As most others have said here, I strongly disagree with visual mods giving a score multiplier. The only hard thing about them at a jist is they create artificial difficulty for those who are not used to playing with the mods or if it's their first time trying it. Eventually it makes the map actually easier to read in the sense that it reduces the information the user has to process at a given time, so it can be used in order to do better on maps with high densities (slightly similar to a new player having to adjust to higher density maps as they improve by increasing their scroll speed); Halogen- explained this well in one of his previous posts.

It's similar to using a lane cover in other rhythm games - it's a visual modifier and should be treated as a preference rather than something to increase your score with. I also wouldn't like to see hypothetically someone using Hidden with 99.5% accuracy beating someone using nomod with max 300g, and the player who was beaten being having to be forced to overwrite their score with a visual mod because of it. It adds a dynamic in (mainly lower rated) ranked maps which I don't think should be implemented.

Because of this same reason I really wouldn't want to see visual mod brackets in the osu!mania world cup, either. Although this is going a bit offtopic in regard to the osu!mania ScoreV2, I just feel it would also cause complications to those who already rely on a visual modifier when playing in nomod brackets. (However, HR brackets could work if absolutely needed, and DT should be fine too. With the addition of rates I feel the MWC map selection could be a lot more diverse, although it's a long way off and probably not relevant to talk about in regard to the upcoming MWCs.)

However, I like the changes to the other mods. HR should probably see a bit more of an increase in multiplier since the difference in timing window is quite large. I would absolutely love to see the proposed change in adding rates, too (although I feel it's a long way off yet, it's still something most people have been hoping to happen for a very long time).

The LN changes seem fine to me (letting go of an LN and pressing it again used to give 200s IIRC, which didn't really make any sense).

I don't really have much to input about the combo change. I feel if pulled off correctly it could work; I haven't had the chance to test this out on cutting edge just yet.

Overall, I like the look of things and I'm glad that finally osu!mania is getting a few changes. The only thing I really disagree with, like many others, is the visual mod score modifiers.

Since it's basicly only for MWC(for now), I don't think having a combo is that bad. It might give the 'underdogs' a higher chance to get a point here and there against some crazy players. It should add some 'spectator value' aswell, since one player can kinda carry his team by holding combo if evrybody else breaks.

However this can turn out to have the exact opposite effect as in players that are naturally unable to hold combo or break more often (especially on dense maps that keep on going like there is no tomorrow) will get punished very hard and will get stomped pretty hard if the opponents can hold combo much better but have for example 2% less accuracy.

I think adding combo for TOURNAMENTS might be a good thing to do so, but the values need to be reconsiderd and definetly needs alot of playtesting to find the right numbers.

Yetified wrote:

Since it's basicly only for MWC(for now), I don't think having a combo is that bad. It might give the 'underdogs' a higher chance to get a point here and there against some crazy players. It should add some 'spectator value' aswell, since one player can kinda carry his team by holding combo if evrybody else breaks.

yeah, let's just make it easier for a worse player to luck their way to victory. sounds great!

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

Waltrusizer wrote:

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

I don't like how it would be decided to change the system for the entire game because of wanting to improve one tournament

Khelly wrote:

Waltrusizer wrote:

yeah lets make the scoring shit for tournaments, the only place it actually matters

I don't like how it would be decided to change the system for the entire game because of wanting to improve one tournament

Yea I kinda think it's a bit dumb that the only reason the score system is being change just to make MWC look "interesting" by making it combo base and more toward visual mods.

How the fuck combo based is more interesting to watch than accuracy based ?

I don't even watch STD tournaments because it's combo based.

Std is a completely different game and should not be paid attention to when talking about mania.

Khelly wrote:

Std is a completely different game and should not be paid attention to when talking about mania.

Exactly, so why is it that they are trying to implement std features into an entirely different game?

Acc > Combo, always.

Just before anyone thinks that the new LN changes would make long notes easier... you're very mistaken.

Before I begin, I still stick to my words about supporting the new LN changes because it will make LNs less "mashy" and people would need more skills to hit them accurately, but I think the leniency timing could be increased a bit more.

Smoogipooo's post about LNs getting a 1.5x timing leniency is kinda misleading, because it makes it look like the timing window for long notes have become loose compared to what we had before.
However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows (edit: this is actually slightly incorrect, check out Shoegazer's and Full Tablet's correction to how the LN timing mechanics works):
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else


The current proposal decreases that LN leniency to 1.5x. If you guys are supporting the new LN changes on the belief that hitting LNs accurately would be a lot easier, then you probably would want to disagree with the new changes instead.

In addition, the current system allows you to hold the key down even when the LN is over and will not cause a miss. Instead, it will just decrease the judgement that you get from the LN (200, 100, 50). However, the new system will give you a miss on the release if you don't time it correctly. This means that if you were the type of person that didn't really pay attention to LN endings and release them too early or too late (or usually get 200 or below on LNs), you're going to be hurt a lot by this new change.

Therefore, I strongly suggest you mania players to look again (and even try it out yourselves) into the LN changes, and see if you guys are satisfied with it.

I am against any kind of multiplier for visual mods, and too large of a combo scoring. I think that o!maina's scoring is fine as it is, but LN changes are definitely welcome. The main reason that I prefer playing mania over standard was because combo didnt count in score, and I'd like to keep it like that since acc is much more important than combo.
Thanks for your attention.

iJinjin wrote:

Just before anyone thinks that the new LN changes would make long notes easier... you're very mistaken.

Before I begin, I still stick to my words about supporting the new LN changes because it will make LNs less "mashy" and people would need more skills to hit them accurately, but I think the leniency timing could be increased a bit more.

Smoogipooo's post about LNs getting a 1.5x timing leniency is kinda misleading, because it makes it look like the timing window for long notes have become loose compared to what we had before.
However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows:
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else

The current proposal decreases that LN leniency to 1.5x. If you guys are supporting the new LN changes on the belief that hitting LNs accurately would be a lot easier, then you probably would want to disagree with the new changes instead.

In addition, the current system allows you to hold the key down even when the LN is over and will not cause a miss. Instead, it will just decrease the judgement that you get from the LN (200, 100, 50). However, the new system will give you a miss on the release if you don't time it correctly. This means that if you were the type of person that didn't really pay attention to LN endings and release them too early or too late (or usually get 200 or below on LNs), you're going to be hurt a lot by this new change.

Therefore, I strongly suggest you mania players to look again (and even try it out yourselves) into the LN changes, and see if you guys are satisfied with it.

This is incorrect - or rather how you described LNs in score v1 is incorrect. Your message is still correct, however - I would recommend people to try out the LN changes.

LNs in score v1 are based on two criteria - the gap between last LN head hit and the LN head (let's say, LNStart), and the combined time of the difference between the last LN head hit and the LN head (LNStart) and the difference between the LN release and when you're supposed to release the LN (LNEnd).

If you release a LN too early and you repress the LN, that repress would be considered your last LN head hit.

Here are the timing windows for OD8 (I assume timing values are truncated), for the first criterion (LNStart):
300g: 19ms (16ms * 1.2 rounded down)
300: 44ms (40ms * 1.1)
200: 73ms
100: 103ms
50: 127ms

Basically, if the last LN head hit is 20ms from the LN head, you will never get a 300g. If your last LN head hit is 14ms, as long as it meets the second criterion, you will get a 300g.

The second criterion works like this, keep in mind this accounts for the combined time of LNStart and LNEnd.
300g: 38ms (16ms * 2.4 rounded down)
300: 88ms (40ms * 2.2)
200: 146ms (73ms * 2)
100: 206ms (103ms * 2)
50s: 254ms (127ms * 2)

If your LNStart is 14ms, you have a release window of 24ms for a 300g, a 74ms release window for a normal 300, 132ms window for a 200, and so on. If this was scorev2, your release windows will be 24ms/66ms/104ms. Not necessarily a change with rainbows, but it greatly affects 200s and lower judgements.

How LN releases can potentially be 2.4x as lenient as normal hits is when you have a perfect LNStart (0ms) and you hit a rainbow 300. Same deal with normal 300s, except it's 2.2x as lenient based on the table above.

What iJinjin has said about requiring community input about LNs is definitely necessary, because the 1.5x lenience is a complete mislead as the LN mechanics are not explicitly listed anywhere on the forums. Play through LN heavy charts that you have issues FCing or getting 96%+, and let smoogi (and post your thoughts in this thread) know so we know whether or not we should make LNs more lenient. I personally want LN releases to be 1.75x as lenient rather than 1.5x, but again - this is something that requires experimenting.

iJinjin wrote:

However, the current system for LN releases actually works as follows:
2.4x timing leniency for Rainbow 300s
2.2x timing leniency for 300
2.0x timing leniency for everything else

Actually, it's slightly different from that.

To get a Rainbow 300:
- You must hit the start within a timing window that is 1.2x the size of the timing window of a Rainbow in a regular note.
- AND, the average of the error in the start and the release must be within a timing window that is 1.2x the size of a Rainbow in a regular note.
(the 2.4x actually represents the sum of the error in press and error in release).
- AND, the error in release must be within the timing error of a 50 judgment.
- AND, there must be no hold breaks.

To get a 300: Same as rainbow, but with timing windows that are 1.1x the size (and you must have missed the conditions to get a Rainbow, of course).

To get a 200 or 100: Same as before, but with timing windows that are 1.0x the size, and the condition of not breaking the hold is removed.

To get a 50: The only condition is releasing the note within the time window of a 50 in a regular note.

proposing a combo v2 formula that does not need combo cap.

Hey all,

Cutting Edge has been updated with changes to ScoreV2 that were proposed by Shoegazer here. I want to stress that the changes are not final and we are still tweaking the system to properly represent a player's skill in a competitive setting.

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

Edit: Posting this because I've explained it on reddit:

There are two components to the score.
- Accuracy
Essentially as accuracy increases we want you to gain more and more score while accounting for the difficulty of maintaining a 99%+ accuracy over 90%. To do this accuracy is exponentiated so that it is not quite a linear multiplier. In the previous iteration it was raised to the 10th power, in the new iteration it is raised to a factor of the accuracy.
This has the effect of causing lower accuracies to not be so much of dead weight as they were previously, while still providing a steep curve towards 100% accuracy as seen in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/sykzM

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

smoogipooo wrote:

Hey all,

Cutting Edge has been updated with changes to ScoreV2 that were proposed by Shoegazer here. I want to stress that the changes are not final and we are still tweaking the system to properly represent a player's skill in a competitive setting.

Please note that HD/FI/FL mod multipliers have not yet been removed. These are slated to be removed in the next iteration of changes.

Idk what to say '-'

Personally i think that being able to hold 400 combo really depends on the song, some songs will have this being easily achievable despite the songs overall difficulty due quiet sections with lighter patterns, at least in 4key i would suggest raising this or having the system account for how hard it is to hold combo in a certain song overall and change judgement slightly based on that however that may just be me ._.

edit* i feel for 7keys 400 seems about right but maybe its because im at a low level and far less consistent

Here are my irrelevant opinions, I'll keep it short:

Combo: score v1 is fine, Shoegazer's suggestion might make it very slightly better than that.

Accuracy: same as above

LN timings: should be made more lenient than score v1, not tighter. There's a reason LN spam maps are made lower OD by mappers.

Mod multipliers: the only thing actually worth adding, finding the right multiplier for each mod so that pp for mods can be added until per-mod leaderboards get implemented.

EDIT: and yeah visual mods shouldn't have multipliers but that's already sorted.

My verdict: score v1 is probably the smallest of problems in osu!mania, other than adding mod multipliers for DT pp this is a waste of time.

So, i suppose, no changes will EVER come to Stable Fallback and no Score v2 to mania?

Changes will not be coming to Stable Fallback.

robby250 wrote:

Here are my irrelevant opinions, I'll keep it short:

Combo: score v1 is fine, Shoegazer's suggestion might make it very slightly better than that.

Accuracy: same as above

LN timings: should be made more lenient than score v1, not tighter. There's a reason LN spam maps are made lower OD by mappers.

Mod multipliers: the only thing actually worth adding, finding the right multiplier for each mod so that pp for mods can be added until per-mod leaderboards get implemented.

EDIT: and yeah visual mods shouldn't have multipliers but that's already sorted.

My verdict: score v1 is probably the smallest of problems in osu!mania, other than adding mod multipliers for DT pp this is a waste of time.

I disagree. Scorev1 frequently has me beating my old scores where the old score has a higher accuracy and a similar combo. Hopefully this can mitigate that sort of thing, as it's really annoying when it happens. While I can't say anything about the release timing leniency as I haven't tried scorev2 (and I assume I can't, since cutting edge can't do multiplayer without supporter), the fact that LNs are split into two notes is a fantastic change imo. This gives the player much better feedback for how well they did on the start of an LN, and you can no longer cheese LN stuff by just holding everything and taking the 200s.
If anything, I'd say the game feeling good to play is far more important than "pp".

You might make a poll to know how much peoples are playing each mode so you can adjust multipliers properly...

Arras wrote:

I disagree. Scorev1 frequently has me beating my old scores where the old score has a higher accuracy and a similar combo. Hopefully this can mitigate that sort of thing, as it's really annoying when it happens. While I can't say anything about the release timing leniency as I haven't tried scorev2 (and I assume I can't, since cutting edge can't do multiplayer without supporter), the fact that LNs are split into two notes is a fantastic change imo. This gives the player much better feedback for how well they did on the start of an LN, and you can no longer cheese LN stuff by just holding everything and taking the 200s.
If anything, I'd say the game feeling good to play is far more important than "pp".

I'm all for LNs being split into two parts for better feedback, and yeah I haven't tested scorev2 either because I can't but from what I've read in this thread the LNs were made tighter, when they should be the same or more lenient.

I'm not sure the changes in score v2 would fix the issue you're mentioning as so far it seems to be similar but with the combo cap higher at 400.

Star rating is broken when you look at a per-map basis, but assuming that everyone plays every map (which is the case as there are so few of them), it's fine.

Maybe for you pp isn't important but the complete lack of difficult maps kills the game for higher end players.

Therefore I believe the most important issue remaining is the lack of maps for top players, which also kills competition and activity from top players, and with fewer top players and less competition there's much less attraction for the game mode overall.

Ranking more maps isn't something that can be done as easily as adding mod pp, so just add mod pp faster instead of trying to fix a score system that isn't broken.

Star rating and pp is irrelevant to this entire discussion. ScoreV2 will not even be ranked for a long time, and pp/sr calculations are a completely separate matter altogether.

smoogipooo wrote:

Star rating and pp is irrelevant to this entire discussion. ScoreV2 will not even be ranked for a long time, and pp/sr calculations are a completely separate matter altogether.

Yeah that's fine, sorry for derailing, I did however give my feedback on what I think about score v2 and what should be changed so take it or leave it.

I tried out ScoreV2 in multiplayer yesterday and one person in the match literally SS'd the song but had one miss in the middle and got 896k for that. It probably would have been around 997-998k without the miss, and probably like 980-990k on regular Score. I'm not really a fan of how insanely the combo affects you score, and I'm personally hoping that it gets changed in some manner. One of the things I always liked about mania better than standard is the fact that in standard, it almost doesn't matter how well you actually do because if you hold a higher combo you get a higher score. I liked that in mania you can miss, but the emphasis is more on getting as many rainbow 300s and 300s as possible. I'm definitely all for some kind of combo system, but not one that punishes as hard as this lol

MegaAmoonguss wrote:

I tried out ScoreV2 in multiplayer yesterday and one person in the match literally SS'd the song but had one miss in the middle and got 896k for that. It probably would have been around 997-998k without the miss, and probably like 980-990k on regular Score. I'm not really a fan of how insanely the combo affects you score, and I'm personally hoping that it gets changed in some manner. One of the things I always liked about mania better than standard is the fact that in standard, it almost doesn't matter how well you actually do because if you hold a higher combo you get a higher score. I liked that in mania you can miss, but the emphasis is more on getting as many rainbow 300s and 300s as possible. I'm definitely all for some kind of combo system, but not one that punishes as hard as this lol

We need more information, specifically:

* How long was the map?
* Were they actually using ScoreV2? Or even the updated ScoreV2? Keep in mind they have to be on Cutting Edge to try it.

smoogipooo wrote:

We need more information, specifically:

* How long was the map?
* Were they actually using ScoreV2? Or even the updated ScoreV2? Keep in mind they have to be on Cutting Edge to try it.

I guess it wasn't an updated version. I just used the ScoreV2 that is available in the latest stable release, which I guess must be an old version. The map was Sakura Mirage [ADVANCED], which is a low 3 star map and is 2 minutes long. I'll definitely check out the Cutting Edge version to see how it compares.

http://puu.sh/puPSz/42e2a1abb5.jpg

Here i got a Score with old Version of V2 and it feels way to low btw im not one of the ACC players so im kinda suck at r300 ratio but still feels low

I think the main problem is that by making combo so important you're encouraging mashing in a mode that already has super lenient windows and a lack of excess press window.

MegaAmoonguss wrote:

smoogipooo wrote:

We need more information, specifically:

* How long was the map?
* Were they actually using ScoreV2? Or even the updated ScoreV2? Keep in mind they have to be on Cutting Edge to try it.

I guess it wasn't an updated version. I just used the ScoreV2 that is available in the latest stable release, which I guess must be an old version. The map was Sakura Mirage [ADVANCED], which is a low 3 star map and is 2 minutes long. I'll definitely check out the Cutting Edge version to see how it compares.

osu!mania ScoreV2 does not exist on anything but Cutting Edge at the moment, so it's possible that the player in question was not using it. Likewise you would've seen the old scoring for yourself.

The today's update for ScoreV2 is way better, and properly rewards the combo. The scores are closer to ScoreV1.
I think that we should regain life when we hold sliders, like in ScoreV1.

Mathisca wrote:

I think that we should regain life when we hold sliders, like in ScoreV1.

Iii dont agree with this, the HP rate in o!m is generally very lenient, and we dont have a constant hp drain like in standard, failing in mania is generally because the chart is way way above the player's abilities.

Kernaus wrote:

Mathisca wrote:

I think that we should regain life when we hold sliders, like in ScoreV1.

Iii dont agree with this, the HP rate in o!m is generally very lenient, and we dont have a constant hp drain like in standard, failing in mania is generally because the chart is way way above the player's abilities.

Actually just noticed this in a multi I played earlier too. Not sure if HP is fine with LNs atm and want more opinions.

That being said I've also noticed quite a few HP bugs and will begin sorting them out soon.

Actually I did notice that people have failed songs with V2 that they have never failed before. Maybe it's part of a bug, or because of the harder LNs. This definitely needs more testing.
Other than that, occasionally it showed me right at the end of the song that I have failed it, even though I had a FC. I haven't tested the newest version yet, maybe it's already fixed.

By the way, thanks for changing the Combo system. This should be more in line of what people expect from such a system.
I do have the suggestion to maybe not make the cap static, but dynamic (i.e. 10-20% of the total notes). This would help to make 4K and 7K equally hard in this regard, since 4K usually has less notes in a similar difficulty level. Also this might avoid problems with songs with less than 400 notes (not relevant for MWC).

i tried some LN Converts and i think it is fine with no regen cause i cant spam thru the song i have actually to play it l

Yeah, osu!mania's very lenient HP gain on LNs was one of the major things preventing clears from being impressive on songs with a decent amount of LNs. Now that this has changed, perhaps clearing songs can be more of a goal in and of itself.

rohen04 wrote:

Actually I did notice that people have failed songs with V2 that they have never failed before. Maybe it's part of a bug, or because of the harder LNs. This definitely needs more testing.
Other than that, occasionally it showed me right at the end of the song that I have failed it, even though I had a FC. I haven't tested the newest version yet, maybe it's already fixed.

By the way, thanks for changing the Combo system. This should be more in line of what people expect from such a system.
I do have the suggestion to maybe not make the cap static, but dynamic (i.e. 10-20% of the total notes). This would help to make 4K and 7K equally hard in this regard, since 4K usually has less notes in a similar difficulty level. Also this might avoid problems with songs with less than 400 notes (not relevant for MWC).

Yeap that's a bug, if they failed instantaneously when the map was completed :p

okay i think i found a Bug when u start a Song and press only one note Your score hits example 190 and start to grow fast->slowly

smoogipooo wrote:

- Combo
Combo is the harder one to talk about. We want to award holding combo, but at the same time not punish holding 4000 combo and missing once too much. To achieve this your individual hit scores are weighted by the combo you have after hitting the note. In the previous iteration this was a linear relationship, which resulted in punishing for missing after holding 4000 combo. In the new iteration it is logarithmic, with a cap at log_4(400) (meaning combo > 400 will be weighed as if your combo was 400), as shown in this graph (red = old, blue = new): https://u-gi.me/oJ6sa

This is a lot better, but combo still has some influence on score. I think a purely accuracy based scoring system is what osu!mania really needs:

1. Inconsistent gameplay is already punished in a 100% accuracy based score. Inconsistent gameplay = missing notes and not timing well, resulting in lower accuracy and score. No need to involve combo at all here.
2. Gone are the days of beating your personal best score on a song with a lower accuracy, sometimes even resulting in a loss(!) of pp.
3. A purely accuracy based scoring system is a lot simpler and more predictable. Hit notes = higher score. Good timing = higher score. Right now you need to be mathematically inclined in order to comprehend or do calculations with both ScoreV1 and ScoreV2.
4. No weird edge cases like '1 miss 10 seconds in' being punished more severely than '1 miss on the last note'.

So basically just Keep It Simple, Stupid. Any thoughts on this?