smoogipooo wrote:

You'll be please to know that there are no more hidden multipliers and rounding issues have been eradicated, but that is not all. Let's go through a list of changes in this initial version(congratulation for all the hateposts of people that didn't even read everything *facepalms*):

1. Score is made up of 20% combo and 80% accuracy. If changes like shoegazer suggested are made, and the ridiculous losses on the tiniest error is fixed, I don't see any problem to adding some combo in the score value, but the score going down when you lose accuracy(losing score you already earned is lame (I don't like that system in the standard scorev2, and I don't like it here)
   
   1. We want to value the more accurate players (accuracy) whilst applying a small reward for consistency (combo). Not much to say to say, but 20% is not small
2. LN starts and ends are now judged separately.
   
   1. Previously LNs considered a joint timing distribution between the start press and end release. This made it unclear as to whether you'd get a MAX after an LN end as you had to take into consideration the LN start. Judging separately should feel more natural, rewarding (as you get instant feedback), and a bit more challenging.
3. LN ends are given a 1.5x lenience to the hit windows.
   
   1. LN starts were previously given up to 1.2x timing window lenience and LN ends were given up to 2.4x timing window lenience. This reduces the complexity of releasing an LN whilst you're focusing on pressing other notes.Hum...I don't have enough information to really give an opinion on these, I'd say it doesn't change much except being a bit harder, since it changes 2 hits for a grade(With the first hit being harder and release being easier) to 2 hits with 2 grades(that are equally difficult(which from what I read in the thread can be 2 misses(that both removes HP)))
4. If an LN is broken but re-pressed, the LN end will not award more than 50 points.Nothing to say about it
   
   1. Works similar to the current system depending on when you release the hold, but is lenient enough to feel rewarding even for newer players (consider that ScoreV2 will be used as the normal ranking in the future).That's something to actually test with the "newer players"
5. LNs do not give combo ticks any more - only one combo tick for the start and end notes. This makes way more sense
   
   1. Feels more natural rather than displaying a useless number.^
6. Mods are back! NF/EZ/HT give 0.5x score multipliers and DT/HR/HD/FI/FL give 1.06x score multipliers.

NF/EZ/HT were already here with 0.5x score, DT was here but did nothing special(hopefully it's not as broken as before it was removed), HR was unranked(considered as useless by...uh...who added them in first place), and HD/FI/FL shouldn't give bonus(already been since a shitton of times)

We've had some internal discussions about how LNs should work, but have not reached a definitive conclusion as there are split opinions. We are eager to hear your feedback regarding osu!mania scoring and this new scoring system!You have mine ^^

I'll be adding here a list of changes I will consider. Please remember that we are fully intending to break the game with these changes. We will apply any changes necessary to make things work:

1. Make DT adjust to 100%/110%/.../150% with score bonus increments of 0.05x (or something like that). Love this
2. Increase the bonus of HR or decrease the tightness of the timing windows.Good luck with making HR good to add

Sakura Kyoko wrote:

Just throwing my opinion in here;

4. Score V2
Don't even get me started. So a song I previously had 992k on now gives me 900k, well okay then.
You LOSE points for poor accuracy. THAT is by far the worst idea I've seen in ages. Why would I lose points that I've gained for doing something well? Like, I'm already losing out on the points that I lose by having poor accuracy/misses. Why would I then lose points for stuff I had on 300S before? Dafuq is this?

It's like "yeah look, you had 10 of the 20 questions correct, but instead of giving you 50% of the points, we're giving you none, because fuck you!"

The new system ONLY benefits top-tier players, and even those will struggle to keep their scores where they currently are, except for accuracy-machines like Halogen-.
And the 200k for having a full combo, while only getting 25% of it for A SINGLE MISS OR COMBO BREAK is incredibly counter-intuitive aswell.
Imagine, 100% the entire song, great 300S-rate, boom, you miss the last note. Well good bye PP, because you just lost 150k for a single miss.
You didn't read through the thread(or you went too fast), you'd know that the 150K loss is if the miss is at the exact middle of the map's combo...Also it's only the first version...go ahead and try to make something perfect on your first try -.-

I think our current score system isn't even that bad and most people didn't complain about it either. Why would you change a running system? There are MUCH bigger problems that need to be fixed, like that incredibly inaccurate star-rating algorithm.
Tom94 just CAN'T work on it right now, and peppy has Osu!Next to focus on...also you're not asking the right person to work on star-rating. it's not because someone is a dev that he does everything in the game...and the current "running system" isn't flawless, smoogi wants to improve it with help of the community

Kivicat wrote:

In this case, to play without score multipliers is the choice that no-mod-players make. I don't see any problem. Playing with HD/FL is more difficult, not due to SVs only. It demands higher concentration, especially when you try to keep combo.

Kivicat wrote:

In this case, to play without score multipliers is the choice that no-mod-players make. I don't see any problem. Playing with HD/FL is more difficult, not due to SVs only. It demands higher concentration, especially when you try to keep combo.

You're not making sense. You're saying that "playing without score multipliers" is something that no mod players make - that's not the case at all. A no-mod player can go onto HD/FL at free will and choose whether or not they want to play that way in an effort to help them. It's pretty well established that high level mania players can and often will go on HD to alleviate the extreme densities found in high difficulty maps in an effort to mitigate the amount of information they have to process.

Sakura Kyoko wrote:

4. Score V2
Don't even get me started. So a song I previously had 992k on now gives me 900k, well okay then.
You LOSE points for poor accuracy. THAT is by far the worst idea I've seen in ages. Why would I lose points that I've gained for doing something well? Like, I'm already losing out on the points that I lose by having poor accuracy/misses. Why would I then lose points for stuff I had on 300S before? Dafuq is this?

I dont know I understand what you are talking about here... IF you have poor accuracy of course you should drop your score...

It's like "yeah look, you had 10 of the 20 questions correct, but instead of giving you 50% of the points, we're giving you none, because fuck you!"

What if you have the 10 easy questions correct? Does that mean you deserve 50% of the score? Even with that, I still dont understasnd what you mean. If you miss 10 times and you have 100 notes then you just should lost 10% of the points? (100k).

The new system ONLY benefits top-tier players, and even those will struggle to keep their scores where they currently are, except for accuracy-machines like Halogen-.

They favour players that can handle difficulty at a certain level. Of course, thats how a scoring system should work. If you arent good enought to beat a map with a decent performance then it doesnt matter which score system you have. Or at least thats what I think

And the 200k for having a full combo, while only getting 25% of it for A SINGLE MISS OR COMBO BREAK is incredibly counter-intuitive aswell.
Imagine, 100% the entire song, great 300S-rate, boom, you miss the last note. Well good bye PP, because you just lost 150k for a single miss.


I am too sure that you didnt even test this... How about giving it a shot before complaining like this? And again, dont look at PP for god sake...

I think our current score system isn't even that bad and most people didn't complain about it either. Why would you change a running system? There are MUCH bigger problems that need to be fixed, like that incredibly inaccurate star-rating algorithm.

Because tournament enviorment is really boring to watch most of the times for mania. Mostly because consistency is a thing that mania players do have (a lot of that) and its really acc-based. If you add combo to the table and mods multipliers then it becomes something 100% different, more exciting and of course as a benefit for those who play good, but a huge drop if you miss just once in a close battle.

5. Conclusion
While I really appreciate the time, effort and the attention mania FINALLY gets, I really think we're heading the completely wrong way. Instead of looking what other games do well (SM with rates, o2JAM LN mechanics), we desperately try to do stuff "our own way", which ends up hurting Mania more than it helps. Give a fair PP bonus for DT or give none at all, don't give bonus points for visual preference and for the love of god, don't subtract points for poor accuracy.

We do have problems, indeed. All mania players know that. But it is 100% needed to have rates? It surely doesnt. Would be a cool add for sure, same thing for a scoring system for tournaments. Now that we have the attention that we "deserve" then we have to clear this topic so then we can try something else like SM rates or whatever (you can always go to SM to play your songs at 1.1x if you want tho)

Sometimes, it's better to look at other, long-standing rhythm games and copy what people like about them. They're not popular for no reason. If we keep heading that way (that way being Score V2, 1.06x score multiplier for DT and visuals, lol), mania will never be taken seriously.

You know... Using "lol" after the multiplier "suggestion" is not helping at all. If you really love osu!mania then take this seriously and dont take everyones effort as it was a joke. Does mania really deserves the attention you pointed out? I am not to sure with this way that we behave sometimes. Like this one. Once that we get noticed at least in something we shouldnt just say those kind of stuff. At least thats my opinion

P.S.: I really love osu!mania, I'm not hating on the game in any shape or form, but I'm loving it how it CURRENTLY is. And I still think we should just copy things that other games (that were created long before osu! even existed) do way better.

Endaris wrote:

Maybe mania will get modspecific mappicks in future tournaments though?

Yetified wrote:

Since it's basicly only for MWC(for now), I don't think having a combo is that bad. It might give the 'underdogs' a higher chance to get a point here and there against some crazy players. It should add some 'spectator value' aswell, since one player can kinda carry his team by holding combo if evrybody else breaks.

Waltrusizer wrote:

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

Khelly wrote:

Waltrusizer wrote:

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

I don't like how it would be decided to change the system for the entire game because of wanting to improve one tournament

Khelly wrote:

Std is a completely different game and should not be paid attention to when talking about mania.

iJinjin wrote:

Just before anyone thinks that the new LN changes would make long notes easier... you're very mistaken.

Before I begin, I still stick to my words about supporting the new LN changes because it will make LNs less "mashy" and people would need more skills to hit them accurately, but I think the leniency timing could be increased a bit more.

Smoogipooo's post about LNs getting a 1.5x timing leniency is kinda misleading, because it makes it look like the timing window for long notes have become loose compared to what we had before.
However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows:
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else

The current proposal decreases that LN leniency to 1.5x. If you guys are supporting the new LN changes on the belief that hitting LNs accurately would be a lot easier, then you probably would want to disagree with the new changes instead.

In addition, the current system allows you to hold the key down even when the LN is over and will not cause a miss. Instead, it will just decrease the judgement that you get from the LN (200, 100, 50). However, the new system will give you a miss on the release if you don't time it correctly. This means that if you were the type of person that didn't really pay attention to LN endings and release them too early or too late (or usually get 200 or below on LNs), you're going to be hurt a lot by this new change.

Therefore, I strongly suggest you mania players to look again (and even try it out yourselves) into the LN changes, and see if you guys are satisfied with it.

iJinjin wrote:

However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows:
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else

smoogipooo wrote:

Hey all,

Cutting Edge has been updated with changes to ScoreV2 that were proposed by Shoegazer here. I want to stress that the changes are not final and we are still tweaking the system to properly represent a player's skill in a competitive setting.

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

robby250 wrote:

Here are my irrelevant opinions, I'll keep it short:

Combo: score v1 is fine, Shoegazer's suggestion might make it very slightly better than that.

Accuracy: same as above

LN timings: should be made more lenient than score v1, not tighter. There's a reason LN spam maps are made lower OD by mappers.

Mod multipliers: the only thing actually worth adding, finding the right multiplier for each mod so that pp for mods can be added until per-mod leaderboards get implemented.

EDIT: and yeah visual mods shouldn't have multipliers but that's already sorted.

My verdict: score v1 is probably the smallest of problems in osu!mania, other than adding mod multipliers for DT pp this is a waste of time.

Arras wrote:

I disagree. Scorev1 frequently has me beating my old scores where the old score has a higher accuracy and a similar combo. Hopefully this can mitigate that sort of thing, as it's really annoying when it happens. While I can't say anything about the release timing leniency as I haven't tried scorev2 (and I assume I can't, since cutting edge can't do multiplayer without supporter), the fact that LNs are split into two notes is a fantastic change imo. This gives the player much better feedback for how well they did on the start of an LN, and you can no longer cheese LN stuff by just holding everything and taking the 200s.
If anything, I'd say the game feeling good to play is far more important than "pp".

smoogipooo wrote:

Star rating and pp is irrelevant to this entire discussion. ScoreV2 will not even be ranked for a long time, and pp/sr calculations are a completely separate matter altogether.

MegaAmoonguss wrote:

I tried out ScoreV2 in multiplayer yesterday and one person in the match literally SS'd the song but had one miss in the middle and got 896k for that. It probably would have been around 997-998k without the miss, and probably like 980-990k on regular Score. I'm not really a fan of how insanely the combo affects you score, and I'm personally hoping that it gets changed in some manner. One of the things I always liked about mania better than standard is the fact that in standard, it almost doesn't matter how well you actually do because if you hold a higher combo you get a higher score. I liked that in mania you can miss, but the emphasis is more on getting as many rainbow 300s and 300s as possible. I'm definitely all for some kind of combo system, but not one that punishes as hard as this lol

smoogipooo wrote:

We need more information, specifically:

* How long was the map?
* Were they actually using ScoreV2? Or even the updated ScoreV2? Keep in mind they have to be on Cutting Edge to try it.

MegaAmoonguss wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

We need more information, specifically:

* How long was the map?
* Were they actually using ScoreV2? Or even the updated ScoreV2? Keep in mind they have to be on Cutting Edge to try it.

I guess it wasn't an updated version. I just used the ScoreV2 that is available in the latest stable release, which I guess must be an old version. The map was Sakura Mirage [ADVANCED], which is a low 3 star map and is 2 minutes long. I'll definitely check out the Cutting Edge version to see how it compares.

Mathisca wrote:

I think that we should regain life when we hold sliders, like in ScoreV1.

Kernaus wrote:

Mathisca wrote:

I think that we should regain life when we hold sliders, like in ScoreV1.

Iii dont agree with this, the HP rate in o!m is generally very lenient, and we dont have a constant hp drain like in standard, failing in mania is generally because the chart is way way above the player's abilities.

rohen04 wrote:

Actually I did notice that people have failed songs with V2 that they have never failed before. Maybe it's part of a bug, or because of the harder LNs. This definitely needs more testing.
Other than that, occasionally it showed me right at the end of the song that I have failed it, even though I had a FC. I haven't tested the newest version yet, maybe it's already fixed.

By the way, thanks for changing the Combo system. This should be more in line of what people expect from such a system.
I do have the suggestion to maybe not make the cap static, but dynamic (i.e. 10-20% of the total notes). This would help to make 4K and 7K equally hard in this regard, since 4K usually has less notes in a similar difficulty level. Also this might avoid problems with songs with less than 400 notes (not relevant for MWC).

smoogipooo wrote:

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

1. Inconsistent gameplay is already punished in a 100% accuracy based score. Inconsistent gameplay = missing notes and not timing well, resulting in lower accuracy and score. No need to involve combo at all here.
2. Gone are the days of beating your personal best score on a song with a lower accuracy, sometimes even resulting in a loss(!) of pp.
3. A purely accuracy based scoring system is a lot simpler and more predictable. Hit notes = higher score. Good timing = higher score. Right now you need to be mathematically inclined in order to comprehend or do calculations with both ScoreV1 and ScoreV2.
4. No weird edge cases like '1 miss 10 seconds in' being punished more severely than '1 miss on the last note'.

smoogipooo wrote:

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

FelipeLink wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

So, its better than before but still, i dont think the combo cap has to be at log_4(400), we are osu!mania the lair of the TVSAIZUS DESU, but being serious, maybe 200~300 should be fine, need to test to see the differences and see what is best, but i think 400 is kinda high, meaning that taiko is ''2k'' the combo cap is 100, so why osu!mania should be 400? this is my opnion btw.

P.S: Some broken mechanics on that combo cap is that we have 9 keymods(6 can be ranked), to be FAIR i think every Keymod need to has his own combo cap, because more keys= more notes, less keys= less notes, 400 could be fine for 7k, but for 4k maybe not, 200 could be good for 4k but for the other keymods? this is a BIG problem in my opnion.

Still, i dont think the score system needs to be changed, maybe this is the small problem in the osu!mania is the score system, all people say ''i had the same combo and accuracy'' but what about the ''300g'' ? and the ''100,50'' ? you can get a 99,5 with Nx100 or with Nx200, and probably the 99,5 with only 200 will be the higher score(meaning that the two scores has the same amount of 300g)
I want to see some scores like:
Example:
992k 1500x 300g, 3x200, 0x miss
Beating a:
991k 1520x 300g, 3x200, 0x miss) i dont think this will happen.
(considering that the 200s were in the same places on the runs)
Hope thats help, my english is kinda bad )':

SPOILER

Arras wrote:

Here you go.

SPOILER

Note how I have almost a full 2% higher accuracy, higher max combo, much less HP loss, more MAX, more 300 and less of every other judgement, yet a lower score.

Endaris wrote:

Am I dumb or are both scores from 2015, Arras?

Drojoke wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

This is a lot better, but combo still has some influence on score. I think a purely accuracy based scoring system is what osu!mania really needs:

1. Inconsistent gameplay is already punished in a 100% accuracy based score. Inconsistent gameplay = missing notes and not timing well, resulting in lower accuracy and score. No need to involve combo at all here.
2. Gone are the days of beating your personal best score on a song with a lower accuracy, sometimes even resulting in a loss(!) of pp.
3. A purely accuracy based scoring system is a lot simpler and more predictable. Hit notes = higher score. Good timing = higher score. Right now you need to be mathematically inclined in order to comprehend or do calculations with both ScoreV1 and ScoreV2.
4. No weird edge cases like '1 miss 10 seconds in' being punished more severely than '1 miss on the last note'.

So basically just Keep It Simple, Stupid. Any thoughts on this?

Tidek wrote:

Yeah, and player with 10misses on 1000notes map can still get 990k points, no, thanks

• 20% combo-based scoring: for each combo achieved, divide it by max combo to get "dimensionless combo". For each dimensionless combo (between 0 and 1), use a function to map it from [0,1]->[0,1]. Sum the function values. The sum, which is still a value within [0,1] will then be scaled to 20% of max score. Refer to my algorithm proposed at the end of page 12, which doesn't use combo cap, and is being discussed by devs and a few members of community (thanks evening on this).
  
  75% old-acc-based scoring: a curve based on v1 accuracy. (refer to research by shoegazer, et al)
  
  5% 300g score bonus: linear against 300g ratio. Example: If 80% of all registered score values are 300g, the user gets 1 million * 5% * 80% = 40k score due to 300g.

Remyria wrote:

I suggest that the combo cap could be scaled on song at something like 5-6% of max combo as the cap

Tidek wrote:

Yeah, and player with 10misses on 1000notes map can still get 990k points, no, thanks

1. Suppose there exists a high spike in difficulty in the beginning of the map and the player has a miss there and only there. The player misses in the beginning, and as a result, got one short of an FC. Suppose there is the same spike in difficulty in the middle of the map and has a miss there and only there. The player misses in the middle, and as a result, has half of an FC. The first case would have a higher score than the second case, yet the difficulty spike is the same. Justify this matter.
   
2. Players like Bobbias have become accustomed to a visual mod in such that they play worse without it. The player can easily become accustomed to a visual mod like that if they have the will to. How would it make sense for there to be a difficulty multiplier for visual mods then?

smoogipooo wrote:

As maps progress anxiety builds up and you become tired, both of those are indications of how good of a player you are, or otherwise, how consistent of a player you are.

smoogipooo wrote:

Explain what the "better ways" are? As I mentioned in the OP we are taking feedback, and we have lots of time to make changes.

1. Combo: Notes following a poor hit after a point have permanent diminished potential worth. Therefore, the position of the hard part matters to set the worth of every following note following.
2. Accuracy: Doesn't care about disproportionate difficulty. Map can be mostly easy with one hard part and the player still gets high accuracy.

Score += (diffScore[t] * accScore[t] * log(t)) / missesPunisher

FrenzyLi wrote:

diffScore take the difficulty of the map at point t

this is not a post about star rating. Any score system that takes into account the difficulty at time / point t should be deferred until a better, non-jumpstream-inflated, workable improvement or revamp to the SR system is made.

FrenzyLi wrote:

AccScore take the player's score point (50, 100, 200, 300, MAX) at point t

scalar sum of score values? I would rather not take a vector.

FrenzyLi wrote:

log(t) will a pause in a map affect this? You can't just take a single formula for everything. Divide map into discrete parts (by combo, timestamp, whatever) because a beatmap is not a continuous function. Smoothing will help but how do you smoothen this discrete chunk of data of user replays / beatmap hitobjects?

FrenzyLi wrote:

Also, the objects at the end of a map is exaggerated in their importance compared to the first few notes. What if beatmaps has hit objects at point t=0?

FrenzyLi wrote:

missesPunisher: v1 thanks.
dynamic last X milliseconds: seems interesting, please propose a working formula.

smoogi wrote:

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

Full Tablet wrote:

I think it is better to not make the scoring system difficulty-dependent.

Instead, make the star rating calculation output a function f(score) that maps a certain amount of score with the difficulty of achieving that score in the specific map.

Endaris wrote:

@abraker:

smoogi wrote:

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

LinkTaylord wrote:

How disgusting! ._.

You'll see ''best global players'' will be using HD/FI/FL only.
Goodbye Jackads, Inteliser, Yuko.

denisol wrote:

And people wonder why Osu!Mania is considered a joke ...

Khelly wrote:

I think it's very fun and good mode

Khelly wrote:

I still don't understand your point because all it boiled down to was being underdeveloped without actually explaining in what way it is - I don't see how the core gameplay of a mode like this (Notes come down; hit note) can be less developed.

Khelly wrote:

In addition to that, do unranked maps not count when you're trying to say someone is "getting to the endgame" or are there some weird ass "would be 8 star in 4k" maps I haven't seen yet?

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

Khelly wrote:

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.
[/spoiler]

Khelly wrote:

Personally I still don't like it whenever someone says "Look at what these other Vsrg does and emulate that" because they want osu mania to be exactly or more exactly like the other games they could just play instead. What's the point of different games if you make the games the same? Even though I think combo based for a mania-type game sucks.

Yetified wrote:

This is basily the mentality of the people who are just here to bash on ScoreV2. They are like:'Oh Stepmania does 'X' much better therefore it is superior'.
=> Well good for you, play stepmania than instead of bashing on o!m. If you only like things that are implemented in that game, and thing o!m is trash becasue it does stuff differently, then you're just being cocky and pretending that you're some 'masterrace' mania player.

1. Timing Difficulty:
   TD is a pseudo-reading difficulty calculation that looks at the note that came directly before the current note. If your current note is part of a double/triple/etc. the other notes are ignored and calculated separately. The shorter the time between the two notes, the higher the TD.
   TD only cares about timing points so if there was a double/triple/etc. the TD is not doubled/tripled/etc.
   
2. Physical Difficulty:
   PD compares the current note to the previous note on the same column. PD increases as the time between the two notes decreases. PD's purpose is to make a distinction between grace notes and minijacks, for example.

stuff

medium PD, low TD:


medium PD, high TD:


low to high PD, high TD:

OppaiDefender wrote:

...

abraker wrote:

Interesting ideas, but describing how diffScore[t] works would deal more closely with star rating than score, so I am not so sure this is approprate for this thread.

abraker wrote:

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

robby250 wrote:

The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

Endaris wrote:

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.

Endaris wrote:

@robby: Combobased scoring doesn't make tournaments more exciting to watch as the winner can already be decided halfway through the map which is lame. Don't give combo any pro-arguments it doesn't have.

robby250 wrote:

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

robby250 wrote:

abraker wrote:

Comparing mania to other VSRG's is a lost cause because it is a subjective matter. Players are going to cause backlash bacause it's aiming to be different than the standards those set. That's all can be stated and is not even a good arguement against scoreV2. I suggest you guys argue against scoreV2 objectively and explain what flaws it has within results and/or calculation.

Score v2 = more combo based than score v1, yes?
Combo based = encourages spamming restart on the first miss instead of playing songs through, adds a lot of needless frustration, anguish and stress in a game that is supposed to be fun.
The people who want a combo based system exist most likely because of osu! standard, because they can't fathom the possibility of a game where a miss isn't a play ruiner.

Or perhaps you have people like smoogipooo who just want to make a system that's more entertaining to watch for MWC; to make scores more excitingly different from each other. In that case, why not instead add harder songs in the map pool? Is it because the same people would win consistently every time because they're better instead of randoms winning because they got lucky and didn't combo break that time? Yeah well, unfortunately that's the nature of rhythm games and better players are supposed to win. Maybe stop separating people per country for a change and together with adding harder maps in the pool you might get more exciting matches. But rhythm games just aren't as exciting to watch as other e-sports, and nothing will change that, specifically because skill differences in players are so well defined here, it's much more objective and straightforward.

Sure, I'll admit that a combo based scoring system makes tournament games more exciting to watch, but the trade-off which is making the game much more frustrating to play for the average user isn't worth it.

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, I'm just trying to give my opinion as constructively as I can. I'm not against anything in score v2 except making it more combo based.

gintoki147 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

I like the osu client and think a lot of the other games look and feel like complete shit to me

thank you so much
as someone who started playing VSRGs two years ago and tried many different games, those are exactly my thoughts of o2jam/stepmania lmao

SPOILER

Khelly wrote:

I'm against a combo based system for a mania type game but I feel it's appropriate for standard because I'm capable of separating these two games into categories that have nothing to do with each other.


2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Hey rate my combo based scoring idea
2016-06-20 14:38 Lampranthus: yeah
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: Combo is worth 100,000/1,000,000 points
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: 25% of a map's total combo
2016-06-20 14:38 Khelly: will give you all 100k points
2016-06-20 14:40 Khelly: Is that good or bad
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: I think it's pretty good
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: Again, if you back it up with making your game's content able to fit those standard there's nothing you can do really wrong
2016-06-20 14:45 Lampranthus: but speed players will leave, and MA players from Stepmaina and LR2 will flock in