Hey all,

We're just over two months away from OWC and I want to know what the community likes/dislikes about the current ScoreV2 system so we can get it perfected before OWC comes a-knocking.


Here are a few facts/talking points about the current osu! ScoreV2 system:

1. 70% of score comes from combo, the remaining 30% comes from accuracy.
2. Spinners award 500 points per tick.
3. The mod multipliers are as follows: HR - 1.10x, DT - 1.20x, FL - 1.12x, HD - 1.06x

Basically, I'm willing to experiment trying different stuff so throw out any ideas you have. I'll be checking this thread periodically but don't expect me to reply to every comment, and please _please_ don't spam me with PMs telling me to read a comment in here ;___;.

is slider acc still gonna be part of scorev2?
I'd rather it being removed tbh, just too much stress when this is added in tournaments

Are there any ideas that are being thrown around that could become a possibility soon for ScoreV2? I really like where it's at currently and it feels much more of a representation of skill than ScoreV1 matches, so that's awesome

i love it, seems like its going in the right direction

similar to pp, miss count could be incorporated into the final score. like a final multiplier. it's a good indicator of aim apart from combo count. just a thought.

StarrStyx: Define "slider acc". You mean hitting the slider start with correct precision? While most maps are not designed around it specifically, I feel like it actually should be a thing, given this is a rhythm game (and it is enforced in many other games of the same genre in a comparable fashion as well)

Smoothie World: we are open to any kind of suggestions. It has been a year since OWC passed and in order to fresh up things a little, maybe you or others have ideas in how to balance it any further to be a proper scoring for competitive environements.

I agree with Loctav - slider start circle accuracy is intended and I don't see it being changed.

Can I clarify one thing? For slider acc I remember that if the slider is hit within the 50 hitwindow, even if the player aims it properly it would still break your combo.
Is this true or not?

If its true I just dont understand why its there, cuz why is it combo breaking on sliders but not on circles?

Would it be possible to somehow "nerfe"/remove Slideraccuracy on certain sliders?
This would make it possible to let players get through BPM changes and could also be used to adapt old maps that use sliders to lead in bpm changes to scoreV2 without making them too hard too acc well (and also make them worth less so you dont have mappers spamming these to keep ScoreV1/have mappers justify every single one during modding process)

@StarrStyx: That sounds false.
@Asonate: Consistency is a key. It would not be easy/feasible/intuitive to nerf/remove slider acc on certain sliders.

Can we just keep it at "slider acc won't be changed"?

I am split on the slider accuracy, on non techincal maps it's beneficial and a fun change but on strict and ever changing rythmns that use sliders for simplification it's a disaster.
Not a fan of the overly weighed combo either, I consider accuracy to be just as important if not more important.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

This was written some time ago and never knew what to do with it, maybe you can get some ideas out of it.
http://puu.sh/qPhYM/cd5b043393.txt

It goes more into the direction of score/pp interaction though.

Kite wrote:

but on strict and ever changing rythmns that use sliders for simplification it's a disaster.

(this is regarding main game more than tourney play but)

basically my thoughts on this as well. if a mapper doesn't want stuff like that to be the focus of the difficulty in his map he shouldn't be forced to. over the past 9 years it's just become another tool in the mapper's toolbox to make certain things not pains in the ass and I don't think it's fair to throw away 9 years of development in mapping. i realize this argument comes up every time but i've yet to see a compelling defense to it that's not something along the lines of "we need to move forward"

as both a player who might be playing in the tournament and a mapper, i have to agree that slider acc is something that feels out of place and out of touch to throw randomly into the biggest tournament of the entire game

its like if you randomly changed a vital aspect of the game for the most important competition of said game, if you're gonna make a change like score v2 it shouldn't be trialed in the biggest tourney of the entire game

as for the other aspects of score v2, i think that the acc vs combo weighting is just about right, especially if slider acc is removed, because its actually slightly more than 70/30 when you think about it because 100s/50s also detract from your score

if the 50 slider break thing is still in score v2, please remove it, it doesnt make any sense, hitting a 50 should give you a 50, not a miss (that is if you even keep slider acc)

the mod balancing is good! i think its very good that HR is worth more than HD and adds an interesting dynamic to freemod

also, the score system is kinda lame from both a player and spectator perspective, is it more exciting to see 100k point totals on both sides during a tense long tiebreaker, or 4 million? i understand the difficulties and limitations that come with implementing the old score system with the new 70/30 acc weighting, but in my opinion that is the most imperative thing that needs to change

to clarify, i think score v2 is a good idea and a step in the right direction for osu, but needs a couple tweaks before its fully tested on the world stage in like THE most important tournament for standard players

i like score v1 more personally, but i know that this is the future and there's no real stopping score v2, but i think that score v2 takes away from the unique feeling and niche of osu as a rhythm game. right now, osu is much more of an aim game than a rhythm game, but that's because its pretty faithful to its source material (Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan)! Now, i know that you've all heard this a million times, but the entire basis of mapping rhythm has centered about using this system that allows sliders to be a more lenient means of hitting notes

now, you may say: mapping have evolved to that point! just let it evolve again! to which i will pose the question: what exactly are the BENEFITS of score v2 that couldn't just be added to score v1? what does slider acc bring to the game exactly? because as of right now, it not only ruins an entire genre of technical mapping (as someone who mainly plays technical maps this is a huge huge huge concern) such as slider heavy wub maps, but also DETRACTS from most, if not all current maps

and to gain what? a sense of superiority when stepmania players say "LOL osu thats not a real rhythm game!1!!!11!"

it feels as if in each staff statement regarding score v2 and slider acc, the argument always boils down to: "its a rhythm game so it should be as rhythmic as possible." but to that, i'd point out that osu has a component that no other "REAL rhythm game" has, an aim component

like gee i wonder why the hit judges aren't brutal like in other rhythm games, probably because you have to aim complex patterns while tapping to the rhythm of the song! it's what makes osu unique, and taking away the lenient nature of sliders by adding accuracy goes against the inherent design of the game and how its played

thats just my two cents about the issue, i hope you consider these points before implementing it for OWC and more importantly the game as a whole

again i think its wrong to use the biggest osu tourney to test out your new score system experiment but that happened last year so

I'd like to add that scorev2 should be kept for tournament purposes only.
In the current state of the game it makes no sense to introduce a new score system to the main game as everything revolves around PP.
Scoreboards currently only matter very little.

I would cite my most recent suggestion from the old thread but apparently you moved it to the wastelands or some other non-public area so I will just rewrite it here with a higher degree of elaboration:

Change the hitwindows of circles for the sake of reducing notelock.
In OWC we are very likely to see maps with spaced streams that heavily punish the occurence of notelock.
At the same time it can be expected from our elite players that they will only hit something that is currently a 50 when they committed a rather grave mistake. I feel that missing instead due to a lowered hit area is a legitimate punishment for entirely mistimed hits and the benefits of reduced notelock weigh more than that.
Personally I can just say that I feel cheated by the game when I hit a single as a 50 (on OD8) because I obviously messed up so hard that I do not deserve to keep combo. While I can't guarantee it, I think many good players share this experience.

So we got this sweet OD-table on the wiki:

As easy to determine the hitarea of 50s will go down about 1.66 times the value of the 300 hitarea while it is 1.25 times for the 100s area.
For casual OD this isn't that grave but especially at peak-OD (above 8) it really starts to show as the 50/100 area becomes bigger and bigger relative to the 300 hitarea.

I made this little table to elaborate the issue (picked "common" OD-values in OWC and lower for comparison):


As you can see easily, the hitarea of 300s relative to the total hitarea shrinks by a whole 9,4% from OD7 to OD10 (more than it does from OD7 to OD3).
On top of it the 300 area almost halves when comparing OD10 with OD7 while there is only a moderate change for the 100/50 hitarea.

Now this is a very big discrepancy imo. The system is very lenient regarding hitting stuff offtime while it becomes very strict for hitting on time.
The problem with this is that there is no value in having a great leniency for somehow hitting stuff when the actual sweet area is that small (20%).
On the opposite, the great leniency causes problems on certain maps with notelock and timeshifting on streams

Especially in cases such as Freedom Dive (OWC'15 finals) where the overlap is so big that you're forced to hit 50s in order to not notelock more and die it is extremely difficult to compensate for something that is only ONE miss. Now it's obvious that even with a reduction of the hitareas you can't remove the possibility of notelock on 222bpm streams but it is possible to get it down to a degree where you're not bound to automatically hit 50s and/or die and most of all it significantly reduces the mental effort you have to do in order to not trigger a sequence of notelocks off of one notelock.
tl;dr
Notelock occurs less frequently and is easier to deal with if 50/100 area is reduced.

For reference on notelock also read [Guide] Avoiding "notelock" at high BPM.
According to the values here pretty much everything at 150bpm and above is prone to notelock within streams at OD10.

I don't see any reason to not introduce a new OD-table that reduces the size of the lower judgements in order to raise this notelockborder to a bpm where a significant range of the relevant bpm is unlikely to cause notelock.
Like this for example (I just cut the areas of 100/50 by 10ms on each side):


With the 50s area being down to 80ms you are already very unlikely to notelock on 170bpm and below making misses actual misses and not timeshifting notelock-bullshit. Reducing it even further to 70ms would cover for streams up to 190bpm.
I think having such timewindows is very fair to the quality of our top 5k players.
It can significantly reduce the occurence of relatively random deaths on maps like PUPA+HR (OWC '15 Finals Freemod) where notelocking on one specific stream will cost you the map regardless of your performance in the other 110 seconds of playtime. (that being said, a 80ms window would still cause notelocking with perfect timing while 70ms wouldn't but notelocking is still likely to occur/being randomly avoided on both).
It will slightly raise the significancy of the accuracy-score as 50s will be more likely to occur and also make a performance that consistently strays far from optimal accuracy more likely for death from drain as you're more likely to miss out on the bonus-health from Katus as well.

In such a context the bonus on HR might have to get increased. As a fun spice you could keep the old judgementareas for sliders as people won't like the sliders that are delicate to hit on time being even harder.

If I messed up the sheets somehow, tell me where because I threw them together rather quickly. Also feel free to come up with different values. I just wanted to outline this problem and propose a solution, details adjustable.


-----

Another thing I'm not sure of is the drain.
With slider acc you lose out on free health from properly aiming sliders and makes the occurence of Geki more rare as well.
As far as I can see the health lost from missing sliders/sliderbreaks or rather the health gained from 100s wasn't ever adjusted to keep the maps about as hard to pass as without slideraccuracy.
Since the health is set by the mapper with v1 in mind this seems only fair for me and would also make absolutely stupid deaths on maps such as Clumsy Thoughts+HR (OWC '15 Group Stage) a less significant factor. Playing for "who survives?" just isn't that fun when you could look at a more nuanced performance of each player to determine the result instead.
The reasoning here is obviously similar to the one for notelock+PUPA. I don't want to see people not having their score counted when their performance on the map was actually good.

/edit: fixed one typo, one not-so-significant semantic and commented on the nonsense-units in my screenshots
/edit 3years later: reuploaded broken image links

are there any changes to the multipliers of difficulty-reduction mods?

Regarding combo and acc percentages, I honestly think they should be changed so that acc is 60% while combo is 40%.

I think the most important thing that anyone could ask for is to be able to test out the scoreV2 system freely. It's kinda difficult to judge how well a system will work without actually using it first-hand. And it may be just a pipe dream, but I'd be willing to see the new scores calculated alongside the old scores instead of replacing them (a la Beatmania IIDX) once this metric becomes good enough to become the primary score system.

As for an actual suggestion: Maybe implement a score cap that scales off of max combo count rather than simply capping every single map to 1 million? As far as I'm aware, the score cap was the biggest concern with the original scorev2 implementation, so this might be a decent way to address the psychological issue without deviating too much from the original calculations.

As someone who has played and staffed many tournaments with score v2, team based and not, my biggest concern (slider acc aside) is combo:score scaling.

Currently, it is actually possible for someone with 98% and a 500-600 combo on a 2400 combo map to narrowly beat out someone with a 1200 combo and 90% accuracy. The problem with this is that the score difference between the 500-600 combo and 1200 combo isn't enough to justify the consistency involved in getting the higher combo. It turns out that for a good few people, it's much harder to maintain higher combos than accuracy, even if you're heavily trained in the area of skill the map requires for you to get a higher combo.

I can't discount the fact that players can tank accuracy in a tournament, but I see the accuracy percentage as a factor of how much a player has spent their time developing their skill up to their point, while combo is represented by not only skill, but how stable they can remain during play, how familiar they are with the maps, etc.

Now, this actually isn't as much of a problem for maps in the 1000 combo range or below, since a player will have a much easier time obtaining a higher proportion of the combo, and accuracy will still play a role, just not as big of one.

My suggestion to this is to make the combo portion of score v2 linear, and decrease the scaling each time there is a combo break (preferrably after 20-40 combo or so, since when players miss, they can sometimes do it in rapid succession due to a tricky part). Some math would have to be played around with, but the concept would be something like 1x scaling to start, 0.7x after first break, 0.5x after second, etc. Also, have this scaling apply and change depending on the biggest combo, as to not punish early breaks. Ex (assumes above proportions): On a 1000 combo map, I broke 3 times and got combos of 50x, 850x, and 100x. The 850x would have normal weight, the 100x would have 0.7x weight, and the 50x wold have 0.5 weight towards my total combo score weight.

The other issue is more of a show thing, but one of the other complaints I've heard about score v2 is that it's boring to watch. People miss the big numbers of score v1, and it's not as enjoyable to see someone FC a 2k combo map to get a score less than 1 mil. My suggestion here is to just multiply the 1 mill by the max combo of the map and some constant. Ex (here I used a constant of 0.03): https://osu.ppy.sh/b/221777 would have a score of 71,640,000 for a nomod SS. This may seem silly, but I think it would make the audience as well as maybe even the players happier overall.

That's pretty much it, the weights are fine at lower combo lengths, but the combo:score ratio is messed up at higher ones.

OWC is osu!standard world cup.

it dosen't need to input a characteristic of other game modes like slider-acc stuff since that is breaking originality of osu!standard mode.

that stuff would be acutally kinda not good if you have been played osu!standard without the stuff in my opinion...

I also have tried that and felt kinda not good from the stuff.....


it's fine system though if there is no slider-acc stuff

If we have the slider acc to be the same as circle acc, that would make the difference between sliders and circles less noticeable. This would impair mappers' ability to create contrast in song components using sliders and circles.

However, I also think that as a rhythm game, it is important for the sliders to be clicked somewhat on time. Therefore, I propose having a separate OD for sliders in which the timing window for sliders is 2x longer than the timing window for circles. For example, a map has OD10. There would be +- 19.5 ms leniency for circles and +- 39 ms leniency for sliders (effectively OD 6.66~). The multiplier may be adjusted based on testing of the score system in the future.

For other components of the scoreV2 system:
I agree and second Halfslashed's idea for combo scaling. Implementation of Halfslashed's idea would further differentiate and reward high combos. This change still would make team carry (which scoreV2 tries to prevent) difficult to do as the difference between full combo score and half combo score (one miss in the middle and assume same accuracy) would be 8.75% of the score cap.

MiruHong wrote:

with this in mind maybe a change in the percentages of combo and accuracy, while adding a final multiplier for # of misses. this avoids unnecessary complication and all data can be pulled from the results screen. something like 50/50 and 0.98 or 0.99 score per miss. 0.97 would feel a little too punishing for misaiming a stream etc.

handsome wrote:

with this in mind maybe a change in the percentages of combo and accuracy, while adding a final multiplier for # of misses. this avoids unnecessary complication and all data can be pulled from the results screen. something like 50/50 and 0.98 or 0.99 score per miss. 0.97 would feel a little too punishing for misaiming a stream etc.

The problem with adding a final multiplier for misses is that it won't affect the score during gameplay, and if it did, it would cause sudden score decreases. I don't think this makes sense, especially in a competitive environment, as it'd only make the teams' performance during gameplay more ambiguous to the viewers. Misses have always counted as zero, and I believe they should be kept that way.
If anything, misses could be handled as Halfslashed has suggested, with a decreasing combo multiplier each time a miss occurs. I somewhat agree with the concept, but the numbers and scaling would have to be tweaked significantly as to avoid punishing early misses more than late misses.

When this new scoring system is implemented, will the leader boards reset? Will there be a separate leader board altogether? Or will we continue off of the leader boards we have now, making it unfair for new players? Because if we add the new scoring system, which is obviously harder, new players won't be able to progress as fast as the veteran players did.

Only thing I'm against is slider accuracy. I agree with Kaifin about it.

Might be because I'm too new, but am I the only one who thinks that losing a match bc you broke you combo at a different, maybe even harder point than your opponent, is a really stupid experience? To put to perspective: When 2 players play the same map and make only one mistake. One who make a mistake at the beginning where it feels like an entire easier difficulty but then keeps his combo until the end. And one who makes a mistake in a long hard stream near the end. To me it looks like the very foundation with combos is unfair, then again I'm very new here x)

Honestly, I think the timing of combo breaks should matter. I mean, a player that can combo during the more difficult parts should be rewarded more than someone who can only remain consistent during the slower parts of a map, but I'm not sure how something like that would be handled, aside from punishing multiple successive misses more than they currently are.

Loctav wrote:

StarrStyx: Define "slider acc". You mean hitting the slider start with correct precision? While most maps are not designed around it specifically, I feel like it actually should be a thing, given this is a rhythm game (and it is enforced in many other games of the same genre in a comparable fashion as well)

Smoothie World: we are open to any kind of suggestions. It has been a year since OWC passed and in order to fresh up things a little, maybe you or others have ideas in how to balance it any further to be a proper scoring for competitive environements.

Sliders are perfect to use on parts of songs that has wierd or unreadable timings because the way they are now. If that changes in score V2 it will be pretty annoying. For me it will be hell because I often press down both keys on sliders.

The game already has an unlimited difficulty why make it harder for everyone? because it should be correct? correct is not the same as better. Make it better instead and change the PP system so we get more interesting maps. Maybe increase the value of hitting notes on blue/yellow tics (except sliders ofcourse) that might change how PP maps look alot. Give increased PP for maps with multiple BPM/beatmap divisor,s and note density as well.

And then its rip Santa san.

smoogipooo wrote:

Hey all,
We're just over two months away from OWC and I want to know what the community likes/dislikes about the current ScoreV2 system so we can get it perfected before OWC comes a-knocking.

THIS IS NOT FINAL
Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.

smoogipooo wrote:

THIS IS NOT FINAL
Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.

smoogipooo wrote:

Please, do not discuss Star Rating and PP here.

It's been a year since v2 has been introduced and to me it looks like it has become a sideproject that is exclusively used for tournament scoring until osu!next is out. So please look at the topic in regards to how it affects tournaments and specifically OWC 2016, not how it affects pp/worse players/whatever.

Slider acc is easy. learn how to acc.

I think something like a cap (either a hard or a soft one) on the combo multiplier would work great, why don't people suggest this more?

I don't like it. Multiplayer used to be distinct and unique from singleplayer because it used a different skillset that relied on players' consistency and mental condition. Getting high combos isn't due to 'luck', it's due to a player exercising a massive amount of attention and skill to not make a single mistake over a long period. And sacrificing acc to maintain a combo was a skill in itself. But now all that is being discarded in favour of a system that strives to reflect skill as judged singleplayer ranks. Last OWC teams who were holding really high combos on long maps were losing to the other teams just because they had higher acc. I don't care if you can get 98%, 92% and 1000 combo in a tournament is much more impressive. Give accuracy a small boost but keep it about combos.

And having slider acc should be got rid of, there is no reason to change how the game plays in such a significant aspect, especially for a tournament.

Making slider acc into a difficulty increasing mod and allocating a part of the map pool to this like you do with all the other mods would be more interesting imo. It would allow a lot more freedom when it comes to map pool selection since some maps can go from being reasonable technical maps to complete shitfests when you add slider acc. Having this as a mod would allow you to include it as either a complete shitfest or a reasonable technical map.

It would also provide further depth to the freemod pool since you'd essentially have more options. IDK what a good score multiplier would be but considering it doesn't even add much difficulty to some maps probably a smaller multiplier than hidden (1.04x? or smth maybe?).

I know players (such as Cxu iirc) have made similar suggestions in the past. Even if slider accuracy is "as this game was originally intended to be played" or w/e bullshit you want to spout, I personally think adding more depth as opposed to removing depth is usually the correct design decision.

To clarify I'm not even saying to make Sv2 as a whole a mod, just the slider accuracy portion of it.

The only thing that i think should be definetly changed is the spinner bonus points weight which is to me right now just way too OP. There are maps right now where you can win simply because you can do 420rpm with like 97% and someone on SS with 370rpm might lose.. this is bullshit to me lol

The mod multipliers are as follows: HR - 1.10x, DT - 1.20x, FL - 1.12x, HD - 1.06x

Right now you can HD or HR to beat your nomod and (HD)DT to beat your (HD)HR which feels like a natural progression. You also get a chance to compete with DT scores when using FL. The above change will break this delicate balance. In my opinion the whole ScoreV2 concept is flawed and I don't understand why you want to touch ScoreV1.

scorev2 is nice as long as it stays a purely competitive/tourney system and not used for singleplayer. As stated before by Kaifin, adding slider accuracy can really throw off the dynamic of some maps as theyre intended to be played with slider leniency, though at least for the OWC2015 mappool, it wasn't a huge issue.

The mod balancing is very nice, it gives incentive to use HR for freemod and makes matches a tad more interesting.

Spinner bonus does seem a tad broken but it's not a massive issue for a 4v4 tourney like OWC since it'll mostly only make a difference in stupidly close matches.

The balance between combo and acc is nice as well, it seems pretty fair and is overall a pretty good system for gauging which team is better than the other rather than which team has the better all-star carry player.

I like what's been done but I want to highly stress it working only for the sort of competitive/tourney environment of OWC and similar tourneys and is simply not fit for use in singleplayer mode.

17 days since this thread was opened so OWC is really close already I assume?
You said that you wouldn't answer every comment which I can respect but I wonder what this discussion is for when it receives no feedback at all? Except for "slideracc will stay" which we knew before.

I'd just to just make a plea to PLEASE remove slider accuracy judgement

Other people have already explained in detail the many reasons why slider acc is not a good addition to the game, so I won't be repeating them again in this post. However, I'd like to point out that the majority of active players and mappers actually don't support slider acc, and that most people who support slider acc don't even play the game actively. Because of this, the informed minority are bashing their heads in because there's simply nothing they can do about it. I don't have any proof of this; you'll just have to take my word for it.

Firstly, I'd like to say the most skilled players will win in either system, score V1 or score V2, but that's no reason not to have the best system in place. Score V1 has been the best system for years and years, and there have been no complaints about it's use in tournaments or single player. It's a classic case: 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it". It feels to me (correct me if im wrong?) that the staff feel as if removing score V2 (or aspects of it) is a direct attack against all of the work they have done into making it. Really, all the work you have done wouldn't have been a waste because even if score V2 is removed, you've still shown to the community you care about improving the game, offered them a choice, and also reaffirmed score V1 as the best scoring system! I'd actually like to give props to the dev's for continuing to develop and update the game because that's not something you get in every community!

The problem is that when the community doesn't agree with certain changes, and the change is pushed anyway, (or vice versa, when the overwhelming majority of the community wants something changed (IMO SLIDER ACC) and it's not) then you get general dissatisfaction. Take into account the current state of CS:GO for example, that's a prime example of how the dev's have made people hate the game with their poor management of changes and updates. I won't go into depth here either because it's off topic - but the point remains that the community is here for a reason. We legitimately want to improve the game albeit all the trolling and rage that I admit comes out at times.

There's a lot of people who were strongly against slider acc in last year's discussion, but now they've given up posting on this forum (or even have quit the game) because they feel like nothing will change anyway. It's been a year since the discussions of last year on score V2 and the staff haven't taken any suggestions from the community at all. It's incredibly frustrating to have these discussions with the agenda being that nothing will happen as a result, especially when the staff are the ones who create the thread themselves for 'community input'.

This might be getting a little rant-y, so I'll cut it short. If removing slider acc is something the staff isn't even going to consider, then that's fine, just don't say something like this to get my hopes up because it's incredibly hypocritical.

Loctav wrote:

Smoothie World: we are open to any kind of suggestions. It has been a year since OWC passed and in order to fresh up things a little, maybe you or others have ideas in how to balance it any further to be a proper scoring for competitive environements.

I'd like to finish on some of the past experiences that have occurred during my (5 years yay!) stay in Osu! It's really no secret that the Osu! staff have a bad reputation, so I don't see a problem with saying it explicitly here, but there really needs to be some change if you want to satisfy the players as it is. I know people who hate the staff so much that they have quit the game, and that's not really something you want if you want your game to grow. For the past two years frustration has peaked during the OWC period as people get more and more disillusioned with their management of the tournament. I'd like to stay optimistic that things aren't as bad as I've described, because there's still time before this years OWC! Maybe it can start with some changes being made after this thread's discussion. Good luck!

If you made it through all of this, thanks for reading. I hope something can be made out of this post, it took me many hours

I hope you realise shortpotato that score v2 wouldve replaced score v1 months ago if the management or in this case peppy was really that ignorant.
Many players and mappers also felt positive about having slider accuracy in general but were concerned about the negative effects on maps where slider accuracy is not appropriate (also see Toy's post in this thread).
The answer of Loctav you quoted clearly indicates that the changes on score v2 discussed here will be "for competitive environments" aka tournaments. And tbh as a tournament scoring system I got no massive complaints about score v2 when comparing it to v1.

I'd also like to correct you in one point: There are complaints about score v1, for example the occurences of same combo different acc when the lower acc play has more score.

Just a question to all the people opposing slider accuracy: What if good accuracy was implemented as a small score bonus rather than penalizing bad accuracy?

I know it's effectively the same thing, but I feel like psychologically it would be better for the game to provide incentive for going the extra mile, rather than punishing players for playing the sliders the way they always have. (not to mention it could be balanced and adjusted more compared to simply slapping players with a 100 or a 50).

Yeah, I'm aware that many maps aren't quite designed with slider accuracy in mind, but just remember that slider accuracy implementation has been an idea for the developers even as far back as 2011. There's several reasons why it hasn't happened yet, but with all of the evolution to the game happening behind the scenes recently, I think it's the perfect time for the developers to finally try to make things work. I'm all for adding more depth to the game, as long as it doesn't cause more frustration with the people who prefer the status quo.

TakuMii wrote:

Just a question to all the people opposing slider accuracy: What if good accuracy was implemented as a small score bonus rather than penalizing bad accuracy?

I know it's effectively the same thing, but I feel like psychologically it would be better for the game to provide incentive for going the extra mile, rather than punishing players for playing the sliders the way they always have. (not to mention it could be balanced and adjusted more compared to simply slapping players with a 100 or a 50).

Yeah, I'm aware that many maps aren't quite designed with slider accuracy in mind, but just remember that slider accuracy implementation has been an idea for the developers even as far back as 2011. There's several reasons why it hasn't happened yet, but with all of the evolution to the game happening behind the scenes recently, I think it's the perfect time for the developers to finally try to make things work. I'm all for adding more depth to the game, as long as it doesn't cause more frustration with the people who prefer the status quo.

Missing out on that bonus when not hitting them correctly will feel like a penalty for players that care about acc.


Just introduce 2 different sorts of sliders, the ones with slideracc and the ones without. The ones without can be used in parts where they are essential for the player because of unexpected rhythm changes, or because it'd be unfair to make them acc'd ones (for whatever reason). I don't know why the staff is so stubborn about this issue.

Leave it up to the mappers. Old maps can be kept the way they are. Their leaderboards shall remain untouched.

Railey2 wrote:

Missing out on that bonus when not hitting them correctly will feel like a penalty for players that care about acc.

What I meant was to keep accuracy calculation as it is now, and give only score bonuses to accurate slider hits, similar to how rainbow 300s differ from standard 300s in mania (as in, you can still get 100% accuracy/SS without the bonuses, but with a lower score). I know a lot of other rhythm games take an approach like this too, so it might be a compromise worth thinking about.

...I'm just trying to come up with ways that they could implement slider accuracy without making it frustrating for people. And I highly doubt they'd want to cause a divide in the community by forcing the mappers to make the decision for them.

TakuMii wrote:

Railey2 wrote:

Missing out on that bonus when not hitting them correctly will feel like a penalty for players that care about acc.

What I meant was to keep accuracy calculation as it is now, and give only score bonuses to accurate slider hits, similar to how rainbow 300s differ from standard 300s in mania (as in, you can still get 100% accuracy/SS without the bonuses, but with a lower score). I know a lot of other rhythm games take an approach like this too, so it might be a compromise worth thinking about.

...I'm just trying to come up with ways that they could implement slider accuracy without making it frustrating for people. And I highly doubt they'd want to cause a divide in the community by forcing the mappers to make the decision for them.

hmmm

I don't think score provides enough of an incentive to care about slider acc. Personally, I don't give a shit about my score, I just want acc and combo. I know many players think the same. I think if they handle it this way, there is not much of a point in implementing it. I think slideracc should affect the pp-system.

Why do you think that giving acc'd sliders as a tool to mappers would divide the community? If some mappers want to map "old style", they can do that by just mapping old sliders.

Problem would be that new maps with new acc sliders would get a higher judgement for good accuracy, meaning that maps with simple rhythms will be even more overrated due to inflated pp from OD.
As the community is already heavily leaning towards pp-efficient maps this would probably discourage players to play "old" maps even more.

Endaris wrote:

Problem would be that new maps with new acc sliders would get a higher judgment for good accuracy, meaning that maps with simple rhythms will be even more overrated due to inflated pp from OD.
As the community is already heavily leaning towards pp-efficient maps this would probably discourage players to play "old" maps even more.

Yes, it would

unless someone thinks up an algorithm that can differentiate between rhythmically complex patterns and the ones that aren't, this will always be a problem.
just look at this mess:


Personally, I don't think that acc sliders will make it much worse than it already is.

Railey2 wrote:

Personally, I don't give a shit about my score, I just want acc and combo. I know many players think the same. I think if they handle it this way, there is not much of a point in implementing it. I think slideracc should affect the pp-system.

That's the entire issue with Score V1. Outside of tournaments and multiplayer, there's really no reason to care about score, and even in those environments, it is still pretty flawed. V2 is meant to address that, even if for the moment it only applies to tournaments. Score V2 should make people care about score, so there's no reason to brush off score-only changes.
...And honestly, even if it has 1/10th of the effect on score than it did last year, I still think it could be a possible solution for OWC. It'll provide room for adjustments, anyways.

That being said, if they did make slider accuracy affect PP, I'd still think they'd be better off implementing it as a bonus metric and giving it its own values. It'll allow it to be separately balanced from normal accuracy (allowing a greater degree of control over its effects on the PP meta), while reducing potential issues with calculating old scores (i.e. accuracy and combo percentage will stay the same, old scores with replays can be reanalyzed, old scores without replays remain the same PP value but can be easily replaced). I'm not sure how well it'd would actually work in practice, but it'd likely work better than penalizing players with 100s for not adapting.

Railey2 wrote:

Why do you think that giving acc'd sliders as a tool to mappers would divide the community? If some mappers want to map "old style", they can do that by just mapping old sliders.

The fact you're calling it an "old style" is exactly why it'd divide the community. All it would do is give players less of an incentive to play old maps while causing inconsistency with the design of new maps. I'd rather have it apply to all maps, or not at all.

I doubt that people will start to care about score if it is not related to pp. People in this game mostly care about their rank. Score isn't really important unless you play for the leaderboards, but only a very small fraction of people is able to do that.

This entire thread is about improving the score system, not for complaining about the fact that it's not related to PP. Score V1 has nothing to do with PP for a very good reason, and that's because it's fundamentally flawed.
Score already plays a role in PP within osu!mania, so I can see the same happening to standard mode if ScoreV2 ever becomes good enough to become a permanent part of the game. But I digress.

besides, my point earlier doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that score and PP aren't related