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osu! ScoreV2 Discussion

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Radobot
Personally, I do think that ScoreV1 focuses too much on combo to the point where I think that with big enough combo accuracy becomes somewhat irrelevant. This also means that penalty for miss is way too high.

But I also really don't like capped scores. If ScoreV2 is going to be capped at 1 000 000 then it might as well be just a percentage since getting maximum is always the same value.

The problem with ScoreV1 is that it's exponential:

Score = Hit Value + (Hit Value * ((Combo multiplier * Difficulty multiplier * Mod multiplier) / 25))

It's exponential because summing values in which each one is bigger that the previous one results in exponential growth. So the rate of growth increases with each new hit and resets to 0 on miss. And because this rate of growth is unbounded, even a 50 with big enough combo has bigger score gain than 300 with no combo.

Naïve solution would be to not scale hit values with combo, but that would leave combo out of the equation and make combo have no effect on the score.

My suggestion would be to scale hit values with combo, but not linearly. Instead, a function that gradually decreases its rate of growth would be used. This would result in hits achieved with high combo to have bigger impact on the score, but with a limit. This would solve the problem of ScoreV1 that resulted from unbounded combo multiplier.

Some functions that would the satisfy the property of gradually decreasing rate of growth:
  1. combo / (combo + a); where a is from open interval (0, ∞)
  2. combo^a; where a is from open interval (0, 1) [basically a root function]
So the score equation above would change to something like this:
Score = Hit Value + (Hit Value * (((Combo multiplier / (Combo multiplier + 10)) * Difficulty multiplier * Mod multiplier) / 25))
nya10
For tournament setting, I hope osu!standard scoring is like mania, where misscount matters the most (sliderbreak should be counted as miss). Although misscount should matter much more than acc imo. (although this is only suggested for tournament use, not even for new score v2 leaderboard or something, because it's not relevant to current pp algorithm)

Well it might throw off some people, but this way imo rewards player who is more consistent, while missing on the last 1/4 of the map doesn't really have much impact rather than say, missing in the middle.
Cahyono29
no matter what people said,you guys the stuff will never remove the ''slider acc" isn't it?
Caput Mortuum
what if i told you that there are also people who support slider acc?
autoteleology
What if I told you those people are wrong?

I would love to see someone justify how the positives of this change outweigh the laundry list of negatives, such as:

- Did you play for SS ranks? Well, fuck you, go redo half of them at random. Many legendary top plays possibly ruined. Get rekt Barusamikosu.
- Thousands of #1 map ranks will be reshuffled. I'm sure the holders of those records won't mind losing them at random.
- Any map designed to take advantage of the previous mechanics (Adult Toy? Give Me A Break Stop Now? etc) is now substantially altered/ruined.

What positives are we getting in return from this goalpost shifting, aside from "muh rhythm get good noob lol play more"?

Are you sure that the people who like this change are even in the majority, much less the substantial majority? Are you prepared to handle the tidal wave of complaints from thousands of players who have their play history and/or maps negatively impacted and were unaware of this decision until the moment it is foisted upon them if you find you've substantially misjudged your level of support for this?

Why can this just not be a difficulty increasing mod that people can opt into for extra points/pp instead of something that retroactively edits ten years of a game's history with the precision and subtlety of a chainsaw? Why are we punishing players for past plays when we could be rewarding them for new plays instead?
Caput Mortuum
After mapping for a while, yeah i realize slider acc is not very good. I guess being a mod is a good solution.

edit: eh, not really. There are maps with zero sliders.
Maybe give sliders their own score value and splitting the OD slider for the editor? Regular OD for circles, spinners, etc and Slider OD, with the RC forcing high Slider OD for maps with simple 1/2 rhythms.

Score wipe is still unavoidable though, if they want to fix the scoring system, or until they can find a way to convert all of the scores.
autoteleology

Eraser wrote:

Score wipe is still unavoidable though, if they want to fix the scoring system, or until they can find a way to convert all of the scores.
Converting scores would be trivial. You just run all of the plays through the same algorithm used to calculate the play normally. There is no need to wipe anything, it's a straightforward, one and done conversion.
Z4ckFairX
In my opinion the new score system is just a percentage with way to many 0s after it. If you play a map perfectly you get the 100% score witch is 1000000. I don't get what is the point of having 2 percentages showing on the screen like one being based on your accuracy and the other based on your accuracy and combo.
I'm sure that this https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/nBxoJxF.jpg looks so much better than https://imgur-archive.ppy.sh/71iYFk1.jpg also show exactly how hard and long that beatmap was and it makes you fell more like a pro.
It's also gonna to be fun to see what happens to all those EZ/HT FCs tries since your score will be capped to the 1000000*mod modifier, makes you wonder if they where worth the effort.

About the changes in slider accuracy I think that it's both good and bad. It's ok to demand of a rhythm player to play at the right rhythm at all times but what I actually don't get is what you gain from it. Every time i see a 100 on the screen after a slider i have to think what the hell i did wrong; did I click too early/late or not followed it correctly, also if you have no combo break sound or you just started a combo in the case of a 50 hit makes you wonder if you actually dropped combo or just mistimed it badly.
autoteleology

Z4ckFairX wrote:

In my opinion the new score system is just a percentage with way to many 0s after it.
IMO this is actually the point. It makes scores easier to compare and understand relative to each other instead of being a bunch of big numbers that are cool to look at but provide very little contextual information.

Z4ckFairX wrote:

About the changes in slider accuracy I think that it's both good and bad. It's ok to demand of a rhythm player to play at the right rhythm at all times but what I actually don't get is what you gain from it. Every time i see a 100 on the screen after a slider i have to think what the hell i did wrong; did I click too early/late or not followed it correctly, also if you have no combo break sound or you just started a combo in the case of a 50 hit makes you wonder if you actually dropped combo or just mistimed it badly.
My issue with this isn't that I don't think it is the right idea. My problem is that it's ten years too late to make this decision. This would be like removing the AWP from Counter-Strike. It's not even a question anymore of whether or not it makes the game better, the issue is that the game is no longer what people expect of Counter-Strike, and it changes the meta into something completely unrecognizable from the past. This is a really stupid choice to make when you have a formula that has been established for so long and lots of things have grown around this formula.
DroidBass
One recomendable stuff is not forcing a cap of 1M score regardless of the difficulty/length of a map ... if all marathons, easy, Tv sizes, etc have a limitant of 1M score people that used to play longer maps because of feeling more rewarding and worth it because of the score would just quit with indignation that an easy or even a VERY SHORT map (*cof cof, elmo & monster cookie eater AND OKDAD) would give as much score than map with even x6000 combo or longer.

For that case, you could implement limitant of scores of like 2M, 5M, 10M, 20M, 50M, 100M and so on depending the general length of a map.

Being for example...
1 - 199 clickable elements: 1M
200 - 499 clickable elements 2M
500 - 999 clickable elements 5M
1000 - 1499 clickable elements 10M
1500 - 2499 clickable elements 20M
2500 - 4000 clickable elements 50M
Over 4000 clickable elements (super long marathon) 100M.
Caput Mortuum
1m cap grants uniformity, and easier way to identify how well you do in a map. There is no real reason to use the current one really
SeishunLL
Tbh, I've always preferred playing on V2 just because of the multiplayer aspect of the game and how it has affected the competitive aspect of the game with multiplayer of course and the rise in the amount of tournaments. I remember back in the ol' days when OWC was still using ScoreV1 for tournament scoring, was just hilarious to see the massive leads teams got from one player carrying the team xD. Just too bad that it's still unranked, had so many awesome scores that weren't scored cuz I was playing V2 ;-;
Radobot
I realized I already said this.

Philosofikal wrote:

Z4ckFairX wrote:

In my opinion the new score system is just a percentage with way to many 0s after it.
IMO this is actually the point. It makes scores easier to compare and understand relative to each other instead of being a bunch of big numbers that are cool to look at but provide very little contextual information.
Then stop calling it score and drop the zeroes. For that purpose it might be even better if it was represented as a decimal number from 0.0 to 1.0 with as many decimal places as you want.

Eraser wrote:

1m cap grants uniformity, and easier way to identify how well you do in a map. There is no real reason to use the current one really
Personally, I look at score to avoid uniformity.


Philosofikal wrote:

Converting scores would be trivial. You just run all of the plays through the same algorithm used to calculate the play normally. There is no need to wipe anything, it's a straightforward, one and done conversion.

  1. Only top 500 or so plays in the map leaderboard have their replays saved and you can't recalculate the score when you don't know where the misses/50/100/300 happened.
  2. AFAIK osu! times your hits down to the millisecond, but replays are recorded only at 30fps (60 for newer ones). So even when you have a replay it still isn't enough to tell when hits happened.

So no, the data needed is gone, conversion is impossible.
-Makishima S-
Only top 500 or so plays in the map leaderboard have their replays saved and you can't recalculate the score when you don't know where the misses/50/100/300 happened.
Only 500 are available for public.
CADAEMOS
How about, we keep the slider 50 a slider 50 and not make it a miss? :idea:

Oh and for score v3 (maybe consider it for v2 already), it might be a nice idea to keep half of your combo when you break it. So you lose like hallf of ur combo at every miss.
october
Can we give slider accuracy its own skinning files for the 300/100/50 so they can be skinned out? It could make it easier for players used to the old sliders to adjust or just not be bothered by it. Thinking about how sliderends were originally a part of the game and how now most players decide to skin them out gave me this idea.
Lunanor
does this mean rrtyui's big black score will not be SS anymore? cuz i have a feeling he havent done all the sliders properly x)
Barusamikosu

Toffee wrote:

does this mean rrtyui's big black score will not be SS anymore? cuz i have a feeling he havent done all the sliders properly x)
Still an SS
https://www.reddit.com/r/osugame/commen ... ith_score/
worst fl player
I heard rumors that the new scoreV2 will only be placed on maps what are ranked after the patch is made, keeping all the old scoreboards untouched. Is this true or not?

also disable hidden sliders when the FL mod is in use with HD. Thanks
dung eater
Making sliderbraks count as a miss somehow would be nice. Getting s for stuff like that isn't fun
Barusamikosu

jaaakb wrote:

Making sliderbraks count as a miss somehow would be nice. Getting s for stuff like that isn't fun
At this point I'd even be for making missed sliderends count as misses. Getting 100s from those isn't fun.
Brainage
Everything looks cool besides slider acc, HR and DT were pretty underweighted
nikky
is the score counting system be 64-bit, 9,223,372,036,854,775,807? because i saw someone who has accumulated over the 32-bit maximum value and his scores became negative.
Akanagi
Reminder that the feedback on slideracc is still garbage and shouldn't be implemented in the first place. There's no way to tell whether you missed a sliderend or got bad accuracy on it right now and it really messes with the way you play.
Z4ckFairX

Rayne wrote:

Reminder that the feedback on slideracc is still garbage and shouldn't be implemented in the first place. There's no way to tell whether you missed a sliderend or got bad accuracy on it right now and it really messes with the way you play.

In lazer sliders have 2 accs one for the circle like a normal hit circle and one at the end of the slider. In the current osu score v2 it's not implemented like that so it's actually easy to tell what u missed.
nya10
I feel like osu!std score v2 should be more misscount based (idk how to do the math, but it should be similiar to CtB / mania , except with how you'll weight the accuracy factor). Combo scoring doesn't make sense when you miss/sliderbreak in the middle is penalized more than if you miss in the either 1/4 of the map end for example. It give more fairness value and a better measurement how to measure consistency as well.

I don't know how the actual math work but I think this is something to be thought
Facz_old
Ez maps get high score but hard maps get low score for scorev2
EZKawaii
why did ScoreV2 activated on marathon map... i don't care
Bernis
Score v2 seems so much better than w/e we have now. Especialy non-farm maps;
v1
-> you play 30 sec map, get 64% acc, miss some slider ends and a few circles at the end -> here, take a huge reward.
-> play 10 minute map, get 95%, but miss once in the middle -> Ehh, you're not worthy

v2 fixes that and introduces more competition on easier maps with slider accuracy, since it's harder to reach a perfect score.

But replacing old system for old maps is imo unfeasable EDIT: not programmically, but due to public out-cry.
One solutions I could think of is letting mappers choose if they want to use old or new system. And, perhaps, after transition period, forcing all new ranked maps use v2 scoring system?
Another solution is leaving it as a mod, and just multiplying v1's SS score by v2's percentage, allowing both systems to coexist.
Corne2Plum3
I think score v2 should be 50% combo and 50% accuracy
Akumace1
What even is the point of ScoreV2 other than for tournaments it’s useless imo.
Vincent A
Score V2 feature which make the score not relying on combo is a good thing, because it will train your aim and accuracy. But in the other hand, using score v2 will also mean there is no PP Reward. No PP rewards equals no increase in rank. Using both of these we can conclude and make a kind of expectation that, there will be a mid-rank player with a high-rank player skill which in my opinion is kinda cheating the system, but since score V2 is a legal mod, we can do nothing about it.
Zelzatter Zero

Vincent A wrote:

Score V2 feature which make the score not relying on combo is a good thing, because it will train your aim and accuracy. But in the other hand, using score v2 will also mean there is no PP Reward. No PP rewards equals no increase in rank. Using both of these we can conclude and make a kind of expectation that, there will be a mid-rank player with a high-rank player skill which in my opinion is kinda cheating the system, but since score V2 is a legal mod, we can do nothing about it.
Technically? Yes. Practically? Unlikely.

The majority of playerbase (even the new) still find ScoreV2 annoying to play, due to how strict the accuracy required. I don't really think there will be someone who main V2 atm.
Surimixin
scoreV2 it's holy shit
Simon12

Surimixin wrote:

scoreV2 it's holy shit
yeah
anaxii
I was wondering why does ScoreV2 exist and then I realised that it's only for tournaments lol
[ Sebastian ]
To be honest I really hope that ScoreV2 doesn't become required until a really long time from now.
anaxii

[ Sebastian ] wrote:

To be honest I really hope that ScoreV2 doesn't become required until a really long time from now.
+1
BlueChinchompa

[ Sebastian ] wrote:

To be honest I really hope that ScoreV2 doesn't become required until a really long time from now.
It feels really weird for mania. Being able to get 100% acc (or close to) even thought you got like 2x100.
Djemovampire
there should be a feature where you lose rank for trying to improve your scores
kaedori
so trur
anaxii

GtbBraingang wrote:

there should be a feature where you lose rank for trying to improve your scores
What
kaedori

Anaxii wrote:

GtbBraingang wrote:

there should be a feature where you lose rank for trying to improve your scores
What
scorev1
Wimpy Cursed

kaedori wrote:

Anaxii wrote:

GtbBraingang wrote:

there should be a feature where you lose rank for trying to improve your scores
What
scorev1
scorev1
anaxii

Wimpy Cursed wrote:

kaedori wrote:

Anaxii wrote:

GtbBraingang wrote:

there should be a feature where you lose rank for trying to improve your scores
What
scorev1
scorev1
💀💀💀💀💀
BlueChinchompa
Scorev3 when?
anaxii

BlueChinchompa wrote:

Scorev3 when?
Scorev4 when?
BlueChinchompa

Anaxii wrote:

BlueChinchompa wrote:

Scorev3 when?
Scorev4 when?
Scorev5 when?
w1nty1223
why do I have much worse accuracy in score v2 than in score v1? Is there any way to fix this?
BlueChinchompa

w1nty1223 wrote:

why do I have much worse accuracy in score v2 than in score v1? Is there any way to fix this?
This is because Scorev2 has slider accuracy. In normal scorev1 you can hit sliders as late as you want and you will still hit a 300/perfect.
danielhofmak
I'd like to debunk this widely held notion that score v2 is 70% combo 30% accuracy - to get 700k on NM you need to FC with around 88% accuracy, anything less and your score will be lower than 700k, which should not be possible based on the generally held believe, when it is in fact the case that you score can go below 300k if you FC with sufficiently low accuracy - the example of 270k FC with 0 dropped slider ends is attached to clearly illustrate this point.

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