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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

That would be same as saying "Your AR/OD10 map is unrankable because its a HR of an original" to a mapper. Please never do that.
But if something is a copy of another map with just changed OD and AR that is unrankable AFAIK.

HK_ wrote:

You are the one picking here. You asked for a map, i gave you a map. Thats it.
I was asking for a map as a rhetorical statement to get you thinking about how few maps have high AR and OD, but you're too thick to get that through your tiny skull.

HK_ wrote:

I wouldnt blame you if you actualy dared to look at my #1.
Your number 1 score is shit AND on a farm map, but it makes more of a point to show that you play 2 star maps.

HK_ wrote:

There is someone who actually uses CS10??? The more you know...
CS7 is the highest CS you can use in a normal map IIRC.

HK_ wrote:

And they are using HR to get 1,06x score boost not those values lmao
No, the majority are using HR to get those values to get increased PP gain, twat.

HK_ wrote:

Where did DT go to then? Its a no mod DT of that map. Deal with it.
Please tell me what you're smoking so I can get some

You're playing the map in DT except for some reason you decided to make the map unranked instead of actually playing the ranked version with DT to have a proper experience.

HK_ wrote:

But you dont need AR10,3/11 up until crazy high rank.
You don't "need" AR10.3 at all, and nobody even sightreads AR11.

HK_ wrote:

your words not mine sry
The main reason for that statement is that people generally come here for advice, we give them a set of rules and guidelines to follow. High ranked players know their shit and don't need rules or guidelines to follow because they already fucking know how to play and improve well.
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple
Does HD pp bonus is calculted from basic score (raw pp from a song) or after DoubleTime (pp score with DT)?
Flat bonuses from HD, FL and CS5.2+ come after DT or HR is applied
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

CXu wrote:

@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skill
Genki1000
106 posts
Joined August 2013
Genki1000

HK_ wrote:

CXu wrote:

@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skill
If nomod can help you play DT, why would adding HR to the same map not help you anymore
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR.
Untrue. Learning HR to learn AR10 is a good way to prepare yourself for playing AR 10.3 with DT. Just like playing DT earlier to learn AR 9.67 is a good way to prepare yourself to learn AR10 with HR.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

HK_ wrote:

CXu wrote:

@HK_: You're essentially just saying that you get better at the game by playing the game. Playing hr/dt/hd will most likely be a better way to improve those specific mods, or set of skills though.
Yep thats right. By playing certain mod you will certainly get better at that mod but at that mod only, You wont get anywhere with DT by playing HR. Thats why i said no mod is best to increase overall skill
But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva

CXu wrote:

But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
By using this and making DT out of some map + adding HR to it, it would most certainly make it possible to practice DT by playing HR haha
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

HK_ wrote:

CXu wrote:

But you even suggested that you could edit maps so that they have ar/od/hp/cs as if they were hr, so similarily, you could do the exact same thing with hr to practice dt by editing the map so it has lower ar/od/hp/cs, and then speed the map up (with some tool) and then slap on hr.
By using this and making DT out of some map + adding HR to it, it would most certainly make it possible to practice DT by playing HR haha
Or you could just play the map with DTHR?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Where is logic in changing map to make it look like "HR" or "DT"?
Where is logic to make full map unranked and play it with changed stats when you will be still unable to play ranked version?

Answer for both: there is no logic in this action.

To change map into HR you need additionaly flip it in X-Axis which takes time - pointless. Waste of time what you can use to actualy PLAY this map with HR and start learning it.
To change map into DT... also waste of time. Same, use it to just play and learn.

My editor usage starts and end on cutting ceratin part of map (single pattern) what gives me huge truble and training it - WITHOUT changed map stats since main reason is to learn how it works, how to play it, train your muscle memory and eyes on it in order to achieve good score in ranked map.

If someone still think that playing nomod will prepare you to play DT/HR... or delusional myth "changing map into OD10 will make my acc better" please go to reddit with this discussion and stop derailing thread (or create another one).
This is my humble request. I think we don't want to piss off peppy when some mod close this topic becouse of too much bullshit and spam.

EoT for me.
xhale
16 posts
Joined July 2014
xhale
I just lost 13pp and dropped like 150 ranks when i beat my score on apples to the core. original score was 98.65% with DT, and the new score was 96,33% with HD,DT. I'm sure people have mentioned this before. I got really mad, and tried to fix it. now I can't even beat the first part anymore, because of retrying so much. Maybe HD should give abit more pp? It's the same for everyone, so why not?
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama
Because it's a rhythm game and shit accuracy shouldn't be more rewarded than better accuracy just because you decided to play with fade-out circles rather than approach circles in a map with no overlaps.
Barusamikosu_old_1
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu_old_1

xhaled wrote:

I just lost 13pp and dropped like 150 ranks when i beat my score on apples to the core. original score was 98.65% with DT, and the new score was 96,33% with HD,DT. I'm sure people have mentioned this before. I got really mad, and tried to fix it. now I can't even beat the first part anymore, because of retrying so much. Maybe HD should give abit more pp? It's the same for everyone, so why not?
This is why you never ever play HD after getting a good score or at all. It's different if you're already good at HD and confident you can keep your accuracy, but most people are terrible at HD so this kind of thing happens.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Well I'm posting here something very interesting I've found about some DT maps with different pp efficiency levels, and how some kind of pattenrs are pp ineficient and how some others are too pp efficent. Here I post you my toughts of 6 different cases of DT maps that can give 250's pp. Starting from least pp efficent to most pp efficent.

07th Expansion - worldenddominator [La cataline]: Old school map that is really tricky at terms of tapping complexity and with some really unfortable patterns and known for having a duplets spam that bothers most persons. You can still enter to its #50's even playing no mod.
Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
Lindsey Stirling - Elements [Fire]: This is a respectful map that isn't too farmed due it has some interesting streams, sliderstreams and some curius jumps. It's not friendly or badass for pp means.
Skrillex & The Doors - Breakn' a Sweat (Original Mix) [Insane]: This map is really fine, but it is being a way too abused due it drops absurd pp values on really high accuracy. The higher your accuracy is on here the more overrated in pp your rank on this is.
Primastella - Koigokoro [Deli's Insane]: Koigokoro isn't an easy map, but is known from being one of most farmed maps in osu. From being overrated on this star system and high amount of circles this map proves it's very pp friendly aswell its sister the Insane is.
Tsunamaru - Daidai Genome: This map is indeed the most broken pp map in existance. Nothing easy but at being too overvalued it encourages too many players to farm it. OVERRATED at both star system and from pp given by accuracy.





Facts to consider
Worldenddominator 213 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.41 stars, 485 circles, 291 sliders
Skillet hero 213 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.39 STARS, 418 circles, 208 sliders
Lindsey Stirling elements 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, 5.73 stars, 392 circles, 206 sliders
Breakn Sweat “210 bpm”, OD9.67, AR9.67, 5.31 stars, 332 circles, 320 sliders
Koigokoro 210 bpm, OD9, AR9.67, “5.51” stars, 348 circles, 125 sliders
Daidai genome 203 bpm, OD9.67, AR9.67, “6 stars”, 425 circles, 70 sliders


Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
2.- PP optained from accuracy at higher values of OD + higher amount of tapable elements is very farmable.
3.- Maps with comfortable spacing and easy tapping but high settings and high spacing are the most farmable.
4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...

Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

ReynBolt wrote:

Skillet - Hero [Insane]: Another old school map that is known for being a challenge to many due to the really uncomfortable spacing and slider shapes.
I thought it was just the OD 9.67 that made it a bitch to get good accuracy on. Got any examples?

Also, I'm wondering how much pp daidai genome would give if it had been OD 7 + DT instead of OD 8.
jaaakb
2,512 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb

ReynBolt wrote:

Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
current pp thingy doesn't take into account patterns (directions) at all, just the length/speed of jumps
troll patterns are not underrated, they are not rated at all, nor are easy patterns

ReynBolt wrote:

4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...

Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
acc = pp

current pp thing doesn't take into account tapping patterns (complex/hard to tap or very simple) at all, so the easy ones to acc will seem easier ppwise
the stars do what they are meant to, it's just the system not taking into account some big (subjective) parts of what makes stuff difficult


please correct me if i'm wrong
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
It isn't about maps being overrated with DT.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

jaaakb wrote:

ReynBolt wrote:

Conclusion
1.- Troll patterns with higher amount of sliders are being underrated, regardless if they're OD9.67 because there is no accuracy from sliders.
current pp thingy doesn't take into account patterns (directions) at all, just the length/speed of jumps
troll patterns are not underrated, they are not rated at all, nor are easy patterns

ReynBolt wrote:

4.- Most pp efficent maps end being these with higher relation of circles/sliders, more circles more accuracy, if more sliders... well I'm not sure...

Most pp efficent maps are both overrated from star system and their settings, this needs fixing later.
acc = pp

current pp thing doesn't take into account tapping patterns (complex/hard to tap or very simple) at all, so the easy ones to acc will seem easier ppwise
the stars do what they are meant to, it's just the system not taking into account some big (subjective) parts of what makes stuff difficult


please correct me if i'm wrong
I find all this fine.


Endaris wrote:

It isn't about maps being overrated with DT.
The maps are already overrated with nomod.
There's a reason why I have DT-farm-maps without DT on my topplays.
That was why I only evaluated DT maps, there are UNDERRATED DT maps aswell. But lots of people rather complaining "play DT for pp" instead of "play free accuracy maps for pp". By free accuracy maps I mean all these maps that anyone can optain high accuracy with not to much effort, that anyone farms because they're free accuracy = free pp (regardless of mod that you're using). And it's a fact that most of these free accuracy maps are DT ones, but it's a lie that ANY is DT, but it's a true fact that some free pp no mod maps with HR over them aren't that free pp, similar to Our Stolen Theory - United (L.A.O.S Remix) that many farms with no mod but when HR is added it doesn't seem to me a farm map.

United no mod = pp for hungreds of people
United + HR = pp for about 20 players in the top #50's
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil
@ReynBolt

The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.

It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)

Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.

Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Hero is frustrating to play because OD 8 + DT instead of OD7.
E m i
E m i
tfw can't fc first half of koigokoro and daidai genome
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Mikakage wrote:

@ReynBolt

The thing about maps like Daidai Genome and Koigokoro are that their high difficulty rating come from difficulty spikes at certain parts of the map, you can play most of the map relaxing and just need to really focus for some specific parts. Compared to worldenddominator and Hero that have a constant difficulty through the whole map so you have to focus all the time to hit every single note, they are easier considering the amount of skill required but harder because you need to be at that skill level all the time.

It's the same for no mod and HR "farm" maps, they are relatively easy most of the time with some spikes of difficulty that are worth the difficulty of the map, Ame to Asphalt for example is just a 4.92 stars map if you remove the jumps from the last 10 seconds. It's not a matter of pattern complexity or anything, it's just that you play the whole map quite relaxed and focus for real in the last 10 seconds to be able to dish all the pp from the 6.03 stars that this end is worth (If you delete the rest of the map leaving only the end, it is still a 5.86 star map)

Making it short, the 'farm maps' aren't about pattern complexity (although this makes it harder) or length (although this helps with retry faster) but the difficulty spread through the map. It doesn't matter if the map have the strangest sliders followed by a full screen star if it's just six seconds section of the map, you can just retry until you hit it once and take all the pp home.

Side note here: Hero is just frustrating to play because tutuhaha maps are just derp to play with the same sliders and triples patterns, with or without mods.
Well yes. The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps, that sometimes are few seconds lenght. I've mentionated that case earlier in the 153'th page, you can look at it here and finding the post. I personally think that the star system needs ton consider both highest star level and average star level and pp being considered by the average one. But it's very known that these map with too many stars wth difficulty peaks are giving more pp than intended because the actual system calculates these map likely if the WHOLE MAP is as HARD as HARDEST parts are, even if only a really small fraction (several seconds on some case) of the map have that real difficulty.

But in the case showed in the earlier post of mine, we have a case of a consistent map that is being better rated againist an inconsistent one that is known from being badass. Shounen radio neu [gold] isn't completely consistent, but its peaks of difficulty aren't based in too small periods of time ... instead a considerable fraction of the map is as hard as most dificult parts. I can't really explain this well at all, it's not simple to me .-.



[Now to general topic]

And yes, I can't FC koikogokoro or Dai Dai genome DT's, but still too many people find these maps too easy because these patterns are clean and they are focused at only aiming and tapping clean patterns (no tricky pauses nor change of timming or radical changes at the osng) and I personally find unfair that a group of players that can't do these maps get a grave handicap in ranking just because not being capable to FC THREE maps (the 2 insanes of koigokoro and Daidai genome) that are known to give much pp. I just want that this game becomes "be free to rank anything you want" instead of seing the existance of many "THIS IS A MUST TO HAVE MAP"

Be noticed that it's true that there are people that ranks over 100 positions at 1200-2000th only with Genome FC... Why a single map has to be THAT important? please no q-q
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

ReynBolt wrote:

The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
That's bullshit.
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Endaris wrote:

ReynBolt wrote:

The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
That's bullshit.
it's not 100% accurate, but it's not bullshit either

Endaris wrote:

Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
daidai has that one fullscreen triangle pattern somewhere halfway through the map and the ending has a difficulty spike, other than that it's not that hard. koigokoro has about the same difficulty throughout the map i agree. it's just that the difficulty comes from something that most people dont actually find all that difficult.

Endaris wrote:

The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
no, if a map is 6 stars purely because of, say, 1 star pattern, while otherwise it's not even 4 stars, then all you have to do is get lucky on the star pattern to get the pp for a 6 star map. if the map is 6 stars throughout the whole thing you just can't do that.

Endaris wrote:

The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
you just argued against yourself here, you're telling the other person they are right. it's not about the flatness of a map, it's about how high it's peak is.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
No.
Because a map with a peak at the very beginning or the very end is still flat compared to a map with a peak in the middle.
It yields a psychological advantage if it's flat and you can also get more pp without even completing the pattern successfully.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.

I think it's the same pattern as in the beginning of seiken nante iranai in the lower right.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Kheldragar wrote:

Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.

I think it's the same pattern as in the beginning of seiken nante iranai in the lower right.

Or maybe they just don't want to FC them because they hate the maps. Although, doing this prevents them from being allowed to bitch about being ranked lower than people who they are better than. Not that they would anyway, since they wouldn't care about other peoples rank if they don't even care about their own.

Less-skilled players who actually CAN'T get the pp tend to be the ones that complain about pp maps the most.

There shouldn't be a select few maps you should have play to compete rank-wise if you don't want to be underranked, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy and have your 'skill' gauged accurately by pp, but it isn't so.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Riince is right.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
I can't FC daidai or Koigokoro but I don't care because I can call people who have them on their top ranks overranked trash
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Mahoganytooth wrote:

I can't FC daidai or Koigokoro but I don't care because I can call people who have them on their top ranks overranked trash
yes it's their fault the maps are overweighted, flawless logic.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
no, its their fault they're overranked
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
wait, I thought that was sarcasm
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
It was

But I was also slightly serious

Sometimes I don't even know
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
I'm not sure, but I'm seing hungreds of players that their only goal is playing for pp, not about becoming as good at many possible maps nor playing these songs that they like. What about playing harder or tricky maps and doing them FC or just playing to see general improvement on any kind of map and not just on pp ones?

And it's not a coinsidence that maps that are overrated at pp are played the most frequent and the least pp efficent the most avoided maps. It's a fact, good players on the #50's are being beaten by weaker but higher ranked players just because these are more interested at extracting each possible pp, not because they're really better at all.

What really bothers me? that I spend lots of efforts FCing an hard map to then play later an easier map with less effort but gaining more pp... I just complain because I don't like how things are going (whatever IS THAT REASSON, please it's just a personal tought). I have profs of some pp's system inefficency, I'm not lying but maybe I'm focusing these proofs for personal interest and not acting for general interest like I did in earlier posts.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Endaris wrote:

Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
Lots of players have Daidai Genome as one of their top performances worth around 270 pp with an A rank because of the last seconds of the map, specially the three triples followed by some weird angled jumps. the start of the choruses are also significantly harder than the others parts in the map, but not even close to the final pattern. Koigokoro is constant.

Endaris wrote:

The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
I think I get what you're saying here. A map being constant is better considering it only has very sparse spikes, if it gets lots of spikes the map becomes significantly harder.

But if you're talking about not having any spikes at all, nah. It's harder.

Kheldragar wrote:

Maybe the people who can't fc daidai or koigokoro deserve to be lagged in rank behind the people that can because, get this, they don't have the skill to fc those maps! Daidai is annoying though, the small patterns on the left and right side of the screen fucked me up more than the big jumps ever did.

Riince wrote:

Or maybe they just don't want to FC them because they hate the maps. Although, doing this prevents them from being allowed to bitch about being ranked lower than people who they are better than. Not that they would anyway, since they wouldn't care about other peoples rank if they don't even care about their own.
If the map pool from where you can farm isn't limited this is what will happen, it's the best pick optimal maps if they want to increase rank. One should also assume that everyone will go to these maps instead of bitching about honor or some other bullshit and refusing to play these.

But of course, each player should play their strong points. Daidai Genome is an aim map, you will farm in it if this is your best aspect. Speed players should go to maps like Midnight Siege, and Accuracy players can play long maps with constant but easy difficulty as M@sterpiece (or for no mod, some of the one many DnB maps around 5.5 stars with OD 9).

Riince wrote:

There shouldn't be a select few maps you should have play to compete rank-wise if you don't want to be underranked, you should be able to play whatever you enjoy and have your 'skill' gauged accurately by pp, but it isn't so.
The problem is that the system gauges three different skills: Aim, Speed and Accuracy. We cannot see how much of it each player have like the old tp site.

A player might be worse than an player bellow him in two aspects but still have a higher ranking because his one best aspect is rated higher than the other two from the second player.

Here, the problem is with the map pool size (hundreds of thousands of maps) and the dominating mapping style.
Last edited by Reyvateil , edited 1 time in total.
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake

Endaris wrote:

ReynBolt wrote:

The star system only considers the hardest parts on maps
That's bullshit.
Especially for Koigokoro and Daidai it's very obvious that they have no serious difficulty spikes which enables players to fc them once they can play the map as they won't get stuck on a single hard pattern.
The more flat a map is in terms of difficulty the better for pp-farm.
The few maps that have only 1 outstanding pattern at the very beginning or the very end are mostly flat too and you can take some pp by just fc'ing the rest of the map. Once you have two or more of such patterns maybe without such a high peak the map will be noticeable harder to pp.
I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

uberpancake wrote:

I'd like to mention that best friendS long ver is exaxtly what you described in the last sentence. It's a map with 3 ( or was it 4?) Difficulty spikes and a much easier map for the rest of the song. Also maps with spikes tend to be farm maps though. 7 - seven, remote control, jojo, best friendS etc...
Would like to clarify that the shorter the spikes are, the more farmable is. I find that some maps with their peaks are rightly judged likely hvick225 Sagara Kokoro - Hoshizora no Ima [S.S] because the peak stands enough time to require constancy on skill and not about pure luck on a random play ... meanwhile I find FLOWxGRANRODEO - 7 -seven- -TV SIZE - a way too overrated because the peaks stands too low time and seems very tryhardable and sucess ratio seems to be too high for a 500 pp play map.

About remote control... well... it's a weird case of OD10.33 DT play. If OD10 is too strong at really high values of accuracy then OD10.33 should be even stronger. I don't find that map broken on pp at all because the spacing that it has on its peaks is enough to make it not a mere "free accuracy map" likely we see on many other DT maps, but because it has 3-4 pikes of too low length seems that if you're somehow lucky you can obtain good pp from a good random play even at not being consistent on all the plays.

Resuming...
peaks of difficulty = tryhardable
Retrying for a lucky rank = worth on pp
^ this can be aplied at both cases FC or high accuracy.
The more peaks the less tryhardable/farmable is
Tysonzero
2 posts
Joined February 2015
Tysonzero
My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.

I understand why this is currently the case (only one score can be scored, and it prioritizes score over PP value understandably), but it should not be that hard to adjust the unique constraint from (player, map) to something like (player, map, pp_score) where pp_score is a boolean/tinyint that is true if the score has a lower score but higher pp value than your previous best.

Either that or find some way to merge score and PP together by adjusting the PP system or by adjusting the score system, or some combination of both.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

Tysonzero wrote:

My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
Don't worry man, I heard this is going to be fixed in some big update down the line.
E m i
E m i

Tysonzero wrote:

My only (admittedly pretty big) qualm with the difficulty system right now is that IMO it should NEVER be possible for replacing your score to DECREASE your PP.
soon™
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Khelly wrote:

Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

jesus1412 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Tom's not going to do that, he's only going to make it so you can't get a higher score with a different mod combo overwrite higher pp plays.
Pretty sure he's gonna do both? You're gonna be able to submit a hr score and dt score to the same map but that's separate from the plan to remove pp reducing score submission.
I think I asked him on his ask fm a few months ago and he said something about not doing both because only keeping the highest pp score requires more storage of scores or something.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

actually he said only keeping the highest pp score wont happen because if something changes about pp it might not be the highest pp score anymore.
that would be a much rarer scenario than losing pp, which is an everyday thing to some people and something most people always take into consideration before playing a map with different mods, but it doesn't have to be..
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i agree with that actually. i also agree with that highest pp should be saved and not highest score, but those are tom's words.
[Lucky]
73 posts
Joined January 2012
[Lucky]
I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

[Lucky] wrote:

I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Endaris wrote:

[Lucky] wrote:

I think the mod 'Spun Out' should only cost you pp when the map actually has a spinner. :o
I think being an idiot should legitimately cost you pp.
I don't think he was an idiot, SO is worth as 95% pp but only uses half of score, meaning you can improve it easly later on when playing better.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
otoed1
639 posts
Joined May 2014
otoed1

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
More importantly, why does anyone care about pp if they're using nofail? Or Spun out? Using those mods is like saying hey, this map is too hard for me to play well. If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

otoed1 wrote:

There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
depends heavily on the player..
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

otoed1 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

It's as dumb as saying NF should only cost you pp if you fail the map.
If you can't play it well then why are you worried about pp. There is no way in hell it will be better than your top plays.
My top ranks would like a word.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I thought you were Riince, stop it.

Your 97% key to my heart is nice though. Fuck the ending.
otoed1
639 posts
Joined May 2014
otoed1

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
I might assume that actual "throw stream here, throw stream there" fast/superfast bpm stream everywhere maps (it's can be called a meta already since more and more what i see - map without stream doesn't exist) and not everyone have consistency to play this.

Jesus is still godlike player so sush :3
Purple
467 posts
Joined May 2011
Purple

otoed1 wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

My top ranks would like a word.
Nah, they don't want to talk they're too ashamed of their acc and too proud of the rest of their phat skillz. Srsly tho, how do you get as good as you with such bad acc?
Nobody becomes good without good accuracy

When you're trying to FC a map full of 280 BPM deathstreams, it's easy to give absolutely 0 fucks about accuracy. Kind of like Cookiezi's first score on remote control which was 92% or so.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Purple wrote:

Nobody becomes good without good accuracy
How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

Mikakage wrote:

His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
Perhaps he's like me and gets gud accuracy on things that are relatively easier and then just gets 92-95% fcs on the harder things because we're not that great at acc in actuality?
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Mikakage wrote:

Khelly wrote:

How so?

https://osu.ppy.sh/u/606544
His accuracy is good, just not the best at these extremely fast maps. A 98.98% Muteki no Soldier or his 91.91% at FREEDMAN plays aren't something to laugh at.
for someone of his skill level,that accuracy on muteki is shit. i got fewer 100s back in 2013
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

HK_ wrote:

So when a normal player gets 92% then its a shitpass with shitty accuracy but when a pro gets 92% then thats good accuracy? Please make up your mind.
only when its something noone else can fc with high acc

/e



or a lot of jesse's top ranks
-Kanzaki
889 posts
Joined June 2012
-Kanzaki
I suggest that the star difficulty cannot understand these kind of sliders so make it understand them :
screenshots
,



selected circle is 3

Here is my map as an example : Flux Pavillion - I Can't Stop - 01:18:813 (1,2,3) - thats the objects in the screenshots.

So it is 4.22 star but i named it extra because i used some big spaces on these kind of sliders. Just testplay it and think about it "Is it really 4.22 star map or its acctualy harder?"

Here is an good example check the star difficulty of lan's extra and play it do you still think it is 4.93 stars? : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/319661&m=0
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Yeah, but that's kind of obvious cause stardiff measures how easy it is to SS.
As sliders have a huge timewindow to get a 300 on(250ms window on OD7.2), large jumps to sliders aren't worth as much cause it will think you have more time to jump, like 100ms more than for a jump to a circle.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Yes, we know the star difficulty algorithm messes up sliders. In a lot of maps you can replace sliders with circles located at their heads and have the star rating increase which makes 0 sense. Above post is wrong though afaik - if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all. Algorithm just treats sliders badly.

iirc it approximates the minimum distance you can use to complete the slider and considers it to all be part of the next jump or something like that

which is all sorts of bad if true

but don't trust me on it being true because i'm not sure if it is
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.
Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

Endaris wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

if you change the OD on a map, its star difficulty doesn't change at all.
Maybe because the increase in time you get is proportional to the increase you get of a circle?
Cause if it's proportional it can be measured by length and point of time without looking into OD while still giving sliders a disadvantage in rating.
Huh? If sliders were really underrated because of what you said, the difficulty of a map should go up when you increase OD. Difficulty algorithm just assume you're hitting everything at exactly the correct time.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
idk, I thought star rating was a measurement of how hard it is to SS a map.
I couldn't find an actual definition of what it does precisely.
UltraRik
202 posts
Joined June 2014
UltraRik
This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

UltraRik wrote:

This thread is WAY to long for me to read trough everything, so I will just straight forward ask my question.

Is there a way to check pp value of a particular play?
I would love it if we could see every score's pp value, or at least demand
to see the value of a particular play for a score that does not appear in the Top Ranks
on my profile page..
If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Yeah, only if it's an FC, and then use !acc and input the acc you or they got. I don't know of any way to check for pp worth of non FC scores.
UltraRik
202 posts
Joined June 2014
UltraRik

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
If you're playing hards with DT, you're doing it wrong.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

UltraRik wrote:

Khelly wrote:

If it's not on your profile page then no, you can't. Tillerino CAN give you an estimate for an fc.
WOW that was a quick reply, thanks!

That's really sad, I wish peppy would implement a way for us to do that.. because I'm not sure
if tryharding with certain mods will be worth anything or a waste of time lol.

ALSO I strongly feel that DT scores are blown out of proportions in the pp system,
DT needs nerfing in terms of pp value. Farming DT is way too easy imo
DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
UltraRik
202 posts
Joined June 2014
UltraRik

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Jesse, what do you call "a high level"? 6.00*+? Top 100 player DT plays for 400+ pp?
Deva
2,343 posts
Joined December 2014
Deva
DT gives way too much pp thats true but DT way too easy? Please...
DT a 4.5*+ map and you will understand.

jesus1412 wrote:

It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT.
Also this. Theres so many people judging mods/play styles/ whatever and calling them bad without even trying them out, seriously wtf people???
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level
Most people don't play at a high level, though and I think it's safe to say that at a medium level of play, DT is overrated.

jesus1412 wrote:

how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT
Personally, I have 8 200+pp scores

I worked very hard for every single one of them

Except for the DT play, which was a random play that I put very little effort into and got on like the 3rd try

The same trend continues for what few DT plays I have in my top plays

I'm just doing theory work here, but DT at lower levels is (IMHO) overrated because of the OD increase. Meanwhile, at high levels, you're going to be playing HR or DT to gain PP, so the OD is high regardless of which mod you're playing, so it balances out, and DT stops being overrated because the alternative is on equal ground. I don't have any personal experience of playing at a high level like that, but I haven't found many people to disagree with my theory.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate
Jesus doesn't refer to DT maps as maps like Setting Sail or Daidai Genome, they play the same as HR maps with high resolution, slightly slower AR, and 2ms more leniency. A real DT specialty player does not benefit highly from playing maps like these. If someone can play these maps accurately, they can get pp from HR with just a little more practice, no doubt. The biggest advantage with DT is that it's not as black and white as with HR, where OD7 turns into OD9.8, because DT keeps the flow of the original mapping perfectly and only speeds it up. Playing slow maps accurately with DT is just a stepping stone into HR, it won't help you get faster for higher level DT. Basically, DT is only overrated at noob level play because HR has such a big jump on AR and OD for anything with decent aim or speed pp at it's base that they can't play it well, unlike DT which can hit that middle ground between the two. Only higher level players can feel benefits from HR, and for them, pretty much most things they can no mod can be played with HR as well. The real flaw is in the nature of the HR mod itself upon it's creation based on the way map stats are set now. I feel like I'm starting to talk aimlessly in circles so I'll stop, this isn't even pp feedback.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
basically the stuff bad players do is easy for good players

thanks you for this revelation NixXSkate
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

basically the stuff bad players do is easy for good players

thanks you for this revelation NixXSkate
8)
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

UltraRik wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level. I don't think it needs more nerfs right now. It's worth noting that you have almost no DT scores in your top performance, how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT. I think you should experiment more with mods and then come back to report.
Yeah, no, I never play DT since my FPS makes AR higher than 10 basically invisible.
But I have a lot of friends who say that DT is easy to do, also A LOT of people have
DT / HDDT scores for their Top Ranks.
AR>10 is a very high level of play that's usually not recommended for people around your rank, try ar8 DT maps and see how it goes. I'm not trying to attack you for not playing DT, I'm just saying that you should try it first and then report on it rather than "he said she said". There are maps that are very easy to gain pp from for every mod, just because more people can play DT does not mean that DT is overweighted. If you can find a way to nerf "pp" maps without nerfing the already underweighted maps then I would agree with it.

Khelly wrote:

Jesse, what do you call "a high level"? 6.00*+? Top 100 player DT plays for 400+ pp?
200+pp scores.

Mahogany wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

DT is by far the most commonly underrated mod in the game at a high level
Most people don't play at a high level, though and I think it's safe to say that at a medium level of play, DT is overrated.

jesus1412 wrote:

how do you know that it's "easy" to farm pp when next to none of your pp comes from DT
Personally, I have 8 200+pp scores

I worked very hard for every single one of them

Except for the DT play, which was a random play that I put very little effort into and got on like the 3rd try

The same trend continues for what few DT plays I have in my top plays

I'm just doing theory work here, but DT at lower levels is (IMHO) overrated because of the OD increase. Meanwhile, at high levels, you're going to be playing HR or DT to gain PP, so the OD is high regardless of which mod you're playing, so it balances out, and DT stops being overrated because the alternative is on equal ground. I don't have any personal experience of playing at a high level like that, but I haven't found many people to disagree with my theory.
This is a very reasonable answer however one overweighted map does not represent the entirety of DT. I'm glad that you're trying to point out specific things other than "DT is overweighted, nerf it". Specifics are what we need here. OD is a strange topic at the moment, a lot of people think it has too big of an influence, specifically in regard to the pp gain/loss from high/low acc FCs on the same map.

NixXSkate wrote:

Jesus doesn't refer to DT maps as maps like Setting Sail or Daidai Genome, they play the same as HR maps with high resolution, slightly slower AR, and 2ms more leniency. A real DT specialty player does not benefit highly from playing maps like these. If someone can play these maps accurately, they can get pp from HR with just a little more practice, no doubt. The biggest advantage with DT is that it's not as black and white as with HR, where OD7 turns into OD9.8, because DT keeps the flow of the original mapping perfectly and only speeds it up. Playing slow maps accurately with DT is just a stepping stone into HR, it won't help you get faster for higher level DT. Basically, DT is only overrated at noob level play because HR has such a big jump on AR and OD for anything with decent aim or speed pp at it's base that they can't play it well, unlike DT which can hit that middle ground between the two. Only higher level players can feel benefits from HR, and for them, pretty much most things they can no mod can be played with HR as well. The real flaw is in the nature of the HR mod itself upon it's creation based on the way map stats are set now. I feel like I'm starting to talk aimlessly in circles so I'll stop, this isn't even pp feedback.
This is MASSIVELY the issue, HR is DIFFERENT to nomod (which people are used to) while DT has a similar feel to nomod (essentially if you build your core skills, you're building your DT skills [aside from possibly your speed]).

Also final note, the reason I called the initial post out about this is that "nerf DT" doesn't help at all. The post literally said just to nerf all of DT which makes me want to throw rank 1 millions into a fire.




On a different topic, can we change how acc is handled. You shouldn't be punished for setting low acc scores, the system is based around not punishing you. Look at my acc over the last year:

Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany

jesus1412 wrote:

This is a very reasonable answer however one overweighted map does not represent the entirety of DT
Oh, Setting Sail is hardly the only map. I don't keep up-to-date with DT farm maps, but isn't this a similar situation with many other maps? I'm thinking this PP overweight applies to any AR8 OD8 map, and that's why maps such as several of Ztrot's pony maps are also considered good DT farm maps, along with Daidai genome (Though the difficulty spike at the end probably contributes a lot)

...then again, you also have Koigokoro, and both of the insanes are only OD7, but it still manages to be one of the most popular DT farm maps.

I think it's safe to say, though, that the OD increase is one of the major contributing factors to DT overweight.

At a medium level, HR is a lot harder to play as well as DT is. If you're playing HR it's a lot harder to get a full combo on maps with an equivalent star rating with DT (IMHO), because of the higher AR, and (often) very low note density, compared to DT-ing the map, as well as the smaller CS.
OD is also a factor and I believe OD9.67 is far easier to get good acc on compared to OD10.

Technically, HR is still more valuable than DT at a mid level. Look at my top scores. I have a 201pp HDHR SS score on a 4.38* map, compared to the ~5* 99.66% 207PP score that my DT Setting Sail gave. The problem is that the HDHR score is all acc PP, and that score was worth like 150pp for 99%, which would be completely worthless to me, whereas a DT score would still be valuable at less-than-perfect accuracy. So unless you're playing HR perfectly, which the majority of people cannot do until they start being very high ranked, the PP gain potential is simply incomparable and you're better off playing nomod rather than HR for PP.

I don't know, I'm too focused on the OD increase, because that's the only thing that really stands out to me, personally...I don't know what else it could be. In my experience, I've always found high OD to be OP, but at the same time I've always been an accuracy whore.

It'll be good to get others' inputs on this, but I've thought about this for a long time and this is my personal conclusion.

Also, I would agree with changing how acc is handled. I feel that PP is too weighted towards 99%+ scores, personally. I'd like there to be a more even spread between 97%-100%
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Mahogany wrote:

Oh, Setting Sail is hardly the only map. I don't keep up-to-date with DT farm maps, but isn't this a similar situation with many other maps? I'm thinking this PP overweight applies to any AR8 OD8 map, and that's why maps such as several of Ztrot's pony maps are also considered good DT farm maps, along with Daidai genome (Though the difficulty spike at the end probably contributes a lot)
As there are many HR farm maps out there, basically almost all MIIRO TV Size Insane and Extra difficulties are good HR farm maps. There are way more short maps with huge jumps, few triples and easy streams (like Daisy, Univer Page, Artcore Jinja, Diamond...) to farm with HR than there are with DT.

Mahogany wrote:

...then again, you also have Koigokoro, and both of the insanes are only OD7, but it still manages to be one of the most popular DT farm maps.

I think it's safe to say, though, that the OD increase is one of the major contributing factors to DT overweight.
Same with HR assuming you can get good acc. And Koigokoro is a map that is worth quite a bit and you're not so harshly penalized for getting a so-so accuracy, different from Daidai Genome because OD8 becomes very close to OD10 with DT.

Mahogany wrote:

At a medium level, HR is a lot harder to play as well as DT is. If you're playing HR it's a lot harder to get a full combo on maps with an equivalent star rating with DT (IMHO), because of the higher AR, and (often) very low note density, compared to DT-ing the map, as well as the smaller CS.
OD is also a factor and I believe OD9.67 is far easier to get good acc on compared to OD10.
Like you said. In your opinion, probably because of your skillset. Using the example bellow:

Mahogany wrote:

Technically, HR is still more valuable than DT at a mid level. Look at my top scores. I have a 201pp HDHR SS score on a 4.38* map, compared to the ~5* 99.66% 207PP score that my DT Setting Sail gave. The problem is that the HDHR score is all acc PP, and that score was worth like 150pp for 99%, which would be completely worthless to me, whereas a DT score would still be valuable at less-than-perfect accuracy. So unless you're playing HR perfectly, which the majority of people cannot do until they start being very high ranked, the PP gain potential is simply incomparable and you're better off playing nomod rather than HR for PP.
First, with HR it becomes a 4.68 star map.

Notice something you're saying in this. DT is still valuable even without less than perfect accuracy because it is harder to play assuming you can read both maps properly, it got harder patterns and jumps than Fjarlaegur, BPM is irrelevant in both. It's just that HR is harder for most players because they aren't used to play the circle size and AR10. It's fair that Fjarlaegur can only be compared to it because of the accuracy boost, actually, it is overrated if you look directly at the heart of the matter because you can make a map considerably easier worth almost as much when both maps have only a 0.5 ms timing window difference.

It is still hilarious that a single one hundred is worth 12 pp in this and 8 pp in Setting Sail. A 0.5 ms timing window difference = 4 pp difference in a longer map. Whatever... this just shows how much OD is broken.

In all these we are talking about simple maps, like most farm maps, that are relatively easy to play and don't actually have what makes both mods harder at the highest levels: streams. In DT it's high BPM streams and in HR is keeping accuracy on long streams. And keeping accuracy in a <200 BPM stream is much easier than playing 240+ BPM in general.

Mahogany wrote:

I don't know, I'm too focused on the OD increase, because that's the only thing that really stands out to me, personally...I don't know what else it could be. In my experience, I've always found high OD to be OP, but at the same time I've always been an accuracy whore.

It'll be good to get others' inputs on this, but I've thought about this for a long time and this is my personal conclusion.

Also, I would agree with changing how acc is handled. I feel that PP is too weighted towards 99%+ scores, personally. I'd like there to be a more even spread between 97%-100%
Like Jesse said, many (including myself) aren't very satisfied with how accuracy is handled. The way it scales at higher ODs is just ridiculous to the point that getting a 98.5% score feels like crap when looking at something just 1% above, the difference is huge even when there is a mere 0.5 ms difference in the timing window.

This and the balance between maps with simple difficulty spikes vs constant difficulty or high BPM streams, specially OD8 jump maps. For firetruck sake, Daidai Genome is worth almost as much as Magica with around two thirds the object count, and way more than Netoge Haijin Sprechchor. Just a glance at the leaderboards tells us which ones are harder.

PS - I'm not saying all streams are underrated, we all know spaced streams are all the rage when making good farm maps, they don't even need to be all that spaced to be worth lots compared to more condensed but way faster streams.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Good post, man.

Mikakage wrote:

Same with HR assuming you can get good acc.
Personally, I believe that it's a lot harder to get good acc with HR than with DT.

Mikakage wrote:

probably because of your skillset
That's very true, I'm not looking at this very objectively TBH, purely speaking from my experiences.

Mikakage wrote:

HR is harder for most players because they aren't used to play the circle size and AR10
I agree with this.

At a medium level of play, DT is just...playing a normal fast map. With less complicated patterns and it's somewhat harder to get good acc. Playing HR at that level is a world of difference due to several fundamental changes.

Mikakage wrote:

It is still hilarious that a single one hundred is worth 12 pp in this and 8 pp in Setting Sail. A 0.5 ms timing window difference = 4 pp difference in a longer map. Whatever... this just shows how much OD is broken.

Mikakage wrote:

Like Jesse said, many (including myself) aren't very satisfied with how accuracy is handled. The way it scales at higher ODs is just ridiculous to the point that getting a 98.5% score feels like crap when looking at something just 1% above, the difference is huge even when there is a mere 0.5 ms difference in the timing window.
I completely agree.

[
Acc PP is just too prone to be overrated overall, I think.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
acc should be a function of map complexity, not just of map length and od. too bad there dont seem to be any ways to do that.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that
E m i
E m i

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that
Except on long maps, ayy those 160pp marathon SSes
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
What combo is long?
E m i
E m i

Khelly wrote:

What combo is long?
Long to any degree, 2.5k to 9k obviously ;)
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined
Idk man I'm pretty sure most people get better acc on <200bpm streams than they do on mendes dt.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

jesus1412 wrote:

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined
Idk man I'm pretty sure most people get better acc on <200bpm streams than they do on mendes dt.
The second one is not specific enough about what type of 240+ bpm.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Keeping acc in <200 bpm streams is way harder than playing 240+ bpm wtf I'm ruined

I like how pp gains go up exponentially as you approach SS because it reflects how much harder it is to go from 98 to 99 than 95 to 98 etc. It is a lot easier to go from 20x100 to 10x100 than 10x to 5x, and I like how it reflects that
Yeah, it's harder, but it isn't enough to justify the difference for a mere 0.5 ms timing window. Seriously, this is adding 0.25 ms of lenience for hitting a note earlier/later, yet the pp value difference is a huge disparity.

Khelly wrote:

The second one is not specific enough about what type of 240+ bpm.
I said streams, if you are considering only 11 notes or so bursts as the entirety of streams in the game, that's cute. But even these are hard to play for most of the game population and I believe this majority will have more success at keeping a good accuracy at an easy to aim 170~180 bpm stream with HR than at an AR9.6~10.3 DT over 240 BPM.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
Actually, no, you said under 200 bpm stream and then 240+ in general which is encompassing everything; you should've said 240 bpm stream because you shofted the focus to playing dt in general.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Khelly wrote:

Actually, no, you said under 200 bpm stream and then 240+ in general which is encompassing everything; you should've said 240 bpm stream because you shofted the focus to playing dt in general.

Mikakage wrote:

In all these we are talking about simple maps, like most farm maps, that are relatively easy to play and don't actually have what makes both mods harder at the highest levels: streams. In DT it's high BPM streams and in HR is keeping accuracy on long streams. And keeping accuracy in a <200 BPM stream is much easier than playing 240+ BPM in general.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
The meaning of your sentence changed when you added "in general" even if the previous sentence was about streams.

You should have either left it out or said "240+ bpm streams in general" and I wouldn't have misinterpreted you.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
which bpm is easier to acc is too subjective
E m i
E m i

silmarilen wrote:

which bpm is easier to acc is too subjective
seems to be 170-210, really.

lowest ur 240+bpm play i have ever seen, yes three sliderbreaks.
DahakaMVl
6 posts
Joined June 2013
DahakaMVl
Still confused by the pp-System. Just played hard/advanced map. First try full combo, map rank #153 and acc 97.5% and lost 70 global ranks?
I lose rank all the time I play hard maps full combo and 96+ acc. Why is this happening. (I play almost daily)
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