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Concern over ranked maps.

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MegaManEXE
710 posts
Here since the beginning
MegaManEXE

Beuchi-chan wrote:

Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore. :(

Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
They make sense to me :<

Maybe that's because I'm used to her style and how she uses streams when the singer holds notes instead of using sliders or spinners.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone

JarJarJacob wrote:

Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.

Cyclone wrote:

Obviously most of these would have to come into consideration on a situational basis.
On a side note i feel a couple people didn't read my post very well.



Ph0X wrote:

I won't command on all but:

Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?

streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.

I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].
For the jumps, I'm talking about the jumps that ARE indeed at COMPLETE random. Jumps can be fun, yes. They need to make sense though.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Spinners
i don't see a problem here. if there is a long vocal, and then a drum beat 1/4 right after the vocal, i think it's appropriate.

2000+ auto spinner is just a guideline, so i have been told by many many BATs.

Too Many Difficulties:
why would this bother anyone? the only thing that is annoying for is the modders. no one is forcing you to play all the difficulties, there is 1 difficultie that gives the most points and that is the only one you need to play. the other diffs are there for fun and for other people who likes other styles to play. it would be much more annoying if 4 different people had to upload their own mapset just because they wanted to make an insane for just that song.

Combo Colors:
this is indeed retarded
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of, especially if the song doesn't call for it.

Jumps and Spacing that doesn't move with the song can also be acceptable in my eyes if it's consistant and effictively can make a beat of its own.

Also learn to manipulate spinners if you think you really need to add a spiner during a SMALL vocal or some other rhythm and there is a beat shortly after. Honestly I make the spinner start 1/8th after the previous note instead of on the vocal tick so you have that much more time to complete it.

You can still have a hard map without anything listed in the first post, some of our best players may make it through it simply. Still, My mysterious mountain map is difficult for the vast majority of users to FC. But theres not much bullshit getting in the way directly for your completion of it.(Although personally I feel some spots feel a little awkward.)


Part of the reason I never finished my touhou collab is honestly, hito's and Neo@alex's parts were garbage. Near unreadable garabage.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:


Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/10989
Hey, look.

Also, I dislike it when mappers place notes with little to no volume for the hitsound. It makes it a lot harder to follow the rhythm. I don't know about anyone else, but it might just be me.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
People just need to think, do they want their map to be hard because it's bad, or do they want it to be hard...because it's hard...
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

lukewarmholiday wrote:

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,
I'm not sure if I can agree with this.
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.

Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)

So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers
Mystearica
Mystearica

strager wrote:

Beuchi-chan wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
Look at the mapper.
Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi

Mystearica wrote:

Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.
I'm not complaining about fc'ing it or not (I actually fc'd it...) I'm just giving my opinion about it.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji
tbh, I think Massive Wonders is a fine map. The streams add more to the song, imo.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

Ph0X wrote:

lukewarmholiday wrote:

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,
I'm not sure if I can agree with this.
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.

Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)

So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers
osu isn't really a game that really supports hard maps without them turning to shit.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
Spacing Changes: I care about consistency. If one just throws random jumps or spacing changes into a map, then it will probably play bad and just look stupid. If the spacing gradually increases or does the same thing multiple times, then sure, it's probably fine.

Hidden Sliders: I thought that these were unrankable... I played a map earlier today that had a bunch of them and it was pissing me off because they were 99% invisible.

Random Jumps: Usually depends on the map.

Slider Speeds: ^

Zig-Zag streams: oh god I hate these.

Spinners: I agree that they're really being pushed. Sometimes I'll be modding a map in editor, a fast spinner will come up, and it's so ridiculous that I bet myself that it has NO bonus, let alone 1000 or 2000. Then I'll check it in test mode, see that it's 2000 bonus, and facepalm.

Too Many Difficulties: I don't have a problem with multiple hards/insanes as long as there's ALSO a spread of other difficulties. Easy/Normal/2 Hard/2 Insane would be fine with me.

Combo Colors: Everyone needs to use their eyes and brains for this one. If it looks hard-to-read, then it most likely IS and should be pointed out and changed. Hard-to-see combo colors should be unrankable.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I'd like to add something on Zig-Zag streams:
It seems like almost everyone hates them, and so do I, but it's because they are extremly hard and I can't do them.
Though, at slower BPMs, they are really fun (not sure if the ones in Whip the Blip count, but there's the one in Bulletproof)
Thing is, it seems like as soon as something is too hard for us, we suddently give up, but that's not the way of going. How did we all get better at streams? How did we all get better at jumps? This is the same, if we start playing zigzag streams, our muscle memory will get used to it and we will also master that.

Ofcourse, there's a limit speed, and right now some of the zigzag stream are way past out skill level, which is why they are aweful, but if we start putting 1/4@130-150 bpm and slowly work it up from there, we could maybe master that too. Thing is, if the difficulty of the zigzag stream matches the overall difficulty of the map, I don't see what the problem is.

Also, I know this is not part of the discussion, but at lower BPM on longer streams, zigzags help me alot of stamina and not going off beat.

EDIT:
This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.
Very legit way of adding difficulty to the map. I don't see why one way should be accepted and another shouldn't? This whole thread is pretty much discriminating some techniques to makes a map harder, even though to me they seem as legit as any other one. It seems that you are just too used to the others to be able to accept these newer stuff.
yeahyeahyeahhh
osu! Alumni
2,850 posts
Joined December 2008
yeahyeahyeahhh
I can't fully comment on this til tomorrow but one thing I can definitely agree on, COMBO COLORS.

I won't even play a song if it has background colors and hit circles so similar its impossible to see. Add kiai timing on it, I'll probably end up rating that map a 1, idgaf about how good the map is. I also hate skins that are SO heavy. So much shit everywhere and everything is so large. Not really a problem (seeing as how you can just delete them) but I just wanted to rage about that too. :evil:
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
You know what, I can't read anything you say anymore, ph0x. Days after I've started this thread you've STILL failed to realize why I have issues about anything I listed. You assume it's because I can't do these patterns, or that I don't like difficulty. If that's the case you obviously haven't seen me play. I have pride in my ability to read AND play these sorts of things. That is NOT the point. What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY. ANYBODY can make a difficult map. It'd probably take me about 20 minutes, and I'm a REALLY slow mapper. The more people actually make maps for the sake of being difficult, the closer we move to how something like Stepmania got. People make charts in that game with every note at least 2 arrows, and in AT LEAST 1/4 beat (16th note) streams. Before you even TRY to argue against me on that point, my keyboard wouldn't even ALLOW me to play those sort of charts.


Now that I've got that out of my system, if you actually DO actually know where I'm coming from, I'd be more than happy to start discussing such things again.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I try my best putting myself in your position, and I also know very well about your skills and abilities, but I still fail to get this line
What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY.
Either one of us is not being openminded (said without irony/sarcasm/etc), or we are completly not understanding eachother.

Well MY point is, YOUR view of quality is different from other peoples, and things you might consider "bad" might be "good" for other people. Of course, this turns this entire discussion into a matter of preference, which is why I've been trying to say that we need to take the likes and dislikes of MULTIPLE people (BATs and maybe MATs too), put them together and make some sort of average compromise that will please as many as possible. Because you may have seen in this thread, people agree and disagree on almost every one of the points.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
Alright, i can live with that. It just seemed like your view was something along the line of "Anything that is difficult is good," especially after you defended hard to see combo colors (in irc chat) BECAUSE it makes things harder.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
At least you have someone to argue the opposite viewpoint instead of having one sided complaints. Personally I don't like anything that really is a way to cheat you out of a completion or FC. It's more difficult but id rather play a song I can flow with. Of course, to some people it's boring. I just think high end players should make their own high end maps, and stop giving them shit about it.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Heads up: Let's make every map look the same and therefore rankable!

Golden idea.

Seriously what is this shit? No offense to Cyclone or anybody else, but really this is not how you should be dictating mappers IMHO.

I believe ztrot has raised the issue as well to no avail, so I'm going to have to ask this:

WHY THE HELL IS ZTROT'S CONCERNS BEING DISMISSED?
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Get the fuck out kid.

That's not the point. The point is, there needs to be a line between creativity and just hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I threw notes on a map whats a song.

Unfortunately, what's interpreted as "fitting the song" is fairly subjective.
Last edited by lukewarmholiday , edited 1 time in total.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.

Also dark on dark and light on light is a concept you will be taught in ANY art or media class. So fucking make sure your combo colors are distinct from your background. Even still you have whiners complain that it restricts creativity and shit.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Need a hug?

Get out kid?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way, small things like combo colors are fine, but this whole thread is becoming a "I can't SS this so don't give me this" type of shit, so no I'm not going to "get the fuck out kid."

Sorry.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Can you read.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Can you not be a retard.

Add in emo while I'm at it.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I thought it would be kind gesture to inform you you're missing the point. But I guess you're going to continue making an ass of yourself. Also from the vagueness of your argument, me screaming into my microphone and making a 5 star beatmap of it with absolutely no thought put into the note spacing and placement, Is a good map, and anyone who hates it just isnt good enough to like it. So I kindly ask you put a little more thought into your posts before putting down others or be prepared to explain yourself.
Last edited by lukewarmholiday , edited 1 time in total.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Go ahead and gather up your fail troll buddies to support you, you aren't doing a good enough job holding your own.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
So are you going to propose a more convincing argument or are you just going to make personal attacks.

The definition of trolling must have changed.
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow
Could people just, shut up ?

Gather what's left of your honor and discuss the question instead of going at each others' throats.

Also, almost done with my analysis. Posting later tonight or tomorrow, if I don't have to do some mundane task for class.
Mystearica
Mystearica
We are discussing the question.

I think there's no issue other than minor things like combo colors, those I can agree with. But other than that, to me this whole thread is pretty much a "don't put down shit I can't SS otherwise your map sucks" kind of rant thread.

But someone decided it's a personal matter so yeah shit happens.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I'm sorry your insulting of everyone in this topic came down to a personal matter.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

lukewarmholiday wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11384

00:42:225 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8)

Jumps like these should be unrankable. What fucking purpose to they serve. I really want to know. I can understand jump increases during impact points. I can understand a gradual increase in spacing during a rising point in a song. I have done both.

But the song is fucking hitting a small low and THEN you get jumps?
You call those jumps?

Hah.

I would never call those jumps. Not for a second.

And I think that's where part of the problem lies...
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Arbitrary increase in spacing nonetheless. My opinion on them is that people who can complete things like that wont miss them when they are gone, and those who don't like them...well they will be able to like the map more.
Last edited by lukewarmholiday , edited 1 time in total.
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input

SPOILER
hurrrrrrrr
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.
Well you have your thoughts.
But, Way to attack someone who hasn't even touched this thread.
yeah I think your points make alot of sense. But Ranked maps ARE RANKED.
If you wanna make new rules whatever, But really if you think about it it's the biggest insult to the mapper.
that is to go and say well all the new maps suck, mapping has only gotten better from the old days you will always see weried maps it's just gonna happen. so why attack them now?
I don't agree with everything but some points in this convo makes sense.
But I love how you just plan out dissed me thanks~

EDIT: gotta love my grammar~ :B
Last edited by Yuukari-Banteki , edited 1 time in total.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Chill brah, it's a joke
Mystearica
Mystearica

Todesengal wrote:

can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input

SPOILER
hurrrrrrrr
can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares about

thanks for looking
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I'm sure you're at liberty to decide what osu! as a whole cares about and what they don't care about.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
lol I tryed to edit lukes post instead of posting :o

no it's okay I'm more mad about this convo than anything.
I know that's was a joke that's how you are luke I can tell when you joke sometimes I'm not "LIKE" THAT!
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
I'm not even in #osu half the time you crazy bitch you

^____~
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