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Concern over ranked maps.

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MegaManEXE
710 posts
Here since the beginning
MegaManEXE
Spacing Changes:
I think they're generally used okay...but maybe that's because I've gotten very good at reading approach circles that the spacing changes don't bother me too much.

Hidden Sliders:
I know, I know, I screwed up there. I saw them okay when I played but I can't assume everyone uses the same skin and score explosion graphic that I do.

Random Jumps:
I think if you're going to make a jumpy difficulty you should make the whole thing jumpy, not just throw them randomly around throughout it. Jumps only tend to fit very specific parts of songs and should be used appropriately.

Slider Speeds:
Changing slider speeds piss me off unless the actual music changes in speed. I modded a map recently that had a .5x speed slider in a 2x bpm section, that one was really weird to play. @_@

Zigzag Streams:
I kind of like those ones D:, like the ones in Hardware Store, right?

Too many Diffs:
I don't mind a lot of diffs, it gives me a fallback in case I can't fc the hardest one. But it is rather annoying to mod a map with like 6 diffs, so I can see the issue.

Combo Colors:
110% agreed. I dislike using gray because of tag, and black is like the worst combo color ever for almost anything.
Edit: This goes for if there are kiai/skin/storyboard elements too.
Last edited by MegaManEXE , edited 2 times in total.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
Thing is, it's not like there's an Easy, Normal, Hard, and 3 Insanes.

It's usually a "Normal" that is actually a Hard, and then 3 Insanes. Seriously.

I agree with pretty much all of Cyclone's post, BTW. Someone please tell us why on earth randomly changing slider velocity is a good idea. ><;
0_o
2,155 posts
Joined December 2008
0_o
I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I will say that white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
Wizard Of Orz
965 posts
Joined May 2008
Wizard Of Orz
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I won't command on all but:

Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?

streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.

I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].


Slider Speeds:
Well I sounded like a noob asking in IRC how to change slidervelocity, realizing after that you meant by changing the bpm to 0.5/2x. This would entirely depend on the base bpm and slider velocity. I'd show you my current map I'm working on as an example, but I need to wake 7 more days before one of my maps gets graveyarded. Like with the random jumps, if it follows a rythm and is used in a constant manner during the entire map, then I believe it's acceptable.


Too many Difficulties:
I would of said yes to that a month ago, when I actually cared about score, but right now, I'd rather have 4 fun beatmaps to play per songs than only 1. But I will still agree with you on this. Though, it would just result in many different versions of the same song (just like badapple or agony).

Combo colors:
Oh god yes.
And also aweful skins.
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?
Totally agree with this, I hate spinners and how people use them. =(

0_o wrote:

white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
That's one of the multiple reasons of why I hate Kiai -w-;

And if I can... I would like to add 2 more things to this list:

Kiai Fountains: Yeah those fountains emphasize the "epic" part of the song, but I want to point this out:
SPOILER
In this case, the Kiai Fountains block those 2 circles (1/1 notes 160bpm, if necessary) and make them really hard to read. >_<

Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore. :(

Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S


Well... they aren't probably so strong reasons, so you can ignore them if you want xD...
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:

(This is worded in a way that was directed at the BATs)
Well, we probably brought this upon ourselves, but people sometimes have a tendency to change spacing by as much as a factor of 2 every other combo. I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo," "If you're going to use a jump, start a new combo," etc. So people naturally think "so we just make a new combo and we can change the spacing however we please?" ...well, according to the rule we made, yes.
Highly situational and subjective. Destiny has some spacing changes which I and some of my buddies feel are very natural but others are terribly confused by it.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:


OK, if there's a slider under a note, and that slider is a really short repeating slider, it's invisible. Maybe not so much in the editor, but in play there's a giant "300!" blocking your vision. (or whatever judgment your timing received)

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2314
I only accept this if the timings are consistent. 1/2 slider, 1/2 pause, 1/2 slider, 1/2 pause, hit circle, for example.

Cyclone wrote:

Less hidden, but almost as hard to read are 1 circle and 1 slider 1/2 apart in length (think roughly 160 BPM) and the slider endpoint is overtop/underneath the circle. The question is: Is it over or under? Very hard to distinguish at a glance, meaning very hard to read correctly during play.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (oh hey look, this is also used in another point entirely involving spinners.)
These are harder to read for me (maybe due to my skin). Sometimes they work (high OD, 8-10) but most of the time they're horrible and shouldn't be rankable. Not everyone uses snaking sliders.

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:


Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
You can say "Random [Insert some beatmap technique here]" and say it's bad, and it probably is.

Whatever fits.

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:


People seem to have some notion that changing slider velocity every other beat is a GOOD THING. I've asked SEVERAL TIMES why?, but I never get a straightforward answer. I want one. Somebody please help me on this.
Same as with "random jumps".

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:


These are streams (think faster streams, upwards of marisa speed) that have every other note aligned in 2 separate rows are columns in such a way you have to zig-zag your cursor. Unfortunately, zig-zag'ing like that is near impossible, so players are forced to find the middle point between the 2 rows, and move in a straight line. This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.

Notes 4-15: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2313
I agree this is a retarded fad.

A good example of how I DO like zig-zag streams: KOTOKO - Princess Bride!

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:


I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (notes just after spinner)
inorite

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:


Mainly the result of Guest Difficulties, which is why I tried taking an extreme stance against them a while back. Mappers will accept, or even ASK for difficulties in which they've already done. There should only be ONE insane. There should only be ONE hard. So on and so forth. I'm pretty sure I've seen a map with like 4 insanes before.

http://up.ppy.sh/files/untitled-56.jpg
I think subjectivity is part of the reason why this happens. If a bunch of people complain about one insane, and the mapper is stubborn, sometimes another insane will be made. And maybe another.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:


http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2347
Notice the white on white, and the black on black.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2348
Notice how hard the approach circle is to see.

Basically you shouldn't have to struggle to see the circles or the approach circles. This should take the BG into account.
This should be stopped at the modding stage. Unacceptable.

Either change the combo colours or change the background.

This is why I see value in having many modders, and gives more reason why self-kd-stars shouldn't be there. That's another debate for another time, though.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

Beuchi-chan wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
Look at the mapper.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:
I noticed that sometimes too, but actually i don't mind. Also, i think we need maps of all kinds, so even this thing shouldn't be a problem if used well.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:
True, but sometimes the slider is visible before getting the 300. The main problem anyway, is finding maps where that works (there are a few, but yeah, i guess sometimes it's as you say)

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:
That's also true, but i don't see the problem anyway. If the mapper wants to be "mean" just let him be. Usually these things are readable anyway so the player has two choices: stop playing that map or accepting the challenge and trying again.

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:
Then let me ask WHY shouldn't this be allowed? Many maps have this feature and many of them use it well, so where's the problem?
Some users find that fun and challenging, other users hate that, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed because of that.

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:
LOL Usatei. Well, about that, since i'm the mapper, i can say this: that map is from more than a year ago and standards were different. I wanted to make a really hard map for approval, but linear streams were boring, so i tried that (that was my first time using that mapping technique). I put HP Drain 3 to avoid people getting killed for those streams. Also, i can't play that (and many other people can't) but actually the map IS fun (ask people, you should find some who will tell you "That map is really cruel but it's fun", i think). So again, If a mapper wants to be a asshole the player can just avoid playing those maps.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
That's true too, and i hate that use of spinners too, but i also have to say that some maps used that thing quite well (I mean, remember Wizards in Winter? That one is still awesome). Again, that's up to the mapper. Actually, the Auto+2000 "rule" still is useless to me, imho spinner only have to be at least 100'd without problems, but that's me (yeah, i don't dislike insta-spinners, as long as they have sense).

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:
What's the problem? OK, since everyone doesn't know that and i'm getting tired of seeing that map being brought up for that reason, here's the story: xxheroxx made that map by himself, it had Easy, Normal and Hard. Then people in #italian thought the song was cool and decided to make more difficulties for that one. It went up to 8 difficulties in a bunch of days. Then, xxheroxx removed Easy and Hard because we got told that a mapset can't have more than 6 difficulties and he didn't want to remove guest difficulties.
I don't know why all difficulties turned out to be insane, but i gues that's what you want to map when you hear the song.
To get it straight, i think some songs call more for Hard and Insane, and other songs fit better with Easy and Normal. Again, as long as the map has two difficulties, i don't care which difficulties they are.
That's my opinion, i know the system is different but i really don't mind if mappers don't feel like adding Normals. I tell that to the mappers because i think adding easier difficulties should be done for common sense.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:
Again that's true and i think this is a completely different matter since it involves a whole map, not just a section o a single beat. When i mod, i often tell players to remove some custom colours that are really hard to see or to use more "regular" BGs. But again, if the mapper want to be mean and wants to leave it, i let him be. That's his own choice. About me, probabily i won't play a map like that (that's why i still haven't played Bad Apple, even though i really wanted to)

Anyway, are these kind of threads becoming a trend?
Everyone always complaining about this and that. If you don't like or you can't play a map just don't play it. I do that often right now: since i'm not good at streams/fast beats i play maps that don't abuse them (and that's a shame, because i like DJpop's maps but i always fail ç_ç)
Please, let mappers try to make something new when they map, that's how a map can become a masterpiece. I'm sure sometimes there are attempts that go failing but in that case i believe that the mapper can be quite mature to decide what to do.
If we start putting too many rules, maps will become more and more plain and boring.

When modding, try to think what the mappers wanted to do with a certain pattern. If it's really so bad, discuss that with him, don't just go and rage about that because of those rules.
Also, these are not rules, but "guidelines"

I think i said everything... If i didn't explain myself well enough, please let me know.
(Please, don't take this message as a rage or anything, it's only my opinion. I'm saying this because it seems i frequently get misunderstood in this kind of threads)
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I fully agree with almost everything Card N'FoRcE said. Couldn't of said it any better~
Breeze
osu! Alumni
4,949 posts
Joined March 2009
Breeze

0_o wrote:

I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I will say that white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
I agree with that. At first I love KIAI time very much, I think that's cool. But I find it's hard to see notes afterwards. Especially light colors notes lol

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:
Anyway, jump could add fun to play game, but too much jumps are boring, I hate whole map jump D:
then also, somebody would like to treat it as challenge. there's nothing wrong with jump, just wish jumps could read in a short time when play

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:
I was thinking a easy diff. should has a slower slider speed, and a faster for harder diff.
high BPM maps with 2xBPM is terrible lol, like Card N'FoRcE said, someone treat they as a challenge. One thing has someone hate and someone liked, that's usual. Let players choose what they like to play.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
I totally agree with this, short spinner is too hard, and also a note 1/4 beat to spinner is hard to hit. But some maps really use spinner well even it didn't follow 2000+ bonus rule, such as some Jame's map. Anyway, it's unable to get S, that's true.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:
If I see a black background map with black note, I would suggest mapper to change it
Last edited by Breeze , edited 1 time in total.
Jarby
2,962 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby
Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.
Henkie
728 posts
Joined July 2008
Henkie
The things I agree on:

- Hidden sliders (although i play alot on hidden, then the problem is less visible)
- Random Jumps (depends on the timing)
- Slider speeds
- Spinner (I can't spin at all)
- Combo colors (especially annoying on my laptop.. mostly i just have to delete the background to play decently..)

Nothing really more to say.
MegaManEXE
710 posts
Here since the beginning
MegaManEXE

Beuchi-chan wrote:

Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore. :(

Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
They make sense to me :<

Maybe that's because I'm used to her style and how she uses streams when the singer holds notes instead of using sliders or spinners.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone

JarJarJacob wrote:

Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.

Cyclone wrote:

Obviously most of these would have to come into consideration on a situational basis.
On a side note i feel a couple people didn't read my post very well.



Ph0X wrote:

I won't command on all but:

Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?

streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.

I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].
For the jumps, I'm talking about the jumps that ARE indeed at COMPLETE random. Jumps can be fun, yes. They need to make sense though.
Gabi
2,554 posts
Joined December 2008
Gabi
Spinners
i don't see a problem here. if there is a long vocal, and then a drum beat 1/4 right after the vocal, i think it's appropriate.

2000+ auto spinner is just a guideline, so i have been told by many many BATs.

Too Many Difficulties:
why would this bother anyone? the only thing that is annoying for is the modders. no one is forcing you to play all the difficulties, there is 1 difficultie that gives the most points and that is the only one you need to play. the other diffs are there for fun and for other people who likes other styles to play. it would be much more annoying if 4 different people had to upload their own mapset just because they wanted to make an insane for just that song.

Combo Colors:
this is indeed retarded
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of, especially if the song doesn't call for it.

Jumps and Spacing that doesn't move with the song can also be acceptable in my eyes if it's consistant and effictively can make a beat of its own.

Also learn to manipulate spinners if you think you really need to add a spiner during a SMALL vocal or some other rhythm and there is a beat shortly after. Honestly I make the spinner start 1/8th after the previous note instead of on the vocal tick so you have that much more time to complete it.

You can still have a hard map without anything listed in the first post, some of our best players may make it through it simply. Still, My mysterious mountain map is difficult for the vast majority of users to FC. But theres not much bullshit getting in the way directly for your completion of it.(Although personally I feel some spots feel a little awkward.)


Part of the reason I never finished my touhou collab is honestly, hito's and Neo@alex's parts were garbage. Near unreadable garabage.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:


Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/10989
Hey, look.

Also, I dislike it when mappers place notes with little to no volume for the hitsound. It makes it a lot harder to follow the rhythm. I don't know about anyone else, but it might just be me.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
People just need to think, do they want their map to be hard because it's bad, or do they want it to be hard...because it's hard...
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X

lukewarmholiday wrote:

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,
I'm not sure if I can agree with this.
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.

Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)

So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers
Mystearica
Mystearica

strager wrote:

Beuchi-chan wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482

... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
Look at the mapper.
Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.
Beuchi
osu! Alumni
2,288 posts
Joined February 2009
Beuchi

Mystearica wrote:

Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.
I'm not complaining about fc'ing it or not (I actually fc'd it...) I'm just giving my opinion about it.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji
tbh, I think Massive Wonders is a fine map. The streams add more to the song, imo.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

Ph0X wrote:

lukewarmholiday wrote:

People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,
I'm not sure if I can agree with this.
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.

Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)

So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers
osu isn't really a game that really supports hard maps without them turning to shit.
Derekku
COOL DUDE
7,270 posts
Joined March 2009
Derekku
Spacing Changes: I care about consistency. If one just throws random jumps or spacing changes into a map, then it will probably play bad and just look stupid. If the spacing gradually increases or does the same thing multiple times, then sure, it's probably fine.

Hidden Sliders: I thought that these were unrankable... I played a map earlier today that had a bunch of them and it was pissing me off because they were 99% invisible.

Random Jumps: Usually depends on the map.

Slider Speeds: ^

Zig-Zag streams: oh god I hate these.

Spinners: I agree that they're really being pushed. Sometimes I'll be modding a map in editor, a fast spinner will come up, and it's so ridiculous that I bet myself that it has NO bonus, let alone 1000 or 2000. Then I'll check it in test mode, see that it's 2000 bonus, and facepalm.

Too Many Difficulties: I don't have a problem with multiple hards/insanes as long as there's ALSO a spread of other difficulties. Easy/Normal/2 Hard/2 Insane would be fine with me.

Combo Colors: Everyone needs to use their eyes and brains for this one. If it looks hard-to-read, then it most likely IS and should be pointed out and changed. Hard-to-see combo colors should be unrankable.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I'd like to add something on Zig-Zag streams:
It seems like almost everyone hates them, and so do I, but it's because they are extremly hard and I can't do them.
Though, at slower BPMs, they are really fun (not sure if the ones in Whip the Blip count, but there's the one in Bulletproof)
Thing is, it seems like as soon as something is too hard for us, we suddently give up, but that's not the way of going. How did we all get better at streams? How did we all get better at jumps? This is the same, if we start playing zigzag streams, our muscle memory will get used to it and we will also master that.

Ofcourse, there's a limit speed, and right now some of the zigzag stream are way past out skill level, which is why they are aweful, but if we start putting 1/4@130-150 bpm and slowly work it up from there, we could maybe master that too. Thing is, if the difficulty of the zigzag stream matches the overall difficulty of the map, I don't see what the problem is.

Also, I know this is not part of the discussion, but at lower BPM on longer streams, zigzags help me alot of stamina and not going off beat.

EDIT:
This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.
Very legit way of adding difficulty to the map. I don't see why one way should be accepted and another shouldn't? This whole thread is pretty much discriminating some techniques to makes a map harder, even though to me they seem as legit as any other one. It seems that you are just too used to the others to be able to accept these newer stuff.
yeahyeahyeahhh
osu! Alumni
2,850 posts
Joined December 2008
yeahyeahyeahhh
I can't fully comment on this til tomorrow but one thing I can definitely agree on, COMBO COLORS.

I won't even play a song if it has background colors and hit circles so similar its impossible to see. Add kiai timing on it, I'll probably end up rating that map a 1, idgaf about how good the map is. I also hate skins that are SO heavy. So much shit everywhere and everything is so large. Not really a problem (seeing as how you can just delete them) but I just wanted to rage about that too. :evil:
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
You know what, I can't read anything you say anymore, ph0x. Days after I've started this thread you've STILL failed to realize why I have issues about anything I listed. You assume it's because I can't do these patterns, or that I don't like difficulty. If that's the case you obviously haven't seen me play. I have pride in my ability to read AND play these sorts of things. That is NOT the point. What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY. ANYBODY can make a difficult map. It'd probably take me about 20 minutes, and I'm a REALLY slow mapper. The more people actually make maps for the sake of being difficult, the closer we move to how something like Stepmania got. People make charts in that game with every note at least 2 arrows, and in AT LEAST 1/4 beat (16th note) streams. Before you even TRY to argue against me on that point, my keyboard wouldn't even ALLOW me to play those sort of charts.


Now that I've got that out of my system, if you actually DO actually know where I'm coming from, I'd be more than happy to start discussing such things again.
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
I try my best putting myself in your position, and I also know very well about your skills and abilities, but I still fail to get this line
What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY.
Either one of us is not being openminded (said without irony/sarcasm/etc), or we are completly not understanding eachother.

Well MY point is, YOUR view of quality is different from other peoples, and things you might consider "bad" might be "good" for other people. Of course, this turns this entire discussion into a matter of preference, which is why I've been trying to say that we need to take the likes and dislikes of MULTIPLE people (BATs and maybe MATs too), put them together and make some sort of average compromise that will please as many as possible. Because you may have seen in this thread, people agree and disagree on almost every one of the points.
Cyclone
osu! Hall of Famer
1,975 posts
Joined July 2008
Topic Starter
Cyclone
Alright, i can live with that. It just seemed like your view was something along the line of "Anything that is difficult is good," especially after you defended hard to see combo colors (in irc chat) BECAUSE it makes things harder.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
At least you have someone to argue the opposite viewpoint instead of having one sided complaints. Personally I don't like anything that really is a way to cheat you out of a completion or FC. It's more difficult but id rather play a song I can flow with. Of course, to some people it's boring. I just think high end players should make their own high end maps, and stop giving them shit about it.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Heads up: Let's make every map look the same and therefore rankable!

Golden idea.

Seriously what is this shit? No offense to Cyclone or anybody else, but really this is not how you should be dictating mappers IMHO.

I believe ztrot has raised the issue as well to no avail, so I'm going to have to ask this:

WHY THE HELL IS ZTROT'S CONCERNS BEING DISMISSED?
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Get the fuck out kid.

That's not the point. The point is, there needs to be a line between creativity and just hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I threw notes on a map whats a song.

Unfortunately, what's interpreted as "fitting the song" is fairly subjective.
Last edited by lukewarmholiday , edited 1 time in total.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.

Also dark on dark and light on light is a concept you will be taught in ANY art or media class. So fucking make sure your combo colors are distinct from your background. Even still you have whiners complain that it restricts creativity and shit.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Need a hug?

Get out kid?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

By the way, small things like combo colors are fine, but this whole thread is becoming a "I can't SS this so don't give me this" type of shit, so no I'm not going to "get the fuck out kid."

Sorry.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Can you read.
Mystearica
Mystearica
Can you not be a retard.

Add in emo while I'm at it.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I thought it would be kind gesture to inform you you're missing the point. But I guess you're going to continue making an ass of yourself. Also from the vagueness of your argument, me screaming into my microphone and making a 5 star beatmap of it with absolutely no thought put into the note spacing and placement, Is a good map, and anyone who hates it just isnt good enough to like it. So I kindly ask you put a little more thought into your posts before putting down others or be prepared to explain yourself.
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Mystearica
Mystearica
Go ahead and gather up your fail troll buddies to support you, you aren't doing a good enough job holding your own.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
So are you going to propose a more convincing argument or are you just going to make personal attacks.

The definition of trolling must have changed.
The_Priest_In_Yellow
319 posts
Joined September 2008
The_Priest_In_Yellow
Could people just, shut up ?

Gather what's left of your honor and discuss the question instead of going at each others' throats.

Also, almost done with my analysis. Posting later tonight or tomorrow, if I don't have to do some mundane task for class.
Mystearica
Mystearica
We are discussing the question.

I think there's no issue other than minor things like combo colors, those I can agree with. But other than that, to me this whole thread is pretty much a "don't put down shit I can't SS otherwise your map sucks" kind of rant thread.

But someone decided it's a personal matter so yeah shit happens.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I'm sorry your insulting of everyone in this topic came down to a personal matter.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

lukewarmholiday wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11384

00:42:225 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8)

Jumps like these should be unrankable. What fucking purpose to they serve. I really want to know. I can understand jump increases during impact points. I can understand a gradual increase in spacing during a rising point in a song. I have done both.

But the song is fucking hitting a small low and THEN you get jumps?
You call those jumps?

Hah.

I would never call those jumps. Not for a second.

And I think that's where part of the problem lies...
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Arbitrary increase in spacing nonetheless. My opinion on them is that people who can complete things like that wont miss them when they are gone, and those who don't like them...well they will be able to like the map more.
Last edited by lukewarmholiday , edited 1 time in total.
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input

SPOILER
hurrrrrrrr
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.
Well you have your thoughts.
But, Way to attack someone who hasn't even touched this thread.
yeah I think your points make alot of sense. But Ranked maps ARE RANKED.
If you wanna make new rules whatever, But really if you think about it it's the biggest insult to the mapper.
that is to go and say well all the new maps suck, mapping has only gotten better from the old days you will always see weried maps it's just gonna happen. so why attack them now?
I don't agree with everything but some points in this convo makes sense.
But I love how you just plan out dissed me thanks~

EDIT: gotta love my grammar~ :B
Last edited by Yuukari-Banteki , edited 1 time in total.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
Chill brah, it's a joke
Mystearica
Mystearica

Todesengal wrote:

can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable input

SPOILER
hurrrrrrrr
can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares about

thanks for looking
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
I'm sure you're at liberty to decide what osu! as a whole cares about and what they don't care about.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
lol I tryed to edit lukes post instead of posting :o

no it's okay I'm more mad about this convo than anything.
I know that's was a joke that's how you are luke I can tell when you joke sometimes I'm not "LIKE" THAT!
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
I'm not even in #osu half the time you crazy bitch you

^____~
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji
Perhaps this thread needs to get back on topic.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares about
I agree sometimes #osu gets really stupid, but you can only use moderate so much.
Cuddlebun
965 posts
Joined August 2008
Cuddlebun
no I think it should be like #osu and talk about shit no one cares about

oh wait it already is

go Nakata go
Alace
osu! Alumni
3,088 posts
Joined August 2008
Alace
well
why do you guys post things here
come on
make your maps better lol

PS:i am just too good so i don`t need to read the first post at all
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

Nakata Yuji wrote:

Perhaps this thread needs to get back on topic.
No it's just whining about how we cant complete maps. How about we change the ranking system to only moderate timing and offsets since we are damaging peoples creativity.
Last edited by lukewarmholiday , edited 1 time in total.
Nakata Yuji
471 posts
Joined April 2009
Nakata Yuji
Well, it's probably been stated before, but it is Cyclone voicing his opinions. Him, of all people has no problem actually playing these out.

He's not really whining, he's just concerned that the way maps are gradually changing to encompass these harder "issues". I think he said before that maps are just going to be harder just to be harder, therefore removing the fun factor.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

lukewarmholiday wrote:

Chill brah, it's a joke
Yes, ztrot's maps are a joke.

I think the problem (what the OP bitches about) is better explained like this:

If you're playing a map, and say, "Wow, that was fucking gay," then you're disliking that element, like Cyclone and others are disliking the elements they post about.
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
strager shut up thanks
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
It's a little more deeper than expressing discontent for certain elements beatmappers use, but I guess that's an accurate summary to an extent.

The only semi accurate analogy I can give for the opinions towards these areas is some players dont mind the elements, while some people do. I just want mappers to ask themselves, will map players really miss the elements when they are gone? Jumps and spacing mixups are almost always fun when used intuitively, but when do you get to the point and when should we start moderationg when the jumps and spacing reach the point where you really get no feeling other than indifference or discontent to their usage in maps.

Hidden sliders and stuff are more along the lines of artificial difficulty and I'll leave that discussion to high end players/mappers. Since I know Ph0x and strager support them(From what I can gather) and when they go with the beat I guess I really cant say much against them.

I'm personally more concerned with the overuse/abuse of short repeating sliders inbetween streams and the like.

This whole argument still follows the whole, bigger the community is, the more it's split. When people like the maps we find repulsive, they will only listen to their supporters, because they are filling their niche. I really don't expect to be hanging around osu! as a whole much longer so I really don't know what I'm arguing for. I hardly even like my own maps, even moreso it's repulsive seeing what type of maps are getting high ratings nowadays. Personally I try to shoot to please the biggest audience possible, not shove my controversial mapping style down others throats.
Lesjuh
Elite Mapper
2,442 posts
Joined October 2008
Lesjuh
Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.

There, problem solved <3
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday

lesjuh wrote:

Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.

There, problem solved <3
First, people vote 10 if the beatmap features a background with a character whose eyes are larger than their fist.

Second, Most mappers that cause the issues in the first place have thick heads.

Ideally people would vote good maps high and mappers would consider criticism. It doesn't happen in reality because people love their work too damn much, and players just want to see their favorite anime OP ranked in some form.
Dangaard
osu! Alumni
1,232 posts
Joined July 2008
Dangaard
Common sense usually helps. ;)
Mogsy
osu! Alumni
3,450 posts
Here since the beginning
Mogsy
Unfortunately, common sense is lacking in most players, from what I've gathered.

Here's the thing: the mappers who refuse to admit that they're wrong are the main ones contributing to the problem. There are people who seem to throw out the whole "You're restricting creativity" tripe that fall into that category most of the time. The thing is, just because you mapped it doesn't make it right. If someone believes it's unintuitive, possibly take it into consideration. If more than a handful of users claim for it to be unintuitive, then you're doing something wrong. Creativity is one thing, but unplayable is another.

As far as "pleasing the crowd" goes, I'm not one for it. Map the way you see it, just as long as it's playable.

making this post with little time yaaaaaay
Detective Tuesday
233 posts
Here since the beginning
Detective Tuesday
Mapping for sake of difficulty is never a good thing. People seem to be forgetting that is a music game.

When I map, I want an end product which does it's best to emphasize the significant parts of a song while providing an interesting and appropriately challenging gameplay experience. Before you even drag your song to osu!, listen to it and ask yourself: "Okay, what are we lookin' at here. Which instruments play which role, what is the lead, and how does each instrument complement that?" If you map an entire difficulty based around the percussion just because it's fast and provides for the most difficult steps, you're missing the point (that is, unless the drums are indeed the main focus of the song in question). If I dislike your Insane map, it's not because I suck or anything. It's just I find myself unimpressed, as you've shown that you can place fast combos but you haven't demonstrated an understanding of the music itself, which is what mappers should strive for the most.

Listen for rhythm, articulation, pitch, and note length in the lead part. You should be looking to use combos, slider ends, repeats, jumps, and whatever you can to emphasize those significant details without getting so picky to the point where level design, rhythmical clarity, and flow are sacrificed. Don't restrict your map solely to the lead instrument or vocalist, but use the lead part as a central "motive" while using background instruments as recurring deviations. In that way, difficulty naturally increases with the intensity of a song: if you hear more background instruments or a change in percussion, make sure your map emphasizes the change in mood, and keep an ear out for new ways to provide added difficulty that's both rhythmically interesting and sensible... But don't forget to keep your motive intact when possible: consistency is one of the main components in a good map.

Oh yeah, and where are y'all placing breaks? When the melody of a song switches up, don't tease us by mapping the first measure and breaking for the next 3 before the chorus. Why bother setting a mood if you're just gonna abandon it? Instead, break for the full 4 measure sequence, or look for a major background change that justifies a moment of "silence" from the player. You know, like when the beat stops for a measure and the vocalist screams a catch phrase or hits a crazy high note... or whatever. Just be smart about it, and have your breaks planned out before you even place a note.

Song choice is very important. At the end of the day, some songs simply don't make for good maps regardless of how much you and I want them to. Find your breaks, think about some potential motives, and make sure you know what you're doing before you throw that IIDX track in the editor.
lukewarmholiday
2,148 posts
Joined June 2008
lukewarmholiday
But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

lukewarmholiday wrote:

But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~
But it's normal spacing to me, not jumps.
awp
osu! Alumni
11,869 posts
Here since the beginning
awp
idk politics are gay just make the map fun

that's what I aim for

I don't give a flying fuck about difficulty because I just end up doing it right most of the time. I occasionally end up with sets where the hardest difficulty is an easy FC even for mediocre players, but idk I don't give a shit

have natural talent, make fun maps, win
Ph0X
1,043 posts
Joined March 2009
Ph0X
/me is still waiting for tippy's pr0 analysis paragraph :<
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
This thread is a tl;dr so pardon me if this has already been said.

Cyclone wrote:

Spacing Changes:
Agree.

Cyclone wrote:

I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo,"
This rule is poorly worded. What it actually is is more like, "a suitable place for a jump is usually also a suitable place for a New Combo." One-off jumps tend to make the most sense on the transition between two musical phrases or when the line being synced changes. The same holds for New Combos.

In fact, the whole justification for jumps comes from the iNiS mapping techniques, where jumps tend to appear between patterns.

Cyclone wrote:

Hidden Sliders:
Are a stupid form of Fake Difficulty. Should never be used.

Cyclone wrote:

Random Jumps:

Cyclone wrote:

This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
^

Cyclone wrote:

Slider Speeds:
I think the current 2x slider speed implementation is stupid so I never use it. The changes are too harsh and unpredictable, adding another kind of fake difficulty.

Should we ever have access to slider speeds which aren't so stupidly extreme as powers of two, and warn the player of their presence with tick spacing, their usage still needs to make sense and fit the music.

Cyclone wrote:

Zig-Zag Streams:
If they're small, they're deceptively easy. If they're too big, it's just yet another stupid insane pattern--the same as every other.

Cyclone wrote:

Spinners:
It's not the spinners themselves which are the problem; it's the mappers. Whenever anyone tries to codify common sense with a set of guidelines, there are always the douches who push those guidelines to get away with whatever kinds of crap they can. There's a reason law is so complicated.

Spinners are supposed to represent a gradual build of energy to a climax. Using them as fast objects in busy parts of the music is a plain error.

Cyclone wrote:

Too Many Difficulties:
Is it a matter of "too many difficulties" or "too few easy/normal difficulties"? Moskau certainly has too many. Stuff like that happens because the mapper has too big a heart and can't say no to them.

Lack of Normals and Hards is a real problem in many maps though. Either you rape your accuracy by attempting one of the many Insanes or you put up with having < 1,000,000 added to your score from the easy.

To make the game accessible to as many players as possible, having a broad variety of difficulty levels should be collaborators' first priority rather than showing off how pwnsome their insane is.

Cyclone wrote:

Combo Colors:
This is a basic UI principle. Apparently these guys don't play their own maps.


Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria. They are the bare minimum. Quality can't be codified--it's a matter of intuition. Modders should always take care to point out what they liked and didn't like even if the base criteria are met. This is what can turn an okay map into a great map and give new mappers a sense of what's liked. But mappers need to listen to this. Too many times, I've gotten a big fat NO! from some mapper refusing to change something I pointed out solely because it didn't violate the ranking criteria. (and sometimes even when it did!)

This is why I carry the "SFG disclaimer" in my signature. I'm not mandating changes. (I'm not even in the B/MAT, so I can't mandate changes. =/) I'm collaborating to help make your maps more enjoyable before they get frozen in the process of ranking.

When mapping some pattern in a way which is "out of the ordinary," always ask yourself why you're doing this and how does it make your map better.
anonymous_old
0 posts
Here since the beginning
anonymous_old

MetalMario201 wrote:

Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria.
+1.
An64fan
osu! Alumni
864 posts
Joined September 2008
An64fan
The true matter that Cyclone has brought up seems to have been skimmed over by pretty much everyone in this topic. Thank you to Luke and MetalMario201 for at least making mention of the concept at 64 and 74 replies. That's still too long for the rambling, though, if you ask me.


All the problems that occur frighteningly frequently in today's maps.
tl;dr: Fake difficulty is not at all a good thing.

I can agree completely on everything he has said. Although nearly all of his examples can be used well in certain setups. For example, mild zigzags in streams can add a nice touch to the aesthetics of a map while not compromising their ability to all be hit. Overlapping beats and sliders are nice in certain instances, as well. Heck, I've even seen frequent speed changes turn out a nice (albeit novel) map in Akeboshi - Wind. However, the problem comes about when these are misused, and from my experience--I'll be quite frank here--this is usually the case.

When mapping, people need to sit down and look at everything that they have done in their map, and ask themselves what elements contribute to difficulty, why, and how. It seems too many mappers stop at the why, because that's as far as they have to consider to make their map more difficult! But how they contribute to the difficulty is even more important. Is it to require the player to utilize the skills they've sharpened through play? Or perhaps it calls for them to perform discomforting actions?



I'd like to rant at Ph0x, but I'm really too tired to. However, although I'm not really in tune with how how the situation is as present, back at the time I left, there was indeed an issue of difficulty. Mappers were pushing to create more challenging beatmaps, however, the range wasn't spreading at all. While maps were becoming more challenging, the easier end of the spectrum was becoming more overlooked during mapping. Doing this crowds out new players, forcing them to sift for the limited number of current maps with lenient difficulties, or to turn to old maps for suitable starting points or practice. Although this isn't at all the point of the topic, it is an important matter, and you seem to be unaware of the common consequences of that upwards push.
Empire_Chief
1 post
Joined October 2008
Empire_Chief
Hidden Sliders: Sometime they can be well installed and do not interfere with the game, but when you have 10 super-quick super-short hidden sliders one under another, it's almost impossible to get them all.

Random Jumps: Those can be really annoying, because, sometimes, you'll be in a combo on one side of the screen, then a tenth of a second later, you're supposed to start two combos on the other side. Is it necessary to spread them as much as possible, because this isn't difficulty, it's annoyance!

Zig-Zag Combos: I actually saw once a zig-zag combo that was half-hidden by another zig-zag combo in the opposite direction. What's the big idea? Can't you put them in a straight line or do a spaced zig-zag with less notes.

Spinners: What I dislike about those are the fact that a lot of people will not only put notes just after the spinner, but sometimes the spinners will come out of the blue, be likehalf a second long, and they will be repeated 3 or 4 times in a row. The purpose of a spinner is to have the time to build up the points, not mess up your combo because you didn't know a spinner was coming.
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