Spacing Changes: I care about consistency. If one just throws random jumps or spacing changes into a map, then it will probably play bad and just look stupid. If the spacing gradually increases or does the same thing multiple times, then sure, it's probably fine.

Hidden Sliders: I thought that these were unrankable... I played a map earlier today that had a bunch of them and it was pissing me off because they were 99% invisible.

Random Jumps: Usually depends on the map.

Slider Speeds: ^

Zig-Zag streams: oh god I hate these.

Spinners: I agree that they're really being pushed. Sometimes I'll be modding a map in editor, a fast spinner will come up, and it's so ridiculous that I bet myself that it has NO bonus, let alone 1000 or 2000. Then I'll check it in test mode, see that it's 2000 bonus, and facepalm.

Too Many Difficulties: I don't have a problem with multiple hards/insanes as long as there's ALSO a spread of other difficulties. Easy/Normal/2 Hard/2 Insane would be fine with me.

Combo Colors: Everyone needs to use their eyes and brains for this one. If it looks hard-to-read, then it most likely IS and should be pointed out and changed. Hard-to-see combo colors should be unrankable.

I'd like to add something on Zig-Zag streams:
It seems like almost everyone hates them, and so do I, but it's because they are extremly hard and I can't do them.
Though, at slower BPMs, they are really fun (not sure if the ones in Whip the Blip count, but there's the one in Bulletproof)
Thing is, it seems like as soon as something is too hard for us, we suddently give up, but that's not the way of going. How did we all get better at streams? How did we all get better at jumps? This is the same, if we start playing zigzag streams, our muscle memory will get used to it and we will also master that.

Ofcourse, there's a limit speed, and right now some of the zigzag stream are way past out skill level, which is why they are aweful, but if we start putting 1/4@130-150 bpm and slowly work it up from there, we could maybe master that too. Thing is, if the difficulty of the zigzag stream matches the overall difficulty of the map, I don't see what the problem is.

Also, I know this is not part of the discussion, but at lower BPM on longer streams, zigzags help me alot of stamina and not going off beat.

EDIT:

This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.

Very legit way of adding difficulty to the map. I don't see why one way should be accepted and another shouldn't? This whole thread is pretty much discriminating some techniques to makes a map harder, even though to me they seem as legit as any other one. It seems that you are just too used to the others to be able to accept these newer stuff.

I can't fully comment on this til tomorrow but one thing I can definitely agree on, COMBO COLORS.

I won't even play a song if it has background colors and hit circles so similar its impossible to see. Add kiai timing on it, I'll probably end up rating that map a 1, idgaf about how good the map is. I also hate skins that are SO heavy. So much shit everywhere and everything is so large. Not really a problem (seeing as how you can just delete them) but I just wanted to rage about that too.

You know what, I can't read anything you say anymore, ph0x. Days after I've started this thread you've STILL failed to realize why I have issues about anything I listed. You assume it's because I can't do these patterns, or that I don't like difficulty. If that's the case you obviously haven't seen me play. I have pride in my ability to read AND play these sorts of things. That is NOT the point. What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY. ANYBODY can make a difficult map. It'd probably take me about 20 minutes, and I'm a REALLY slow mapper. The more people actually make maps for the sake of being difficult, the closer we move to how something like Stepmania got. People make charts in that game with every note at least 2 arrows, and in AT LEAST 1/4 beat (16th note) streams. Before you even TRY to argue against me on that point, my keyboard wouldn't even ALLOW me to play those sort of charts.


Now that I've got that out of my system, if you actually DO actually know where I'm coming from, I'd be more than happy to start discussing such things again.

I try my best putting myself in your position, and I also know very well about your skills and abilities, but I still fail to get this line

What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY.

Either one of us is not being openminded (said without irony/sarcasm/etc), or we are completly not understanding eachother.

Well MY point is, YOUR view of quality is different from other peoples, and things you might consider "bad" might be "good" for other people. Of course, this turns this entire discussion into a matter of preference, which is why I've been trying to say that we need to take the likes and dislikes of MULTIPLE people (BATs and maybe MATs too), put them together and make some sort of average compromise that will please as many as possible. Because you may have seen in this thread, people agree and disagree on almost every one of the points.

Alright, i can live with that. It just seemed like your view was something along the line of "Anything that is difficult is good," especially after you defended hard to see combo colors (in irc chat) BECAUSE it makes things harder.

At least you have someone to argue the opposite viewpoint instead of having one sided complaints. Personally I don't like anything that really is a way to cheat you out of a completion or FC. It's more difficult but id rather play a song I can flow with. Of course, to some people it's boring. I just think high end players should make their own high end maps, and stop giving them shit about it.

This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

Heads up: Let's make every map look the same and therefore rankable!

Golden idea.

Seriously what is this shit? No offense to Cyclone or anybody else, but really this is not how you should be dictating mappers IMHO.

I believe ztrot has raised the issue as well to no avail, so I'm going to have to ask this:

WHY THE HELL IS ZTROT'S CONCERNS BEING DISMISSED?

Get the fuck out kid.

That's not the point. The point is, there needs to be a line between creativity and just hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I threw notes on a map whats a song.

Unfortunately, what's interpreted as "fitting the song" is fairly subjective.

Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.

Also dark on dark and light on light is a concept you will be taught in ANY art or media class. So fucking make sure your combo colors are distinct from your background. Even still you have whiners complain that it restricts creativity and shit.

Need a hug?

Get out kid?



By the way, small things like combo colors are fine, but this whole thread is becoming a "I can't SS this so don't give me this" type of shit, so no I'm not going to "get the fuck out kid."

Sorry.

Can you read.

Can you not be a retard.

Add in emo while I'm at it.

I thought it would be kind gesture to inform you you're missing the point. But I guess you're going to continue making an ass of yourself. Also from the vagueness of your argument, me screaming into my microphone and making a 5 star beatmap of it with absolutely no thought put into the note spacing and placement, Is a good map, and anyone who hates it just isnt good enough to like it. So I kindly ask you put a little more thought into your posts before putting down others or be prepared to explain yourself.

Go ahead and gather up your fail troll buddies to support you, you aren't doing a good enough job holding your own.

So are you going to propose a more convincing argument or are you just going to make personal attacks.

The definition of trolling must have changed.

Could people just, shut up ?

Gather what's left of your honor and discuss the question instead of going at each others' throats.

Also, almost done with my analysis. Posting later tonight or tomorrow, if I don't have to do some mundane task for class.

We are discussing the question.

I think there's no issue other than minor things like combo colors, those I can agree with. But other than that, to me this whole thread is pretty much a "don't put down shit I can't SS otherwise your map sucks" kind of rant thread.

But someone decided it's a personal matter so yeah shit happens.

I'm sorry your insulting of everyone in this topic came down to a personal matter.

lukewarmholiday wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11384

00:42:225 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8)

Jumps like these should be unrankable. What fucking purpose to they serve. I really want to know. I can understand jump increases during impact points. I can understand a gradual increase in spacing during a rising point in a song. I have done both.

But the song is fucking hitting a small low and THEN you get jumps?

You call those jumps?

Hah.

I would never call those jumps. Not for a second.

And I think that's where part of the problem lies...

Arbitrary increase in spacing nonetheless. My opinion on them is that people who can complete things like that wont miss them when they are gone, and those who don't like them...well they will be able to like the map more.

can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.

Well you have your thoughts.
But, Way to attack someone who hasn't even touched this thread.
yeah I think your points make alot of sense. But Ranked maps ARE RANKED.
If you wanna make new rules whatever, But really if you think about it it's the biggest insult to the mapper.
that is to go and say well all the new maps suck, mapping has only gotten better from the old days you will always see weried maps it's just gonna happen. so why attack them now?
I don't agree with everything but some points in this convo makes sense.
But I love how you just plan out dissed me thanks~

EDIT: gotta love my grammar~ :B

Chill brah, it's a joke

Todesengal wrote:

can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input

SPOILER

hurrrrrrrr

can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares about

thanks for looking

I'm sure you're at liberty to decide what osu! as a whole cares about and what they don't care about.

lol I tryed to edit lukes post instead of posting

no it's okay I'm more mad about this convo than anything.
I know that's was a joke that's how you are luke I can tell when you joke sometimes I'm not "LIKE" THAT!

I'm not even in #osu half the time you crazy bitch you

^____~

Perhaps this thread needs to get back on topic.

can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares about

I agree sometimes #osu gets really stupid, but you can only use moderate so much.

no I think it should be like #osu and talk about shit no one cares about

oh wait it already is

go Nakata go

well
why do you guys post things here
come on
make your maps better lol

PS:i am just too good so i don`t need to read the first post at all

Well, it's probably been stated before, but it is Cyclone voicing his opinions. Him, of all people has no problem actually playing these out.

He's not really whining, he's just concerned that the way maps are gradually changing to encompass these harder "issues". I think he said before that maps are just going to be harder just to be harder, therefore removing the fun factor.

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Chill brah, it's a joke

Yes, ztrot's maps are a joke.

I think the problem (what the OP bitches about) is better explained like this:

If you're playing a map, and say, "Wow, that was fucking gay," then you're disliking that element, like Cyclone and others are disliking the elements they post about.

strager shut up thanks

It's a little more deeper than expressing discontent for certain elements beatmappers use, but I guess that's an accurate summary to an extent.

The only semi accurate analogy I can give for the opinions towards these areas is some players dont mind the elements, while some people do. I just want mappers to ask themselves, will map players really miss the elements when they are gone? Jumps and spacing mixups are almost always fun when used intuitively, but when do you get to the point and when should we start moderationg when the jumps and spacing reach the point where you really get no feeling other than indifference or discontent to their usage in maps.

Hidden sliders and stuff are more along the lines of artificial difficulty and I'll leave that discussion to high end players/mappers. Since I know Ph0x and strager support them(From what I can gather) and when they go with the beat I guess I really cant say much against them.

I'm personally more concerned with the overuse/abuse of short repeating sliders inbetween streams and the like.

This whole argument still follows the whole, bigger the community is, the more it's split. When people like the maps we find repulsive, they will only listen to their supporters, because they are filling their niche. I really don't expect to be hanging around osu! as a whole much longer so I really don't know what I'm arguing for. I hardly even like my own maps, even moreso it's repulsive seeing what type of maps are getting high ratings nowadays. Personally I try to shoot to please the biggest audience possible, not shove my controversial mapping style down others throats.

Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.

There, problem solved <3

lesjuh wrote:

Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.

There, problem solved <3

First, people vote 10 if the beatmap features a background with a character whose eyes are larger than their fist.

Second, Most mappers that cause the issues in the first place have thick heads.

Ideally people would vote good maps high and mappers would consider criticism. It doesn't happen in reality because people love their work too damn much, and players just want to see their favorite anime OP ranked in some form.

Common sense usually helps.

Unfortunately, common sense is lacking in most players, from what I've gathered.

Here's the thing: the mappers who refuse to admit that they're wrong are the main ones contributing to the problem. There are people who seem to throw out the whole "You're restricting creativity" tripe that fall into that category most of the time. The thing is, just because you mapped it doesn't make it right. If someone believes it's unintuitive, possibly take it into consideration. If more than a handful of users claim for it to be unintuitive, then you're doing something wrong. Creativity is one thing, but unplayable is another.

As far as "pleasing the crowd" goes, I'm not one for it. Map the way you see it, just as long as it's playable.

making this post with little time yaaaaaay

Mapping for sake of difficulty is never a good thing. People seem to be forgetting that is a music game.

When I map, I want an end product which does it's best to emphasize the significant parts of a song while providing an interesting and appropriately challenging gameplay experience. Before you even drag your song to osu!, listen to it and ask yourself: "Okay, what are we lookin' at here. Which instruments play which role, what is the lead, and how does each instrument complement that?" If you map an entire difficulty based around the percussion just because it's fast and provides for the most difficult steps, you're missing the point (that is, unless the drums are indeed the main focus of the song in question). If I dislike your Insane map, it's not because I suck or anything. It's just I find myself unimpressed, as you've shown that you can place fast combos but you haven't demonstrated an understanding of the music itself, which is what mappers should strive for the most.

Listen for rhythm, articulation, pitch, and note length in the lead part. You should be looking to use combos, slider ends, repeats, jumps, and whatever you can to emphasize those significant details without getting so picky to the point where level design, rhythmical clarity, and flow are sacrificed. Don't restrict your map solely to the lead instrument or vocalist, but use the lead part as a central "motive" while using background instruments as recurring deviations. In that way, difficulty naturally increases with the intensity of a song: if you hear more background instruments or a change in percussion, make sure your map emphasizes the change in mood, and keep an ear out for new ways to provide added difficulty that's both rhythmically interesting and sensible... But don't forget to keep your motive intact when possible: consistency is one of the main components in a good map.

Oh yeah, and where are y'all placing breaks? When the melody of a song switches up, don't tease us by mapping the first measure and breaking for the next 3 before the chorus. Why bother setting a mood if you're just gonna abandon it? Instead, break for the full 4 measure sequence, or look for a major background change that justifies a moment of "silence" from the player. You know, like when the beat stops for a measure and the vocalist screams a catch phrase or hits a crazy high note... or whatever. Just be smart about it, and have your breaks planned out before you even place a note.

Song choice is very important. At the end of the day, some songs simply don't make for good maps regardless of how much you and I want them to. Find your breaks, think about some potential motives, and make sure you know what you're doing before you throw that IIDX track in the editor.

But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~

lukewarmholiday wrote:

But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~

But it's normal spacing to me, not jumps.

idk politics are gay just make the map fun

that's what I aim for

I don't give a flying fuck about difficulty because I just end up doing it right most of the time. I occasionally end up with sets where the hardest difficulty is an easy FC even for mediocre players, but idk I don't give a shit

have natural talent, make fun maps, win

/me is still waiting for tippy's pr0 analysis paragraph :<

This thread is a tl;dr so pardon me if this has already been said.

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:

Agree.

Cyclone wrote:

I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo,"

This rule is poorly worded. What it actually is is more like, "a suitable place for a jump is usually also a suitable place for a New Combo." One-off jumps tend to make the most sense on the transition between two musical phrases or when the line being synced changes. The same holds for New Combos.

In fact, the whole justification for jumps comes from the iNiS mapping techniques, where jumps tend to appear between patterns.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:

Are a stupid form of Fake Difficulty. Should never be used.

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:

Cyclone wrote:

This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.

^

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:

I think the current 2x slider speed implementation is stupid so I never use it. The changes are too harsh and unpredictable, adding another kind of fake difficulty.

Should we ever have access to slider speeds which aren't so stupidly extreme as powers of two, and warn the player of their presence with tick spacing, their usage still needs to make sense and fit the music.

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:

If they're small, they're deceptively easy. If they're too big, it's just yet another stupid insane pattern--the same as every other.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:

It's not the spinners themselves which are the problem; it's the mappers. Whenever anyone tries to codify common sense with a set of guidelines, there are always the douches who push those guidelines to get away with whatever kinds of crap they can. There's a reason law is so complicated.

Spinners are supposed to represent a gradual build of energy to a climax. Using them as fast objects in busy parts of the music is a plain error.

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:

Is it a matter of "too many difficulties" or "too few easy/normal difficulties"? Moskau certainly has too many. Stuff like that happens because the mapper has too big a heart and can't say no to them.

Lack of Normals and Hards is a real problem in many maps though. Either you rape your accuracy by attempting one of the many Insanes or you put up with having < 1,000,000 added to your score from the easy.

To make the game accessible to as many players as possible, having a broad variety of difficulty levels should be collaborators' first priority rather than showing off how pwnsome their insane is.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:

This is a basic UI principle. Apparently these guys don't play their own maps.


Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria. They are the bare minimum. Quality can't be codified--it's a matter of intuition. Modders should always take care to point out what they liked and didn't like even if the base criteria are met. This is what can turn an okay map into a great map and give new mappers a sense of what's liked. But mappers need to listen to this. Too many times, I've gotten a big fat NO! from some mapper refusing to change something I pointed out solely because it didn't violate the ranking criteria. (and sometimes even when it did!)

This is why I carry the "SFG disclaimer" in my signature. I'm not mandating changes. (I'm not even in the B/MAT, so I can't mandate changes. =/) I'm collaborating to help make your maps more enjoyable before they get frozen in the process of ranking.

When mapping some pattern in a way which is "out of the ordinary," always ask yourself why you're doing this and how does it make your map better.

MetalMario201 wrote:

Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria.

+1.

The true matter that Cyclone has brought up seems to have been skimmed over by pretty much everyone in this topic. Thank you to Luke and MetalMario201 for at least making mention of the concept at 64 and 74 replies. That's still too long for the rambling, though, if you ask me.

All the problems that occur frighteningly frequently in today's maps.

tl;dr: Fake difficulty is not at all a good thing.

I can agree completely on everything he has said. Although nearly all of his examples can be used well in certain setups. For example, mild zigzags in streams can add a nice touch to the aesthetics of a map while not compromising their ability to all be hit. Overlapping beats and sliders are nice in certain instances, as well. Heck, I've even seen frequent speed changes turn out a nice (albeit novel) map in Akeboshi - Wind. However, the problem comes about when these are misused, and from my experience--I'll be quite frank here--this is usually the case.

When mapping, people need to sit down and look at everything that they have done in their map, and ask themselves what elements contribute to difficulty, why, and how. It seems too many mappers stop at the why, because that's as far as they have to consider to make their map more difficult! But how they contribute to the difficulty is even more important. Is it to require the player to utilize the skills they've sharpened through play? Or perhaps it calls for them to perform discomforting actions?



I'd like to rant at Ph0x, but I'm really too tired to. However, although I'm not really in tune with how how the situation is as present, back at the time I left, there was indeed an issue of difficulty. Mappers were pushing to create more challenging beatmaps, however, the range wasn't spreading at all. While maps were becoming more challenging, the easier end of the spectrum was becoming more overlooked during mapping. Doing this crowds out new players, forcing them to sift for the limited number of current maps with lenient difficulties, or to turn to old maps for suitable starting points or practice. Although this isn't at all the point of the topic, it is an important matter, and you seem to be unaware of the common consequences of that upwards push.

Hidden Sliders: Sometime they can be well installed and do not interfere with the game, but when you have 10 super-quick super-short hidden sliders one under another, it's almost impossible to get them all.

Random Jumps: Those can be really annoying, because, sometimes, you'll be in a combo on one side of the screen, then a tenth of a second later, you're supposed to start two combos on the other side. Is it necessary to spread them as much as possible, because this isn't difficulty, it's annoyance!

Zig-Zag Combos: I actually saw once a zig-zag combo that was half-hidden by another zig-zag combo in the opposite direction. What's the big idea? Can't you put them in a straight line or do a spaced zig-zag with less notes.

Spinners: What I dislike about those are the fact that a lot of people will not only put notes just after the spinner, but sometimes the spinners will come out of the blue, be likehalf a second long, and they will be repeated 3 or 4 times in a row. The purpose of a spinner is to have the time to build up the points, not mess up your combo because you didn't know a spinner was coming.