a very likely scenariosilmarilen wrote:
SS freedom dive with HD DT
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What do you have against PP farmers?
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If you think some guy is a PP farmer, go take their top ranks!
Probably because I can go to somebody's profile, like yours, and FC any of them with the only issue being grinding to go from that 99% achieved in a few attempts to an SS which is boring and shouldn't give that much pp for getting a few less 100s. Did this a couple months back and got free ranks whereas any insane+DT I do or rank highly on gives nothing, this also comes with the downside of my top performances being littered with hards. And while it is a problem with the system itself, I dislike those that abuse it and who are incapable of playing anything that should be possible for their rank more.
When a single map brings you from rank 344 to rank 299, I think the system should be blamed over the players. I wasn't even aiming to get PP, I just wanted a cool #1, then WHOOPS pp gold mine.
Teach me :3Saint wrote:
shilkey only cares about #1s, more people need to do dthr tho it's easy to learn
OT: I personally find SSing hards with HD DT a lot funner than FCing insanes and I'm sure there are other pp farmers that feel this way too.
For me it was because
1. I clearly think I am better than this person A. Most people who know the game think so too.
2. This person A farms pp with Hards and has a much higher pp ranking than me.
3. Random people think A is a better player than me.
That was somewhat hard to take. This was during the beginning stages of the pp rankings.
1. I clearly think I am better than this person A. Most people who know the game think so too.
2. This person A farms pp with Hards and has a much higher pp ranking than me.
3. Random people think A is a better player than me.
That was somewhat hard to take. This was during the beginning stages of the pp rankings.
Nothing.
It's a game, people will exploit the system somehow. I just deal with it, because in the end we all know who the actual pros are.
It's a game, people will exploit the system somehow. I just deal with it, because in the end we all know who the actual pros are.
Most people are looking wrong at what pp is. pp is not a system for perfectly showing a player's skill. Why? Because it's impossible. There's too many factors in a map that make it easier or harder, and different people consider different things skill (I've seen some that say HR needs more skill than DT.) It can only be an approximation, and it's a better one than ranked score.
pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.
pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.
You were right until you hit this point. Finding an effective combination of skills is much different than playing at a lower difficulty with the same reward (That would be more of a glitch in an RPG.) Also, not all PP farmers are better than the players they are ranked higher as. They are just ranked higher because they are able to farm a hard which gives a shit ton of PP._tear wrote:
pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.
PP isn't determined by the harder of map you play even. You can play easy maps with mods on them and get a really high rank. The PP system is based on accuracy and rank. Some maps do give quite a bit more than others, but still. I remember there being someone back in June-July (Banned for cheats and idk if easy/normal can still be farmed) but he played only easy and normal maps, would get #1, and was rank #130ish. Somedays I may only get 1 pp, or even none. But another, I might play a map that gives a lot and get like 6-8 from one map. Buuuuut really the pp system has a ton of easy to get around loopholes in the long run. :U
People hate pp farmers because hating pp farmers is considered cool.
Soarezi
Kalas_old
I dont hate pp farmers, I hate the pp system
The pp system was designed to show how high your skill is.
Now just answer me a simple question.
Where do you need more skill?
This map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/155913?m=0 on hard with hr+hd and getting 99% or just survive this map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24313 without any mod.
I got from the first map like 40pp and from the second absolutely 0 pp.
So yeah the pp system show how many s or ss ranks you got and how high your accuary is but it doesnt show at all how high your skill is.
The pp system was designed to show how high your skill is.
Now just answer me a simple question.
Where do you need more skill?
This map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/155913?m=0 on hard with hr+hd and getting 99% or just survive this map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24313 without any mod.
I got from the first map like 40pp and from the second absolutely 0 pp.
So yeah the pp system show how many s or ss ranks you got and how high your accuary is but it doesnt show at all how high your skill is.
Don't forget that the pp system is still 100x times better then the old ranking system btw
Don't see how, one person can play 100 hard maps on both systems and will be ranked higher than one person who has a few plays on harder maps who is able to display superior skill will be low ranked regardless. On the old ranking system, you were limited to 20m score about and that would be from an insane which are almost always harder than a hard. Don't see how playing on easier maps and ranking up faster from those then if someone was to rank up fast from playing insanes can be considered 'better'.Liut wrote:
Don't forget that the pp system is still 100x times better then the old ranking system btw
ok idk aboout you guys but when i try to get a hd dt rank that is considered easy i always mess it up and get bad accuracy
pp farming is pretty hard pp farmers are pro yo
pp farming is pretty hard pp farmers are pro yo
just grind dt hr mapsenquire wrote:
Teach me :3
Oh look it's this thread again.
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
And mainstream.knjiga wrote:
People hate pp farmers because hating pp farmers is considered cool.
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
Maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/133132 [Hard]DTHD give loads more pp than your average gowww/lks/doko/etc topdiff insane despite being far easier to FC and with good acc.lolcubes wrote:
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
The real insanes in this game are un-favored by the pp system due to low playcounts on them. It's not "most insanes", it's "the real insanes". An S on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/195305 didn't even go into my best performance but a random FC on an Andrea map did. It's really sad. People who don't want [Hard] diffs to show in their top performance are forced to avoid playing them even if they find them fun to DTHD simply because they overload PP compared to truly challenging maps.
A [Hard]DTHD like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/193436 for example really is hard, but, most of them are not, and still give far more pp.
Actually, a "real insane" would be something that doesn't have a gaping chasm between it and hard. What you're trying to describe is more like an Expert, Extreme or whatever else you'd like to call it. I really hope that this category's added soon, because I'd much appreciate the ability to differentiate between every difficulty above [Hard].
Just one map though.
I mean I know that Hards give you more than insanes but there are several reasons for that and people always turn the blind eye towards that.
To get good pp you need to play maps which have the following:
1) Scoreboard which contain people who have decently high rank, preferably higher than yours, if really high rank then it would give you more pp if you beat that person
2) Good playcount. Some maps give crazy amount of pp just because of playcount.
For bonus points, the higher your accuracy is, the better your pp gets. That's pretty much all there is to it. It's really no shocker that extremely hard maps don't reward that much pp, just because of the above reasons.
For pp to work correctly, all players must play all maps and be on the scoreboard. Only then it gets really damn accurate. I thought this was obvious.
As for pp farmers, since this is the topic, they have every right to farm. If you don't like it, beat them. That's all there is to it. Sure they can suck on some mildly hard insanes, but they still perform better than you on other maps, which is the whole point.
Just as Silynn said, Hards can only get you to a certain point, to progress further you need to be good at insanes too. Obvious proof is ShadowSoul (or Sette) vs thelewa.
I mean I know that Hards give you more than insanes but there are several reasons for that and people always turn the blind eye towards that.
To get good pp you need to play maps which have the following:
1) Scoreboard which contain people who have decently high rank, preferably higher than yours, if really high rank then it would give you more pp if you beat that person
2) Good playcount. Some maps give crazy amount of pp just because of playcount.
For bonus points, the higher your accuracy is, the better your pp gets. That's pretty much all there is to it. It's really no shocker that extremely hard maps don't reward that much pp, just because of the above reasons.
For pp to work correctly, all players must play all maps and be on the scoreboard. Only then it gets really damn accurate. I thought this was obvious.
As for pp farmers, since this is the topic, they have every right to farm. If you don't like it, beat them. That's all there is to it. Sure they can suck on some mildly hard insanes, but they still perform better than you on other maps, which is the whole point.
Just as Silynn said, Hards can only get you to a certain point, to progress further you need to be good at insanes too. Obvious proof is ShadowSoul (or Sette) vs thelewa.
So you agree that PP is flawed in nature and is a bad and misfunctional system.lolcubes wrote:
For pp to work correctly, all players must play all maps and be on the scoreboard.
There's also the fact that taking accuracy into account only works if your system is based on map difficulty and understands that it needs to value something like 90% accuracy on a very hard map higher than 99.9% on a much easier map in comparison. If your system is based on map popularity, which is an entirely irrelevant stat that should not be taken into account, then... well I can't even think of a way to solve this. That kind of system is just flawed from the core. But the whole "get 0.1% more acc for higher rank and more PP" is really silly and is a big part of what leads to the same maps being farmed instead of people wanting to try out more different maps. The system encourages you to not be diverse.
PP should just be renamed to "Magic Points" and then the whole PP farmers issue will be solved. Performance and Skill are synonymous but the PP system is something that does not show skill. It should have a different name to reflect itself correctly. And then people can farm all the PP they want without being judged for it. [Hard]s and oldmaps are magical..!
That's the thing, if everyone has a score on every map, the popularity aspect is nullified and the true competition begins.
At least that's what I believe how it works, because I have no idea how exactly pp works.
Popularity is still a good "stat" however I think it's implemented in a wrong manner perhaps. Currently, high popularity on a map would yield even higher popularity, because everyone would be focused on that particular map. If high popularity would mean less gain then the whole popularity would get evened and balanced out, because people would search for less popular maps.
This would also indirectly solve the problem of possible good maps that nobody noticed.
Just an opinion though.
At least that's what I believe how it works, because I have no idea how exactly pp works.
Popularity is still a good "stat" however I think it's implemented in a wrong manner perhaps. Currently, high popularity on a map would yield even higher popularity, because everyone would be focused on that particular map. If high popularity would mean less gain then the whole popularity would get evened and balanced out, because people would search for less popular maps.
This would also indirectly solve the problem of possible good maps that nobody noticed.
Just an opinion though.
Nope. It's not enough to just have a score for competitiveness to start.lolcubes wrote:
That's the thing, if everyone has a score on every map, the popularity aspect is nullified and the true competition begins.
Everybody would also have to try equally hard on all maps for that.
So if I have 200 retries on mythologia and still didn't FC it, but one try on some random [Hard]DTHD which I FCd and got 95%ish, I'll have to retry it 199 more times and will probably end up with an SS by then and only then it will start being "fairly matched competition".
Except you'd also need to ask all players to retry all maps the same amount as any other player did.
...it's entirely unrealistic.
There are the odd hards which give a shit tonne of pp for little to no effort but there are really few of those. Most of the hards that give lots of pp are generally hard ones that 1 or 2 people or even no one SSs with DTHD (but someone usually HDHRFLs them) and maps that have few DTHD FCs. Those are the maps that a harder than a lot of "insanes".Aqo wrote:
Maps like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/133132 [Hard]DTHD give loads more pp than your average gowww/lks/doko/etc topdiff insane despite being far easier to FC and with good acc.lolcubes wrote:
If people believe hard diffs with HD DT are easier than most insanes nomod, then I just don't know what to say.
The real insanes in this game are un-favored by the pp system due to low playcounts on them. It's not "most insanes", it's "the real insanes". An S on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/195305 didn't even go into my best performance but a random FC on an Andrea map did. It's really sad. People who don't want [Hard] diffs to show in their top performance are forced to avoid playing them even if they find them fun to DTHD simply because they overload PP compared to truly challenging maps.
A [Hard]DTHD like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/193436 for example really is hard, but, most of them are not, and still give far more pp.
Rank is still valued much higher than accuracy. Unless you're #1 and you beat your score with lower accuracy. Playcount doesn't matter, results do.
While people believe that true skill means that people do insanely good shit in such a few playcount, you can't define that correctly because of this huge factor called luck. Sometimes, someone of lesser skill will do something crazy on their first try, while some of greater skill will struggle. Luck is not skill no matter how you look at it.
Every system will have it's flaws, we've been over this 1006 times now.
Let's just stay on topic please.
While people believe that true skill means that people do insanely good shit in such a few playcount, you can't define that correctly because of this huge factor called luck. Sometimes, someone of lesser skill will do something crazy on their first try, while some of greater skill will struggle. Luck is not skill no matter how you look at it.
Every system will have it's flaws, we've been over this 1006 times now.
Let's just stay on topic please.
Luck wouldn't be a factor if the score system wasn't FC-based!
The fluctuation in accuracy gain on runs on a map is very small for any player who isn't mashing mindlessly. If osu had a score system more similar to mania in how it treats combo and FC you'll have much stable-er ranking boards and more true to "skill" levels of players.
The fluctuation in accuracy gain on runs on a map is very small for any player who isn't mashing mindlessly. If osu had a score system more similar to mania in how it treats combo and FC you'll have much stable-er ranking boards and more true to "skill" levels of players.
You can't compare games which require no input for aiming with ones that do. It would eliminate the point of aiming correctly and people would just skip hard to hit notes for their yay score.
To a point it is more important. SS ranking gives a bonus to performance weighting. Rank 1 with an A gives less rank than an S with 50s, which gives less a rank 1 with an S and no 50s, which gives less than rank 1 with an SS. I am still unsure how I feel about this. Rank 1 is rank 1, yet there is still a difference.lolcubes wrote:
Rank is still valued much higher than accuracy. Unless you're #1 and you beat your score with lower accuracy. Playcount doesn't matter, results do.
While people believe that true skill means that people do insanely good shit in such a few playcount, you can't define that correctly because of this huge factor called luck. Sometimes, someone of lesser skill will do something crazy on their first try, while some of greater skill will struggle. Luck is not skill no matter how you look at it.
Every system will have it's flaws, we've been over this 1006 times now.
Let's just stay on topic please.
aim in osu is the same thing as note lanes in mania. it's the pattern level of the game. having an aim miss means you failed at reading a pattern in time to execute it comfortably. While doing this repeatedly should penalize you, one random failure like this in the middle of a map compared to one random failure like this in the end or the beginning shouldn't have a huge impact on score.lolcubes wrote:
You can't compare games which require no input for aiming with ones that do. It would eliminate the point of aiming correctly and people would just skip hard to hit notes for their yay score.
You are still comparing a one dimension game mode to a two dimension game mode. That just doesn't work man.
I don't get where you get "dimensions" from.lolcubes wrote:
You are still comparing a one dimension game mode to a two dimension game mode. That just doesn't work man.
Do you think it's fine that a 99.5% play with a sliderbreak in the middle gets rewarded less than a 95% play that FC'd on the same map?
I don't hate the farmers that are DT-ing hards, but I really hate when HR+HD+FL players triumph over everyone in hards.
Actually I just hate HR+HD+FL players in general...
Unless it's something like this.
Actually I just hate HR+HD+FL players in general...
Unless it's something like this.
i can't help it if i spend 98% of my osu! playing insanes, and the other 2% playing hards, and they just happen to give a lot more pp than insane.
Yesterday I was fighting for #1 against worst fl player aka Adamqs on a particular map. I had 6087 pp for #1 HHR score with 95% acc. Then Adamqs stole it with FL, I stole it again with hr with 97% acc, got 6090pp after this. And then, he did HDFL and I eventually beat him with HHRFL with 96% acc aaaaaaaaaaaand, I ended the battle with 6089pp. Conclusion - additional mod gives NOTHING, FUCKING NOTHING AT ALL.
The example above is not as painful as this one. A particular map was my Best Performance for SSH with HDFL (I actually FLed sth, yeah). SiLviZ did HHRFL score, but soon I took the #1 back with the same mods, but 98% acc. Now this map is out of the list of my Best Performance and I lost like 20pp in the process. Please explain me where is logic.
The PERFECT COMBO rule is as funny as today's snow here during Easter. It's just ridiculous. If you even get an A but you still manage to be #1 it means you were fkin awesome because you've played a map with so much difficulties that let you gain #1 without even FCing it, so why you are getting like 1/5 of PP that would be given for PERFECT COMBO?
PP system can be so easily changed to be more fair, yet it doesn't seem like sb is working on it atm.
The example above is not as painful as this one. A particular map was my Best Performance for SSH with HDFL (I actually FLed sth, yeah). SiLviZ did HHRFL score, but soon I took the #1 back with the same mods, but 98% acc. Now this map is out of the list of my Best Performance and I lost like 20pp in the process. Please explain me where is logic.
The PERFECT COMBO rule is as funny as today's snow here during Easter. It's just ridiculous. If you even get an A but you still manage to be #1 it means you were fkin awesome because you've played a map with so much difficulties that let you gain #1 without even FCing it, so why you are getting like 1/5 of PP that would be given for PERFECT COMBO?
PP system can be so easily changed to be more fair, yet it doesn't seem like sb is working on it atm.
Yeah I have made similar experiences AmaiHachimitsu. Tried to improve one of my best performances and increased my rank significantly from a 97,5% HR score to a 95% DT score and lost like 10pp. I probably don't have to mention that my DT score was a much better performance than the previous HR one.
Are people who farm these Hards able to get lots of PP by playng nomod only?
Because me thinks a Hard that is played with DT + FL rivals a nomod Insane, so in fact these people deserve that much PP.
Because me thinks a Hard that is played with DT + FL rivals a nomod Insane, so in fact these people deserve that much PP.
Oh yeah, speaking of which.
Let's say the HDDT hards aren't as hard as their insane counterparts (with mods on the easier insanes or whatnot).
While I agree that, 1 HDDT hard shouldn't be worth more pp than an insane, if the insane is indeed harder. But one thing that these "pp farmers" have, is consistency. Some of them can go around and SS these difficulties in 1~2 tries, and instantly move to the next map and do the same. So if anything, this consistency should be rewarded in some way (allthough that's probably not what the pp system is doing currently, lol). SSing these difficulties in 1-2 tries is actually pretty hard from my experience, and it's much easier for me to, say hd+hr the insane than hd+dt and SS the Hard. People sometimes forget how easy to get 1x100 on maps.
Oh, and yes, consistency is a skil that probably quite a few lack. Just try doing the "pp farming" at the same rate as some of these "farmers" do, it's pretty hard. Then again, if you're superpro or something, you'll probably still say it's easy, but yeah.
I feel like I'm repeating myself like 2938 times in this post, so I'll just stop.
Let's say the HDDT hards aren't as hard as their insane counterparts (with mods on the easier insanes or whatnot).
While I agree that, 1 HDDT hard shouldn't be worth more pp than an insane, if the insane is indeed harder. But one thing that these "pp farmers" have, is consistency. Some of them can go around and SS these difficulties in 1~2 tries, and instantly move to the next map and do the same. So if anything, this consistency should be rewarded in some way (allthough that's probably not what the pp system is doing currently, lol). SSing these difficulties in 1-2 tries is actually pretty hard from my experience, and it's much easier for me to, say hd+hr the insane than hd+dt and SS the Hard. People sometimes forget how easy to get 1x100 on maps.
Oh, and yes, consistency is a skil that probably quite a few lack. Just try doing the "pp farming" at the same rate as some of these "farmers" do, it's pretty hard. Then again, if you're superpro or something, you'll probably still say it's easy, but yeah.
I feel like I'm repeating myself like 2938 times in this post, so I'll just stop.
CXu those people don't do it in 1-2 tries
They sit on their ass for 2 hours until the 99.9% run happens
They sit on their ass for 2 hours until the 99.9% run happens
I know that feel (except the 99.9% run never happens) orzAqo wrote:
CXu those people don't do it in 1-2 tries
They sit on their ass for 2 hours until the 99.9% run happens
If I don't get an SS within 30 tries I'm usually fucked and never gonna get it, but I rage click the retry button anyway...
I'll eventually determine I'm an inaccurate piece of shit, and proceed to drown my sorrows in chocolate milk. Once finished, I'll
text a random girl asking if I can rub my face in her cleavage. Once turned down, I generally watch some anime until I feel like
doing something, then turn on osu! again and start the cycle of orz over.