requires a bigger fix
DT requires a smaller fix because the problem isnt affecting as large of a percentage of the maps the mod is relevant
thats all im saying
DT requires a smaller fix because the problem isnt affecting as large of a percentage of the maps the mod is relevant
thats all im saying
it's not fixing the problem, it's sweeping half of it under the rug, just because it's not as prelevant since hardly anyone plays HT and there aren't many ranked maps that people can't FC nomod at least.
if you take out the HT scores and said score is on the top 50 for a map where most likely all the best players are competing on because its a hard ranked map, then yeah, they by definition are competing, whether some guy somes over and beats his score by fcing a map where streams go from being doable properly by a few dozen people, to being doable by thousands and thousands of people, then that's ruining the competition.silmarilen wrote:
if you cant even beat a score worth 0.3x the nomod score then you suck and arent competing at the top anyway.
same can be said for nomod on EVERY map, that can be passed on DT, but people can't FC with it.
except those nomod scores come with 1.0 against 1.12, unlike 0.3 of HT vs 1.0.......
except those nomod scores come with 1.0 against 1.12, unlike 0.3 of HT vs 1.0.......
yeah, and those maps where people are getting good DT scores that arent getting on the scoreboard when they should be are grounds for a change to DT, yet its the minority of maps where the mod is applicable, so changing the mod massively and completely like what should happen to HT is less justified.Drezi wrote:
same can be said for nomod on EVERY map, that can be passed on DT, but people can't FC with it.
not sure exactly what should happen to DT, but i know what should happen to HT
read it again, EVERY MAP you know what that means? YEAH IT'S A LOT OF MAPS THAT CAN BE PASSED BUT NOT FC-D WITH DT.Drezi wrote:
same can be said for nomod on EVERY map, that can be passed on DT, but people can't FC with it.
except those nomod scores come with 1.0 against 1.12, unlike 0.3 of HT vs 1.0.......
and the bolded part too I edited that in but it's on the last page.
There's more maps that can be FC'd with DT than can't be FC'd with DT. But let's assume that those maps dont exist, koigokoro and Baby Sweet Berry Love TV Size and every single map between 1-5 stars no longer exist, the mod DT is only applicable on maps where it can be passed but not FC'd. Now, DT is in a similar position to HT, but in reverse, but nomod cant be unranked because its not a mod. Well, buff DT to hell and back to the point where no modless score can ever hope to come close to a DT score. IF this were the case, there would have to be a change that massive.
But it's not the case, however it is great anecdote for how problematic HT is in all cases where it is relevant. I suppose making HT worth as little as DT would have to be worth but in reverse would do just as well as making the mod unranked.
0.03x, anyone?
But it's not the case, however it is great anecdote for how problematic HT is in all cases where it is relevant. I suppose making HT worth as little as DT would have to be worth but in reverse would do just as well as making the mod unranked.
0.03x, anyone?
There are a lot more songs that can't be FC-d with DT, than ones that can't be FC-d with nomod OBVIOUSLY.
And also this doesn't only effect maps that can't be FC-d with DT by anyone, the problem is present for every map, it simply doesn't affect global scoreboards when we have 50 DT FCs, only country/friend scoreboards.
Score is just bad as it is, that's why we use PP, that's why t/220119 this makes perfect sense, and needs to happen. Wait you were against that too? Oh well..
And also this doesn't only effect maps that can't be FC-d with DT by anyone, the problem is present for every map, it simply doesn't affect global scoreboards when we have 50 DT FCs, only country/friend scoreboards.
Score is just bad as it is, that's why we use PP, that's why t/220119 this makes perfect sense, and needs to happen. Wait you were against that too? Oh well..
This whole argument happened because people can't understand this.Riince wrote:
Because it's all relative
Topic Starter
Often the absolute values matter more than the relative ones.Tess wrote:
This whole argument happened because people can't understand this.Riince wrote:
Because it's all relative
That being said the only people negatively affected by the halftime thing are the ones who can't FC nomod. So please if you talk about relative numbers also include the literally millions of players who can't FC insanes with nomod and thus get beaten by halftime players. This is not a 5 out of 5 situation but a thousands out of thousands situation. It's not only absolutely larger than the DT vs nomod debate but also relatively larger. (Considering players who can't pass nomod as irrelevant to the nomod vs DT debate. Of course since they consequently also can't pass DT they might apply for that category as well in another interpretation of the problem, flipping the results again.)
The only reason you don't actually see the people being affected by this is that scoreboards only show the top50.
TL;DR: Riince is right in the fact that more people are affected by the halftime VS nomod story because they simply aren't as good players. I personally don't agree that halftime should be unranked though. The scoring system is at fault and itself should change rather than having to adapt other parts of the game to it.
Eh I agree with that last sentence, but how would you adapt the scoring system in a way that wouldn't piss more than half the game off, or that would still keep things somewhat similar to how they used to be? We all know that most players are hardly informed and can't handle an unexpected change like that.
Also aside from HT I wonder what others think of the scoring I proposed. I thought it was a pretty solid way of weighing one mod against the other.
Also aside from HT I wonder what others think of the scoring I proposed. I thought it was a pretty solid way of weighing one mod against the other.
Tess wrote:
Also aside from HT I wonder what others think of the scoring I proposed. I thought it was a pretty solid way of weighing one mod against the other.
Riince wrote:
Spun-out should be 1.0x because no real advantage to using it anyway. On easy maps you're penalized enough by the spin being abysmally slow, on harder maps no competent players have an issue with notes coming after spinners.
As a player that is forced to use Spun-Out due to a physical disability in the arm/hand i'm holding my tablet pen in preventing me from being able to even get 200 RPM on spinners as a rank 20k, i would love if Spun-Out didn't give me -5% pp on every score i ever get. It really hurts my top performances by alot. Not only that, using Spun-Out, i will never be able to get into top 50s on maps even if my Acc % happened to be better, as Spun-Out also gives -10% score reduction.Tess wrote:
SO should be 1.0x because what Riince said.
I know why spinners exist and i'm not saying there's anything wrong with them, but they don't have a rhythmical aspect to them and for me personally, it just feels wrong i am being punished for not being able to do them in a rhythm game.
If nothing else, it would at least be nice to see the penalty slightly reduced.There should be no pp/score penalty, spinners act as a break in the song, participation should be optional, but imo should stay optimal, i.e spun-out should still spin slow compared to players like it already does. People who want to min-max their score should have the option, people who dont want the arrhythmic spinners that dont impact difficulty one way or the other should also have the option.
The downsides of spun-out that have already been mentioned are enough of a penalty already, not to mention since you aren't spinning, there's no way to make some sick 470 rpm drain-stalling spin at the end of shotgun senorita for example that saves a play.
The downsides of spun-out that have already been mentioned are enough of a penalty already, not to mention since you aren't spinning, there's no way to make some sick 470 rpm drain-stalling spin at the end of shotgun senorita for example that saves a play.
Dunno if that's been suggested already, but Iam not gonna read through 100+ pages.
Can we give FL some sort of lenght scaling?
I was kinda suprised that the FL score by rrtyui on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/541990?m=0 only gave 235pp, which is pretty much nothing.
I know that FL gives a big bonus on aim and that the map apparently isnt all that aim-y, but it is long and there is a shitload of things to remember, which makes it extremely difficult.
In general, more objects are obviously more difficult to remember. Easy/Normal would probably still give the usual FL pp, Hard a bit more, Insane and Extra would receive a bonus. Doesnt sound too bad to me.
Can we give FL some sort of lenght scaling?
I was kinda suprised that the FL score by rrtyui on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/541990?m=0 only gave 235pp, which is pretty much nothing.
I know that FL gives a big bonus on aim and that the map apparently isnt all that aim-y, but it is long and there is a shitload of things to remember, which makes it extremely difficult.
In general, more objects are obviously more difficult to remember. Easy/Normal would probably still give the usual FL pp, Hard a bit more, Insane and Extra would receive a bonus. Doesnt sound too bad to me.
The sliders are what makes that map difficult. I guess changing the way FL is calculated on sliders due to visibility would make sense, but even so, flashlight is mostly memorization, not physical skill. Don't take that the wrong way, all I am saying is that with enough time, any map that can be full-comboed can be done with flashlight. The buff it gives can't be too big imo.Yauxo wrote:
Dunno if that's been suggested already, but Iam not gonna read through 100+ pages.
Can we give FL some sort of lenght scaling?
I was kinda suprised that the FL score by rrtyui on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/541990?m=0 only gave 235pp, which is pretty much nothing.
I know that FL gives a big bonus on aim and that the map apparently isnt all that aim-y, but it is long and there is a shitload of things to remember, which makes it extremely difficult.
In general, more objects are obviously more difficult to remember. Easy/Normal would probably still give the usual FL pp, Hard a bit more, Insane and Extra would receive a bonus. Doesnt sound too bad to me.
do slider 100s really play that much of an impact such that they have a higher penalty than circle 100s even on higher-end accuracy? even though its a really small difference i found it a little weird :/
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/442221?m=0
ppdiff = 393.16 - 392.63 = 0.53handsome wrote:
do slider 100s really play that much of an impact such that they have a higher penalty than circle 100s even on higher-end accuracy? even though its a really small difference i found it a little weird :/
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/442221?m=0
combo ratio = 467 / 468 = 0.9979
if combo linearly gave pp from 0 to max then this would give 393.16 * 0.9979 = 392.33
393.16 - 392.33 = 0.83
but ppdiff is only 0.53 meaning that (assuming linear combo scaling) it scales at 0.53 / 0.83 = 64% which is within the range of 45-65% combo scaling displayed in this thread: (http://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/comment ... combo_and/)
pretty sure nothing changes just because it's a slider 100 and that everything is working as intended
The fact that memorizing a map with FL makes it FCable doesn't mean FL should be rewarded less, especially considering that, with the amount of retries put into FL, it wouldn't be so hard to get a high acc HR FC on a map you previously couldn't pass either. What Yauxo said is legit; the longer a map is, the harder it is to FC with FL, regardless of memorization or not. Even if you have the map memorized, you gotta keep in account that you have to aim at nothing, and the longer you have to do that the higher your chances of missing are.Bauxe wrote:
The sliders are what makes that map difficult. I guess changing the way FL is calculated on sliders due to visibility would make sense, but even so, flashlight is mostly memorization, not physical skill. Don't take that the wrong way, all I am saying is that with enough time, any map that can be full-comboed can be done with flashlight. The buff it gives can't be too big imo.Yauxo wrote:
Dunno if that's been suggested already, but Iam not gonna read through 100+ pages.
Can we give FL some sort of lenght scaling?
I was kinda suprised that the FL score by rrtyui on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/541990?m=0 only gave 235pp, which is pretty much nothing.
I know that FL gives a big bonus on aim and that the map apparently isnt all that aim-y, but it is long and there is a shitload of things to remember, which makes it extremely difficult.
In general, more objects are obviously more difficult to remember. Easy/Normal would probably still give the usual FL pp, Hard a bit more, Insane and Extra would receive a bonus. Doesnt sound too bad to me.
There's a lot more to FL than just memorization, but sadly most players don't seem to agree.
I had an idea regarding more info porn. Is it viable to split pp rankings into 3 sub categories using the 3 weighted metrics (Aim, Speed, and Acc) for calculating pp? I know it'll put a little more load on the servers if we did this...
Let's say Player X is an HDHR player with 10209 pp and their sub categories consist of 1900 Aim, 1200 Speed, and 2200 Accuracy
And then there's Player Y that is an HDDT player with 10209 pp as well and their sub categories consist of 1900 Aim, 2200 Speed, and 1200 Accuracy
From this we can see that even tho Players X and Y are equal in pp, they have their own noticeable strengths and weaknesses.
Let's say Player X is an HDHR player with 10209 pp and their sub categories consist of 1900 Aim, 1200 Speed, and 2200 Accuracy
And then there's Player Y that is an HDDT player with 10209 pp as well and their sub categories consist of 1900 Aim, 2200 Speed, and 1200 Accuracy
From this we can see that even tho Players X and Y are equal in pp, they have their own noticeable strengths and weaknesses.
Pretty much what osutp.net did before it changed, though things would have to be adjusted for ppv2 of courseWoobowiz wrote:
I had an idea regarding more info porn. Is it viable to split pp rankings into 3 sub categories using the 3 weighted metrics (Aim, Speed, and Acc) for calculating pp? I know it'll put a little more load on the servers if we did this...
http://web.archive.org/web/201311051214 ... et/players
This would triple the load on the servers (ty based tom) and hence it's not viable to implement as of now.Woobowiz wrote:
I had an idea regarding more info porn. Is it viable to split pp rankings into 3 sub categories using the 3 weighted metrics (Aim, Speed, and Acc) for calculating pp? I know it'll put a little more load on the servers if we did this...
Let's say Player X is an HDHR player with 10209 pp and their sub categories consist of 1900 Aim, 1200 Speed, and 2200 Accuracy
And then there's Player Y that is an HDDT player with 10209 pp as well and their sub categories consist of 1900 Aim, 2200 Speed, and 1200 Accuracy
From this we can see that even tho Players X and Y are equal in pp, they have their own noticeable strengths and weaknesses.
I don't understand why Tom is so up in arms against how much PP World's End gives. It goes for over 6 minutes, has large jumps through the whole map, has high OD and spaced streams as well. It seems pretty logical that it gives the amount of PP that it does; it's not because long songs give too much PP, easy to read songs give too much PP. If it was a hard to read, it probably wouldn't give enough for the difficulty. Song length does not need a nerf, and neither do the common HR maps.
Also Tom mentioned that he want to make PP less combo based. IMO this is a radical change, I think it's fine as it is. Thoughts?
Also Tom mentioned that he want to make PP less combo based. IMO this is a radical change, I think it's fine as it is. Thoughts?
World's End is overrated, it gives way too much pp for how hard it actually is.
Seems to be the case, everyone who has HDHR'd it has it as their top play or close to it.GoldenWolf wrote:
World's End is overrated, it gives way too much pp for how hard it actually is.
yeah that's pretty obvious, but my point is that song length shouldn't be nerfed just because of World's End.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/136862B1rd wrote:
yeah that's pretty obvious, but my point is that song length shouldn't be nerfed just because of World's End.
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/133693
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/293193?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/447179?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/184308?m=0
Medium length songs are being grossly overrated too.
Summer time music gives up to 400pp and it's easier than a lot of 300pp maps.
I can understand that a higher combo gets rewarded with higher pp values since it is a matter of focus and consistency but why is it that 2 misses at the very end of the beginning right after/before a huge combo don't really matter while 1 miss at around 50% of the map denies you almost all pp?
Imho the system should still reward a high number of hit circles with high accuracy partially disregarding the max combo during a map. Maybe don't give as high rewards but at least like 70-80% of the pp. Currently a high combo with a worse acc (95%) is rewarded much higher than a low combo with high accuracy.
Imho the system should still reward a high number of hit circles with high accuracy partially disregarding the max combo during a map. Maybe don't give as high rewards but at least like 70-80% of the pp. Currently a high combo with a worse acc (95%) is rewarded much higher than a low combo with high accuracy.
This is mostly a flaw of scoring system instead of pp system... And keeping a large combo is way harder than getting 2 medium combos, especially saying from psychological way.Infevo wrote:
I can understand that a higher combo gets rewarded with higher pp values since it is a matter of focus and consistency but why is it that 2 misses at the very end of the beginning right after/before a huge combo don't really matter while 1 miss at around 50% of the map denies you almost all pp?
Imho the system should still reward a high number of hit circles with high accuracy partially disregarding the max combo during a map. Maybe don't give as high rewards but at least like 70-80% of the pp. Currently a high combo with a worse acc (95%) is rewarded much higher than a low combo with high accuracy.
It definitely is a flaw since people also lose rank.manjumochi wrote:
This is mostly a flaw of scoring system instead of pp system... And keeping a large combo is way harder than getting 2 medium combos, especially saying from psychological way.Infevo wrote:
I can understand that a higher combo gets rewarded with higher pp values since it is a matter of focus and consistency but why is it that 2 misses at the very end of the beginning right after/before a huge combo don't really matter while 1 miss at around 50% of the map denies you almost all pp?
Imho the system should still reward a high number of hit circles with high accuracy partially disregarding the max combo during a map. Maybe don't give as high rewards but at least like 70-80% of the pp. Currently a high combo with a worse acc (95%) is rewarded much higher than a low combo with high accuracy.
Keep also in mind this is supposed to be a rhythm game. The current system counters the rhythm aspect by rewarding a higher score a lot more than a more accurate and overall more consistent play. This might be just my personal opinion but I like to compare this with a musican who play a rather large and complex piece of composition. Now is he less of a musician if he fails _once_ during the middle of the piece instead of failing several times at the very end and the beginning? Cause this is how the current pp system works.
Also your argument is kinda invalid since tv sizes almost give the same amount of pp currently as a lot longer maps. But I understand what you mean.
Mostly tv sizes with same star rating with longer maps are harder, but longer maps are in general harder to make full combo. It's very hard to balance this (the same with mods). We have to remember that there are a lots of flaws in both score and pp system (and mostly they are connected), pp system is newer than score, so most current flaws in general comes from scoring.Infevo wrote:
It definitely is a flaw since people also lose rank.
Keep also in mind this is supposed to be a rhythm game. The current system counters the rhythm aspect by rewarding a higher score a lot more than a more accurate and overall more consistent play. This might be just my personal opinion but I like to compare this with a musican who play a rather large and complex piece of composition. Now is he less of a musician if he fails _once_ during the middle of the piece instead of failing several times at the very end and the beginning? Cause this is how the current pp system works.
Also your argument is kinda invalid since tv sizes almost give the same amount of pp currently as a lot longer maps. But I understand what you mean.
pp: [Tom94] Don't count tag beatmaps in pp calculations of standard mode.what
probably because people apparently abused the hell out of touchscreens on them (I saw someone whos #2 play was like 60pp with his #1 being a tag map with 400+pp)
I wouldn't really call that "abuse"
I would.
I lost pp due to the update and I still agree with the change because those maps were broken in terms of pp
Sucks for GN and Kuvster but this is probably how it should have been to begin with, it was bound to happen eventually.
I am somewhat surprised that Renai Circulation also got pp taken away from it but I would suppose that's more for completeness (so that people can't claim it's arbitrary) rather than because it's broken
Sucks for GN and Kuvster but this is probably how it should have been to begin with, it was bound to happen eventually.
I am somewhat surprised that Renai Circulation also got pp taken away from it but I would suppose that's more for completeness (so that people can't claim it's arbitrary) rather than because it's broken
I was wondering - to solve that issue where maps like Talent Shredder give like 160pp for an SS (among others) you could maybe change that "shortest possible distance between 2 notes" thing for sliders that are longer than 1/3 (so, 1/2 or longer), so that those sliders would have distance counted as if the sliderend were a regular hit circle with no slider leniency.
I'm not sure how great of an idea this is but I remember your reasoning for this somewhere was that you didn't want sliderstreams, or other patterns with short sliders at a distance from each other that are pretty damn easy to play, to be overrated. Even though this is a legit argument, slider streams really only happen at 1/4 sliders, so I figured that for any slider that's 1/2 or longer that could never possibly be an issue, and it would ramp up some of the really hard slider maps in terms of pp without overrating the easier sliderstream maps.
It's just a suggestion, but I think it'd be cool if we could focus on solving this issue. It's pretty ridiculous that Talent Shredder gives 160-170pp for a nomod SS while Coloring HDDT gives like 215 pp. It has HDDT SSes all over the leaderboards while Talent Shredder doesn't have a single nomods SS - the highest being 99.92% (1x100) at 159.86pp. If it gave at least 200-210pp for an SS that'd be a lot more fair than the way things are now, so, even if my idea isn't viable, maybe if we focused on finding a reasonable solution with multiple people we might get to something.
I'm not sure how great of an idea this is but I remember your reasoning for this somewhere was that you didn't want sliderstreams, or other patterns with short sliders at a distance from each other that are pretty damn easy to play, to be overrated. Even though this is a legit argument, slider streams really only happen at 1/4 sliders, so I figured that for any slider that's 1/2 or longer that could never possibly be an issue, and it would ramp up some of the really hard slider maps in terms of pp without overrating the easier sliderstream maps.
It's just a suggestion, but I think it'd be cool if we could focus on solving this issue. It's pretty ridiculous that Talent Shredder gives 160-170pp for a nomod SS while Coloring HDDT gives like 215 pp. It has HDDT SSes all over the leaderboards while Talent Shredder doesn't have a single nomods SS - the highest being 99.92% (1x100) at 159.86pp. If it gave at least 200-210pp for an SS that'd be a lot more fair than the way things are now, so, even if my idea isn't viable, maybe if we focused on finding a reasonable solution with multiple people we might get to something.
Aren't the sliderstreams in big black 1/2s? I suspect it'd get way overrated if this change was impkemented.
point is theres still slider leniency so it would be a bad change and overrate sliders. slider leniency is still there, if someone leaves that slider before the last tick it becomes a 100 not a combo break, and ppv2 still gives him the pp for the play except with a single 100 which it doesnt know where that 100 came from. this cant be implemented until theres more information available.Tess wrote:
those sliders would have distance counted as if the sliderend were a regular hit circle with no slider leniency.
basically you cant give people credit for hitting jumps that didnt get to.
I'm not even sure how exactly sliders are treated now. Like distance and time between the sliderhead and next note and minimum distance to complete slider is added to the jump? Or min distance to complete slider+distance from that point to next note?
Either way if it's merged into a single jump that is timed between sliderstart and the next note, it'd mean that sometimes the actual jump you have to do is faster, since when you don't have to move much due to leniency, you still have to stay there for half the duration (between sliderstart and next note) before you can move on to the next note, unless the direction of the slider and jump is not too different + distance is kinda even, or they're close enough so that it doesn't matter.
Also being too strict on leniency is like calculating jumps with the shortest possible distance between the very edges of circles, it's not realistic to play like that in practice. You don't wanna risk slider 100s or misses.
Such treatment of leniency is perfect when the path you'd take to play the sliders as singles falls within the sliderfollowcircle anyway, like plenty of big black sliders, but stuff like talent shredder is a different story.
Either way if it's merged into a single jump that is timed between sliderstart and the next note, it'd mean that sometimes the actual jump you have to do is faster, since when you don't have to move much due to leniency, you still have to stay there for half the duration (between sliderstart and next note) before you can move on to the next note, unless the direction of the slider and jump is not too different + distance is kinda even, or they're close enough so that it doesn't matter.
Also being too strict on leniency is like calculating jumps with the shortest possible distance between the very edges of circles, it's not realistic to play like that in practice. You don't wanna risk slider 100s or misses.
Such treatment of leniency is perfect when the path you'd take to play the sliders as singles falls within the sliderfollowcircle anyway, like plenty of big black sliders, but stuff like talent shredder is a different story.
So I heard certain maps don't grant pp anymore, and that's because someone or some people don't approve of a certain playstyle. Why isn't this strange?
Tom said that the game calculates the shortest possible route through sliders that the player can take. Obviously that isn't realistic and needs to be changed so sliders are properly weighed.Drezi wrote:
I'm not even sure how exactly sliders are treated now. Like distance and time between the sliderhead and next note and minimum distance to complete slider is added to the jump? Or min distance to complete slider+distance from that point to next note?
Either way if it's merged into a single jump that is timed between sliderstart and the next note, it'd mean that sometimes the actual jump you have to do is faster, since when you don't have to move much due to leniency, you still have to stay there for half the duration (between sliderstart and next note) before you can move on to the next note, unless the direction of the slider and jump is not too different + distance is kinda even, or they're close enough so that it doesn't matter.
Also being too strict on leniency is like calculating jumps with the shortest possible distance between the very edges of circles, it's not realistic to play like that in practice. You don't wanna risk slider 100s or misses.
Such treatment of leniency is perfect when the path you'd take to play the sliders as singles falls within the sliderfollowcircle anyway, like plenty of big black sliders, but stuff like talent shredder is a different story.
http://ask.fm/Tom94/answer/122374575566uberpancake wrote:
Aren't the sliderstreams in big black 1/2s? I suspect it'd get way overrated if this change was impkemented.
Also, I've been reading some things about per-mod highscores. Could anyone give me a summary or link on that? I'm curious.
Also I'm with b1rd here. I highly doubt that my suggestion would overrate longer sliders, but hey, I'm not a programmer or whatever.
Topic Starter
It's not like we (or I) disagree with that playstyle. Heck, I have scores on tag4 maps with touch myself. The reason it doesn't give pp is that it's inherently impossible to make a difficulty algorithm that works correctly with touch and cursor-based input at the same time.those wrote:
So I heard certain maps don't grant pp anymore, and that's because someone or some people don't approve of a certain playstyle. Why isn't this strange?
Jumps are trivial on touch while insanely hard cursor-based. That's a fact. Same with spaced streams being almost impossible using touch due to not being able to move the cursor while hovering. (That being said, theoretically when using some method that allows hovering during touch it should be superior to cursor-based input unconditionally.)
There are only 3 options. One of them being to rate touch plays differently than cursor plays. Which is impossible to do reliably, because we can't reliably detect input devices used. People can even switch them mid-play during pause. The other 2 options are
- Make large jumps give little pp for both cursor and touch plays, basically making it impossible to gain good pp while playing with a cursor and reducing pp to be speed/acc based.
- Remove the only maps (in the case of osu!, that's exactly 2!) where there are patterns which become problematic. Those patterns don't exist in the rest of osu! simply due to not being allowed by the ranking rules - fortunate coincidence.
Now lastly, why did all tag maps lose their pp rather than only the 2 problematic ones? The answer is being consistent. tag maps were never meant to be played by a single player and would have never passed the ranking rules - even back then - when being considered as single-player maps. This simply was a good opportunity to remove them from ranked play altogether. Scoreboards have been kept to let people keep the amazing scores they put tons of effort into and to keep the niche competition that obviously many enjoy.
Something like a tag-ladder would be an amazing thing to happen. There are in fact so many things that would be amazing to happen and which would be allowed to happen if there was the manpower to implement them properly.
Question: If you took a map and removed all the slider ticks from every slider so the combo is lower, would it award less PP?
No, because the potential PP a map can award is not based off of max combo, but on object count.
Well, what if there were separate boards for touch and non-touch players? That way, you could respect the scores that mouse/tablet players earn while keeping track of the touch scores (and the touch scores would not give pp, or give pp on a different scale.)
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
I still don't think it can be done reliably, Tom has said so anyways. Also, what can you do about people swapping devices part-way through a play?gameon123321 wrote:
Well, what if there were separate boards for touch and non-touch players? That way, you could respect the scores that mouse/tablet players earn while keeping track of the touch scores (and the touch scores would not give pp, or give pp on a different scale.)
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
ZenithPhantasm
Why not seperate mouse and tablet rankings too?Rewben2 wrote:
I still don't think it can be done reliably, Tom has said so anyways. Also, what can you do about people swapping devices part-way through a play?gameon123321 wrote:
Well, what if there were separate boards for touch and non-touch players? That way, you could respect the scores that mouse/tablet players earn while keeping track of the touch scores (and the touch scores would not give pp, or give pp on a different scale.)
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
YepZenithPhantasm wrote:
Why not seperate mouse and tablet rankings too?
I was thinking about the problem mentioned on the previous page of sliders being underweighted and I had an idea: What if the difficulty algorithm were to minimize strain across 3 notes at a time instead of 2? Let's call the objects A, B, and C. The idea would be to find the lowest strain way of going from A to B to C such that B and C are each hit within their respective hit windows and assume that the player plays hit object B in that way. This would give you a new starting time and location and you would then consider objects B, C, and D in order to find when and where C should be hit. The main benefit to this approach is that it allows slider starts, ends, and ticks to be treated as individual hit objects without causing problems, which should give more accurate difficulty judgments in maps that use sliders in tricky ways. I think it would also help to make short fast streams more valuable compared to longer slower streams, since higher bpm streams would gain some value from being harder to transition out of.
The biggest downside I would see to it is that the relative value of patterns like this would go down when they're already undervalued as is:
Making that worth an appropriate amount would probably at a minimum require increasing the importance of time over distance for angular cursor movements and I don't feel like thinking about that right now.
The biggest downside I would see to it is that the relative value of patterns like this would go down when they're already undervalued as is:
Making that worth an appropriate amount would probably at a minimum require increasing the importance of time over distance for angular cursor movements and I don't feel like thinking about that right now.
How would you do that?...gameon123321 wrote:
Well, what if there were separate boards for touch and non-touch players? That way, you could respect the scores that mouse/tablet players earn while keeping track of the touch scores (and the touch scores would not give pp, or give pp on a different scale.)
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
Gumpyyy wrote:
How would you do that?...gameon123321 wrote:
Well, what if there were separate boards for touch and non-touch players? That way, you could respect the scores that mouse/tablet players earn while keeping track of the touch scores (and the touch scores would not give pp, or give pp on a different scale.)
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
Well, a touchscreen can't register a finger unless it's touching the screen. Therefore, when you tap with different fingers to aim, the cursor would skip directly from one position to another, instead of gradually moving there. That's what I meant.Rewben2 wrote:
I still don't think it can be done reliably, Tom has said so anyways. Also, what can you do about people swapping devices part-way through a play?gameon123321 wrote:
Well, what if there were separate boards for touch and non-touch players? That way, you could respect the scores that mouse/tablet players earn while keeping track of the touch scores (and the touch scores would not give pp, or give pp on a different scale.)
Also, wouldn't touch players jump directly to the spot at the same time they hit, whereas mouse and tablet players would have a gradual cursor movement? There should be a way to tell the two apart. (Of course, there is dragging, but in that case, the touchscreen has the same limitations as a mouse or tablet.)
Even if it's too hard to program a detection method inside the game, there is always the option of osu scanning for touchscreen inputs. Or, people could just voluntarily say that they are using touchscreens instead of mice or tablets.
Plus, when an input device is plugged in, it usually has a name. What if osu checked for keywords, or complied a list of touch devices? Then, when a device is connected, osu can see if it's a touchscreen.
Topic Starter
Guess how rapid motions at low framerate look like? Right, like teleportation, just like touch screens. Not reliable.gameon123321 wrote:
Well, a touchscreen can't register a finger unless it's touching the screen. Therefore, when you tap with different fingers to aim, the cursor would skip directly from one position to another, instead of gradually moving there. That's what I meant.
Plus, when an input device is plugged in, it usually has a name. What if osu checked for keywords, or complied a list of touch devices? Then, when a device is connected, osu can see if it's a touchscreen.
I think I don't even need to begin explaining why the keyword method you suggest is also not reliable.
Anything not reliable can not be used for something like scores that require absolute reliability. A leaderboard only makes sense if it's integrity is out of the question. That being said, even if we could detect input device types with 100% certainty - how should we tackle scores that switch between input devices mid-play?
IF it was possible to detect device used on certain parts with 100% certainty - you could simply disallow multi-device scores for submission. Normally people play through a single map without changing from touchscreen to tablet/mouse midway, so enforcing that doesn't sound unfair for simply playing as intended with whatever playstyle.Tom94 wrote:
That being said, even if we could detect input device types with 100% certainty - how should we tackle scores that switch between input devices mid-play?
How would it know if you both a tablet and a mouse connected to the PC at the same time?Drezi wrote:
IF it was possible to detect device used on certain parts with 100% certainty - you could simply disallow multi-device scores for submission. Normally people play through a single map without changing from touchscreen to tablet/mouse midway, so enforcing that doesn't sound unfair for simply playing as intended with whatever playstyle.
Your suggestion would make me have 0 scores since I have both connected at the same time.
This is only about switching between touchscreen and non-touchscreen (cursor input) midgame. And while that's easy for us to see by looking at a replay, as I understand it's hard for a computer to detect with 100% certainty, so it's purely hypothetical anyway.
As said before something which isn't 100% certainty is like it's 0% certainty. As a programmer I can assure that something client-side (on the side of the player) is not 100% verifiable since only data are sent at the end and they can be altered anyway.
edit: wow i was way off, tom's ask.fm proved that.
Yay for 3000pp.Riince wrote:
that speed buff <3 exactly +50 pp, i wonder what my scores will look like once they're re-weighted...
R.I.P hvick's 9000pp O_O
Seems like TV Size doesn't pay off anymore.XgenSlayer wrote:
R.I.P hvick's 9000pp O_O
I can't wait for rrtyui playing a map.
Doesn't make any sense since nothing in the changelogs was said about nerfing tv sizes. if anything they wanted to nerf longer maps. they just nerfed ar10.3 since the scaling starts at 10.3 now which started 10 before. this means they nerfed all dt scores on ar 9 maps.[-Cloud-] wrote:
Seems like TV Size doesn't pay off anymore.XgenSlayer wrote:
R.I.P hvick's 9000pp O_O
I can't wait for rrtyui playing a map.
Guess what hvick farmed the most. Yes, the answer is TV Size AR9 maps. Good job, billy.
How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please. TV Size doesn't automatically equal AR9. On the other hand let me add they buffed smaller cs which makes HR scores on CS5 maps more interesting. Again, does that mean Tv sizes are worth less in general? No. In fact, CS5 HR plays are weighted stronger.[-Cloud-] wrote:
Guess what hvick farmed the most. Yes, the answer is TV Size AR9 maps. Good job, billy.
The changes also resulted in a smaller pp reward for www's Sana DT play. Now he lost 15pp of 506. Can you really say it didn't pay off? 3% less pp not worth anymore? Well...
AR9 TV Sizes + DT are indeed worth slightly less in general, at least that's what it looks like, 513 -> 489pp on hoshizora for example, despite ALL maps giving more pp overall.Infevo wrote:
How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please. TV Size doesn't automatically equal AR9. On the other hand let me add they buffed smaller cs which makes HR scores on CS5 maps more interesting. Again, does that mean Tv sizes are worth less in general? No. In fact, CS5 HR plays are weighted stronger.[-Cloud-] wrote:
Guess what hvick farmed the most. Yes, the answer is TV Size AR9 maps. Good job, billy.
On his grind to #1, hvick played mostly TV Size DT (Not only, but a lot) and now he's basically completely nerfed.
In case you didn't get it yet. hvick spammed a shitton 10.3, that's it. DH will drop soon aynways.
In case you didn't get it yet. hvick spammed a shitton 10.3, that's it. DH will drop soon aynways.
Totally aware of his plays. It is just your generalization is not right as you made it. Some of the best plays are still short versions/short maps/tv sizes with AR9 and dt. They didn't get any less impressive than before the update. It is just they balanced dt out with hr and I explained in how far.[-Cloud-] wrote:
On his grind to #1, hvick played mostly TV Size DT (Not only, but a lot) and now he's basically completely nerfed.
In case you didn't get it yet. hvick spammed a shitton 10.3, that's it. DH will drop soon aynways.
edit: sayo is also probably gonna drop as well once he is gonna get calced. also notice how many ranks azer went up considering how much hr he plays.
You asked about his drop in the rankings, not about how impressive his plays are. They are indeed impressive, but the played way too much of short AR9, which got nerfed right now. So it's no wonder he lost that much PP.
No, I didnt ask anything about him dropping in particular. I wanted you to give reasons for why short sized maps would not "pay off" anymore which is plainly wrong considering my reasoning.[-Cloud-] wrote:
You asked about his drop in the rankings, not about how impressive his plays are. They are indeed impressive, but the played way too much of short AR9, which got nerfed right now. So it's no wonder he lost that much PP.
How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please.He spammed shitty TV Sizes and now he lost fucking pp due to the 10.3 nerf. What's not understandable here? I just answered your question.
hej some of those maps are pretty fun but i agree overrated more often than not. of course its worth mentioning that a 5 star tv size has more measured difficulty than any equal duration segment of, say, a 4-5 minute 5 star map[-Cloud-] wrote:
shitty
ok, man nvm. let's make a cut right here.[-Cloud-] wrote:
How does tv size have to do anything with him losing rank? Explain please.He spammed shitty TV Sizes and now he lost fucking pp due to the 10.3 nerf. What's not understandable here? I just answered your question.
Lets not degenerate into thinking that PP is the true absolute way of determining skill, remember that it doesn't account at all for reading difficulty
pretty much half the top 10 have a shit-ton of good/incredible scores on underrated maps, hvick included
OT: The cs buff is welcome but it only affects the aim component. I know it's probably hard to fix with the way map difficulty is calculated but that means that maps with tiny circles and very spaced streams don't get benefited from it as much as they should
Examples would be snow storm euphoria
Ievan Polkka Trance Remix
Rubik's Cube
Guillaume Tell
Dragonforce maps... etc
Edit: Just realized the same could be said about HD
pretty much half the top 10 have a shit-ton of good/incredible scores on underrated maps, hvick included
OT: The cs buff is welcome but it only affects the aim component. I know it's probably hard to fix with the way map difficulty is calculated but that means that maps with tiny circles and very spaced streams don't get benefited from it as much as they should
Examples would be snow storm euphoria
Ievan Polkka Trance Remix
Rubik's Cube
Guillaume Tell
Dragonforce maps... etc
Edit: Just realized the same could be said about HD
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/182007?m=0
I FC'd this map with 98.83% acc and no mods. I got 82pp. Then I FC'd it with HD and 98.37% acc. The HD play was worth the same amount as the nomod play. It would be okay if my accuracy would've been a lot worse than the nomod play but the difference is only 0.5%. I find this really stupid since there's not a single reason why someone would like to FC the map with HD when you get no pp at all from it even though it is harder to do. Can someone explain the logic behind this?
I FC'd this map with 98.83% acc and no mods. I got 82pp. Then I FC'd it with HD and 98.37% acc. The HD play was worth the same amount as the nomod play. It would be okay if my accuracy would've been a lot worse than the nomod play but the difference is only 0.5%. I find this really stupid since there's not a single reason why someone would like to FC the map with HD when you get no pp at all from it even though it is harder to do. Can someone explain the logic behind this?
um 0.5% is a lot...Zemroid wrote:
only 0.5%.
if you dont get way worse acc like that, its a decent bit more PP, but obviously not that much since it doesnt actually increase difficulty of the map just adds a small aim pp bonus.Zemroid wrote:
not a single reason why someone would like to FC the map with HD when you get no pp at all from it even though it is harder to do. Can someone explain the logic behind this?
.5% is only a lot if you have good acc. 
Or when you're comparing modless and hidden plays.
Even if I didn't get those extra 2 100's, I doubt I would've gotten more than 83 or 84pp which seems not worth it at all.
Hidden is very well worth it on aim intensive maps as it gives a flat bonus to your aim pp. This means it's especially rewarding on jumpy maps. The map you played is probably not very aim intensive, and thus hidden has a very small effect on your final pp. On easier maps accuracy is the most important aspect as far as pp goes I believe.Zemroid wrote:
Even if I didn't get those extra 2 100's, I doubt I would've gotten more than 83 or 84pp which seems not worth it at all.
1-2 100's is also huge on short maps where they have a big effect on overall acc, had i not gotten 2 100's on natsu no hi, that play probably would have jumped up by like 10-15pp.koromo wrote:
Hidden is very well worth it on aim intensive maps as it gives a flat bonus to your aim pp. This means it's especially rewarding on jumpy maps. The map you played is probably not very aim intensive, and thus hidden has a very small effect on your final pp. On easier maps accuracy is the most important aspect as far as pp goes I believe.Zemroid wrote:
Even if I didn't get those extra 2 100's, I doubt I would've gotten more than 83 or 84pp which seems not worth it at all.
#1st score is worth 170pp
the #2 score is worth 189pp ( 1x miss )
lost about 150~ ranks from improving this score ( my pp went down to 2974 from 2993 )
feels like i don`t even have to get a full combo on any songs anymore if accuracy is more important, a full combo should be worth more
Tom,you think that accuracy is very important?I am 16k player,i NEVER gain SS rank in my life.I started to play from hard's and insanes(i dont ever play easy\normal maps).I can't understand WHY accuracy is so important.
When i was 1000 pp try to found 2000pp players and fc their nomod maps and gain less pp than they are because of accuracy.Now i have 2500 pp.Maps that people with same rank has are too easy for me,problem is the same with accuracy.
Now i pick up maps of players with the same rank,FC this maps with hr for 90% and gain LESS pp than they are.Or i just find 3000-3500pp players and pick up their maps and fc the same maps but for 90% again.You would say that "osu is rythm game,
accuracy is the most important thing im rhythm game" But on OD>10 there is no difference in rhythm between 100 and 300?Yeah in high od there is no rhythm at all.If i record the sound of 99% OD 10 play and the sound of 95% play you would not
hear the difference!Rhythm is the sound of your hitsounds&keyboard mapped with music and at od>10 it is completely the same on 90-95% but PP system does not think so.This main issue is that you can FARM easy maps on fullmod or just
gain SS on hard maps and have the same PP as you get for 90% on insane map with HR(example 104 pp for https://osu.ppy.sh/b/75071 kaneko's normal 104pp for SS fullmod 290 combo).Why my HR plays are worth the same as easy plays for SS
or hards for SS nomod?Players who farm accuracy on easy maps can't play on high speed,the cant read hard insane maps patterns,the even shouldn't know how to jump or stream,the should not read high AR,just accuracy!
Theoretically you can gain my rank playing maps like that for accuracy.Or system should be based only on accuracy like in osu!mania,fullcombo should not be so important and slidermisses too.Or combo based system where 1%pp=1%accuracy with some bonus for SS.
Example of players,that play on higher rank because of accuracy (https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4982855 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/Cooperca).I am personally started 10.33 learning to gain 200pp scores because accuracy cost more on 10.33 and high od,that means that i should
not worry about accuracy and would get about 200pp for 90%.
The second issue is HD mod.In accuracy-based system accuracy is everything as i said later.HD is a mod which helps you to get more 100s and 50s,basically mod which helps to get worth accuracy.This mod is the hardest mod in game.
But you get about 6% bonus for that?This mod would give more bonus because its really hard to get accuracy with this mod.So the main issue that this mod is no worth to play with,because its about 40% harder to play with it and bonus is only 6%.
Another issue is the length of the song.Long songs above 1000 combo does not give huge bonus.For example this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161787 gives 540pp for HDDT(505 combo 270 bpm 57 seconds,a lot of people FC that map with dt).
And this song https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 give's 450pp for 99% nomod,478pp 99% with HD and 573pp for 99% with HR(260 bpm,6.24 minutes and 2645 combo) no one ever FC that song(rrtyui got slidermiss,Legendre got banned)
That mean's that songs with high combo and high risk to get miss\slidermiss\100 or 50 does not worth anything.Its easier to farm 500 combo maps with Dt for 1 minute.I think that 500 combo maps should get the same pp as 500 combo pass on 1000 combo map.
The last problem are slidermiss.I know that your system does not rate slider difficulty(skystar,val0108 maps and other maps with hard sliders does not worth anything over their difficulty)But for slidermiss in the middle you loose
ALL of the your PP!That means that slidermisses should be removed from game(you would get 100s for slidermisses) or combo should not be important.If sliders are not rated properly the should not affect to the amount of PP.
Stream farming should be nerfed(there are a lot of players mostly asian players who can stream 200bpm as they start playing osu,i can't stream over 150 bpm at 16k rank and 1 year of playing).There are a lot of maps like that(https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116128),
which you can FC using doubletap(press z and x at the same time) or tap technique and this maps gives a lot of pp.
Conclusion:
1.Playing hard maps for lower accuracy should give more pp than playing easy maps for good accuracy (90%with HR should give like SS nomod) 1%pp=1%accuracy
2.HD mod should worth it or should not affect on pp(like in osu!mania),just score mod
3.Playing long maps should worth it because of risk to get miss and loose combo
4.Sliders should be rated properly or should not affect on amount of pp because they are not rated properly.
5.Hard patterns should be rated,there are a lot of maps with hard patterns that gives nothing over their difficulty
6.Stream farming should be nerfed
When i was 1000 pp try to found 2000pp players and fc their nomod maps and gain less pp than they are because of accuracy.Now i have 2500 pp.Maps that people with same rank has are too easy for me,problem is the same with accuracy.
Now i pick up maps of players with the same rank,FC this maps with hr for 90% and gain LESS pp than they are.Or i just find 3000-3500pp players and pick up their maps and fc the same maps but for 90% again.You would say that "osu is rythm game,
accuracy is the most important thing im rhythm game" But on OD>10 there is no difference in rhythm between 100 and 300?Yeah in high od there is no rhythm at all.If i record the sound of 99% OD 10 play and the sound of 95% play you would not
hear the difference!Rhythm is the sound of your hitsounds&keyboard mapped with music and at od>10 it is completely the same on 90-95% but PP system does not think so.This main issue is that you can FARM easy maps on fullmod or just
gain SS on hard maps and have the same PP as you get for 90% on insane map with HR(example 104 pp for https://osu.ppy.sh/b/75071 kaneko's normal 104pp for SS fullmod 290 combo).Why my HR plays are worth the same as easy plays for SS
or hards for SS nomod?Players who farm accuracy on easy maps can't play on high speed,the cant read hard insane maps patterns,the even shouldn't know how to jump or stream,the should not read high AR,just accuracy!
Theoretically you can gain my rank playing maps like that for accuracy.Or system should be based only on accuracy like in osu!mania,fullcombo should not be so important and slidermisses too.Or combo based system where 1%pp=1%accuracy with some bonus for SS.
Example of players,that play on higher rank because of accuracy (https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4982855 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/Cooperca).I am personally started 10.33 learning to gain 200pp scores because accuracy cost more on 10.33 and high od,that means that i should
not worry about accuracy and would get about 200pp for 90%.
The second issue is HD mod.In accuracy-based system accuracy is everything as i said later.HD is a mod which helps you to get more 100s and 50s,basically mod which helps to get worth accuracy.This mod is the hardest mod in game.
But you get about 6% bonus for that?This mod would give more bonus because its really hard to get accuracy with this mod.So the main issue that this mod is no worth to play with,because its about 40% harder to play with it and bonus is only 6%.
Another issue is the length of the song.Long songs above 1000 combo does not give huge bonus.For example this map https://osu.ppy.sh/b/161787 gives 540pp for HDDT(505 combo 270 bpm 57 seconds,a lot of people FC that map with dt).
And this song https://osu.ppy.sh/b/252238 give's 450pp for 99% nomod,478pp 99% with HD and 573pp for 99% with HR(260 bpm,6.24 minutes and 2645 combo) no one ever FC that song(rrtyui got slidermiss,Legendre got banned)
That mean's that songs with high combo and high risk to get miss\slidermiss\100 or 50 does not worth anything.Its easier to farm 500 combo maps with Dt for 1 minute.I think that 500 combo maps should get the same pp as 500 combo pass on 1000 combo map.
The last problem are slidermiss.I know that your system does not rate slider difficulty(skystar,val0108 maps and other maps with hard sliders does not worth anything over their difficulty)But for slidermiss in the middle you loose
ALL of the your PP!That means that slidermisses should be removed from game(you would get 100s for slidermisses) or combo should not be important.If sliders are not rated properly the should not affect to the amount of PP.
Stream farming should be nerfed(there are a lot of players mostly asian players who can stream 200bpm as they start playing osu,i can't stream over 150 bpm at 16k rank and 1 year of playing).There are a lot of maps like that(https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116128),
which you can FC using doubletap(press z and x at the same time) or tap technique and this maps gives a lot of pp.
Conclusion:
1.Playing hard maps for lower accuracy should give more pp than playing easy maps for good accuracy (90%with HR should give like SS nomod) 1%pp=1%accuracy
2.HD mod should worth it or should not affect on pp(like in osu!mania),just score mod
3.Playing long maps should worth it because of risk to get miss and loose combo
4.Sliders should be rated properly or should not affect on amount of pp because they are not rated properly.
5.Hard patterns should be rated,there are a lot of maps with hard patterns that gives nothing over their difficulty
6.Stream farming should be nerfed
The fact you never got an SS rank kinda shows it's not so easy to achieve, which must be the reason why it's rewarding. Usually when I get over 99% I still mess up some parts of the song and am not really satisfied with my play, so think about how many mistakes you make when you get 90% plays and ask yourself if you really think they should be worth a lot.Aureal3D wrote:
I am 16k player,i NEVER gain SS rank in my life.I started to play from hard's and insanes(i dont ever play easy\normal maps).I can't understand WHY accuracy is so important.
Actually I'm pretty sure you would, but I think it depends on how offbeat the 100s are.Aureal3D wrote:
If i record the sound of 99% OD 10 play and the sound of 95% play you would not hear the difference!
Doing this will not get you very far though since pp are weighted and there's a point where you don't gain a single pp from SSing hards anymore. HR makes accuracy more difficult so it obviously won't be very rewarding if you aren't accurate.Aureal3D wrote:
This main issue is that you can FARM easy maps on fullmod or just
gain SS on hard maps and have the same PP as you get for 90% on insane map with HR
This is a horrible idea. Let's say you would get 530pp for an SS on Freedom Dive with a 30pp SS bonus so 500pp for 99%, this would mean if you hit only 50s and get about 15% acc, you'd still gain over 400p for the play. The way the current pp system works is quite similar to what you described, but the pp you get for 1% acc will be higher the closer you get to SS, which makes way more sense.Aureal3D wrote:
Or combo based system where 1%pp=1%accuracy with some bonus for SS.
His accuracy is worse than yours, so unless I've misunderstood something, this makes no sense and contradicts everything you've said so far.Aureal3D wrote:
Example of players,that play on higher rank because of accuracy (https://osu.ppy.sh/u/4982855 and https://osu.ppy.sh/u/Cooperca)
Unlike HR and DT, HD usually doesn't make things harder at all, it just makes the game different. HD has no influence on any of the difficulty settings, so once you are used to playing with it, it shouldn't really be any harder than playing without mods. You could therefore say it's actually the easiest mod in the game once you're used to it. Try playing a map with only HR, only DT and then only HD, your best play will probably be the HD one. I could be wrong about this though because I never really play HD so you could say I don't know what I'm talking about.Aureal3D wrote:
The second issue is HD mod.In accuracy-based system accuracy is everything as i said later.HD is a mod which helps you to get more 100s and 50s,basically mod which helps to get worth accuracy.This mod is the hardest mod in game.
But you get about 6% bonus for that?This mod would give more bonus because its really hard to get accuracy with this mod.So the main issue that this mod is no worth to play with,because its about 40% harder to play with it and bonus is only 6%.
If some asian guy is good at streaming 200bpm from day one and you're still bad at it even after a year of playing, he's obviously lucky to have that skill from the start but that doesn't mean you should complain because it's unfair. Just deal with it and take the time to learn streams, there will always be people who are naturally better than you at certain things. I could say jumps are overrated because an FC on Granat gives more pp than SSing Macuilxochitl which to me is a lot harder, but that's just because my aim is better than my streaming. If you think the map you linked gives a lot of pp and can easily be FCd, go ahead and do it instead of complaining, otherwise you just seem like you're mad because you're not good at certain things that happen to be rewarding. It reminds me of people who complain about DT "farming" and call it easy but aren't actually able to play with the mod at all.Aureal3D wrote:
Stream farming should be nerfed(there are a lot of players mostly asian players who can stream 200bpm as they start playing osu,i can't stream over 150 bpm at 16k rank and 1 year of playing).There are a lot of maps like that(https://osu.ppy.sh/b/116128),
which you can FC using doubletap(press z and x at the same time) or tap technique and this maps gives a lot of pp.
tiny circles and spaced streams not buffed enough? eh? https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384?m=0 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/111302?m=0Purple wrote:
Lets not degenerate into thinking that PP is the true absolute way of determining skill, remember that it doesn't account at all for reading difficulty
pretty much half the top 10 have a shit-ton of good/incredible scores on underrated maps, hvick included
OT: The cs buff is welcome but it only affects the aim component. I know it's probably hard to fix with the way map difficulty is calculated but that means that maps with tiny circles and very spaced streams don't get benefited from it as much as they should
Examples would be snow storm euphoria
Ievan Polkka Trance Remix
Rubik's Cube
Guillaume Tell
Dragonforce maps... etc
Edit: Just realized the same could be said about HD
@Aureal3D
Most of your post is you complaining that people who can do things you can't get rewarded for it or that you aren't getting rewarded for doing a mediocre job on things (HD, long maps), but since woqx already covered most of that, I would just like to point out 2 things you said that made some sense:
-Sliders are, in fact underrated right now. This is a well-known problem. Removing them from pp entirely is a terrible solution though...better they're worth too little than that they're worth nothing. I posted a suggestion a page ago of something that might help sliders out a bit but it got lost and ignored. If you have any ideas of a way of valuing sliders properly without making repeat sliders and sliderstreams worth too much, you should suggest it here to help out tom.
-Pattern difficulty is high up on the list of "things we would like to have, but that are very difficult to implement". Like sliders, if you can come up with a good way to deal with pattern difficulty, you should post your suggestions in this thread.
A lot of problems and complaints have been brought up in the 133 pages of this thread. Obviously you can't be expected to read the entire thing to see which things have and haven't been suggested, but at this point, complaints about problems that have been around since this system was implemented aren't really that useful unless you also give suggestions of how to fix them.
Most of your post is you complaining that people who can do things you can't get rewarded for it or that you aren't getting rewarded for doing a mediocre job on things (HD, long maps), but since woqx already covered most of that, I would just like to point out 2 things you said that made some sense:
-Sliders are, in fact underrated right now. This is a well-known problem. Removing them from pp entirely is a terrible solution though...better they're worth too little than that they're worth nothing. I posted a suggestion a page ago of something that might help sliders out a bit but it got lost and ignored. If you have any ideas of a way of valuing sliders properly without making repeat sliders and sliderstreams worth too much, you should suggest it here to help out tom.
-Pattern difficulty is high up on the list of "things we would like to have, but that are very difficult to implement". Like sliders, if you can come up with a good way to deal with pattern difficulty, you should post your suggestions in this thread.
A lot of problems and complaints have been brought up in the 133 pages of this thread. Obviously you can't be expected to read the entire thing to see which things have and haven't been suggested, but at this point, complaints about problems that have been around since this system was implemented aren't really that useful unless you also give suggestions of how to fix them.
The first map you showed is a prime example of something that would give jack shit PP without 98.5%+ accuracyB1rd wrote:
tiny circles and spaced streams not buffed enough? eh? https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384?m=0 https://osu.ppy.sh/b/111302?m=0
Pretty much every HR score is like that in the moment, you get the deserved PP for it but only if you get very good accuracy, no matter how hard it is to FC the song. In that sense, I do think accuracy is slightly overrated, but it kind has to be ATM because otherwise HR would be completely worthless.
I mean, a good example of why this is a problem is Airman with HR. It should give about 600 PP no matter what, but it doesn't, even if you have 99% accuracy, just because BD didn't put enough streams in it.
If I got it right that pp assumes the minimum movement for sliders, then why isn't it halfway inbetween min and max?
I haven't laughed like this in years. I love you Aureal3D.
I think low acc plays should give a little more pp. But still, high acc is a prerequisite for HR, you can't just use it for AR10 and small CS and complain shit acc FC's don't give enough pp. Airman HR should give nowhere near 600pp, it's not that hard. For bad acc, maybe 460-70 IMO.Purple wrote:
The first map you showed is a prime example of something that would give jack shit PP without 98.5%+ accuracy
Pretty much every HR score is like that in the moment, you get the deserved PP for it but only if you get very good accuracy, no matter how hard it is to FC the song. In that sense, I do think accuracy is slightly overrated, but it kind has to be ATM because otherwise HR would be completely worthless.
I mean, a good example of why this is a problem is Airman with HR. It should give about 600 PP no matter what, but it doesn't, even if you have 99% accuracy, just because BD didn't put enough streams in it.
Oh and Tom said that he will be nerfing the length bonus for high circle streamy maps.
good question...Kheldragar wrote:
If I got it right that pp assumes the minimum movement for sliders, then why isn't it halfway inbetween min and max?
New players these days lol.DT-sama wrote:
I haven't laughed like this in years. I love you Aureal3D.