This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
Totally agree with this, I hate spinners and how people use them. =(Cyclone wrote:
Spinners:
I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?
That's one of the multiple reasons of why I hate Kiai -w-;0_o wrote:
white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
Highly situational and subjective. Destiny has some spacing changes which I and some of my buddies feel are very natural but others are terribly confused by it.Cyclone wrote:
Spacing Changes:
(This is worded in a way that was directed at the BATs)
Well, we probably brought this upon ourselves, but people sometimes have a tendency to change spacing by as much as a factor of 2 every other combo. I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo," "If you're going to use a jump, start a new combo," etc. So people naturally think "so we just make a new combo and we can change the spacing however we please?" ...well, according to the rule we made, yes.
I only accept this if the timings are consistent. 1/2 slider, 1/2 pause, 1/2 slider, 1/2 pause, hit circle, for example.Cyclone wrote:
Hidden Sliders:
OK, if there's a slider under a note, and that slider is a really short repeating slider, it's invisible. Maybe not so much in the editor, but in play there's a giant "300!" blocking your vision. (or whatever judgment your timing received)
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2314
These are harder to read for me (maybe due to my skin). Sometimes they work (high OD, 8-10) but most of the time they're horrible and shouldn't be rankable. Not everyone uses snaking sliders.Cyclone wrote:
Less hidden, but almost as hard to read are 1 circle and 1 slider 1/2 apart in length (think roughly 160 BPM) and the slider endpoint is overtop/underneath the circle. The question is: Is it over or under? Very hard to distinguish at a glance, meaning very hard to read correctly during play.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (oh hey look, this is also used in another point entirely involving spinners.)
You can say "Random [Insert some beatmap technique here]" and say it's bad, and it probably is.Cyclone wrote:
Random Jumps:
Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
Same as with "random jumps".Cyclone wrote:
Slider Speeds:
People seem to have some notion that changing slider velocity every other beat is a GOOD THING. I've asked SEVERAL TIMES why?, but I never get a straightforward answer. I want one. Somebody please help me on this.
I agree this is a retarded fad.Cyclone wrote:
Zig-Zag Streams:
These are streams (think faster streams, upwards of marisa speed) that have every other note aligned in 2 separate rows are columns in such a way you have to zig-zag your cursor. Unfortunately, zig-zag'ing like that is near impossible, so players are forced to find the middle point between the 2 rows, and move in a straight line. This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.
Notes 4-15: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2313
inoriteCyclone wrote:
Spinners:
I've always hated spinners. This is the number 1 way mappers try to add difficulty to a song that doesn't need it. We made a rule "auto+2000." People push that rule to the absolute limit. They'll make a spinner that gets +2000, however, JUST BARELY. By that I mean I WON'T EVEN HEAR THE DING SOUND for the 2000. Then they'll add notes that are 1/4 a beat after the spinner. If the spinner HAS the be that short, and the hitsound OF the spinner is part of the rhythm of the next notes, then WHY is there a spinner at all?
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2316 (notes just after spinner)
I think subjectivity is part of the reason why this happens. If a bunch of people complain about one insane, and the mapper is stubborn, sometimes another insane will be made. And maybe another.Cyclone wrote:
Too Many Difficulties:
Mainly the result of Guest Difficulties, which is why I tried taking an extreme stance against them a while back. Mappers will accept, or even ASK for difficulties in which they've already done. There should only be ONE insane. There should only be ONE hard. So on and so forth. I'm pretty sure I've seen a map with like 4 insanes before.
http://up.ppy.sh/files/untitled-56.jpg
This should be stopped at the modding stage. Unacceptable.Cyclone wrote:
Combo Colors:
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2347
Notice the white on white, and the black on black.
http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/2348
Notice how hard the approach circle is to see.
Basically you shouldn't have to struggle to see the circles or the approach circles. This should take the BG into account.
Look at the mapper.Beuchi-chan wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482
... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
I noticed that sometimes too, but actually i don't mind. Also, i think we need maps of all kinds, so even this thing shouldn't be a problem if used well.Cyclone wrote:
Spacing Changes:
True, but sometimes the slider is visible before getting the 300. The main problem anyway, is finding maps where that works (there are a few, but yeah, i guess sometimes it's as you say)Cyclone wrote:
Hidden Sliders:
That's also true, but i don't see the problem anyway. If the mapper wants to be "mean" just let him be. Usually these things are readable anyway so the player has two choices: stop playing that map or accepting the challenge and trying again.Cyclone wrote:
Random Jumps:
Then let me ask WHY shouldn't this be allowed? Many maps have this feature and many of them use it well, so where's the problem?Cyclone wrote:
Slider Speeds:
LOL Usatei. Well, about that, since i'm the mapper, i can say this: that map is from more than a year ago and standards were different. I wanted to make a really hard map for approval, but linear streams were boring, so i tried that (that was my first time using that mapping technique). I put HP Drain 3 to avoid people getting killed for those streams. Also, i can't play that (and many other people can't) but actually the map IS fun (ask people, you should find some who will tell you "That map is really cruel but it's fun", i think). So again, If a mapper wants to be a asshole the player can just avoid playing those maps.Cyclone wrote:
Zig-Zag Streams:
That's true too, and i hate that use of spinners too, but i also have to say that some maps used that thing quite well (I mean, remember Wizards in Winter? That one is still awesome). Again, that's up to the mapper. Actually, the Auto+2000 "rule" still is useless to me, imho spinner only have to be at least 100'd without problems, but that's me (yeah, i don't dislike insta-spinners, as long as they have sense).Cyclone wrote:
Spinners:
What's the problem? OK, since everyone doesn't know that and i'm getting tired of seeing that map being brought up for that reason, here's the story: xxheroxx made that map by himself, it had Easy, Normal and Hard. Then people in #italian thought the song was cool and decided to make more difficulties for that one. It went up to 8 difficulties in a bunch of days. Then, xxheroxx removed Easy and Hard because we got told that a mapset can't have more than 6 difficulties and he didn't want to remove guest difficulties.Cyclone wrote:
Too Many Difficulties:
Again that's true and i think this is a completely different matter since it involves a whole map, not just a section o a single beat. When i mod, i often tell players to remove some custom colours that are really hard to see or to use more "regular" BGs. But again, if the mapper want to be mean and wants to leave it, i let him be. That's his own choice. About me, probabily i won't play a map like that (that's why i still haven't played Bad Apple, even though i really wanted to)Cyclone wrote:
Combo Colors:
I agree with that. At first I love KIAI time very much, I think that's cool. But I find it's hard to see notes afterwards. Especially light colors notes lol0_o wrote:
I don't have time right now to comment on everything, but I will say that white circles + light background + kiai = AIUHDKAFYBSFKAHBFLIUHDSJ
Anyway, jump could add fun to play game, but too much jumps are boring, I hate whole map jump D:Cyclone wrote:
Random Jumps:
I was thinking a easy diff. should has a slower slider speed, and a faster for harder diff.Cyclone wrote:
Slider Speeds:
I totally agree with this, short spinner is too hard, and also a note 1/4 beat to spinner is hard to hit. But some maps really use spinner well even it didn't follow 2000+ bonus rule, such as some Jame's map. Anyway, it's unable to get S, that's true.Cyclone wrote:
Spinners:
If I see a black background map with black note, I would suggest mapper to change itCyclone wrote:
Combo Colors:
They make sense to me :<Beuchi-chan wrote:
Deathstream overmapping: Okay, streams are cool and all that but when we have a map which is 90% deathstreams... That's not cool anymore.![]()
Examples: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/5731 - http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482
I admit that Red Zone is a "streamy-sounding" song but Massive Wonders isn't, and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
JarJarJacob wrote:
Really, all of this stuff is on a per map basis. You can't and shouldn't set up rules to things that can be pulled off well in the first place, never minding the maps that don't. It should be up to the mapper and modding community to decide what does and doesn't work on the specific situation.
On a side note i feel a couple people didn't read my post very well.Cyclone wrote:
Obviously most of these would have to come into consideration on a situational basis.
For the jumps, I'm talking about the jumps that ARE indeed at COMPLETE random. Jumps can be fun, yes. They need to make sense though.Ph0X wrote:
I won't command on all but:
Random jumps:
"Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song"
I don't even know what to say to that. Seriously, can you read this yourself without laughing?
I don't want to sound rude but, really?
streams are also a device for adding difficulty. OD is also a device for adding difficulty, etc.
Don't think I need to add more on that.
I do agree though that putting them at completly random places is lame, but they can be very fun if used corrently (Which is why commonsense > rules at times)
Good examples would be lesjuhs map
s. Caramelldansen (Speedycake Remix) [LESJUH DIFFICULTY!!] if you need a precise one. Or those in wiklund - crystal dimension [insane].
Spinnersi don't see a problem here. if there is a long vocal, and then a drum beat 1/4 right after the vocal, i think it's appropriate.
Too Many Difficulties:why would this bother anyone? the only thing that is annoying for is the modders. no one is forcing you to play all the difficulties, there is 1 difficultie that gives the most points and that is the only one you need to play. the other diffs are there for fun and for other people who likes other styles to play. it would be much more annoying if 4 different people had to upload their own mapset just because they wanted to make an insane for just that song.
Combo Colors:this is indeed retarded
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/10989Cyclone wrote:
Random Jumps:
Obviously just a device for adding difficulty to the song, especially since much of what I see nowadays does not even take the song itself into consideration. I've seen 4 notes play normally as one would expect, then in a complete turnaround, WITHOUT THE SONG CHANGING A BEAT, jumps all over the place. I mean, hell, the pitch won't even change sometimes. This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
I'm not sure if I can agree with this.lukewarmholiday wrote:
People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,
Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.strager wrote:
Look at the mapper.Beuchi-chan wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/9482
... Massive Wonders isn't ["streamy-sounding"], and most of the deathstreams are, in my opinion, non-sense :S
I'm not complaining about fc'ing it or not (I actually fc'd it...) I'm just giving my opinion about it.Mystearica wrote:
Massive Wonders fits streams just fine actually. Listen to the music instead of complaining if you can't fc.
osu isn't really a game that really supports hard maps without them turning to shit.Ph0X wrote:
I'm not sure if I can agree with this.lukewarmholiday wrote:
People just need to get it into their head that they don't need to make their map harder than the most insane map they can think of,
Good hard songs are extremely rare. And as I get better, there's even less and less that are actually a challenge for me. But that's because I don't like nor count spam/stream maps like Kanbu. It's a personally thing but I get no satisfaction out of them and I also suck at them. I also find it lame to just listen to a fast map in slowmotion and put a circle on every fucking 1/8 beat you hear, then call it a map. Again it's just my opinion.
Now, thing is, I can pretty much count on my fingers all the jump beatmaps that are I can't pass. And 75% of them is because they got crazy lifeleech. Of course I'm not talking about the completly impossible maps (read: lemontree, tag4, etc)
So yea, I disagree that we don't need harder maps. People nowadays only play for the score so as soon as they see a map that is not FC/Sable, they hate it right away. Thing is, the community is never gonna get better by acing songs, but there are no mappers making challenging maps for the high rankers
This means that the size on the hitcircle essentially is REDUCED, by as much as 80% sometimes.Very legit way of adding difficulty to the map. I don't see why one way should be accepted and another shouldn't? This whole thread is pretty much discriminating some techniques to makes a map harder, even though to me they seem as legit as any other one. It seems that you are just too used to the others to be able to accept these newer stuff.
What IS my point is I'm tired of seeing QUALITY being ignored for the sake of DIFFICULTY.Either one of us is not being openminded (said without irony/sarcasm/etc), or we are completly not understanding eachother.
You call those jumps?lukewarmholiday wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11384
00:42:225 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8)
Jumps like these should be unrankable. What fucking purpose to they serve. I really want to know. I can understand jump increases during impact points. I can understand a gradual increase in spacing during a rising point in a song. I have done both.
But the song is fucking hitting a small low and THEN you get jumps?
Well you have your thoughts.lukewarmholiday wrote:
Also Ztrot sucks at mapping.
can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares aboutTodesengal wrote:
can't have a good discussion about rankability/mapping without Mystearica's valuable inputSPOILERhurrrrrrrr
can't have #osu without you lovely people tapping away on a keyboard 24/7 about shit no one cares aboutI agree sometimes #osu gets really stupid, but you can only use moderate so much.
No it's just whining about how we cant complete maps. How about we change the ranking system to only moderate timing and offsets since we are damaging peoples creativity.Nakata Yuji wrote:
Perhaps this thread needs to get back on topic.
Yes, ztrot's maps are a joke.lukewarmholiday wrote:
Chill brah, it's a joke
First, people vote 10 if the beatmap features a background with a character whose eyes are larger than their fist.lesjuh wrote:
Just vote low if you dislike a map and drop some advice on the topic so the mapper realizes it sucks.
There, problem solved <3
But it's normal spacing to me, not jumps.lukewarmholiday wrote:
But I want to use jumps to make this boring flat drum beat exciting!~
Agree.Cyclone wrote:
Spacing Changes:
This rule is poorly worded. What it actually is is more like, "a suitable place for a jump is usually also a suitable place for a New Combo." One-off jumps tend to make the most sense on the transition between two musical phrases or when the line being synced changes. The same holds for New Combos.Cyclone wrote:
I say we probably brought that upon ourselves since we made the rule "spacing should be consistent throughout a combo,"
Are a stupid form of Fake Difficulty. Should never be used.Cyclone wrote:
Hidden Sliders:
Cyclone wrote:
Random Jumps:
^Cyclone wrote:
This point overlaps with point #1 in a way.
I think the current 2x slider speed implementation is stupid so I never use it. The changes are too harsh and unpredictable, adding another kind of fake difficulty.Cyclone wrote:
Slider Speeds:
If they're small, they're deceptively easy. If they're too big, it's just yet another stupid insane pattern--the same as every other.Cyclone wrote:
Zig-Zag Streams:
It's not the spinners themselves which are the problem; it's the mappers. Whenever anyone tries to codify common sense with a set of guidelines, there are always the douches who push those guidelines to get away with whatever kinds of crap they can. There's a reason law is so complicated.Cyclone wrote:
Spinners:
Is it a matter of "too many difficulties" or "too few easy/normal difficulties"? Moskau certainly has too many. Stuff like that happens because the mapper has too big a heart and can't say no to them.Cyclone wrote:
Too Many Difficulties:
This is a basic UI principle. Apparently these guys don't play their own maps.Cyclone wrote:
Combo Colors:
+1.MetalMario201 wrote:
Modding intrinsically needs to involve one's opinion. It is a grave error to mod solely based on the ranking criteria.
All the problems that occur frighteningly frequently in today's maps.tl;dr: Fake difficulty is not at all a good thing.