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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

NOTE: Not exactly sure whether I should report this problem in this thread or start a new one(haven't really been on the forums though I've been playing Osumania! for some time). I'm neither sure whether this problem has already been reported before and solved(haven't found a thread or somewhere on the internet about this problem....).
Also: This is my first post so please don't slaugther me for my inexperience and wrongdoings(as well as poor english)?


I have more or less a problem concerning Osumania! that are actually somewhat pretty irritating...
The problem is:
Slowed note falling speed, but higher note density.
The beatmap still properly follows the song in regards to when a note should be played, but the speed at which the notes falls are significantly slower than what it is supposed to be, and in the meanwhile the notes are far closer(which is why the beatmap still properly follows the song, but goes at a slower rate..).

I found that I could fix this problem on some maps by replaying a ranked map, that goes at the proper speed, which will in turn fix the wrong speed for me.
The problem is then that this does obviously not work for maps that are not ranked..(know that they are slower cuz my brother also have the beatmap and it goes significantly faster, though with the notes spread out some more...)
you need to adjust speed through F3 or F4 in-game or ctrl + or - before starting the song. It's no bug, it's intended. :)
Ulqux
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Ulqux
Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
When you progress into harder songs it's actually easier to play at higher speeds as long as you can follow the notes since patterns gets more complex and density of notes gets tighter. :)

and yes anyone can change it as they see fit. ;)
Sibula
1 post
Joined May 2012
Sibula
I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

Allium97 wrote:

I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Actually long maps aren't necessarily giving heaps of pp; currently some of the more overrated maps, such as Koi Yomi Zakura, Utakata Ai no Mahoroba, Atropos, Poppin Shower are only around 2 minutes, and give more than they honestly should, while some long songs definitely are underrated such as fortissimo and workaholic. Larger problems are that low level 7k gives a hell of a lot less than low level 4k, vice versa for higher levels, and songs with heavy LN being underrated compared to songs with heaps of chords.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Unfortunately, trying to create a mathematical model of difficulty for mania is not exactly easy. Gotta say, I'm impressed with tom's work so far, even if it has plenty of imperfections.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
If you're not going to do anything with our suggestions maybe just close the topic and unsticky it?
Noobrage_old
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage_old
1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Noobrage wrote:

1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Map popularity and score rank achieved aren't factors in the current pp system anymore (they were factors in ppv1 only).
Noobrage_old
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage_old
That actually didnt explain why these maps give SO MUCH more PP.
They are mostly (NOT always) harder, but that aint a reason that they should give *10 as much points...
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
maps are popular because they give a lot of PP
not the other way around orz
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
After checking out Logger Pro to try and find a correlation between score/1million and PP awarded (for Aiae SHD) I couldn't find an equation, although it appears to be some sort of exponential with a y-intercept of 500,000 and an exponent of less than one.

Lol I personally would love it if the scores could automatically include how many performance points are awarded for a ranked score. It would likely give people a good indicator/inclination to play maps at or slightly above their level.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I know I thought he meant a fixed amount of pp gained from score only...
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
that would be incredibly silly

farm all [Easy] autoconverts, become top master

just like ppv1!
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Aqo wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
The accuracy percentage also influences the pp gained a bit, but the influence of it is decreased when the star difficulty of the map increases (so, at some point, the influence of it is so small score is the only things that matters).
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
I'm sort of new to mania (been playing for 40 some days, have about 2000 pp) and this is my first post, but I really quickly noticed that the ranking system for mania needed to be changed somehow. The thing that bugged me the most is that 4k-8k are weighted the same, but 4k is much easier, so in my case like many others, all of my top scores for pp are from 4k songs. I could do really good in my standards on a 7k song, but not get any pp for it because I did a little better on the 4k songs, even though they are easier. For auto-converts, most of them get low difficulty ratings anyways, and you can easily get more pp from mania charts than you could from auto-converts. IMO, I wouldn't take auto-converts out from giving you pp, because if you're good at mania, you will get more pp from the mania songs anyways. That's just my opinion though, and I don't really know how far you can go, farming standard songs. If there were more ranked mania charts than there are currently available though, I would probably be more for disabling pp for auto-converts. There are also some songs that are considered way too high in difficulty (i.e. Utakata) that give you way too many pp.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
4K is not necessarily easier than 7K except on an extremely high-level of play because 7K can be more dense than 4K, but for most players 4K focuses on speed, density and stamina whereas 7 and 8K is more about reading difficult patterns. However 4K gives way too much pp for low and mid-level play and not enough for high-level play. Higher key amounts suffer the opposite problem. That's why many players around 0 to 3000~ pp have a 4K song as their top perf whereas the other top players usually have 7K charts as top perfs. (Well there is AiAe but it IS underrated)
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
4K will feel overrated if your speed is better than your reading
7K will feel overrated if your reading is better than your speed

Just like in standard, everyone complains that whatever they're good at is overrated. People who can stream fast say that stream maps give too much pp, people who can aim well say jump maps give too much etc..
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I meant it as SR underrate 4K too much in comparison to 7 and 8K. I'm confident in saying that AiAe is equal if not harder than, say, IN2K6.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
Frustration
57 posts
Joined September 2013
Frustration

Tristan97 wrote:

I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

caiorandom wrote:

Tristan97 wrote:

I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.
sadly this does not hold true for standard
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-

Bobbias wrote:

The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
There's not very many songs that can allow for something crazy to map (at least in mania). They do exist though, but good luck finding them lol
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
pretty sure a lot of BMS stuff technically allows crazy stuff to be mapped, even without looking at how original charts are done. Some "epic musics" (heavy orchestral stuff, such as two steps from hell tracks) can make pretty damn awesome LN charts as well.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Yes, and I'm all for in people to go for it.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.

It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I have a new idea for this
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
don't bother, nobody is looking here
IamBaum
322 posts
Joined August 2013
IamBaum
Well at least there have been 3 now :)
tbh i like that idea baraatje :)
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
*waves hand*
h3ndy_
2 posts
Joined November 2012
h3ndy_
Kinda sad that Mania scoring is still broken :(
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
ikzune
159 posts
Joined August 2013
ikzune
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

laishiou wrote:

my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
That was brought up and discussed 5 or 6 months ago and look at amount of stuff changed.
I don't know why this thread still exists
Anti Fun
14 posts
Joined December 2013
Anti Fun
Performance points don't fit in vsrg. It should be something like dan courses in lr2. It would be more precise and quite easy to implement
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

PyaKura wrote:

Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Doesn't matter how long o!m's been out, peppy wouldn't change it anyway. :/

Honestly, PP isn't the worst way to rank players... Imagine how dumb ranks would be if they relied on "ranked score" instead of PP (oh wait, they did years ago, and it was awful).
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Tear wrote:

Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
If pp (or rank score, or any other value used for rank) went up noticeably whether or not you did well, then lowdiff farming wouldn't be avoided (unless the scaling from difficulty increases extremely fast with difficulty, for example, the easiest map in the game gives 1 point, a mid-tier map gives 10^35 points, and a top-tier map gives 10^45 points). The purpose of the decrease of pp gain rate from plays is limiting the amount of pp obtained from playing many maps of similar difficulty without increasing the difficulty over time. If the difficulty calculation of the pp system is accurate, then players will keep getting pp as long as they increase the difficulty (or performance) of the maps they play (because of that, a good difficulty calculator for osu!mania maps is very important for making the pp system better).

Looking at beatmap leaderboards of hard maps can give you an idea of who are the best players in the game, but you can't use that method to know the skill ranking of players that aren't as good as those top players (a well designed pp system should be able to give a good idea of that).
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
There's one very simple change that would makes all modes of osu fun, addictive and still rewarding:

Disable pp weighting.

Let it accumulate as you play. Even if you didn't do your best, you still get a few points. Unlike score, pp goes up exponentially so lowdiff farming would be severely reduced.
"But I can just play all the easies in the game for #1!" And pros can play all the insanes for #1, what's your point?
Any attempt to make an objective skill rating is doomed to fail, so why not make the game fun instead? Note that pp without weighting is identical to DJ Points in LR2 and IIDX. Also note that my solution does not render Tom's work obsolete at all, pp as a measure of a score's worth is still used to reward skill and make you go up faster than playing easier stuff.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Tear, that's just plain wrong. You want everyone to play tons of autoconverts to get their score up? That's going back to ppv1, which as we know sucked dicks. Current pp system is okay-ish, if we'd get some attention and some fixes to formula, we'd have a realy good system. But oh,well.
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Don't we all agree that autoconverts should be unranked, lol
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Unrank autoconverts and bam, current system is 2 times better. Also, you should know by now that no one is going to change anything
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Yeah it's just pointless banter, I get bored.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
As frustrating as it is, I actually like the weighting on PP. It ensures that you don't have inflation on PP as players play more and more songs, making the ranking system much more stable, which is a major requirement for any half-decent ranking system.

One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I actually think that current system is a good base onto something really awesome. Good and wasted base.
Can't say I disagree with that. At least I can say I tried.
Omio9999
44 posts
Joined January 2012
Omio9999
Okay, so far, in here, I've heard a lot of whining, and not really a lot of meat for suggesting.

bluh bluh ban all autoconverts
First, what ARE autoconverts? I'm not a "mania" purist - I'm casual as crap, I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal.
Second, assuming that there's mania-specific maps, removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality. "OH LOOK EVERYONE, LET'S MURDER THE SAME TWENTY SONGS!" isn't something I really relish sitting behind, no offense intended.
osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun. Taiko's singled out, and every attempt I make to play that mode casually ends either in frustration, disappointment, or otherwise feeling inept - the casuals are kinda singled out.

rank _k scores separately
How about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.

Now then, onto my ideas (note, they're guesses, I don't know what the actual algorithm entails):

1) Develop a formula for average density, and pace - to factor into the possible "stars" (let's face it, having "slow parts" will make a difference no matter what, "skipping" them requires database/resubmitting tweaks that I don't think the dev team wants to really do). ie. [*] = note density x (bpm/120)
2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
3) (may also be under 'gameplay', and since I don't know the origin of osu!mania, this can be ignored) Alter how 'spinners' function (perhaps similar to Taiko, but limited to just the 4K bindings for spinner input)? I notice that in really spinner-happy maps, they turn sad-easy.

...And I went braindead. Oh well, current base is good.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Omio9999 wrote:

I only really started getting a smudge more pp-happy in the past like... ...month or so, and even then, I just want to try to keep over 100K - not an overly hard goal. Removing "autoconverts" removes a lot of viable maps, and you may as well kiss 99.9% of the song list goodbye with that kind of mentality.osu! is about fun, and osu!mania shouldn't be much different, and singling things out isn't entirely fun.
Why are you talking about pp's if you're playing casually ? The pp system - as half-arsed as it is - is a competitive element in the game. If you're playing casually nothing prevents you from playing autoconverts for fun. By the way, we are talking about unranking the autoconverts so they don't give any pp at all, not straight out remove them.

Omio9999 wrote:

rank _k scores separately
How about "no"? There's debuffs for altering the Ks, and the bigger difference in Ks translates into a bigger dip in overall score. I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that the debuff that we currently have is good enough to keep things from getting too farm-happy for everyone.
Following what I said previously, you can only apply nK-mods to autoconverts. Mania-specific maps are not affected by those mods. (Not to say pretty much everyone farms on mania-specific maps since they usually give way more pp's).

Omio9999 wrote:

2) "amplify" the current star rating? I'm seeing literally NOTHING over 6 stars in my list, and I think that several maps are potentially of 7+ star status.
If your map list is mostly, if not entirely made out of autoconverts, then it's completely normal. They are usually far easier than mania-specific maps (or retardedly hard for a few of them). There is currently only one mania-specific ranked map rated over 7 stars which would Imperishable Night 2006, and a few maps over or around 6 stars (off the top of my head, Akasha, Intersect Thunderbolt, Shuffle Heaven, Zirkfied...). There are loads of 5 stars maps as well.

Anyway, I don't want to offend you but it seems your current o!m experience was mostly based around autoconverts. FYI, autoconverts as you might have guessed, are automatically converted by the game from osu!standard maps. They're okayish for first-timers, but past that point everyone is better off playing mania-specific because of the way they are structured mapping-wise. You may not see what I'm talking about atm but I can assure you that autoconverts feel REALLY WRONG compared to mania-specific maps (pitch relevancy, layering, SVs... autoconverts fail at all of that and more).

I didn't bother replying to your entire post because your view on the whole thing is uuuh... out of place I guess, due to your lack of experience, and thus so are your statements.

That said, the only real downside for mania-specific maps is that the mappool is tiny compared to osu!std, but there are enough ranked maps and tons of unranked which keep the mode alive and fun for most players.

I suggest you play some more o!m on mania-specific maps to give you a better idea of the current situation. Have fun :D
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020

Bobbias wrote:

One of the real flaws in the system is that it only uses your top scores in calculations. This incentivizes those players who are willing to sit there and spam a song until they get that fluke personal best. But at least that takes much more effort than just spamming out a bunch of low PP scores (which would happen if the weighting were removed with no other changes).
On the other hand, everyone receives the same incentive, so "zero out".

I admit I also spam the song to get a lucky personal best, but its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
It is practice, but not all practice is equal. Spamming is practice on the specifics of that particular map, not on maps as a whole, so it will not help you learn as quickly for other maps as randomized practice does. It can help if that map contains specific patterns you have trouble with, but it still results in slower general skill improvement. Especially if it's grinding for SS scores. All that does is make you marginally more consistent on easy songs. In the 3 months I focused on that kind of improvement in stepmania I found that I actually got worse at harder maps because of lack of practice on them.

Ideally though I'd prefer the system to track every score a player makes, so it can see how consistent a player is.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
you can't ask consistency in players because the next day they could be drunk while playing. or ate a lot of carbo and meat. or had an injury. or anything.

heck I'd even wager that a change in room temperature affects the player's stamina. most people I know irl would feel their wrist/hands like "frozen" when its cold or getting hit by your standard electric fan.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

kidlat020 wrote:

its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

kidlat020 wrote:

its not like there will be a 3% difference between the spam in a single day. And like it or not, spamming is practicing.
I sometimes get even 5% diffrence IN A SINGLE DAY, without any weird stuff going on. Also spamming is training, but it only trains your speed and you lose a lot of you accuracy in the process. I know that because I've experienced it myself (having lower 300g/300 ratios than 5 months ago on Utakata for example)
We were talking about spam playing the same song over and over, not anmitsu/spamming the keys.

And yeah, I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I've had random runs where I get like 5% better acc later the same day too.
that only means that's your real play.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
You don't make sense :s
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
that 5% increase in a single day wasn't luck. that was his true ability [at that day].

this had always been a problem in statistical data. flip a coin 100 times. same principle.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
I don't get'cha, most of my top pp scores are pure luck with spamming and I can't get remotely close to beating them (with exception of Utakata, but I've played it like 100 times)
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I don't get'cha, most of my top pp scores are pure luck with spamming and I can't get remotely close to beating them (with exception of Utakata, but I've played it like 100 times)
This is exactly what I was talking about. Random lucky scores happen. I've had scores that took 9 months before I could beat them because of that. If you spam play songs, you have an advantage because you can play each song until you get a lucky score, then more of your top scores are likely to be lucky scores.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I've had scores that took 9 months before I could beat them because of that.
you already improved.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I don't consider those lucky scores as my real level.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Taking 9 months to catch up to a lucky spammed score isn't really improvement following your logic.
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Tidek wrote:

I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
To be honest, if it wasn't for kind-of broken o!m mechanics and my attitude of clearing hard stuff>getting good accuracy, it would probably be easier for me to do so. Still, lucky scores happen and it's not easy to beat them.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Tidek wrote:

I can beat every my old spam/not spam score (around 3months) every try, learn to play instead of spam lol.
Not everyone learns at the same pace. I've been playing for over a decade, and there are plenty of players with far less time who are far better than me. So just because you can beat your old scores in some amount of time doesn't mean anything for anyone else.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
it doesn't disprove anything either. because, records say that you've improved even though you yourself don't feel it is so.

even if its a lucky run.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
"I did a fluke 700k run on that map and I won't be able to beat it in 3 months, but I've improved"
So you're saying that lucky run shows our true skill and then we go backwards?

kidlat020 wrote:

it doesn't disprove anything either. because, records say that you've improved even though you yourself don't feel it is so.
"I've run 100m in 11 seconds once, but now I'm running it in 15 seconds. Still, I'm an olympic class runner."
Well in o!m lucky spams don't show ANYTHING. You can literally spam a map to 700k without even looking. If you call that an improvement, then I'm outta here.
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
"I've run 100m in 11 seconds once, but now I'm running it in 15 seconds. Still, I'm an olympic class runner."
yeah sure. who's to prove (or disprove) that said athlete ate too much sugar or carbs the next day that would interfere with his performance?

or that he wasn't really "lucky" but actually in top shape (correct sugar intake and carbs)?

this doesn't apply to mania only. even std and taiko would.

seriously, if you guys think practicing is the only factor playing here, then I'm outta here.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
good emotional and physical health plays an important role in anything, but for something like osu, i dont see how anything beyond keeping away from harmful illegal drugs and eating/sleeping right would affect your performance positively [aside from practicing].
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
I'm overweight (despite being 3k rank) so I'd know that even the smallest excess of fat in my fingers is interfering with my hitting the keys.

anything that's double note hit is my greatest enemy. jackhammers are my death.

#healthissues
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Overall health will certainly help. It's well known that a healthy body will have a positive effect on the brain, and that things like eating breakfast can have a positive effect on outcomes later that day. However, I have a feeling that these factors are very small, and have more of a cumulative effect than any immediate effect on any specific day.

I currently have a score on https://osu.ppy.sh/s/239943 which is 100k higher than my other scores (roughly 9% accuracy above my average score). It will likely take me months before any one of my average scores will match that level. It's certainly possible that I could beat that score next time I play that map, but the chances are extremely small.

Unless you're entozer, everyone finds jackhammers hard.
lenpai
1,783 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
*Cough Jxyden 2000 note per minute 1/8 + 1/16 jack master (song is plasma strike btw, its an Ftb chart/map)

Seriously though practice is still what matters most. What dictates the skill improvement rate of a player depends in the type of charts he plays (pattern specific, ranked, or comfort zone stuff) + (or times, its up to the reader) his actual talent or learning speed.

And about best plays, they DO NOT always (sightreads taken into consideration) show a player's actual skill level. It just shows his potential and that improvement is possible.

Overall body condition does help. Boredom, sleepiness, hunger, weak body, and any oher impediment does affect a players gameplay. The magnitude varies from player to player. Same goes for positive conditions.
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko
Pls fix this!This map gives more pp with 8k mod then the original one on 7k 8k-> http://puu.sh/enkVN/ba74a51de6.png ( pp amount http://puu.sh/enlmH/0d4700d736.png ) 7k -> http://puu.sh/enkYj/f12e732f9f.png ( pp amount http://puu.sh/enlzN/40a08c1f90.png )
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
^ Is that a bug?

If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable

If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko

Tristan97 wrote:

^ Is that a bug?

If so, please remove it as quickly as possible or better yet just make auto-converts unrankable

If not, then there needs each difficulty of each converted beatmap needs to be treated as a separate entity depending on key-mod, which would be difficult to implent so just unrank the auto-converts please.
nope it isnt this map on 8k has 6,XX* and on 7k it has 4,XX* and the pp ranking depends on how much * the map has so the 8k version is obviously more pp worth then the 7k version
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-
Pipe Dream's 8K autoconvert is rated a lot higher than the 7k because it has this


not really a bug, but the way hitsounds are converted
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I get that, it's just that if Pipe Dream's 7k 4.21 difficulty should be treated as a separate map from the 8k 6.xx star difficulty. None of this 'you'll get however many pp the score you just got multiplied by 0.90 would have been worth on the 7k chart' for somebody that manages the scratches amazingly and gets an S on the 8k map.

(If they are going to worth pp)
Reiko
59 posts
Joined December 2011
Reiko

Tristan97 wrote:

I get that, it's just that if Pipe Dream's 7k 4.21 difficulty should be treated as a separate map from the 8k 6.xx star difficulty. None of this 'you'll get however many pp the score you just got multiplied by 0.90 would have been worth on the 7k chart' for somebody that manages the scratches amazingly and gets an S on the 8k map.

(If they are going to worth pp)
but how should some1 with nearly 1kk go for the 8k version? u know the max you can get is 900k
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
^That's my point. If getting a perfect score on the 'original autoconverted difficulty' of 7 keys granted full pp, then why shouldn't getting straight 320s be worth the full pp of the 8k difficulty? Just because it's not the 'naturally converted number of keys'?

They are autoconverts, there shouldn't be such a discrepancy.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
They are autoconverts, they shouldn't give ANY pp
/thread
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

They are autoconverts, they shouldn't give ANY pp
/thread
I considered saying this earlier. Then I realized it's not gonna change anything anyway. Common sense has lost this round.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Well it's been said a lot of times before, so I just repeat it
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I mean, as the mania community increases, we could see if eventually the BATs that are mania playres would make a case for making autoconverts not worth pp.

But there a a lot of things I think the osu!mania system could do to improve. I know this is the right place and it won't happen until we act, but for now, I feel as if waiting for the new keymodes to settle in is the best way to allow developments for the mode in general progress.

In the mean while, people should just continue to play the mode and map more ET difficultiesspreads.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
1) People ARE mapping ET spreads
2) Changes in PP system are inevitable and actually being worked on atm
3) We shouldn't have autoconverts giving pp at ANY stage of development
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
Per-mod highscores and thus pp are going to come. In fact they're already implemented and will be enabled as soon as the server is ready.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Thanks for bothering to respond Tom94. So does that mean that ET players can have both the Identity Part 4 non-mod 7k map and the Identity Part 4 modded 8k map show in their top ranks, each earning separate pp?

Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Tristan97 wrote:

Thanks for bothering to respond Tom94. So does that mean that ET players can have both the Identity Part 4 non-mod 7k map and the Identity Part 4 modded 8k map show in their top ranks, each earning separate pp?

Or is it just the maximum pp earned from the highest pp awarding play on a map, modded or not?
The original intention is to only allow each difficulty to only give pp once - in that case for the score giving the most. I can see why it might be more desirable to allow multiple pp gains from the same map due to different keymods basically being different maps. Such an exception could possibly be made.
Blocko
osu! Alumni
751 posts
Joined February 2014
Blocko
What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
Staiain
152 posts
Joined March 2009
Staiain
So this means the return of DT + pp then ?
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Blocko wrote:

What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
I'd say DT deserves to be separate more than xk mods on autoconverts.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97

Bobbias wrote:

I'd say DT deserves to be separate more than xk mods on autoconverts.
I would agree with this
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
What about HR?
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

Tidek wrote:

What about HR?
I suppose HR might also deserve it... Although I'd say less than DT. With HR, if you're capable of getting a good score (let's say 98-100%) on something, it's not going to be that much harder. The HP drain increase is nearly meaningless at that point, and the OD increase likely won't make a very large impact on your accuracy, although it will at least have more of an effect than the increased HP drain.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Staiain wrote:

So this means the return of DT + pp then ?
DT would start giving a pp bonus again, yes.


Blocko wrote:

What about DT plays? Would they be separate plays as well?
No. It's the same map, just faster. Of course both your DT and nomod scores would be stored, but you couldn't get pp for nomod AND for DT at the same time. You'd only get pp for whichever of the 2 scores gives more pp. Just to clarify: Scores with different mods would all get stored, but only your most giving pp score of these would count towards your total pp.

Keymods are the only ones with which you will possibly be able to get pp multiple times from the same map.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Does this imply that things like country ranking and global ranking are going to decrease in relevancy due to the fact that some players will only play maps on dt, making the score they receive not reflective of the no-mod score? Could this be solved by changing the ranking system to going by pp earned (or creating an entirely new ranking for supporters or similar)?
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Tristan97 wrote:

Does this imply that things like country ranking and global ranking are going to decrease in relevancy due to the fact that some players will only play maps on dt, making the score they receive not reflective of the no-mod score? Could this be solved by changing the ranking system to going by pp earned (or creating an entirely new ranking for supporters or similar)?
I imagine this will be too complicated to implement, so nah.
btw we could totally have hr back as ranked mod
Tokiiwa
102 posts
Joined February 2014
Tokiiwa
mod pp hype
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
The main problem is that no1 will care about scoreboard on map when it will be implement. (unless DT will increase max possible points to for example 1,12mln but thats not going to happen i guess)
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
You can just get a nomod highscore for places and dt score for pp, I see no problem here.
Also nobody really cares about scoreboard if they farm pp, it's just an addition
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