can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares about

I agree sometimes #osu gets really stupid, but you can only use moderate so much.

no I think it should be like #osu and talk about shit no one cares about

oh wait it already is

go Nakata go

well
why do you guys post things here
come on
make your maps better lol

PS:i am just too good so i don`t need to read the first post at all

Well, it's probably been stated before, but it is Cyclone voicing his opinions. Him, of all people has no problem actually playing these out.

He's not really whining, he's just concerned that the way maps are gradually changing to encompass these harder "issues". I think he said before that maps are just going to be harder just to be harder, therefore removing the fun factor.

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Chill brah, it's a joke

Yes, ztrot's maps are a joke.

I think the problem (what the OP bitches about) is better explained like this:

If you're playing a map, and say, "Wow, that was fucking gay," then you're disliking that element, like Cyclone and others are disliking the elements they post about.

strager shut up thanks

It's a little more deeper than expressing discontent for certain elements beatmappers use, but I guess that's an accurate summary to an extent.

The only semi accurate analogy I can give for the opinions towards these areas is some players dont mind the elements, while some people do. I just want mappers to ask themselves, will map players really miss the elements when they are gone? Jumps and spacing mixups are almost always fun when used intuitively, but when do you get to the point and when should we start moderationg when the jumps and spacing reach the point where you really get no feeling other than indifference or discontent to their usage in maps.

Hidden sliders and stuff are more along the lines of artificial difficulty and I'll leave that discussion to high end players/mappers. Since I know Ph0x and strager support them(From what I can gather) and when they go with the beat I guess I really cant say much against them.

I'm personally more concerned with the overuse/abuse of short repeating sliders inbetween streams and the like.

This whole argument still follows the whole, bigger the community is, the more it's split. When people like the maps we find repulsive, they will only listen to their supporters, because they are filling their niche. I really don't expect to be hanging around osu! as a whole much longer so I really don't know what I'm arguing for. I hardly even like my own maps, even moreso it's repulsive seeing what type of maps are getting high ratings nowadays. Personally I try to shoot to please the biggest audience possible, not shove my controversial mapping style down others throats.

Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.

There, problem solved <3

lesjuh wrote:

Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.

There, problem solved <3

First, people vote 10 if the beatmap features a background with a character whose eyes are larger than their fist.

Second, Most mappers that cause the issues in the first place have thick heads.

Ideally people would vote good maps high and mappers would consider criticism. It doesn't happen in reality because people love their work too damn much, and players just want to see their favorite anime OP ranked in some form.

Common sense usually helps.

Unfortunately, common sense is lacking in most players, from what I've gathered.

Here's the thing: the mappers who refuse to admit that they're wrong are the main ones contributing to the problem. There are people who seem to throw out the whole "You're restricting creativity" tripe that fall into that category most of the time. The thing is, just because you mapped it doesn't make it right. If someone believes it's unintuitive, possibly take it into consideration. If more than a handful of users claim for it to be unintuitive, then you're doing something wrong. Creativity is one thing, but unplayable is another.

As far as "pleasing the crowd" goes, I'm not one for it. Map the way you see it, just as long as it's playable.

making this post with little time yaaaaaay

Mapping for sake of difficulty is never a good thing. People seem to be forgetting that is a music game.

When I map, I want an end product which does it's best to emphasize the significant parts of a song while providing an interesting and appropriately challenging gameplay experience. Before you even drag your song to osu!, listen to it and ask yourself: "Okay, what are we lookin' at here. Which instruments play which role, what is the lead, and how does each instrument complement that?" If you map an entire difficulty based around the percussion just because it's fast and provides for the most difficult steps, you're missing the point (that is, unless the drums are indeed the main focus of the song in question). If I dislike your Insane map, it's not because I suck or anything. It's just I find myself unimpressed, as you've shown that you can place fast combos but you haven't demonstrated an understanding of the music itself, which is what mappers should strive for the most.

Listen for rhythm, articulation, pitch, and note length in the lead part. You should be looking to use combos, slider ends, repeats, jumps, and whatever you can to emphasize those significant details without getting so picky to the point where level design, rhythmical clarity, and flow are sacrificed. Don't restrict your map solely to the lead instrument or vocalist, but use the lead part as a central "motive" while using background instruments as recurring deviations. In that way, difficulty naturally increases with the intensity of a song: if you hear more background instruments or a change in percussion, make sure your map emphasizes the change in mood, and keep an ear out for new ways to provide added difficulty that's both rhythmically interesting and sensible... But don't forget to keep your motive intact when possible: consistency is one of the main components in a good map.

Oh yeah, and where are y'all placing breaks? When the melody of a song switches up, don't tease us by mapping the first measure and breaking for the next 3 before the chorus. Why bother setting a mood if you're just gonna abandon it? Instead, break for the full 4 measure sequence, or look for a major background change that justifies a moment of "silence" from the player. You know, like when the beat stops for a measure and the vocalist screams a catch phrase or hits a crazy high note... or whatever. Just be smart about it, and have your breaks planned out before you even place a note.

Song choice is very important. At the end of the day, some songs simply don't make for good maps regardless of how much you and I want them to. Find your breaks, think about some potential motives, and make sure you know what you're doing before you throw that IIDX track in the editor.

But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~

lukewarmholiday wrote:

But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~

But it's normal spacing to me, not jumps.

idk politics are gay just make the map fun

that's what I aim for

I don't give a flying fuck about difficulty because I just end up doing it right most of the time. I occasionally end up with sets where the hardest difficulty is an easy FC even for mediocre players, but idk I don't give a shit

have natural talent, make fun maps, win

/me is still waiting for tippy's pr0 analysis paragraph :<

This thread is a tl;dr so pardon me if this has already been said.

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:

Agree.

Cyclone wrote:

I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo,"

This rule is poorly worded. What it actually is is more like, "a suitable place for a jump is usually also a suitable place for a New Combo." One-off jumps tend to make the most sense on the transition between two musical phrases or when the line being synced changes. The same holds for New Combos.

In fact, the whole justification for jumps comes from the iNiS mapping techniques, where jumps tend to appear between patterns.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:

Are a stupid form of Fake Difficulty. Should never be used.

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:

Cyclone wrote:

This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.

^

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:

I think the current 2x slider speed implementation is stupid so I never use it. The changes are too harsh and unpredictable, adding another kind of fake difficulty.

Should we ever have access to slider speeds which aren't so stupidly extreme as powers of two, and warn the player of their presence with tick spacing, their usage still needs to make sense and fit the music.

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:

If they're small, they're deceptively easy. If they're too big, it's just yet another stupid insane pattern--the same as every other.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:

It's not the spinners themselves which are the problem; it's the mappers. Whenever anyone tries to codify common sense with a set of guidelines, there are always the douches who push those guidelines to get away with whatever kinds of crap they can. There's a reason law is so complicated.

Spinners are supposed to represent a gradual build of energy to a climax. Using them as fast objects in busy parts of the music is a plain error.

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:

Is it a matter of "too many difficulties" or "too few easy/normal difficulties"? Moskau certainly has too many. Stuff like that happens because the mapper has too big a heart and can't say no to them.

Lack of Normals and Hards is a real problem in many maps though. Either you rape your accuracy by attempting one of the many Insanes or you put up with having < 1,000,000 added to your score from the easy.

To make the game accessible to as many players as possible, having a broad variety of difficulty levels should be collaborators' first priority rather than showing off how pwnsome their insane is.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:

This is a basic UI principle. Apparently these guys don't play their own maps.


Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria. They are the bare minimum. Quality can't be codified--it's a matter of intuition. Modders should always take care to point out what they liked and didn't like even if the base criteria are met. This is what can turn an okay map into a great map and give new mappers a sense of what's liked. But mappers need to listen to this. Too many times, I've gotten a big fat NO! from some mapper refusing to change something I pointed out solely because it didn't violate the ranking criteria. (and sometimes even when it did!)

This is why I carry the "SFG disclaimer" in my signature. I'm not mandating changes. (I'm not even in the B/MAT, so I can't mandate changes. =/) I'm collaborating to help make your maps more enjoyable before they get frozen in the process of ranking.

When mapping some pattern in a way which is "out of the ordinary," always ask yourself why you're doing this and how does it make your map better.

MetalMario201 wrote:

Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria.

+1.

The true matter that Cyclone has brought up seems to have been skimmed over by pretty much everyone in this topic. Thank you to Luke and MetalMario201 for at least making mention of the concept at 64 and 74 replies. That's still too long for the rambling, though, if you ask me.

All the problems that occur frighteningly frequently in today's maps.

tl;dr: Fake difficulty is not at all a good thing.

I can agree completely on everything he has said. Although nearly all of his examples can be used well in certain setups. For example, mild zigzags in streams can add a nice touch to the aesthetics of a map while not compromising their ability to all be hit. Overlapping beats and sliders are nice in certain instances, as well. Heck, I've even seen frequent speed changes turn out a nice (albeit novel) map in Akeboshi - Wind. However, the problem comes about when these are misused, and from my experience--I'll be quite frank here--this is usually the case.

When mapping, people need to sit down and look at everything that they have done in their map, and ask themselves what elements contribute to difficulty, why, and how. It seems too many mappers stop at the why, because that's as far as they have to consider to make their map more difficult! But how they contribute to the difficulty is even more important. Is it to require the player to utilize the skills they've sharpened through play? Or perhaps it calls for them to perform discomforting actions?



I'd like to rant at Ph0x, but I'm really too tired to. However, although I'm not really in tune with how how the situation is as present, back at the time I left, there was indeed an issue of difficulty. Mappers were pushing to create more challenging beatmaps, however, the range wasn't spreading at all. While maps were becoming more challenging, the easier end of the spectrum was becoming more overlooked during mapping. Doing this crowds out new players, forcing them to sift for the limited number of current maps with lenient difficulties, or to turn to old maps for suitable starting points or practice. Although this isn't at all the point of the topic, it is an important matter, and you seem to be unaware of the common consequences of that upwards push.

Hidden Sliders: Sometime they can be well installed and do not interfere with the game, but when you have 10 super-quick super-short hidden sliders one under another, it's almost impossible to get them all.

Random Jumps: Those can be really annoying, because, sometimes, you'll be in a combo on one side of the screen, then a tenth of a second later, you're supposed to start two combos on the other side. Is it necessary to spread them as much as possible, because this isn't difficulty, it's annoyance!

Zig-Zag Combos: I actually saw once a zig-zag combo that was half-hidden by another zig-zag combo in the opposite direction. What's the big idea? Can't you put them in a straight line or do a spaced zig-zag with less notes.

Spinners: What I dislike about those are the fact that a lot of people will not only put notes just after the spinner, but sometimes the spinners will come out of the blue, be likehalf a second long, and they will be repeated 3 or 4 times in a row. The purpose of a spinner is to have the time to build up the points, not mess up your combo because you didn't know a spinner was coming.