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sakuzyo - AXION

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Sophia_old_1
266 posts
Joined December 2013
Sophia_old_1
I feel like this thread is going to quickly derail into an argument of the sorts where the two sides discuss whether one should map to the song, objectively, or to what they feel, and all that "mapping is art" stuff - if you want to look at the song "in another way" and impose your own rhythm with your map on the top of the song itself through your mapset by emphasizing awkward rhythms you claim to view over what would be the most obvious rhythms that anyone can perceive. The song doesn't feel like it is such a song that's been portrayed in the highest difficulties, but the mapper can easily claim that he "feels as if it fits", and even that this song is "more intense than even Big Black", however out of left field the comment may be.

That's likely not going to be productive, so perhaps it'd be better to look at spacing and flow of the maps, which are undeniably off and awkward no matter how you look at it. Also, before anyone pulls into it, someone being able to FC a map doesn't make the spacing or the flow any less awkward or off; it just means there's people who can play whatever awkward stuff you placed in your map. That does not change the fact it is counter intuitive and all over the place. It may be playable, but that does not make it correct or good.
Misure
953 posts
Joined September 2012
Misure
Anyway, Happy Chinese New Year :)
[Mahua]
702 posts
Joined November 2010
[Mahua]
tm的不是你们要的难吗 这tm不够难？
有pp不拿都有病 没难点的谱子谁tm玩啊
edit:这比我做的那个axion容易多了
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye

Shiirn wrote:

tl;dr the song choice is much more of an issue than the actual mapping or the patterns within them

I really have to agree with this. Some of the diffs themselves would probably work great in other songs but axion is such a monotone and ambient track.

To me it seems that, just like how radical feminists look too far into things just to find something they feel is insulting, people are looking too far into songs, trying to emphasize shit that isn't even there for the sake of difficulty increase and making an edgy map. People should know that just because something is on beat doesn't mean anything goes. Common sense should also apply as mapping = crafting official levels for a game, not just our own personal art exhibition.
I'll have it known that I consider mapping more than just level making in a game, so much that I'd even call it an artform. However, it's also restrained by the need of proper gameplay.

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?
Shiguma
476 posts
Joined May 2014
Shiguma

Shiirn wrote:

To summarize as simply as possible:

The map has patterns and flow that do not belong in a song of this nature. AXION is not a powerful song. It is not a song that implies, when listening to it, fullscreen 1/4 jumps, regardless of whether or not they are playable.

The issue is that the higher difficulties are taking the music's beat patterns and applying patterns that do not belong with the music, do not fit the music's tempo, buildup, or power in any predictable or comfortable way.

While the individual patterns are possible and playable, the difficulty of them are all over the place and do not fit the theme of the song - which progressively builds up to "max energy" about 50% of the way in, before rapidly declining in the final 1/4th of the song. These patterns do not fit AXION. There are other songs where they can totally fit. Furioso melodia has a lower bpm but much, much, much higher intensity.
Isn't this completely subjective? Someone's opinion on this song may be it's not intense, while others think it is very intense.

I don't understand why it was disqualified for these gimmicky patterns especially when the star difficulty is above 6 stars. Isn't it really the people who can't even play 6* beatmaps the ones who are complaining that these maps are too hard? Isn't that the reason there is a difficulty spread?

Nube wrote:

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?
While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.
Edit: I'm terrible at reading and I'm making up things. Also don't know what I'm talking about. Sorry.
Last edited by Shiguma , edited 2 times in total.
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye

Shiguma wrote:

Nube wrote:

I'm tired of people getting offended when they are criticized for doing something VERY controversial. Meet the important arguements with your own instead of blaming it on biases. Try to make people understand exactly what you're trying to pull off, because if you can't even explain what you are doing, then how can you claim to know it's even remotely good?
While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.

I never said being controversial is bad, I just said that you have to be able to explain why what you are doing is good. Stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.
Shiguma
476 posts
Joined May 2014
Shiguma

Nube wrote:

I never said being controversial is bad, I just said that you have to be able to explain why what you are doing is good. Stop putting words in my mouth and learn to read.
Didn't the creators respond to the mods that were given on this beatmap?

Edit: I don't know what I'm talking about.

Although I still think it's a subjective opinion on whether a song is intense or not.
Last edited by Shiguma , edited 2 times in total.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Shiguma wrote:

Isn't this completely subjective? Someone's opinion on this song may be it's not intense, while others think it is very intense.
No? What makes you think that?

Shiguma wrote:

I don't understand why it was disqualified for these gimmicky patterns especially when the star difficulty is above 6 stars. Isn't it really the people who can't even play 6* beatmaps the ones who are complaining that these maps are too hard? Isn't that the reason there is a difficulty spread?
There are a number of top players that have criticized all the 6*+ difficulties.

Shiguma wrote:

While the beatmaps may be controversial, isn't that kind of a good thing? Do we want to see the same exact style of mapping repeated over and over again? This map may be extreme, but many people can play these difficulties. It allows for creativity. HanzeR comes to mind, with his creative mapping style which people initially hated but seem to enjoy elements of now.
Diversity is great - not at the sacrifice of quality. I'm surprised the argument of 'it's my vision' still persists and actually is allowed as justification for disregarding legitimate criticism. Having an opinion on a work of art has nothing to do with how good or not it is. There's a reason why movie critics can call a movie bad or good, depending on casting, acting, writing, cinematography, editing, directing etc. but that has nothing to do with you being able to like it or not. You're free to like whatever you want but that does not give you the right to disregard any mod giving legitimate criticism to problems in the map (esp considering a number of the target audience point this out). If you're going through the ranking system it's an obligation to adhere - otherwise keep your shit in the graveyard thx

Shiguma wrote:

Didn't the creators respond to the mods that were given on this beatmap?
if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly
Timorisu
772 posts
Joined November 2012
Timorisu

JappyBabes wrote:

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly
She clearly does respond to critizing mods in an acceptable and understanding fashion /s


Hollow Wings wrote:

why i map things like this? i got tons of test plays other than yours, and i can tell every detail if you care the so-called answers of "why you set pattern like this?" which just makes me sick, even this map's composing is much more brighter than common ranked ones recently from a mapping view.

yeah "play-ability does not equal quality", then do you guys really looked at the maps' quality without judging the play-ability? to me, the most important part of the quality DO IS play-ability, for a ranked map is made for PLAYING.

the map plays bad to you? good. i've already got 100+ players enjoyed the map and even 3 fc'ed scores.

fartownik wrote:

"the map plays bad to you? good." should be a quote of the year. Some people also enjoyed Big Black, some people have FC'd Big Black, it doesn't instantly make Big Black a good map. Also you mention playability, yes a good map's best feature should be playability, too bad your map doesn't really have that feature at places and you refuse to acknowledge that in the mods you get. Have a good day.
thou eventually that big black is one of the best maps in the year 2012, and it do is a really great map even you can't play it well. too bad if you can't play this map well, too. and also, i always replying to mods, any mods are welcomed, i know what i'm acknowledging and refusing.
bananannian
393 posts
Joined June 2014
bananannian

Shiirn wrote:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this.
Uh, hang on a sec, how is language barrier an issue? Did someone reply to an English mod with Chinese or something? What needs translating?
VINXIS
Featured Artist
3,161 posts
Joined April 2014
VINXIS

JappyBabes wrote:

if HW responded to mods that criticize it'd be in osu weekly

haha gud 1 : ))
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
Music is not entirely subjective.
Music is not entirely objective.
Mapping is not entirely subjective.
Mapping is not entirely objective.

I am quite tired of people who know better lying to themselves and to the community et al about their mapping. AXION is an ambient battle track. Ithas lots of 1/4, but the emphasis is on the beat rather than the intensity.

This is not to say that AXION shouldn't ever have a really hard difficulty - after all, when I mapped it four years ago, it had stream jumps, considered "fake difficulty" back then - but as it is now there should be a reasonable limit put onto a mapper's "creativity" in regards to the intensity of the song. I hate to cry 'slippery slope' but if you let people do whatever they like, you'll end up with a community that has no idea who or what to learn from.



What really frustrates me is that a lot of the patterns do make a twisted form of sense from a musical standpoint, but are so obviously overblown that I can't see anything but disrespect from it.

All of these mappers know better and know exactly what they are doing, but refuse to reach common ground with the parts of the community that disagree with them.

This is an issue that has been going on well over half a decade, and I don't see it ending any time soon, but I wish it wasn't like this. Common ground, areas where we can agree, are precious, and I try really hard to encourage actual discussion that isn't essentially a child throwing a tantrum of "but i want it my way!", but it seems I will continue to be disappointed. I don't want it my way - I want them to consider my way and show in any way that they respect my opinion and mapping experience - something I am sure every person who has modded this map has wanted.

That's what modding is really about - helping other people with your own knowledge and experience. But some mappers only ever see the modding process as "people i gotta convince they're wrong" when it comes to Flower and co.



EDIT: Please note I only care about the patterns in question that are completely uncalled for and most players take issue with - the overall mapping and usage of high spacing doesn't matter to me.
lilynya
84 posts
Joined May 2015
lilynya
.
Last edited by lilynya , edited 1 time in total.
Suisei Hosimati
3,049 posts
Joined March 2013
Suisei Hosimati
Welp, i don't think mapper have to follow the feeling of the song THAT precise, i think it's enough with simple emphasis and playable patterns is enough to rank, nobody would understand complicated things when you playing them

EDIT: Never mind what i said, i didn't read them completely because it's too long for me
Kitami Erika
Kitami Erika

bananannian wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

We should really find a good english-> chinese and chinese->english translator to facilitate this.
Uh, hang on a sec, how is language barrier an issue? Did someone reply to an English mod with Chinese or something? What needs translating?
This is literally important when expressing ideas about a controversial topic like this especially communicating in different language. Different language style directly causes different method of thinking and expressing ideas.

Shiirn wrote:

Music is not entirely subjective.
Music is not entirely objective.
Mapping is not entirely subjective.
Mapping is not entirely objective.

...
+Support.


实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累 :D :D
https://t.co/75epOOBRSP
要用就复制音效算了
Kite
osu! Alumni
1,372 posts
Joined July 2009
Kite
Apparently some people misunderstood the point I was trying to get across.
I am not saying Shiirn is right or wrong, what I simply tried to express is when it comes to mapping no one can claim to be right or wrong.
You have to put yourself into the creators mindset and understand the mapping ideas they applied to the song before you can make suggestions to the improvement of a map.
That being said, not every difficulty has the obligation to feel nice for every player ever playing it, that's why mapsets exist.

Last post since I feel bad to keep this going without providing any constructive feedback for the improvement of the mapset, best of luck Flower.
those
3,135 posts
Joined November 2010
those

JappyBabes wrote:

bad or good [...] but that has nothing to do with you being able to like it or not. You're free to like whatever you want
Wish more people understand that you're allowed to like bad things.

Happy new year! At the current state, the map is a solid 6.5/10. If passable is all you're looking for, then sure. I can point out exactly what stops the score from being any higher, but I don't know if it's actually worth it, so I'll refrain for now.
Kinomi
1,229 posts
Joined August 2012
Kinomi
wtf dq again.

扶老二千年修圖仍未修成正果
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
Just to be clear DQ's are the start of a discussion to talk about the problem areas I felt that there was a large portion of community asking why things like this are allowed and a prime example of stuff that is over the top is what MillhioreF already pointed out as well, I'm not here to force my views or anything of the sort, this map could be improved and there is no reason not too. trust me if it was just me modding this I would argue that the entire spread is to insane bound and that is has no balance, overmapping and artificial difficulty. But I also respect that times have changed and what is precise to call a hard now days was the insane of yesteryear. So I would just like to see some improvement come from this conversation you act as if the map is dead on air and can never move forward. Just take the time to update it a bit it is old that doesn't give it a free ride to be flawed.
Osu Mapman
2,514 posts
Joined August 2012
Osu Mapman
instead of arguing what's subjective, what's objective and what do you personally prefer you people could just throw some detailed feedback on map i believe me too actually




If it's needed i can mod it though, just poke me via irc or something
[Shiny]
153 posts
Joined June 2014
[Shiny]
I'm here only for see how HW's fanbase defend her ridiculous diff.

Anyways I'm surprised, this kind of beatmaps never get DQ, at least not when they're from "popular" mappers.
Suisei Hosimati
3,049 posts
Joined March 2013
Suisei Hosimati

Kitami Erika wrote:

实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累 :D :D
今次DQ不是你的問題嗎。。。你的難度沒有問題的為什麼要刪了
Natsu
8,100 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu
Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~
ecdonald
336 posts
Joined January 2012
ecdonald
fmm...I'd like to have an opinion that we should just wait Hollow Wings but try to do reading comprehension her map and pick up some issues which is expected to help improving map actually with valid reason as much as possible before our be too belligerent. I think HW will explain the theory of HW's EX since, according to her user page, her mapping style is making objective sense.

It is hard too comprehend HW's EX for my skill, but I found one point to be a little worried about. just suggestion.

00:37:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I couldn't find any good reason for these placing. it looks a bit too monotonous for the song because the sound of this song of this timing has not completely same melody. how about ctrl+G on 00:37:900 (1) - and 00:38:275 (3) - (separately) ? this up-and-down cirsor moving with this placing would follow the song-melody's up and down. and 00:38:650 (5,6,7,8) - has a bit different melody to 00:37:900 (1,2,3,4) - , so I'd recommend to change this placing, too. especially 00:39:025 (7,8) - would more fits with four 1/4 circles imo, which has slight special melody compete with before ones.

thanks! sorry for trespassing on the discussion (the reading long text is also lerning English for me who is poor at English lol), hope it gets requalify.
Kitami Erika
Kitami Erika

KuranteMelodii wrote:

Kitami Erika wrote:

实在是不行了把我难度删了啊 留个Hard挺好 我觉得我现在这个难度实在是坠毁
打嘴仗简直他妈的天花乱坠 论题在以光速绕dq issue飞行但是就是不打在点上 真鸡巴累 :D :D
今次DQ不是你的問題嗎。。。你的難度沒有問題的為什麼要刪了
tired
自己还有一条腿陷在里面 别人来说什么总归也要来看一看
Liiraye
1,354 posts
Joined December 2011
Liiraye

Natsu wrote:

Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~
Thing is, people are afraid their mods will be ignored as shown times before and that's why the discussion is there in the first place. Why bother trying to help someone who doesn't want to change? Before anything it would be nice to get a response from the mapper themself.
Hula
581 posts
Joined January 2013
Hula

Nube wrote:

Natsu wrote:

Hey guys can you avoid posting if you don't have nothing constructive to add? make suggestions and try to improve the map that's the only way to help the mapper, take your no sense out of here pls, thanks. Maybe gonna take a look later~
Thing is, people are afraid their mods will be ignored as shown times before and that's why the discussion is there in the first place. Why bother trying to help someone who doesn't want to change? Before anything it would be nice to get a response from the mapper themself.
yep. i made half a mod and then decided it was a waste of time, because mapper spirit, mapping style, all the usual. I'd rather delete my mod than even post half a mod because i'd just be more disappointed by everything being rejected for invalid reasons, we all know the reasons already.
Shirona
45 posts
Joined February 2015
Shirona
:/ stream jump is too hard
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
DQ because spread is too loose. DQ because Readabikity of *insert time here* is bad. DQ because of multiple MP3 file. Some reasons above could be controversial, but at least they are clear.

Now let's DQ because community has different voice. It is good, but leaves space for question. To what extent, shall we agree that the map is okay on the shelf? It is not very appropriate to attempt to satisfy everyone.

Will check the posts if I get Okinami.
ryza
679 posts
Joined October 2011
ryza
I haven't read every post here, but I just want to state a couple of things that I think are very important.

First off, I should mention I like every extra difficulty in the set. I think they are creative and fun to play, and I don't think they are awkward in the slightest. I do think there are things that could be improved, but that's not the point of this post.

A lot of people are talking about how the maps are too intense for the song. I will have to disagree with that. I think intensity is relative to the rest of the map. If you take a song, and start the map off with a certain spacing level, then that is the "normal" spacing for the song. The starting point. It doesn't feel like intense spacing if you are only comparing the map to itself - because that's the spacing you start with. The problem comes when you compare it to other maps of similar songs... then you think "this map is more intense." But I think that's flawed logic. In terms of intensity, every map should only be compared relative to itself. You have a starting point, and then the difficulty/spacing may increase at different parts of the song. But the starting point in that specific map is what matters.

I don't know how much sense that makes to anyone but me, but that's kind of how I feel about it. Just because something is "difficult" doesn't mean it's "intense". If you take a 170bpm calm song, and map half screen jumps for the whole time, the map won't feel intense. It may be difficult, but it won't feel intense, because there is no variance in the spacing throughout the whole map. It will actually be kind of boring.

So that's how I feel about Axion. I think within each map, they map to the variances in the song quite well and they feel nice to play.

Also a lot of people are complaining because people just in general don't like "stream difficulty"

Hard jumps are ok but tracing is too hard

like why...

ok im done
[Mahua]
702 posts
Joined November 2010
[Mahua]
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower

[Mahua] wrote:

我一个2400pp的叒鸡哪有比在座一堆五六千pp的大神了解这图
RikiH_
1,149 posts
Joined February 2011
RikiH_
I'd love to see this ranked, honestly. I will take a look at it later
Mechanizen
124 posts
Joined March 2015
Mechanizen
The source is Cytus not BMS :<<
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
The source is BMS not Cyrus :<<
Shiguma
476 posts
Joined May 2014
Shiguma
Is this going to stay in grave?
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
I didn't get Okinami, so I will leave the game until financial year sale
[Mahua]
702 posts
Joined November 2010
[Mahua]

Flower wrote:

[Mahua] wrote:

我一个2400pp的叒鸡哪有比在座一堆五六千pp的大神了解这图
说的有理 妈的我的话谁删的
tsugi
31 posts
Joined November 2013
tsugi
unobjectively the best mapset of the 2010s
hyouri
390 posts
Joined June 2012
hyouri
Sorry for random mod, but Skystar's Expert is the only difficulty with Widescreen Support on which you might have forgot to turn off
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
It's back O.o
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower

Alveryn wrote:

Sorry for random mod, but Skystar's Expert is the only difficulty with Widescreen Support on which you might have forgot to turn off
Will fix this in later uptade
Nyanaro
Beatmap Nominator
251 posts
Joined March 2014
Nyanaro
First mod ever v.v sorry if i don't get the format right...

Hey!
For the Axion_Reborn difficulty,
on this section 01:23:650 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - i feel like having 01:24:025 (1,2,3,4) - slightly higher and rotated a little clockwise

^ Something like this ^

would make the map more accessible for players to complete. It wouldn't change the difficulty much and would keep the same style of pattern.
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
all fixed and updated.
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
It's back, nice
Feel free to call me if you want to get it pushed forward again ^_^
Shiguma
476 posts
Joined May 2014
Shiguma
So... about Skystar's Expert.

01:25:900 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - iirc, everyone complained about this pattern when it first got qualified. At one point Skystar recorded himself playing this part, SS'ing it.

My thoughts on this pattern is that it does work, but the real problem is lead-in to this pattern!

01:21:400 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - So we start off with this speed, 01:22:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - becomes spacier, 01:22:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - even more,
01:23:650 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - maximum spacing,

01:25:900 (1) - And then this is pretty abruptly slower than the rest, only for 01:25:992 (2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - everything else to become fast again!

A simple fix would be to push this entire combo 01:25:900 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - to the left so the distance spacing is consistent. It makes the flow much better, and then it becomes possible to do the back and forths, like Skystar has shown.

At least, that was my opinion on it.
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
Thanks everyone. Will check the posts later

Shiguma

Shiguma wrote:

So... about Skystar's Expert.

01:25:900 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - iirc, everyone complained about this pattern when it first got qualified. At one point Skystar recorded himself playing this part, SS'ing it.

My thoughts on this pattern is that it does work, but the real problem is lead-in to this pattern!

01:21:400 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - So we start off with this speed, 01:22:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - becomes spacier, 01:22:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - even more,
01:23:650 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - maximum spacing,

01:25:900 (1) - And then this is pretty abruptly slower than the rest, only for 01:25:992 (2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - everything else to become fast again!

A simple fix would be to push this entire combo 01:25:900 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - to the left so the distance spacing is consistent. It makes the flow much better, and then it becomes possible to do the back and forths, like Skystar has shown.

At least, that was my opinion on it.
I find the space being consistent. there is no need to change distance to 01:25:900 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - . note that 01:25:900 (1,2) - starts from the left rather than right, so the jump ensures the spacing.
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Let's try again

[General]
Add some kiai please. Irre/Skystar do have kiai in their diffs

[Easy]
01:08:650 (4) - It's such a calm part, and you have a 1/2 here. It's better if it's in the kiai, not in one of the calmest parts of the song

[Irre]
01:00:400 (1,2,1,1) - I don't think you need all these NCs Combos are only 1 long here

[LKs]
I still think HP needs to be lowered to 7, but up to you
01:54:400 (1) - I don't think the slider fits much, why not make it a strea>?

[Fanzhen]
00:38:275 (1,2,3,4) - Ctrl G please. This way the stream will flow much better

[Skystar]
01:30:775 (5) - Please make this just 1 circle. It feels a bit weird for 1 loud sound to have a 1/8 slider attached

Now go and revive this
I want to bubble it
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower

Bara- wrote:

Let's try again

[General]
Add some kiai please. Irre/Skystar do have kiai in their diffs

[Easy]
01:08:650 (4) - It's such a calm part, and you have a 1/2 here. It's better if it's in the kiai, not in one of the calmest parts of the song imo this is a way to emphasise the change of rhythm of the next 4 bars. and the music is in fact changing abruptly

[Irre]
01:00:400 (1,2,1,1) - I don't think you need all these NCs Combos are only 1 long here yea

[LKs]
I still think HP needs to be lowered to 7, but up to you I feel current hp is ok, since a newbie like me can pass the middle part when missing quite some notes
01:54:400 (1) - I don't think the slider fits much, why not make it a strea>? the original bms uses a blank to emphasise the last notes, and I think this does make some sense

[Fanzhen]
00:38:275 (1,2,3,4) - Ctrl G please. This way the stream will flow much better k

[Skystar]
01:30:775 (5) - Please make this just 1 circle. It feels a bit weird for 1 loud sound to have a 1/8 slider attached k

Now go and revive this
I want to bubble it
Thanks :3 updated
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Let's see how it goes
Zero__wind
osu! Alumni
3,314 posts
Joined August 2012
Zero__wind
你扶老二又回来了
7ambda
2,599 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda

Bara- wrote:

[LKs]I still think HP needs to be lowered to 7, but up to you
I also think it's fine. Even I was able to pass it with some effort many months ago. It provides a good challenge for lower ranks to accomplish, yet still feel rewarding at the same time.
Rizia
3,114 posts
Joined January 2012
Rizia

Zero__wind wrote:

你扶老二又回来了
DeRandom Otaku
2,143 posts
Joined November 2014
DeRandom Otaku
wwwwwwww
_DT3
1,403 posts
Joined October 2015
_DT3
OMG
Ryuusei Aika
Elite Mapper
1,130 posts
Joined January 2016
Ryuusei Aika

Zero__wind wrote:

你扶老二又回来了
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Hollow Wings
"protential chinese mappers 4" tried qualifying maps with their common spirit leader LKs who named it.
Muu-chan
1,643 posts
Joined August 2014
Muu-chan
Congrats :D
Super Creek
2,540 posts
Joined July 2012
Super Creek

Hollow Wings wrote:

"protential chinese mappers 4" tried qualifying maps with their common spirit leader LKs who named it.
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
OMG IT HAPPENED
10nya
2,746 posts
Joined February 2011
10nya
ohoooooooo
sahuang
2,294 posts
Joined December 2014
sahuang
Shiguma
476 posts
Joined May 2014
Shiguma
NO MORE DQ's PLEASE
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,317 posts
Joined December 2011
Irreversible

Hollow Wings wrote:

"protential chinese mappers 4 + 1 swiss mapper" tried qualifying maps with their common spirit leader LKs who named it.
fixed 8-)
Spork Lover
727 posts
Joined October 2013
Spork Lover
GRATZ
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
here we go again
Flask
Beatmap Nominator
3,473 posts
Joined July 2011
Flask

Hollow Wings wrote:

"protential chinese mappers 4" tried qualifying maps with their common spirit leader LKs who named it.
Len
Beatmap Nominator
2,836 posts
Joined June 2012
Len
hell yea
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

Irreversible wrote:

Hollow Wings wrote:

"protential chinese mappers 4 + 1 swiss mapper" tried qualifying maps with their common spirit leader LKs who named it.
fixed 8-)
Poor Irre
Pata-Mon
1,494 posts
Joined March 2015
Pata-Mon
nba
Keldeo
osu! Alumni
2,253 posts
Joined March 2016
Keldeo
the normal is objectively the best diff :^)
Xilver15
Former osu! Champion: 2015
514 posts
Joined August 2013
Xilver15
On Flower's diff, is the pause on 00:52:900 - intentional? it felt kinda off and weird for having it there :o
raririn
1,002 posts
Joined October 2011
raririn
NB
Adol Christin
875 posts
Joined October 2012
Adol Christin
看到大新闻了，恭喜恭喜
Hula
581 posts
Joined January 2013
Hula
So. I really don't understand nearly anything that's going on in AXION_REBORN

But, I believe that 00:53:093 - has a missing object at the very least in AXION_REBORN because you're mapping like everything occasioanlly (which is completely unnecessary and not suitable for osu - this is a rhythm game not a orchestra simulator) Currently the gap you have here looks completely broken when there should be an object cos there's drums and synth stuff.

Edit: So, 00:27:587 - no object here? You're mapping the synth most of the time, but you start off the intense rhythm stuff with something which isn't even in the song. This should be a triple.

00:27:681 (3) - This is a terrible example of how to use a repeat slider. You put the clap on the middle of the slider whilst the slider head and tail land on blue ticks which are synths which are constantly 1/4 beats for several bars. I don't understand.

00:43:525 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - This section in the song has constant 1/4 synth stuff, but that's like the least interesting part of this part of the song. You could do such good things by mixing in the drums with the synth stuff.

00:49:525 (1,2,3,4,1) - Overmap, no need for 1/8 sliders here. Sounds like we should be expecting a rollover sound, but we don't.

01:00:212 (7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - This might look cool. But wtf. Going back on yourself in streams is ass. 01:00:681 (4,1) - I can hear in the song the justification for this, but it just doesn't fit. So, in this pattern you're mapping the piano, therefore why have you included in the same pattern this 01:00:400 (1,2,3) - this is not piano sounds part of the rhythm, yet you included it in the pattern making it look exactly the same as the rest which is confusing. The pattern should start at 01:00:681 (4) -

01:00:400 (1) - This should basically be a 1/2 slider because right now this pattern doesn't make sense.

Whilst we're at it, can you explain these jumps 01:34:525 (3,4,5) - So, there's a jump from 3 to 4 cos of a synth, but then there's a reduction in DS from 4 to 5 despite it being a drum and when you're listening to the song it is much more dominant than a subtle change in the synth stuff.

01:38:650 (1,2,3,4) - These are all practically the same sounds yet why have you spaced them like this? They should have equal spacing.
Shoga
232 posts
Joined January 2015
Shoga

Shiirn wrote:

here we go again
Fycho
Global Moderator
2,490 posts
Joined August 2012
Fycho

Zero__wind wrote:

你扶老二又回来了
听说最近流行挖老图?
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
To Hula:

Your "mod" is appreciated, but not taken. The map is good, and you should feel good.

Have fun.
-Kanzaki
889 posts
Joined June 2012
-Kanzaki

Flower wrote:

Your "mod" is appreciated
Stjpa
901 posts
Joined July 2013
Stjpa
You are supposed to give a proper answer.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team
5,060 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
Okay so:

A few points that Hula raised were also the thing that xilver wondered about. Given how the map is structured 00:52:900 - looks like you deleted something on accident. It looks pretty out of place given how the map is structured around more or less constant clicking.

Besides that, there aren't any replies to the following posts on this thread:
p/4879150
p/4888547
p/4885975

You even kudo'd a few of these posts and didn't tell anyone if and what you changed so I'm taking this down to sort this out properly before this moves on to ranked.
Pata-Mon
1,494 posts
Joined March 2015
Pata-Mon
……
Kinomi
1,229 posts
Joined August 2012
Kinomi

???则不呢又坠机
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and
de移植权仙很棒哦！
Bursthammy
1,254 posts
Joined May 2015
Bursthammy

Flower wrote:

Have fun.
7ambda
2,599 posts
Joined January 2015
7ambda
AltMirrorBell
84 posts
Joined July 2013
AltMirrorBell
??????????这都要rank了怎么突然dq
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
I didn't delete anything on accident. I explained the modification to the nominators and they agreed. Besides I have good reason Hollow Wings and I have already replied to these posts.

If you have no valid reason then you shouldn't have involved yourself in this non-contributing dequalification. That's it.

Stjpa wrote:

You are supposed to give a proper answer.
So the mappers now have obligations to seriously and friendly reply a nonsense full of offensive words? Well said.
vipto
716 posts
Joined May 2011
vipto

Flower wrote:

I didn't delete anything on accident. I explained the modification to the nominators and they agreed. Besides I have good reason Hollow Wings and I have already replied to these posts.

If you have no valid reason then you shouldn't have involved yourself in this non-contributing dequalification. That's it.
This map was disqualified because there are valid reasons; not because someone is holding a grudge against you.
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower

viptwo wrote:

This map was disqualified because there are valid reasons; not because someone is holding a grudge against you.


Edit: Or neither? How about neither? Because everyone loves me.
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and

Flower wrote:

viptwo wrote:

This map was disqualified because there are valid reasons; not because someone is holding a grudge against you.


Edit: Or neither? How about neither? Because everyone loves me.
fafa

edit: according to your guys' theory, all normal diffs should be unrankable because they compromised to the rhythm and there are some beats are unmapped.
you guys never think about this mapping could be considered creativity instead of disregard to the music.
and there are tons of people agree with Flower's mapping.
uhm if you could ever try to understand a mapper's rhythm decision beyond your standard.
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
I didn't mean that nor support shadow's opinion. If anyone argue with him then it's off topic.
Shad0w1and
1,586 posts
Joined April 2011
Shad0w1and
只是觉得你的NC越改越难看了。。。不如之前的好，你现在这样根本不好读了
01:26:181 - 这里这一大串NC改回去啊，现在的丑爆了。。。能打的玩家还是能打，不能打的叒比还是一脸2逼
SPOILER
01:21:775 (1,1,1,1) - 这几个NC怎么看怎么逗比。。。能打的依然能打。。不能打还是不能
01:57:400 (6) - 考虑NC
00:21:962 (5,6,7) - 应该和 00:21:400 (1,2,3) - 00:22:337 (8,9,10) - 一样的间距
01:34:056 (4,5) - 01:35:556 (1) - 这两段还是改成一样吧
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
OK I have got the story behind it. No more hates then.
Hollow Wings
1,514 posts
Joined July 2010
Hollow Wings

Sophia wrote:

Setting aside how hard it is to read, there are some things which just don't feel right with this mapset. I simply for the life of me cannot come to understand how, for example, in HW's EX, things like

01:12:775 (1,2,1,2,1,2) -

Are completely fine. It's practically a 1/4 fullscreen jump, when there are sections of the map that have a much shorter distance snap when they're 1/2 or similar. Distance snap seems to be something that was tossed out the window in a few of the difficulties. Even if it is fine for gimmicky reasons or mapping reasons I do not comprehend, a fullscreen 160bpm 1/4 jump doesn't really seem something we should be seeing in ranked mapsets. I suppose such things as basics kept in the wiki are not something that applies to popular, experient mappers. Or maybe the wiki just needs an overhaul. i don't see your exact point of why 160 1/4 jump is not fit to rank, otherwise it'll be not fit to rank anything breaking the distance snapping.

But what the hell, I'm no mapper and this is going to get ignored because I'm not good enough to play the difficulties regardless.

ecdonald wrote:

fmm...I'd like to have an opinion that we should just wait Hollow Wings but try to do reading comprehension her map and pick up some issues which is expected to help improving map actually with valid reason as much as possible before our be too belligerent. I think HW will explain the theory of HW's EX since, according to her user page, her mapping style is making objective sense.

It is hard too comprehend HW's EX for my skill, but I found one point to be a little worried about. just suggestion.

00:37:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - I couldn't find any good reason for these placing. it looks a bit too monotonous for the song because the sound of this song of this timing has not completely same melody. how about ctrl+G on 00:37:900 (1) - and 00:38:275 (3) - (separately) ? this up-and-down cirsor moving with this placing would follow the song-melody's up and down. and 00:38:650 (5,6,7,8) - has a bit different melody to 00:37:900 (1,2,3,4) - , so I'd recommend to change this placing, too. especially 00:39:025 (7,8) - would more fits with four 1/4 circles imo, which has slight special melody compete with before ones. the reason i set tapping point in really short distance here is for the map's following aiming style which really required good movement skill from players, like some 1/4 jumps and really fast sliders. aiming for this pattern may be a pause to them to get really in their own phase. for mapping way in some kind of emotional things, it's still working good that let players be focused on what'll appear even with more and more heated beats at 00:37:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - with overlapped and easy-to-complete pattern as well.

thanks! sorry for trespassing on the discussion (the reading long text is also lerning English for me who is poor at English lol), hope it gets requalify.
oh well, maybe we should be more careful about things got past.
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower
Let's go to the history and see them.

MillhioreF wrote:

As long as we're here, PLEASE fix 01:25:900 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4). The cursor movements required are incredibly unnatural, on top of the massive difficulty of the section in the first place. If you keep the spacing, at least provide some sort of flow like you do in the notes before it.

An example of how it could be fixed (doesn't have to be like this though)
SPOILER
I had changed the patterns according to this post, although the original suggestion doesn't fit the style of the map. So this is implicitly fixed.


Shad0w1and wrote:

只是觉得你的NC越改越难看了。。。不如之前的好，你现在这样根本不好读了
01:26:181 - 这里这一大串NC改回去啊，现在的丑爆了。。。能打的玩家还是能打，不能打的叒比还是一脸2逼 反对，这些nc极大的帮助了玩家的读图
SPOILER
01:21:775 (1,1,1,1) - 这几个NC怎么看怎么逗比。。。能打的依然能打。。不能打还是不能 同上
01:57:400 (6) - 考虑NC 没有在这里特意断开必要
00:21:962 (5,6,7) - 应该和 00:21:400 (1,2,3) - 00:22:337 (8,9,10) - 一样的间距 这里提供一种渐进的感觉
01:34:056 (4,5) - 01:35:556 (1) - 这两段还是改成一样吧 同上

Hula wrote:

So. I really don't understand nearly anything that's going on in AXION_REBORN

But, I believe that 00:53:093 - has a missing object at the very least in AXION_REBORN because you're mapping like everything occasioanlly (which is completely unnecessary and not suitable for osu - this is a rhythm game not a orchestra simulator) Currently the gap you have here looks completely broken when there should be an object cos there's drums and synth stuff. as discussed, this was an intended feature to let user to notice the long chord, which emphasises the music

Edit: So, 00:27:587 - no object here? You're mapping the synth most of the time, but you start off the intense rhythm stuff with something which isn't even in the song. This should be a triple. the music stressed the first two 1/4s but not the 3rd. this should be perfectly fitting.

00:27:681 (3) - This is a terrible example of how to use a repeat slider. You put the clap on the middle of the slider whilst the slider head and tail land on blue ticks which are synths which are constantly 1/4 beats for several bars. I don't understand. sometimes basic principles don't correspond to the real game play. the reverse after the long jump gives player a solid "reflection" feeling which emphasises the clap

00:43:525 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,1) - This section in the song has constant 1/4 synth stuff, but that's like the least interesting part of this part of the song. You could do such good things by mixing in the drums with the synth stuff. imo that's how the song goes. a repetitive 1/4 makes the player focus on the flow.

00:49:525 (1,2,3,4,1) - Overmap, no need for 1/8 sliders here. Sounds like we should be expecting a rollover sound, but we don't. there is a reverse drum, as I observe

01:00:212 (7,8,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - This might look cool. But wtf. Going back on yourself in streams is ass. 01:00:681 (4,1) - I can hear in the song the justification for this, but it just doesn't fit. So, in this pattern you're mapping the piano, therefore why have you included in the same pattern this 01:00:400 (1,2,3) - this is not piano sounds part of the rhythm, yet you included it in the pattern making it look exactly the same as the rest which is confusing. The pattern should start at 01:00:681 (4) - being constant should help the player. I don't see how that would be confusing

01:00:400 (1) - This should basically be a 1/2 slider because right now this pattern doesn't make sense. not really a valid reason

Whilst we're at it, can you explain these jumps 01:34:525 (3,4,5) - So, there's a jump from 3 to 4 cos of a synth, but then there's a reduction in DS from 4 to 5 despite it being a drum and when you're listening to the song it is much more dominant than a subtle change in the synth stuff. because drums are deep in the frequency, that's how I emphasise them

01:38:650 (1,2,3,4) - These are all practically the same sounds yet why have you spaced them like this? They should have equal spacing. because they have difference in pitch
Hula
581 posts
Joined January 2013
Hula

Flower wrote:

To Hula:

Your "mod" is appreciated, but not taken. The map is good, and you should feel good.

Have fun.
Are you fucking kidding me? Your mapset takes so many liberties. I'm busy this week and i wrote down a small but broad ranging mod cos i know that these issues have been brought up before and clearly haven't been dealt with.

Don't be rude. Thanks bro

P.s. if you end up denying everythig from everyone's mods, you're clearly bullshitting your way to an easy rank. This mapset has barely changed from the first time you tried to rank it
Flower
1,740 posts
Joined August 2011
Topic Starter
Flower

Hula wrote:

Are you fucking kidding me? Your mapset takes so many liberties. I'm busy this week and i wrote down a small but broad ranging mod cos i know that these issues have been brought up before and clearly haven't been dealt with.

Don't be rude. Thanks bro

P.s. if you end up denying everythig from everyone's mods, you're clearly bullshitting your way to an easy rank. This mapset has barely changed from the first time you tried to rank it
Thanks for taking your valuable time and provide useful feedback.

Hula wrote:

Are you fucking kidding me?

Hula wrote:

Don't be rude. Thanks bro
Last edited by Flower , edited 1 time in total.
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,661 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata

Hula wrote:

If you end up denying everythig from everyone's mods, you're clearly bullshitting your way to an easy rank. This mapset has barely changed from the first time you tried to rank it
Disqualifications allow mappers to discuss their reasons behind patterns and make changes accordingly, if good points are brought up by other modders. If you're expecting everything to be changed due to a disqualification, then you're honestly approaching the disqualification process with a wrong mindset. You're not here to force changes onto the mapper.

Stuff like "This should basically be a 1/2 slider because right now this pattern doesn't make sense." doesn't exactly contribute to quality improvement either. If you don't understand the mapper's intention, its better to ask for clarification. Getting them to change it to something else just because you don't understand the pattern... now that doesn't make sense... xD
Hula
581 posts
Joined January 2013
Hula
All i'm saying is, don't deny everything, cos this is the 2nd time now and you'll only end up going around in circles.

And monstrta you're the guy who tried to dq my mapset cos a quirky normal cos you don't like me. Don't try to take some moral high ground here about mindset towards dqing
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