i farm hards with FL for more e-peen, but i upload videos of my plays to youtube frequently and i would never upload a hard map i just played for pp farm
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What do you have against PP farmers?
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I think everybody is open to play what they want to play. if people say that this is the wrong way to play the game, then something is obviously off. only because you wouldn't play hard diffs with HD DT to get more pp doesn't mean that it isn't ok for others to do so. in the end, you should enjoy playing the game. if your enjoyment comes from an high pp-rank achieved through many hard-maps, then so be it.
so yea, this whole vendetta against pp-farmers is pretty stupid in my opinion. if you care about the ranking, then work for a high rankingplacement.
so yea, this whole vendetta against pp-farmers is pretty stupid in my opinion. if you care about the ranking, then work for a high rankingplacement.
shilkey only cares about #1s, more people need to do dthr tho it's easy to learnWinshley wrote:
Another thing is Accuracy. Some people hate certain mod combination with perfect accuracy to lose over someone with bad accuracy just because the person has additional HR mod. (Sorry, Saint and Shilkey/Hanyuu-chan, but I know someone who added you into their hate list. I actually don't care about it. ;< )
I really never did much dt hd plays, mostly because if I try I can't get good accuracy on them. I consider myself a decent player. Do I deserve my rank? no idea
pp is fine stop whining
farming hards IS the game and ranks mean nothing
Topic Starter
hurr durr silly large post I shouldn't have wasted my time on inc
xsrsbsns wrote:
Naturally it also looks desperate and of course no one likes that.
SPOILER
I look around for maps that give points, and if I think I can get a good rank on it, I go for it. Why is that desperate, just because the map so happens to be labeled "hard"?
silmarilen wrote:
ok so by using logic you showed why the one map would give more pp than the other. then lets look at another example: me.
my whole top10 performance is hd fl on incredibly easy maps yet im almost top500 pp (i used to be top500). how is that fair?
and dont tell me i used a lot of plays so its dedication, because some of them were done in less than 20 plays
SPOILER
You're getting hung up on the wrong data. A few things you should know:
Your current PP amount currently gives you a very low amount of diminishing returns (comparing to someone just 200 ranks higher)
You have a lot of plays and 200~ish submitted top 50 scores (not on easy/normal diffs) - this is a lot more than the majority of the osu community, so these scores are building on top of each other to get to your current PP amount
Rank is the largest determining factor in how much PP you get for a map. Most of those maps are not worth a particularly large amount of pp, but because you are highly ranked on them (#1-#6) and getting SS, they are giving you the most amount of PP you can get out of them.
And again, due to diminishing returns on PP gains not hitting you particularly hard yet, you are getting a lot for most of these scores.
You can disagree with the system all you want, but this is how it works (based on my own experiences)
Your current PP amount currently gives you a very low amount of diminishing returns (comparing to someone just 200 ranks higher)
You have a lot of plays and 200~ish submitted top 50 scores (not on easy/normal diffs) - this is a lot more than the majority of the osu community, so these scores are building on top of each other to get to your current PP amount
Rank is the largest determining factor in how much PP you get for a map. Most of those maps are not worth a particularly large amount of pp, but because you are highly ranked on them (#1-#6) and getting SS, they are giving you the most amount of PP you can get out of them.
And again, due to diminishing returns on PP gains not hitting you particularly hard yet, you are getting a lot for most of these scores.
You can disagree with the system all you want, but this is how it works (based on my own experiences)
Blue Dragon wrote:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it
I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol
SPOILER
That map is not worth a particularly high amount of pp, so I don't know where you're getting this from. Also, unless accuracy is really bad, usually higher rank is more meaningful to the system.
Satonaka wrote:
imo It's because [Hard]s in beatmaps are labeled as Insane for osu! thus making them give similar (if not the same) pp.
Like silmarilen's examples. Both [Hard]s and [Insane]s display the I star for Insane. http://puu.sh/2qaAo and http://puu.sh/2qaAO
SPOILER
As far as I know, star rating isn't counted into PP calculations, but don't quote me on this (I don't know any of peppy's algorithms, so I can't say for sure)
It would be nice if we could get a quote for that from him, though, because star rating is absolutely worthless
It would be nice if we could get a quote for that from him, though, because star rating is absolutely worthless
fartownik wrote:
If you farm PP on the main Insanes of the sets and do it with the hardest mod combination possible to achieve #1 then it's fine (aka Cookiezi farming). You can say it's not actually farming but just spamming #1s. Farming on Hards is simply wrong because you don't have enough of top tier players playing them to challenge with, which means getting the first place on them is easier than the main Insane, no matter the level of the difficulty itself. It can be as hard as the toughest Insanes, but still there's not enough competition and you just can't know how good the best players would do on them. It doesn't make the score any less impressive, but gives you additional PP that you don't deserve.
SPOILER
You can say this for any insane with few scores by pros as well. While what you're saying is technically correct, it doesn't mean that you don't deserve the PP you're getting -- you are receiving points within the boundaries the system sets for you, and if someone else wanted those points, they could come take them, as long as they can beat your score. Also, hard diffs recently are getting more and more contested by really good players (not cookiezi/white wolf/rrtyui etc tier, but very strong players nonetheless), and many of them are pretty difficult maps in their own right.
AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
Nothing I can do about it, but I dislike when 70% of top 100 are FLwhores. Every damn map with some exceptions is gonna be FLed sooner or later T.T
SPOILER
I agree, FL breaks the PP system in a few ways, but I don't feel like turning this thread into a memory vs skill discussion
AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
96% hdhr is like SS hd, please....
SPOILER
Maybe 98-99% (in terms of accuracy, this doesn't take into account the increase in map difficulty due to CS/AR)
AmaiHachimitsu wrote:
Why the most played maps do give MUCH more pp? Instead of encouraging people to play miscellaneous maps they play only a bunch when they want to rank up. Who cares if a map is super-popular - top #30 will give you more pp than a #1 on a map that may be even harder, but happened to not be noticed. That's why some FLwhore can waste few days and gain outrageous amount of pp and in most cases a score with HDFL is the limit since one additional mod would make the map impossibru. This way FLers can even drop the game and remain top 50 for the next years.
SPOILER
More competition = harder to get a high rank, is the logic behind it. Yes, FL causes a few flaws here
Thatgooey wrote:
All of these factors lead to hard maps being worth a lot of performance points. Should you care? Probably not.
SPOILER
Your post was long so I just picked out one thing I thought was rather silly. While I am ok with most of what you said (to each their own, pretty much) I just wanted to point this out because people play the game for different reasons, and you kind of contradict this statement later on your post ("play the game for the reasons YOU want") etc. Some people want to be high in the rankings to feel like they accomplished something, and that's a valid way to have fun in the game ;>
Winshley wrote:
Additionally, some old maps still tends to be a "pp gold mine". I believe this might be because of lacking dedication from pro players towards those maps.
SPOILER
Actually, from what I've gathered, it's mostly from these maps being badly timed leading to very few good accuracy scores
PP is not a measurement of skill and should therefor obviously not be viewed as one.
Because most of these hards are easy and come with an insane in the mapset. Why play something easier just to get more pp?Silynn wrote:
I look around for maps that give points, and if I think I can get a good rank on it, I go for it. Why is that desperate, just because the map so happens to be labeled "hard"?
I'm talking about lower difficulty pp farming. If the hardest map in the mapset is [Hard] then it isn't really pp farming or hard farming.
(Might still be, just not the worst kind)
Also no one cares if player rank #235843 farms pp, but it's ridiculous when a top ranked player gets all his pp from easy difficulties.
I haven't really read any of the rest of the thread, but honestly, sometimes I feel there is just a lingering jealousy that you should be higher ranked than this, this, and this person, and your excuse is that you are too lazy or whatever, but you still feel like something's missing or something.
Also, I don't think it's like people think this person is a douche because a lot of his pp came from hards or what not. And from what I've read, it's like what has been said, people feel more like "This is retarded, why should this person be rank #90 if all his best pp performance are on hards?" And in sense then blame that person for "abuse" of the system in a way I guess.
Also, I don't think it's like people think this person is a douche because a lot of his pp came from hards or what not. And from what I've read, it's like what has been said, people feel more like "This is retarded, why should this person be rank #90 if all his best pp performance are on hards?" And in sense then blame that person for "abuse" of the system in a way I guess.
Quite Simple:
Farming Hards gives a substantial amount of PP.
Freedom Dive gives similar amounts of PP.
Farming Hards gives a substantial amount of PP.
Freedom Dive gives similar amounts of PP.
I haven't really read any of the rest of the thread, but honestly, sometimes I feel there is just a lingering jealousy that you should be higher ranked than this, this, and this person, and your excuse is that you are too lazy or whatever, but you still feel like something's missing or something.It's not laziness, I'd rather say it's pride. Most of us can start farming hards, but doing so will make us another farmers. We're jealous of ranks, but we know they're not justified. That's why we whine about pp not being correctly prepared. If PP is supposed to show skill, let it do so. All of us would prefer justice, right?
nah, im sure that if you SS freedom dive with HD DT it will give more pp than any hard with HD DTLily-Kun wrote:
Quite Simple:
Farming Hards gives a substantial amount of PP.
Freedom Dive gives similar amounts of PP.
a very likely scenariosilmarilen wrote:
SS freedom dive with HD DT
If you think some guy is a PP farmer, go take their top ranks!
Probably because I can go to somebody's profile, like yours, and FC any of them with the only issue being grinding to go from that 99% achieved in a few attempts to an SS which is boring and shouldn't give that much pp for getting a few less 100s. Did this a couple months back and got free ranks whereas any insane+DT I do or rank highly on gives nothing, this also comes with the downside of my top performances being littered with hards. And while it is a problem with the system itself, I dislike those that abuse it and who are incapable of playing anything that should be possible for their rank more.
When a single map brings you from rank 344 to rank 299, I think the system should be blamed over the players. I wasn't even aiming to get PP, I just wanted a cool #1, then WHOOPS pp gold mine.
Teach me :3Saint wrote:
shilkey only cares about #1s, more people need to do dthr tho it's easy to learn
OT: I personally find SSing hards with HD DT a lot funner than FCing insanes and I'm sure there are other pp farmers that feel this way too.
For me it was because
1. I clearly think I am better than this person A. Most people who know the game think so too.
2. This person A farms pp with Hards and has a much higher pp ranking than me.
3. Random people think A is a better player than me.
That was somewhat hard to take. This was during the beginning stages of the pp rankings.
1. I clearly think I am better than this person A. Most people who know the game think so too.
2. This person A farms pp with Hards and has a much higher pp ranking than me.
3. Random people think A is a better player than me.
That was somewhat hard to take. This was during the beginning stages of the pp rankings.
Nothing.
It's a game, people will exploit the system somehow. I just deal with it, because in the end we all know who the actual pros are.
It's a game, people will exploit the system somehow. I just deal with it, because in the end we all know who the actual pros are.
Most people are looking wrong at what pp is. pp is not a system for perfectly showing a player's skill. Why? Because it's impossible. There's too many factors in a map that make it easier or harder, and different people consider different things skill (I've seen some that say HR needs more skill than DT.) It can only be an approximation, and it's a better one than ranked score.
pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.
pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.
You were right until you hit this point. Finding an effective combination of skills is much different than playing at a lower difficulty with the same reward (That would be more of a glitch in an RPG.) Also, not all PP farmers are better than the players they are ranked higher as. They are just ranked higher because they are able to farm a hard which gives a shit ton of PP._tear wrote:
pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.
PP isn't determined by the harder of map you play even. You can play easy maps with mods on them and get a really high rank. The PP system is based on accuracy and rank. Some maps do give quite a bit more than others, but still. I remember there being someone back in June-July (Banned for cheats and idk if easy/normal can still be farmed) but he played only easy and normal maps, would get #1, and was rank #130ish. Somedays I may only get 1 pp, or even none. But another, I might play a map that gives a lot and get like 6-8 from one map. Buuuuut really the pp system has a ton of easy to get around loopholes in the long run. :U
People hate pp farmers because hating pp farmers is considered cool.
Soarezi
Kalas_old
I dont hate pp farmers, I hate the pp system
The pp system was designed to show how high your skill is.
Now just answer me a simple question.
Where do you need more skill?
This map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/155913?m=0 on hard with hr+hd and getting 99% or just survive this map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24313 without any mod.
I got from the first map like 40pp and from the second absolutely 0 pp.
So yeah the pp system show how many s or ss ranks you got and how high your accuary is but it doesnt show at all how high your skill is.
The pp system was designed to show how high your skill is.
Now just answer me a simple question.
Where do you need more skill?
This map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/155913?m=0 on hard with hr+hd and getting 99% or just survive this map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24313 without any mod.
I got from the first map like 40pp and from the second absolutely 0 pp.
So yeah the pp system show how many s or ss ranks you got and how high your accuary is but it doesnt show at all how high your skill is.
Don't forget that the pp system is still 100x times better then the old ranking system btw
Don't see how, one person can play 100 hard maps on both systems and will be ranked higher than one person who has a few plays on harder maps who is able to display superior skill will be low ranked regardless. On the old ranking system, you were limited to 20m score about and that would be from an insane which are almost always harder than a hard. Don't see how playing on easier maps and ranking up faster from those then if someone was to rank up fast from playing insanes can be considered 'better'.Liut wrote:
Don't forget that the pp system is still 100x times better then the old ranking system btw
ok idk aboout you guys but when i try to get a hd dt rank that is considered easy i always mess it up and get bad accuracy
pp farming is pretty hard pp farmers are pro yo
pp farming is pretty hard pp farmers are pro yo
just grind dt hr mapsenquire wrote:
Teach me :3
Oh look it's this thread again.
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
And mainstream.knjiga wrote:
People hate pp farmers because hating pp farmers is considered cool.
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
Maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/133132 [Hard]DTHD give loads more pp than your average gowww/lks/doko/etc topdiff insane despite being far easier to FC and with good acc.lolcubes wrote:
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
The real insanes in this game are un-favored by the pp system due to low playcounts on them. It's not "most insanes", it's "the real insanes". An S on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/195305 didn't even go into my best performance but a random FC on an Andrea map did. It's really sad. People who don't want [Hard] diffs to show in their top performance are forced to avoid playing them even if they find them fun to DTHD simply because they overload PP compared to truly challenging maps.
A [Hard]DTHD like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/193436 for example really is hard, but, most of them are not, and still give far more pp.
Actually, a "real insane" would be something that doesn't have a gaping chasm between it and hard. What you're trying to describe is more like an Expert, Extreme or whatever else you'd like to call it. I really hope that this category's added soon, because I'd much appreciate the ability to differentiate between every difficulty above [Hard].
Just one map though.
I mean I know that Hards give you more than insanes but there are several reasons for that and people always turn the blind eye towards that.
To get good pp you need to play maps which have the following:
1) Scoreboard which contain people who have decently high rank, preferably higher than yours, if really high rank then it would give you more pp if you beat that person
2) Good playcount. Some maps give crazy amount of pp just because of playcount.
For bonus points, the higher your accuracy is, the better your pp gets. That's pretty much all there is to it. It's really no shocker that extremely hard maps don't reward that much pp, just because of the above reasons.
For pp to work correctly, all players must play all maps and be on the scoreboard. Only then it gets really damn accurate. I thought this was obvious.
As for pp farmers, since this is the topic, they have every right to farm. If you don't like it, beat them. That's all there is to it. Sure they can suck on some mildly hard insanes, but they still perform better than you on other maps, which is the whole point.
Just as Silynn said, Hards can only get you to a certain point, to progress further you need to be good at insanes too. Obvious proof is ShadowSoul (or Sette) vs thelewa.
I mean I know that Hards give you more than insanes but there are several reasons for that and people always turn the blind eye towards that.
To get good pp you need to play maps which have the following:
1) Scoreboard which contain people who have decently high rank, preferably higher than yours, if really high rank then it would give you more pp if you beat that person
2) Good playcount. Some maps give crazy amount of pp just because of playcount.
For bonus points, the higher your accuracy is, the better your pp gets. That's pretty much all there is to it. It's really no shocker that extremely hard maps don't reward that much pp, just because of the above reasons.
For pp to work correctly, all players must play all maps and be on the scoreboard. Only then it gets really damn accurate. I thought this was obvious.
As for pp farmers, since this is the topic, they have every right to farm. If you don't like it, beat them. That's all there is to it. Sure they can suck on some mildly hard insanes, but they still perform better than you on other maps, which is the whole point.
Just as Silynn said, Hards can only get you to a certain point, to progress further you need to be good at insanes too. Obvious proof is ShadowSoul (or Sette) vs thelewa.
So you agree that PP is flawed in nature and is a bad and misfunctional system.lolcubes wrote:
For pp to work correctly, all players must play all maps and be on the scoreboard.
There's also the fact that taking accuracy into account only works if your system is based on map difficulty and understands that it needs to value something like 90% accuracy on a very hard map higher than 99.9% on a much easier map in comparison. If your system is based on map popularity, which is an entirely irrelevant stat that should not be taken into account, then... well I can't even think of a way to solve this. That kind of system is just flawed from the core. But the whole "get 0.1% more acc for higher rank and more PP" is really silly and is a big part of what leads to the same maps being farmed instead of people wanting to try out more different maps. The system encourages you to not be diverse.
PP should just be renamed to "Magic Points" and then the whole PP farmers issue will be solved. Performance and Skill are synonymous but the PP system is something that does not show skill. It should have a different name to reflect itself correctly. And then people can farm all the PP they want without being judged for it. [Hard]s and oldmaps are magical..!
That's the thing, if everyone has a score on every map, the popularity aspect is nullified and the true competition begins.
At least that's what I believe how it works, because I have no idea how exactly pp works.
Popularity is still a good "stat" however I think it's implemented in a wrong manner perhaps. Currently, high popularity on a map would yield even higher popularity, because everyone would be focused on that particular map. If high popularity would mean less gain then the whole popularity would get evened and balanced out, because people would search for less popular maps.
This would also indirectly solve the problem of possible good maps that nobody noticed.
Just an opinion though.
At least that's what I believe how it works, because I have no idea how exactly pp works.
Popularity is still a good "stat" however I think it's implemented in a wrong manner perhaps. Currently, high popularity on a map would yield even higher popularity, because everyone would be focused on that particular map. If high popularity would mean less gain then the whole popularity would get evened and balanced out, because people would search for less popular maps.
This would also indirectly solve the problem of possible good maps that nobody noticed.
Just an opinion though.
Nope. It's not enough to just have a score for competitiveness to start.lolcubes wrote:
That's the thing, if everyone has a score on every map, the popularity aspect is nullified and the true competition begins.
Everybody would also have to try equally hard on all maps for that.
So if I have 200 retries on mythologia and still didn't FC it, but one try on some random [Hard]DTHD which I FCd and got 95%ish, I'll have to retry it 199 more times and will probably end up with an SS by then and only then it will start being "fairly matched competition".
Except you'd also need to ask all players to retry all maps the same amount as any other player did.
...it's entirely unrealistic.
There are the odd hards which give a shit tonne of pp for little to no effort but there are really few of those. Most of the hards that give lots of pp are generally hard ones that 1 or 2 people or even no one SSs with DTHD (but someone usually HDHRFLs them) and maps that have few DTHD FCs. Those are the maps that a harder than a lot of "insanes".Aqo wrote:
Maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/133132 [Hard]DTHD give loads more pp than your average gowww/lks/doko/etc topdiff insane despite being far easier to FC and with good acc.lolcubes wrote:
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
The real insanes in this game are un-favored by the pp system due to low playcounts on them. It's not "most insanes", it's "the real insanes". An S on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/195305 didn't even go into my best performance but a random FC on an Andrea map did. It's really sad. People who don't want [Hard] diffs to show in their top performance are forced to avoid playing them even if they find them fun to DTHD simply because they overload PP compared to truly challenging maps.
A [Hard]DTHD like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/193436 for example really is hard, but, most of them are not, and still give far more pp.
Rank is still valued much higher than accuracy. Unless you're #1 and you beat your score with lower accuracy. Playcount doesn't matter, results do.
While people believe that true skill means that people do insanely good shit in such a few playcount, you can't define that correctly because of this huge factor called luck. Sometimes, someone of lesser skill will do something crazy on their first try, while some of greater skill will struggle. Luck is not skill no matter how you look at it.
Every system will have it's flaws, we've been over this 1006 times now.
Let's just stay on topic please.
While people believe that true skill means that people do insanely good shit in such a few playcount, you can't define that correctly because of this huge factor called luck. Sometimes, someone of lesser skill will do something crazy on their first try, while some of greater skill will struggle. Luck is not skill no matter how you look at it.
Every system will have it's flaws, we've been over this 1006 times now.
Let's just stay on topic please.
Luck wouldn't be a factor if the score system wasn't FC-based!
The fluctuation in accuracy gain on runs on a map is very small for any player who isn't mashing mindlessly. If osu had a score system more similar to mania in how it treats combo and FC you'll have much stable-er ranking boards and more true to "skill" levels of players.
The fluctuation in accuracy gain on runs on a map is very small for any player who isn't mashing mindlessly. If osu had a score system more similar to mania in how it treats combo and FC you'll have much stable-er ranking boards and more true to "skill" levels of players.
You can't compare games which require no input for aiming with ones that do. It would eliminate the point of aiming correctly and people would just skip hard to hit notes for their yay score.
To a point it is more important. SS ranking gives a bonus to performance weighting. Rank 1 with an A gives less rank than an S with 50s, which gives less a rank 1 with an S and no 50s, which gives less than rank 1 with an SS. I am still unsure how I feel about this. Rank 1 is rank 1, yet there is still a difference.lolcubes wrote:
Rank is still valued much higher than accuracy. Unless you're #1 and you beat your score with lower accuracy. Playcount doesn't matter, results do.
While people believe that true skill means that people do insanely good shit in such a few playcount, you can't define that correctly because of this huge factor called luck. Sometimes, someone of lesser skill will do something crazy on their first try, while some of greater skill will struggle. Luck is not skill no matter how you look at it.
Every system will have it's flaws, we've been over this 1006 times now.
Let's just stay on topic please.
aim in osu is the same thing as note lanes in mania. it's the pattern level of the game. having an aim miss means you failed at reading a pattern in time to execute it comfortably. While doing this repeatedly should penalize you, one random failure like this in the middle of a map compared to one random failure like this in the end or the beginning shouldn't have a huge impact on score.lolcubes wrote:
You can't compare games which require no input for aiming with ones that do. It would eliminate the point of aiming correctly and people would just skip hard to hit notes for their yay score.