imo It's because [Hard]s in beatmaps are labeled as Insane for osu! thus making them give similar (if not the same) pp.

Like silmarilen's examples. Both [Hard]s and [Insane]s display the I star for Insane. http://puu.sh/2qaAo and http://puu.sh/2qaAO

silmarilen wrote:

ok so by using logic you showed why the one map would give more pp than the other. then lets look at another example: me.

my whole top10 performance is hd fl on incredibly easy maps yet im almost top500 pp (i used to be top500). how is that fair?
and dont tell me i used a lot of plays so its dedication, because some of them were done in less than 20 plays

ye

that map gave me 1pp
i was more talking about these ones
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/40379?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/201644?m=0

silmarilen wrote:

that map gave me 1pp
i was more talking about these ones
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/40379?m=0
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/201644?m=0

ye

If you farm PP on the main Insanes of the sets and do it with the hardest mod combination possible to achieve #1 then it's fine (aka Cookiezi farming). You can say it's not actually farming but just spamming #1s. Farming on Hards is simply wrong because you don't have enough of top tier players playing them to challenge with, which means getting the first place on them is easier than the main Insane, no matter the level of the difficulty itself. It can be as hard as the toughest Insanes, but still there's not enough competition and you just can't know how good the best players would do on them. It doesn't make the score any less impressive, but gives you additional PP that you don't deserve.

Nothing wrong with massive PP gaining, but I don't like when someone gains PP via some shit hards, my opinion about pp is:

-Hard diffs should give less pp
-Nothing I can do about it, but I dislike when 70% of top 100 are FLwhores. Every damn map with some exceptions is gonna be FLed sooner or later T.T
-96% hdhr is like SS hd, please....
-If you don't make a PERFECT COMBO, you get like 1/5 PP (or less) you would normally achieve (mostly 0pp) - YOU DIDN'T END THE SLIDER PERFECTLY? - FUCK YOU, YOU MUST SUCK AT osu!
-Why the most played maps do give MUCH more pp? Instead of encouraging people to play miscellaneous maps they play only a bunch when they want to rank up. Who cares if a map is super-popular - top #30 will give you more pp than a #1 on a map that may be even harder, but happened to not be noticed. That's why some FLwhore can waste few days and gain outrageous amount of pp and in most cases a score with HDFL is the limit since one additional mod would make the map impossibru. This way FLers can even drop the game and remain top 50 for the next years.

The sheer fact of farming pp is okay if you really deserve it. I just don't like the priorities included in calculating pp earned. Every map should be tested in sense of real difficulty (and there exists a device to do so). Ranks should be the most important and the player will be given an amount of pp depending on the harshness of the map. Both DT and HR mods change the Overall Difficulty, using these mods naturally cause the accuracy to become lower. So what's the idea behind accuracy being the base? If I did 50x 100 with hhr and "copied" the way I pressed the buttons they would all land in the hit300 window when without HR, just hidden. And poof I get the same amount of pp or even more since SS has a bonus (this one is okay tho).

People are becoming angry with farming because they sometimes do incredible scores and they can't rank up. I bet there's plenty of you who think this or that score should get more PP

I really give no fucks about rank and don't care about arbitrary numbers in front of my name. I know how good I am personally and that's all that really matters. But with points, the reason hards give so much more, is that it is a lot easier to SS them with mods. The more mods you use, the more points you get. The higher your acc is, the more points you get. AND, on top of that, if you SS a map you get a points bonus (this was stated by peppy himself and I may or may not have been the cause of this). Hard maps are also way more likely to have the most plays on them, thus deeming them to be "competitive maps", which give more PP reward. Mathematically and statistically speaking, the more plays the map has, the more competition there is. That is just the numbers speaking for themselves. Does that translate into a more interactive and skill-based environment? Probably not. Yes there is a formula to lessen the weight of play count on easier difficulties (for example, think like multiplier times .2[easy], .4[normal] .6[4star], .8[hard5star]), but that can only help so much. The reason the hards have more plays is that there are naturally more players who can play those difficulties than the insane ones. All of these factors lead to hard maps being worth a lot of performance points. Should you care? Probably not.

I don't think it's overly impressive for someone to farm hd/dt SS on 475 note hards, but to each their own. You should be focusing on making yourself better and not worrying about how many points you get for completing a map. If I went and played a bunch of hard maps and went up 200 ranks today (I can do this, it's not hard), I would not think to myself "hey I have more points now, I got better today". I didn't get any better at all. I didn't improve anything. Just my number in front of my name. Who the fuck cares? You get nothing for having the highest rank. No money. No rewards. No prizes. No free supporter. You don't get anything. If you hate someone's score so much, go beat it. Stop bitching about it on the forums. If you think you are so good and deserving of a higher rank because "oh look at me I can play insane maps and do harder things, but this person booboobooboboo", then go do exactly what they did but better. Go try and play for a number instead of for enjoyment like they do. You have to decide yourself why you play and not for the reasons others play. If you want your number to be bigger, go make it bigger. I'll keep playing my maps that I personally find fun as shit to play and I will keep playing them and working towards my own goals. Who cares about the stupid fucking number. If you wan't to get better, go get better. Don't worry about what other people think. You will start to hate the game for what it is the minute you stop playing it the way YOU want to play it and for the reasons YOU play it.

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol

Blue Dragon just pointed the biggest shit in the pp system, I love him for that.PP system is basically ACCURACY.

osu! is the only game in which hard can give more power than insane, and some people JUST CONTINUE CLAIMING that HARD+DT isn't that easy, WELL put some DT(or even HR) on insane and check again.I am simply amazed how I get pp for random nomod S on a fucking LAME map while I enter top40 or at least top100 on a harder map WITH DT and get 0~1pp each time.

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?And I don't hate those people cause everybody is free to do what he wants, what I am saying is that pp system sux.

Defacer wrote:

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?

>implying people who farm hard's can't play Insane

Defacer wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol

Blue Dragon just pointed the biggest shit in the pp system, I love him for that.PP system is basically ACCURACY.

osu! is the only game in which hard can give more power than insane, and some people JUST CONTINUE CLAIMING that HARD+DT isn't that easy, WELL put some DT(or even HR) on insane and check again.I am simply amazed how I get pp for random nomod S on a fucking LAME map while I enter top40 or at least top100 on a harder map WITH DT and get 0~1pp each time.

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?And I don't hate those people cause everybody is free to do what he wants, what I am saying is that pp system sux.

Oh no I should be ashamed and kill myself now as I have [Hard] maps as my top performance and I'm in the top #100 of global performance ranking. Wait shit I'm not anymore, lol. nvm me.

Defacer wrote:

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol

Blue Dragon just pointed the biggest shit in the pp system, I love him for that.PP system is basically ACCURACY.

osu! is the only game in which hard can give more power than insane, and some people JUST CONTINUE CLAIMING that HARD+DT isn't that easy, WELL put some DT(or even HR) on insane and check again.I am simply amazed how I get pp for random nomod S on a fucking LAME map while I enter top40 or at least top100 on a harder map WITH DT and get 0~1pp each time.

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?And I don't hate those people cause everybody is free to do what he wants, what I am saying is that pp system sux.

Ya, I don't know how RUCKER can live with himself having a [Hard] as his top performance, you are right. That jerk. GOSH! He is just a hard spammer who can't even pl-

OH WAIT HE IS RUCKER, JUST KIDDING.

Proof: http://osu.ppy.sh/b/1147?m=0

I really wish people would put less emphasis on the amount of PP they get from playing a map and care more about the fact that they got a top15 on a map in the first place. That is reward enough. That is actual progress that you can see. It's right there in front of you, you just got rank 15 on an insane map. Why do you want more? I smile every god damn time I make a top40 with mods on an insane map. It's a good feeling. I don't give a shit about the performance points, I just ranked higher than a player who I know is good, and probably better than me. I can physically see my name placed above them on the scoreboard for that song.

One of the current flaw of pp system is that it favors more on score and mod combination, rather than having separate statistics that determines what they're good at.

Some (read: "most") players favor speed on their plays, e.g: DT over HD+HR, HD+DT over HR+FL, and DT+FL over HD+HR+FL, which can be true at least on some cases. It's like an awkward way on getting easy #1 with HD+HR+FL to win over DT+FL and HD+DT plays.

I'm not even good at streams (160 BPM is my current limit), but my pp rank somehow is placed around players who probably could stream 200 BPM, all thanks to my Flashlight plays. This is why I just wished that my pp rank is worse than current, but I hate to not playing challenging maps.

Another thing is Accuracy. Some people hate certain mod combination with perfect accuracy to lose over someone with bad accuracy just because the person has additional HR mod. (Sorry, Saint and Shilkey/Hanyuu-chan, but I know someone who added you into their hate list. I actually don't care about it. ;< )

Additionally, some old maps still tends to be a "pp gold mine". I believe this might be because of lacking dedication from pro players towards those maps.

In conclusion, I don't really like how current pp system works (well... not hating it completely though). I simply played this game for fun and pretending that pp system never exists. Maybe pp system might improve someday (which I'm hoping for), but who knows?

That's my 2 cents.

Thatgooey wrote:

I really wish people would put less emphasis on the amount of PP they get from playing a map and care more about the fact that they got a top15 on a map in the first place. That is reward enough. That is actual progress that you can see. It's right there in front of you, you just got rank 15 on an insane map. Why do you want more? I smile every god damn time I make a top40 with mods on an insane map. It's a good feeling. I don't give a shit about the performance points, I just ranked higher than a player who I know is good, and probably better than me. I can physically see my name placed above them on the scoreboard for that song.

^this

Silynn wrote:

stefan: do people really think that

How I realized that, yes.

Zarerion wrote:

Defacer wrote:

On topic: I personally don't understand someone, how can he live knowing he is ranked top #100 in global performance and have Hard as his top performance o_O, I would rather quit this game.If I am top100 I would be expected to play AT LEAST insane maps, right?

>implying people who farm hard's can't play Insane

I am obviously not implying this, also apparently my words come to your head really really offensive, as I am being mocked by 2-3 people there, obviously we have language misunderstandings, also I was joking but some people just got offended by this apparently, I kinda realized when I translate directly from my language it just sucks for others, also any other addition like sarcasm etc isn't valid on the internet, ok w/e.

On topic- If I am top player(according to pp system) I won't go around and play the easier difficulty when there is A HARDER one, and that's how I am proceeding most of the time if I am not ultrabored, and go DT some hard just to see how I am gonna get pp from it while I SWEAT on a map for 20 minutes eventually just getting the epic amount of 0pp just for the experiments.
It's against any logical law of me to be able to do Insane and go for Hard, theoretically speaking not giving any examples.Maybe it's in my nature only to go for the hardest and that's unique to me(or at least rare) and other people's view are different thinking that easier diff is aok.Peace.

i farm hards with FL for more e-peen, but i upload videos of my plays to youtube frequently and i would never upload a hard map i just played for pp farm

I think everybody is open to play what they want to play. if people say that this is the wrong way to play the game, then something is obviously off. only because you wouldn't play hard diffs with HD DT to get more pp doesn't mean that it isn't ok for others to do so. in the end, you should enjoy playing the game. if your enjoyment comes from an high pp-rank achieved through many hard-maps, then so be it.

so yea, this whole vendetta against pp-farmers is pretty stupid in my opinion. if you care about the ranking, then work for a high rankingplacement.

Winshley wrote:

Another thing is Accuracy. Some people hate certain mod combination with perfect accuracy to lose over someone with bad accuracy just because the person has additional HR mod. (Sorry, Saint and Shilkey/Hanyuu-chan, but I know someone who added you into their hate list. I actually don't care about it. ;< )

shilkey only cares about #1s, more people need to do dthr tho it's easy to learn
I really never did much dt hd plays, mostly because if I try I can't get good accuracy on them. I consider myself a decent player. Do I deserve my rank? no idea
pp is fine stop whining
farming hards IS the game and ranks mean nothing

hurr durr silly large post I shouldn't have wasted my time on inc

xsrsbsns wrote:

Naturally it also looks desperate and of course no one likes that.

silmarilen wrote:

ok so by using logic you showed why the one map would give more pp than the other. then lets look at another example: me.

my whole top10 performance is hd fl on incredibly easy maps yet im almost top500 pp (i used to be top500). how is that fair?
and dont tell me i used a lot of plays so its dedication, because some of them were done in less than 20 plays

Blue Dragon wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/134551&m=0 barely gave me pp while HD+HR people get 242443932498 pp from it

I hate how this system is fully based on accuracy lol

Satonaka wrote:

imo It's because [Hard]s in beatmaps are labeled as Insane for osu! thus making them give similar (if not the same) pp.

Like silmarilen's examples. Both [Hard]s and [Insane]s display the I star for Insane. http://puu.sh/2qaAo and http://puu.sh/2qaAO

fartownik wrote:

If you farm PP on the main Insanes of the sets and do it with the hardest mod combination possible to achieve #1 then it's fine (aka Cookiezi farming). You can say it's not actually farming but just spamming #1s. Farming on Hards is simply wrong because you don't have enough of top tier players playing them to challenge with, which means getting the first place on them is easier than the main Insane, no matter the level of the difficulty itself. It can be as hard as the toughest Insanes, but still there's not enough competition and you just can't know how good the best players would do on them. It doesn't make the score any less impressive, but gives you additional PP that you don't deserve.

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

Nothing I can do about it, but I dislike when 70% of top 100 are FLwhores. Every damn map with some exceptions is gonna be FLed sooner or later T.T

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

96% hdhr is like SS hd, please....

AmaiHachimitsu wrote:

Why the most played maps do give MUCH more pp? Instead of encouraging people to play miscellaneous maps they play only a bunch when they want to rank up. Who cares if a map is super-popular - top #30 will give you more pp than a #1 on a map that may be even harder, but happened to not be noticed. That's why some FLwhore can waste few days and gain outrageous amount of pp and in most cases a score with HDFL is the limit since one additional mod would make the map impossibru. This way FLers can even drop the game and remain top 50 for the next years.

Thatgooey wrote:

All of these factors lead to hard maps being worth a lot of performance points. Should you care? Probably not.

Winshley wrote:

Additionally, some old maps still tends to be a "pp gold mine". I believe this might be because of lacking dedication from pro players towards those maps.

PP is not a measurement of skill and should therefor obviously not be viewed as one.

Silynn wrote:

I look around for maps that give points, and if I think I can get a good rank on it, I go for it. Why is that desperate, just because the map so happens to be labeled "hard"?

Because most of these hards are easy and come with an insane in the mapset. Why play something easier just to get more pp?

I'm talking about lower difficulty pp farming. If the hardest map in the mapset is [Hard] then it isn't really pp farming or hard farming.
(Might still be, just not the worst kind)

Also no one cares if player rank #235843 farms pp, but it's ridiculous when a top ranked player gets all his pp from easy difficulties.

I haven't really read any of the rest of the thread, but honestly, sometimes I feel there is just a lingering jealousy that you should be higher ranked than this, this, and this person, and your excuse is that you are too lazy or whatever, but you still feel like something's missing or something.

Also, I don't think it's like people think this person is a douche because a lot of his pp came from hards or what not. And from what I've read, it's like what has been said, people feel more like "This is retarded, why should this person be rank #90 if all his best pp performance are on hards?" And in sense then blame that person for "abuse" of the system in a way I guess.

Quite Simple:

Farming Hards gives a substantial amount of PP.

Freedom Dive gives similar amounts of PP.

I haven't really read any of the rest of the thread, but honestly, sometimes I feel there is just a lingering jealousy that you should be higher ranked than this, this, and this person, and your excuse is that you are too lazy or whatever, but you still feel like something's missing or something.

It's not laziness, I'd rather say it's pride. Most of us can start farming hards, but doing so will make us another farmers. We're jealous of ranks, but we know they're not justified. That's why we whine about pp not being correctly prepared. If PP is supposed to show skill, let it do so. All of us would prefer justice, right?

Lily-Kun wrote:

Quite Simple:

Farming Hards gives a substantial amount of PP.

Freedom Dive gives similar amounts of PP.

nah, im sure that if you SS freedom dive with HD DT it will give more pp than any hard with HD DT

silmarilen wrote:

SS freedom dive with HD DT

a very likely scenario

If you think some guy is a PP farmer, go take their top ranks!

but that would make them "pp farmers" too. ~DiLeMmA~

Probably because I can go to somebody's profile, like yours, and FC any of them with the only issue being grinding to go from that 99% achieved in a few attempts to an SS which is boring and shouldn't give that much pp for getting a few less 100s. Did this a couple months back and got free ranks whereas any insane+DT I do or rank highly on gives nothing, this also comes with the downside of my top performances being littered with hards. And while it is a problem with the system itself, I dislike those that abuse it and who are incapable of playing anything that should be possible for their rank more.

When a single map brings you from rank 344 to rank 299, I think the system should be blamed over the players. I wasn't even aiming to get PP, I just wanted a cool #1, then WHOOPS pp gold mine.

Saint wrote:

shilkey only cares about #1s, more people need to do dthr tho it's easy to learn

Teach me :3

OT: I personally find SSing hards with HD DT a lot funner than FCing insanes and I'm sure there are other pp farmers that feel this way too.

For me it was because

1. I clearly think I am better than this person A. Most people who know the game think so too.

2. This person A farms pp with Hards and has a much higher pp ranking than me.

3. Random people think A is a better player than me.

That was somewhat hard to take. This was during the beginning stages of the pp rankings.

Nothing.

It's a game, people will exploit the system somehow. I just deal with it, because in the end we all know who the actual pros are.

Most people are looking wrong at what pp is. pp is not a system for perfectly showing a player's skill. Why? Because it's impossible. There's too many factors in a map that make it easier or harder, and different people consider different things skill (I've seen some that say HR needs more skill than DT.) It can only be an approximation, and it's a better one than ranked score.

pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.

_tear wrote:

pp farmers don't cheat the system any more than an RPG player who found an effective combination of skills. They're simply good at osu, because pp is part of osu. In the end it's just a scoring system. It doesn't match what you think "skill" is, but it'll never match everyone's definition of it anyway.

You were right until you hit this point. Finding an effective combination of skills is much different than playing at a lower difficulty with the same reward (That would be more of a glitch in an RPG.) Also, not all PP farmers are better than the players they are ranked higher as. They are just ranked higher because they are able to farm a hard which gives a shit ton of PP.

PP isn't determined by the harder of map you play even. You can play easy maps with mods on them and get a really high rank. The PP system is based on accuracy and rank. Some maps do give quite a bit more than others, but still. I remember there being someone back in June-July (Banned for cheats and idk if easy/normal can still be farmed) but he played only easy and normal maps, would get #1, and was rank #130ish. Somedays I may only get 1 pp, or even none. But another, I might play a map that gives a lot and get like 6-8 from one map. Buuuuut really the pp system has a ton of easy to get around loopholes in the long run. :U

People hate pp farmers because hating pp farmers is considered cool.

Blame the system, not the players. Players like to abuse the system, what can you do? Fix it or let people do what they do.

I dont hate pp farmers, I hate the pp system
The pp system was designed to show how high your skill is.
Now just answer me a simple question.
Where do you need more skill?
This map http://osu.ppy.sh/b/155913?m=0 on hard with hr+hd and getting 99% or just survive this map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/24313 without any mod.
I got from the first map like 40pp and from the second absolutely 0 pp.
So yeah the pp system show how many s or ss ranks you got and how high your accuary is but it doesnt show at all how high your skill is.

Don't forget that the pp system is still 100x times better then the old ranking system btw