It's good to see that Tom is aware of the situation, and i also would've thought that fixing those issues will totally mess up the other calculations

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do i need to say another word?

EZ have to be nerfed!!!

Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested

PakaChan wrote:

Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested

SPOILER

wow, thats really interesting, but how did you get the data of apperances?

Kingkevin30 wrote:

wow, thats really interesting, but how did you get the data of apperances?

Wrote some code,requested ~1500 pages from the site, put them in a database. (i hope i don't get in trouble for that)

PakaChan wrote:

Most common PP maps for top500 players, for anyone interested

SPOILER

So many pp farmers, so little pp maps.

PP maps are ctb maps. My top 10 pp are only ctb maps.

Because 10 billion hyperdashes in a 3 minute song aren't enough. Okay.

If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.

sad weeb wrote:

If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.

someone missed the the december update

PakaChan wrote:

sad weeb wrote:

If we stop the fact that HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without, you're gonna see half of the top 500 drop to under 1k. The whole HT / HTHR thing is pretty stupid and HT pp needs to be adjusted.

someone missed the the december update

as if you're implying HT still doesnt give a stupid amount of pp for scores

sad weeb wrote:

HT still gives literally almost the same amount of pp as doing the map without

Well this part is very inaccurate, but yes HT does still need another nerf, as does EZ mod, Tom will do it eventually, just be patient.

-Kurisu- wrote:

It isn't accurate at all IMO to put so much weight on ctb specific maps, especially since there are so few. There are plenty of standard maps that translate into fun and difficult ctb maps. Also the best performance shouldn't be filled with easy SS's...

wow one year later and look at where we still are

However they balance things people are always going to be upset about it ;3

In my opinion, there is something missing in the algorithm, something that could detect shitpatterns which do not contain any hyperdash, complex moves that requires alot of skill and accuracy.

I hope some players will understand my point of view about this.

Rockageek wrote:

In my opinion, there is something missing in the algorithm, something that could detect shitpatterns which do not contain any hyperdash, complex moves that requires alot of skill and accuracy.

for example

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=137840&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=45918&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/123708&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=66514&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/115384&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=344619&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=374400&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/289256&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=37658&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=255705&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=298880&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=153484&m=2

I hope some players will understand my point of view about this.

I love you.

but nooo repetitive patterns and hyperdash spam is what makes everything hard!

jumps are like dongers, the longer the better

...

Gunsillie wrote:

So, my question has probably already been answered, but here I go:
If I'm not mistaken, it was stated in the wiki that PP are calculated taking into account the popularity of the map. However, in CtB the player pool is way less big, so the algorithm that evaluates the popularity of the map needs to give way higher bonuses comparatively to std for the same number of plays.
Is it only a std thing, does it even still exist?

PP doesn't depend on map popularity anymore.

Seph wrote:

but nooo repetitive patterns and hyperdash spam is what makes everything hard!

jumps are like dongers, the longer the better

Plus 1/4 HDash spam fits every song!!!!!!11!!!!!!one!!!

Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...

big mistake that needs a big change D:

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

Was it ever meant that when you play a song with DT/NC only you get the full amount of pp and play it again using only HR and score higher and instantly lose all pp and ranks gained from it? Seems that HR has no benefits at all if it counts the same as no mods at all. Had a few songs like this from older maps and lost 40pp for playing it over again and getting a higher score and accuracy...

This shouldn't happen. In theory.

It won't be an issue when you get to keep your higher pp score when you get a higher score by using HR

Zak wrote:

It won't be an issue when you get to keep your higher pp score when you get a higher score by using HR

Umm that is what I'm talking about... It removed all points earned and pp received to 1% of base due to playing HR instead of my lower score on DT which scored 100% of possible pp earned. Here is a picture of what I mean... only hopes now is to play it dt/hr which is pretty hard with cs 6.5

http://puu.sh/i7lu5/d9c3060d5f.jpg

Yes but eventually you will get to have 2 separate scores per map, one for highest pp and another for your best score.

Zak wrote:

Yes but eventually you will get to have 2 separate scores per map, one for highest pp and another for your best score.

Oh ok, so like 2 seperate ranking systems. Makes more sence since some maps are more difficult with mods that award less points for score.

Why not get rid of score ranking ?

Drafura wrote:

Why not get rid of score ranking ?

Kind of the purpose anyone plays. Without goals or motivation people would no longer come back to play. Not sure if Peppy would be happen with a large loss of players.

Drafura wrote:

Why not get rid of score ranking ?

And replace it with what? This joke pp system?

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=17908&m=2 Please nerf the pp this map gives in DT. It isn't even hard and it gives way too much pp. The Expert is overrated as well, but at least it is tricky in spots.

TheVileOne wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=17908&m=2 Please nerf the pp this map gives in DT. It isn't even hard and it gives way too much pp. The Expert is overrated as well, but at least it is tricky in spots.

Lol that song is from 2008 and surprisingly the scores from it reflects that almost no one plays it anymore if you can reach near the top on first attempt so I don't think it even matters. Then again if they used the old pp system it might even bring back all the people that retired shortly after like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=17908&m=2 Please nerf the pp this map gives in DT. It isn't even hard and it gives way too much pp. The Expert is overrated as well, but at least it is tricky in spots.

Lol that song is from 2008 and surprisingly the scores from it reflects that almost no one plays it anymore if you can reach near the top on first attempt so I don't think it even matters. Then again if they used the old pp system it might even bring back all the people that retired shortly after like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.

There's over 50 people with DT scores on that map. They are just off the leaderboard because HR is easier has a higher multiplier and probably worth much less pp.

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.

Omg, she lost a fake number showing her "skill", what can she do without her precious go berzerk top rank??

PakaChan wrote:

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

like my friend okami--chan which quit for that reason after pretty much losing everything she worked for a few years.

Omg, she lost a fake number showing her "skill", what can she do without her precious go berzerk top rank??

Was actually near 70% of all scores reset to zero pp which dropped a large number of ctb players off from playing.

If the effect was really that bad, then obviously she was farming a ton of maps and should have known it was going to happen. I knew I was going to take a large hit and I lost over 700 ranks when pp algorithms changed. I've been slowly working back towards my old rank.

TheVileOne wrote:

If the effect was really that bad, then obviously she was farming a ton of maps and should have known it was going to happen. I knew I was going to take a large hit and I lost over 700 ranks when pp algorithms changed. I've been slowly working back towards my old rank.

Lol I lost nearly 7000 ranks and about 3k pp but moving back up fast since most of the competition retired.

Anyone who wants to quit over losing their pp rank obviously doesn't play for the right reasons, the only thing going on in this thread lately is people bringing up the same issues again and again, Tom is already well aware, and when he comes back to tweak pp again, he'll do so, but until then people should stop getting so upset over a number that still doesn't do a very good job of accurately representing skill and bring up issues about the current system that haven't already been discussed. Also nowhere near "most" of the competition retired, that's far from the truth.

Zak wrote:

Anyone who wants to quit over losing their pp rank obviously doesn't play for the right reasons, the only thing going on in this thread lately is people bringing up the same issues again and again, Tom is already well aware, and when he comes back to tweak pp again, he'll do so, but until then people should stop getting so upset over a number that still doesn't do a very good job of accurately representing skill and bring up issues about the current system that haven't already been discussed. Also nowhere near "most" of the competition retired, that's far from the truth.

Actually if you was listening in on #osu channel that day you would of noticed the war that broke out and the countless number that haven't logged in since that event a bit over 6 months. Besides pp and ranking is what keeps me playing and supporting.

Please provide actual reasoning as to why we should go back to the old flawed way of calculating pp. Give something that validates adding value to those maps that got pp and difficulty reductions. People leaving is not a valid reason as these people knew what they were playing were overvalued and the only reason they played those maps is that they gave a lot of pp.

Make an argument about what is a fair pp amount for maps that got nerfed.

(I had a 243 pp play in my top list and it gave me ~200 ranks alone.)

If pp is your sole reason for playing then why not play a game where rank actually gets you somewhere, I'm not trying to be rude about this but being good at catching fruit won't win you money or anything, so playing for pp alone and not being to simply enjoy the game is pointless, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be competitive, but there are tournaments and multiplayer lobbies if you really care about showing how good you are.

Zak wrote:

If pp is your sole reason for playing then why not play a game where rank actually gets you somewhere, I'm not trying to be rude about this but being good at catching fruit won't win you money or anything, so playing for pp alone and not being to simply enjoy the game is pointless, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be competitive, but there are tournaments and multiplayer lobbies if you really care about showing how good you are.

Simple lets remove pp for all modes for a while and you will have your answer. It's a lot more than what you think. Showing off isn't what it's about, that is what the world cup is for. Just seems that all the people trying to be like you will never get to see what it's like on top if there is no system in place. You wouldn't care because your already there andhave had your fill of it. Besides the current system is fine as long it just keep going down hill.

No

Ibuki Mioda wrote:

Zak wrote:

If pp is your sole reason for playing then why not play a game where rank actually gets you somewhere, I'm not trying to be rude about this but being good at catching fruit won't win you money or anything, so playing for pp alone and not being to simply enjoy the game is pointless, I'm not saying you're not allowed to be competitive, but there are tournaments and multiplayer lobbies if you really care about showing how good you are.

Simple lets remove pp for all modes for a while and you will have your answer. It's a lot more than what you think. Showing off isn't what it's about, that is what the world cup is for. Just seems that all the people trying to be like you will never get to see what it's like on top if there is no system in place. You wouldn't care because your already there andhave had your fill of it. Besides the current system is fine as long it just keep going down hill.

what are you on.

My problem with pp is people taking it too seriously and investing their time in that alone, if anything that takes the fun out of this game as you're no longer playing maps that you find challenging and fun, you'll simply be looking at the number they give and playing it regardless of how you feel about the map, honestly from what I can tell pp works well in Taiko and Standard for the most part, so it makes more sense to focus on pp there to an extent but for pp to be your one and only reason to play ctb is sort of dumb when the system is broken, and even more dumb when the same people are going to come back when things are finally updated and cry yet again about how they lost their "well deserved rank".

Once again to be absolutely clear, it's okay to go for pp but to put 100% of all your effort into a system that is very obviously flawed and say there's no other way to enjoy the game is just stupid.

Zak wrote:

My problem with pp is people taking it too seriously and investing their time in that alone, if anything that takes the fun out of this game as you're no longer playing maps that you find challenging and fun, you'll simply be looking at the number they give and playing it regardless of how you feel about the map, honestly from what I can tell pp works well in Taiko and Standard for the most part, so it makes more sense to focus on pp there to an extent but for pp to be your one and only reason to play ctb is sort of dumb when the system is broken, and even more dumb when the same people are going to come back when things are finally updated and cry yet again about how they lost their "well deserved rank".

Once again to be absolutely clear, it's okay to go for pp but to put 100% of all your effort into a system that is very obviously flawed and say there's no other way to enjoy the game is just stupid.

Then why bother fixing it if it hasn't been correct in years. Should just let it be as it has and gone on living. What is fun for some might not be fun in the eyes of another.

Lets just revert to ppv1 then and leave it as is and never update it, that should make everyone happy

eargh this pointless argument is making me sick, you are talking around a pointless value and how you feel about it instead of just going to the Core
Topic....If you didn't find out in the decade you've been playing video games...there are some Core Aspect how people can enjoy playing a video game

and since I'm a lazy slob, i won't phrase what i want to say myself, I'm just gonna throw some quotes from an Psychological Study called
"A Motivational Model of Video Game Engagement"


so pls be quiet now...OK ?

Just let People Enjoy what they do the way they like it

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eargh this pointless argument is making me sick, you are talking around a pointless value and how you feel about it instead of just going to the Core
Topic....If you didn't find out in the decade you've been playing video games...there are some Core Aspect how people can enjoy playing a video game

and since I'm a lazy slob, i won't phrase what i want to say myself, I'm just gonna throw some quotes from an Psychological Study called
"A Motivational Model of Video Game Engagement"

Da Text-Wall

Video games motivate a remarkable amount of goal-directed
behavior.
...
the appeal of video games lies
in the inherent properties of the experiences they provide
...
behaviors pursued for their own sake or their inherent satisfaction are
identified as intrinsically motivated, whereas those pursued to
access desired end states or avoid aversive ones are understood as
extrinsically motivated
...
For more than 3 decades, one subtheory of SDT,
cognitive evaluation theory (CET), has guided research on
intrinsic motivation in sports, education, and leisure domains. For
example, Ryan and Deci (2007) recently reviewed a substantial
body of research on sport and exercise in which CET explained
interest and sustained participation in these activities. In another
recent example, Sheldon and Filak (2008) experimentally manip-
ulated autonomy, competence, and relatedness support in a non-
digital game-based learning context, showing that each of these
basic needs independently predicted motivation for a game activ-
ity.
...
This extensive body of research based on CET thus shows that
SPECIFIC PSYCHOLOGICAL NOURISHMENTS PRESENT in activities are nec-
essary for activities to be experienced as inherently enjoyable or
fun
,

so pls be quiet now...OK ?

Just let People Enjoy what they do the way they like it

Lol close enough, pretty much was what I was getting at. Take a cat for example, they like boxes but they don't have a purpose to a human since they don't quiet understand just why they like them. Same with me and many others we like things that don't really matter to some but without them it makes it feel no longer interested at all. Have played some games that the mini games were more fun than the actual game.

What are u talking about ? the pp system need a new developer who is Pro at CtB so he can argue every suggestion/refuse by testing ... ( i think tom is doing what he can do atm, if u wanna play for fun just play what u like if u wanna play to improve ur skill play what u can't/hard to play no matter what pp will afford )

I create new thread with the idea: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/340014

But i put here too:

First of all I have to say this is written with google translator, sorry for bad English.

The idea is put a system pp like the one osu!mania, it is odious that you have only one fault no longer obtain pp, then I propose to put a maximum of 1 million score in all songs of Catch the Beat mode, and mods they can not climb score but if they can raise more pp if you have nice score with mod (hard rock, hidden...)

And in the ranking can be overcome people using mods, per example:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (He has not used any mod)

or also it:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock, Hidden)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
3-Spectator 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
4-CLSW 1.000.000 score (Hidden)

Depending on the difficulty of the mod positions up

And for get 1.000.000 score you need 100% accuracy (obviously)

-iNSaNiX- wrote:

I create new thread with the idea: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/340014

But i put here too:

First of all I have to say this is written with google translator, sorry for bad English.

The idea is put a system pp like the one osu!mania, it is odious that you have only one fault no longer obtain pp, then I propose to put a maximum of 1 million score in all songs of Catch the Beat mode, and mods they can not climb score but if they can raise more pp if you have nice score with mod (hard rock, hidden...)

And in the ranking can be overcome people using mods, per example:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (He has not used any mod)

or also it:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock, Hidden)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
3-Spectator 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
4-CLSW 1.000.000 score (Hidden)

Depending on the difficulty of the mod positions up

And for get 1.000.000 score you need 100% accuracy (obviously)

So nomod SS > 1x droplet miss HDDTHRFL ?
The way score works is realy unlikely to change now, it's been said in multiple post.

-iNSaNiX- wrote:

I create new thread with the idea: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/340014

But i put here too:

First of all I have to say this is written with google translator, sorry for bad English.

The idea is put a system pp like the one osu!mania, it is odious that you have only one fault no longer obtain pp, then I propose to put a maximum of 1 million score in all songs of Catch the Beat mode, and mods they can not climb score but if they can raise more pp if you have nice score with mod (hard rock, hidden...)

And in the ranking can be overcome people using mods, per example:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (He has not used any mod)

or also it:

1-ExGon 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock, Hidden)
2-Dusk 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
3-Spectator 1.000.000 score (Hard Rock)
4-CLSW 1.000.000 score (Hidden)

Depending on the difficulty of the mod positions up

And for get 1.000.000 score you need 100% accuracy (obviously)

This idea would kill bananas.

Speaking of bananas, I know this isn't the right place, but still I want to ask this random question. Why isn't the banana count shown in the score screen after a game? It shows fruits caught, droplets caught, big combo-giving droplets caught, fruits missed, but doesn't show bananas caught. Weird, if you ask me.

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Speaking of bananas, I know this isn't the right place, but still I want to ask this random question. Why isn't the banana count shown in the score screen after a game? It shows fruits caught, droplets caught, big combo-giving droplets caught, fruits missed, but doesn't show bananas caught. Weird, if you ask me.

the bananas are actually spinners so they just function as bonus points, the full amount of possible seems to be only done by auto.

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Speaking of bananas, I know this isn't the right place, but still I want to ask this random question. Why isn't the banana count shown in the score screen after a game? It shows fruits caught, droplets caught, big combo-giving droplets caught, fruits missed, but doesn't show bananas caught. Weird, if you ask me.

Since you didn't get a reply to the actual question, it should be implemented someday, as I'm sure osu! can easily calculate the amount you caught correctly (even though replays are sometimes a bit off showing you catching more). There is a feature request thread for it as well with lots of support, so I'd say just keep waiting and it should finally happen eventually.

ppv2 rip farmers, ppv3 soon

[Hakurei-Miko] wrote:

ppv2 rip farmers, ppv3 soon

Says who?

Welcome to the pp Fields

ppv3 ayy lmao
maybe in 2 or 3 years xD

lineqtxz wrote:

ppv3 ayy lmao
maybe in 2 or 3 years xD

I'm already calling the system we have right now ppv3, since the "Fix" ppv2 had made it pretty much gave it a whole new valuation

I have a way of enjoying the game even if I don't play it anymore myself.

Watch Zak suffer with 1 miss plays.

how is this ppv2? ppv1 = sey's platter.. maware etc ppv2 go berzerk land ppv3 today

CLSW wrote:

It would be impossible to remove pp ranking system on ctb
Guys, think it to better way, don't give up. We still don't know if new system will beloved?

I agree...
Play for fun every maps and don't give up ....
Enjoy!

Fun > pps.
Pps are just a number, fun is a sentiment.
Why people prefer a number as a sentiment ?

(If you say : why you say that, you're a farmer, you've 5000SS+ --> I like farm, so I have fun when I play. ^w^)

And I'm #730 now, but my skill is for a #900 guy. I can't play mods and better as people around my rank, so the pps system is good, but it doesn't show the real skill of the player.
I'm sure, a #150 can be better as a #80, and there +700pp of difference of actual #80 and #150. x)

Someone's ego is stronger than its not-working brain.

Please make ctb specific maps give 0pp ty

Why not just make everything give 0pp except for Bill Nye The Science Guy

Zak wrote:

Why not just make everything give 0pp except for Bill Nye The Science Guy

No need to remove pp, some people find it fun to see their pp get higher. If you don't then you don't have to pay any attention to it.

PakaChan wrote:

Please make ctb specific maps give 0pp ty

I think that's a bit of an overkill, they should just nerf the slider stream pp (void feat. Komatsuna - Akatsuki no Tsuki). Some CTB specific maps give quite fair amount of pp, imo LeaF - Calamity Fortune, Warak - Reanimate, CLIFF EDGE - Endless Tears ft. Nakamura Maiko and Mutsuhiko Izumi - Snow Goose are quite good.

-PM- wrote:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FL ....!!! WOW

difficulty reduction...

malo culiao

PakaChan wrote:

Please make ctb specific maps give 0pp ty

I follow this way of thinking, imo the actual pp system is so wrong and new ctb maps are abusing of it.
TAG4 diffs doesn't give enough pp for example :')

Seriously, it's not because there is alot of hyperdashes that the map is hard.
Full HDash map -> over 5 stars
NoHdash map full of technical shitpatterns -> under 4 stars (I wanna say less than 3.5 but there is exceptions).

Of course the second map is way harder and gives way less, even if you SS FL or HD HR etc...

Tom94 maybe doesn't care at all.
He should create a poll or ask alot of pro players about all of this to correctly scale a new pp system for ctb that would be much less broken than this one.

Id wager its the same issue as with standard, the difficulty system does not account for patterns, only how far the notes are apart from each other, both in time and placement.

ShyeartFanGirl wrote:

Tom94 maybe doesn't care at all.

It's not that he doesn't care, he's busy and CtB is pretty much low priority for him (I think, compared to other gamemodes) since technically we have a better star system than taiko and o!m

PPV2 is s**t .I agree that PPV3 is much better than PPV2,but it disleads new CTB players .

Why do I say this word? We should change a view to look out this mode. CTB hard maps are based on insane patterns rather than jump jump without any skills. If you want to make a really CTB map, you can use jumps but jumps should be solved irregularly(such as Highscore Rainbow dash Arousing[ HW's Extra] and etc )

I highlight a word :JUMP. Yeah , many big-distance jumps look really cool and they are considered as very hard parts for new ctb players,especially red fruits in 2015 CTB maps.New CTB players insist that CTB maps need very very high skills because they can't catch red fruits at the beginning( including us )an the PP system prefers to new CTB maps . that is a wrong way to lead a new CTB player to join us. New CTB maps are good for new players to quickly improve thier skills , but they(New CTB maps) should not be attracted too much.

FL mod should be rewarded more pp. HD for high stars maps should be increased PP a little rather than decrease. Std maps should be improved stars and they are really hard. I don't think a 388PP ctb map is harder than Math Class [TAG4].

Finally, stars system of some maps with only 1-2 hard parts shoul be fixed(such as End Time [fear] and etc).

Overall,the correct difficulty is based on patterns.

Hamburgers are really delicious without any nutrition , a glass of water is not tasty but healthy.

Do you agree me?

serenity_P wrote:

PPV2 is s**t .I agree that PPV3 is much better than PPV2,but it disleads new CTB players .

Why do I say this word? We should change a view to look out this mode. CTB hard maps are based on insane patterns rather than jump jump without any skills. If you want to make a really CTB map, you can use jumps but jumps should be solved irregularly(such as Highscore Rainbow dash Arousing[ HW's Extra] and etc )

I highlight a word :JUMP. Yeah , many big-distance jumps look really cool and they are considered as very hard parts for new ctb players,especially red fruits in 2015 CTB maps.New CTB players insist that CTB maps need very very high skills because they can't catch red fruits at the beginning( including us )an the PP system prefers to new CTB maps . that is a wrong way to lead a new CTB player to join us. New CTB maps are good for new players to quickly improve thier skills , but they(New CTB maps) should not be attracted too much.

FL mod should be rewarded more pp. HD for high stars maps should be increased PP a little rather than decrease. Std maps should be improved stars and they are really hard. I don't think a 388PP ctb map is harder than Math Class [TAG4].

Finally, stars system of some maps with only 1-2 hard parts shoul be fixed(such as End Time [fear] and etc).

Overall,the correct difficulty is based on patterns.

Hamburgers are really delicious without any nutrition , a glass of water is not tasty but healthy.

Do you agree me?

Partially. But tentatively as a ctb mapper/modder I can tell you that jumps as you said "irregularly" are still experimental, and ctb stream mapping is also so hard to be creative that only one or two ctb mappers can handle this. It's easy to SAY, but it's hard to DO.

Remember, everyone has his own way to enjoy this game. Some enjoy jumps, while some enjoy patherns like you; some enjoy pp, while some don't. While I was a beginner I did enjoy hyperdashes which I thought were cool, and I tried my best to do well in them. Anyways you need to respect to the diversity.

Also, whether you love pp or hate, it's always that you care pp. I suggest you don't always judge a ctb specific map according to pp, since in this way you are likely to ignore what painstaking care the mapper pay in the map. In this point of view I can't agree more with Spectator (see his ask http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128855444064 and http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128938149472). In addition, sooner or later the pp arithmetic system will changed, but the quality of a map will still remain.

First of all I would like to thank Tom for putting in effort to make a change to the CTB pp system to begin with even though there are rooms for major improvement.

Here's how I dissect the problem with pp: (Umineko style :3)

Red statement: Core conclusion
Blue statement: Sub conclusion
Gold statement: Final conclusion

1. A good pp system is where the system credits map purely dependent on difficulty, and scale the rewards in pp proportionately. In other words, a more difficult map should always get more pp than an easier map no matter what, and ideally if Map A is twice as hard as Map B it shall reward twice as much of pp, or whichever proportion that is most fit be it purely multiple or logarithmic or exponential. I don't think anyone disagrees on this point.
Conclusion (1): Harder map = more pp

2. CTB is absolutely timing based just like Taiko and Mania. Unlike say Osu!Standard, where clicking on time (rhythm ---> time accuracy) and clicking at the right place (aim ---> spacial/positional accuracy) are two separate parameters. Having either variable heavily compromised will result in a miss no matter how good the other variable is being mastered. E.g. a perfectly timed click at a completely wrong place will always be a miss, a perfectly positioned click at a completely wrong timing will always be a miss as well. However for CTB, if one pressed the keys perfectly in time, one will never miss no matter what. That's because the platter moves at a fixed speed, and all combos unreachable with that speed will be caught with a hyperdash. Therefore the only parameter that affects CTB gameplay is the timing where the keys are being pressed (and held on to).
Conclusion (2): Timing = Everything in CTB

3. Since timing is the only affecting factor for CTB, then the more stringent the timing window the more difficult the map is to FC, therefore, is harder and deserves more pp.
Conclusion (3): Less forgiving timing window = More difficult = More pp

Mapping factors that affects timing/difficulty:

4. An AR too high requires great reaction speed, therefore can cause delay in a player's timing in pressing the keys correctly.
Conclusion (4): Extremely high AR deserves more pp.

5. An AR too low confuses the player as the platter becomes "slippery" (moves way too fast as compared to the dropping fruits), the fruits are harder to read and timings are harder to judge.
Conclusion (5): Extremely low AR deserves more pp.

6. High HP drains doesn't affect the key-press timing at all, but it multiplies the consequences of not being able to keep in time, which is to entirely fail the map.
Conclusion (6): Higher HP deserves more pp.

7. High CS makes the fruit hit-circle smaller, thus there is less room for mistake in terms of the position of the platter, since position of the platter is absolutely controlled by the timings of the keys pressed, the higher the CS the smaller the error in key-press timing there can be. Therefore a very high CS is very difficult.
Conclusion (7): Higher CS deserves more pp.

8. OD in all other modes: E.g. AT OD10 if you hit the object more/less than 15ms in timing you miss, that applies for every combo. For OD9 may be 20ms.
OD in CTB: Pattern A requires player to just move left by 3 platter length and you are given 5 seconds to do so. And then 3 more seconds to move right 1 platter length away. Easy. Pattern B requires player to move left right left right consecutively 20 times with 10ms of error window for each combo. Hard. Other modes use Meter OD, which is a fixed timing window exactly the same for every combo, that is invariable. CTB uses Pattern OD, which is dependent on how much room for timing error to successfully get from one combo to another, which varies with different combos. Meter OD has no effect on difficult, while Pattern OD affects difficulty. The harder the pattern, the less forgiving the timing, the more difficult the map becomes.
Conclusion (8): Harder pattern = less room for timing error.
Conclusion (9): Harder pattern deserves more pp.

9. Longer maps require a player to consistently hit the timing window despite the long duration, it requires more timing accuracy as compared to if the map was shorted. Thus more difficult.
Conclusion (10): Longer maps deserve more pp.

Clearly from the explanation above you can see which factor affects the gameplay difficulty the most, at I will list it as my final conclusion.
Conclusion (11): Arranged in order of greater pp emphasis: Pattern OD > CS > AR (high/low) > HP > Meter OD = 0

Of course there are a lot more questions left unanswered by my conclusions.
1. What is consider too high/too low AR?
2. Is AR difficulty more subjective or objective?
3. Which are the patterns that are less forgiving?
4. Since every combo has different timing error window, how does one accurately account for the overall difficulty of a map containing thousands of combos?
5. I find low CS as hard to read as high CS, is that not a valid point?
6. What is the easiest CS/AR to benchmark on?
7. How does modifiers (mods) affect the above mentioned parameters?
8. How does spinners and droplets play a part in the pp system?
9. So many things to change so much work to be done, is that even possible?
10. Is it worth the effort to strive for a perfect pp system?
11. Is difficulty overall a subjective matter of pure human experience, or is it simply a matter of neurology mathematics and physics, or maybe both?
12. Should we scale elements that are or potentially could be subjective as objective pp?
13. WTF were you talking about the whole time, were you smoking weed?
And many more questions. Which I hope we can discuss in an mature and constructive manner in the future.

Not really agree that a high HP would award more pp.

If the player can full combo the map, the HP is not useful, and so he/she can still get the same amount of pp. So making HP as a measurement of pp amount, won't affect the system basically, maybe it is just more tolerable to the new players.

I agree for all you said, except for one point :

He Ang Erika wrote:

5. An AR too low confuses the player as the platter becomes "slippery" (moves way too fast as compared to the dropping fruits), the fruits are harder to read and timings are harder to judge.

I disagree with that, it's maybe hard for some players to read low AR (for me, low AR is under 6) but that's the same with players who can't play with high AR, (above 9.5) it's hard for them.
I think, with the AR you want, if you know the song, you can clear it.
I know, EZ and HT mods are never used because it earn not a lot of pps, but (it's MY opinion) it's normal : it's low, so we are able to play it more easily as high AR, or we can see where the fruit will fall, unlike with high AR.
I know some people who can play "easily" with an AR under 6 (for exemple, I can play with AR0/AR1) so I don't think it's a problem.
And imagine, a lot of players plays Renard - Banned Forever [Nogard] with EZFL mod, and they earn (if SS) 305pp. 305pp with EZ mod, imagine if it earn more pps ? +400pp for an easy song with EZ mod ? That's unfair.
Same for beatMARIO - Night of Knights [TAG4] with EZFL mod, they earn 311pp for that. 311pp with EZ mod, I think it's a lot, even if the map is a little bit hard, above 300pp with EZ mod is too much.
(thanks to Emiru for the pps scores, haha)

EZ mod is maybe hard in Osu!Standard mode, but in Osu!CatchTheBeat, it's "pretty" easy. I don't think it need an upgrade.

And for the end, I answer to yours questions, quickly :

He Ang Erika wrote:

1. What is consider too high/too low AR? I think low = under 6, and high = above 9.5.
2. Is AR difficulty more subjective or objective? Subjecive.
3. Which are the patterns that are less forgiving? CLSW and Spectator patterns, they're pretty easy. (but all are really good map, enjoy them !)
4. Since every combo has different timing error window, how does one accurately account for the overall difficulty of a map containing thousands of combos? I don't understand your question.. xD
5. I find low CS as hard to read as high CS, is that not a valid point? Low CS is pretty easy, above CS6 it's hard I think.
6. What is the easiest CS/AR to benchmark on? AR8/9 and CS3/4.
7. How does modifiers (mods) affect the above mentioned parameters? If low AR, HD give more.
8. How does spinners and droplets play a part in the pp system? I don't think it's good, in Osu!Standard, it give not more pps if you spin faster as an other player.
9. So many things to change so much work to be done, is that even possible? Maybe ?
10. Is it worth the effort to strive for a perfect pp system? It will be great, like that real good player will go to the top 100 easily, and not the pp farmer.
11. Is difficulty overall a subjective matter of pure human experience, or is it simply a matter of neurology mathematics and physics, or maybe both? Pure human experience I think.
12. Should we scale elements that are or potentially could be subjective as objective pp? Yes.
13. WTF were you talking about the whole time, were you smoking weed? Yes. 8)
And many more questions. Which I hope we can discuss in an mature and constructive manner in the future.

rrtyui wrote:

plz enjoy game

Thanks AFB & Axiaan for the constructive feedback XD

@AFB I think as for HP it deters people from playing certain map D: For example I won't play Big Black because I know I will fail badly, but if it has super low HP I would probably have made an record on it D: Also I can think of it this way: If a song only allow maximum of 1 miss to pass, it has a lot more timing accuracy required as compared to a song that can tolerate 20 misses in a row. Therefore the benchmark on timing is higher, therefore more difficult and thus deserve more pp (slightly). It's like a test that initially can pass by getting 50/100 marks, now the requirement is to get 95/100 to pass, the test is certainly tougher even though nothing about the questions themselves changed a single bit, but those who can pass the second test requirement should ultimately be credited more than those who can pass the first test requirement, that's how I saw it. Of course if you can get 100/100 the passing mark means nothing, but having high benchmark sure filtered out many people who are just not up to standard yet. Still I agree that HP should play the least importance in pp calculation as stated by you :3

@Axiaan Well EZ is actually VERY difficult for me D: In fact more than half of the time I can clock more score on AR10 than AR5 doubled OTL For the given example of Banned Forever I can get 700+ combos on it till the cancer part but can't even pass 100+ combo on EZ DT *dies* But I recognise your point that low AR might not be as difficult as high AR in many scenarios as well. Like when I just began as a new CTB players I could do AR5 HD like I'm the king of low AR, but those were nothing compared to things like Airman. I guess I just grew out of it and have gotten used to much faster ARs :C I guess it's just up to the individuals then D:

Also I added the point on my original post about long maps and why longer maps deserve more pp C:

He Ang Erika wrote:

8. OD in all other modes: E.g. AT OD10 if you hit the object more/less than 15ms in timing you miss, that applies for every combo. For OD9 may be 20ms.
OD in CTB: Pattern A requires player to just move left by 3 platter length and you are given 5 seconds to do so. And then 3 more seconds to move right 1 platter length away. Easy. Pattern B requires player to move left right left right consecutively 20 times with 10ms of error window for each combo. Hard. Other modes use Meter OD, which is a fixed timing window exactly the same for every combo, that is invariable. CTB uses Pattern OD, which is dependent on how much room for timing error to successfully get from one combo to another, which varies with different combos. Meter OD has no effect on difficult, while Pattern OD affects difficulty. The harder the pattern, the less forgiving the timing, the more difficult the map becomes.
Conclusion (8): Harder pattern = less room for timing error.
Conclusion (9): Harder pattern deserves more pp.

I don't think it would work like that, rapid direction changes which is mostly what gives pp in this system: hypers are what need the most movement in the least amount of time.

Rather than a hyper nerf or buff, i propose a non-hyper buff, a non-hyper jump seems to be harder the closer it is to being a hyper but once it's a hyper it's easy. Bonus points if you just come out of a hyper before this. Exgon agrees (kinda): http://ask.fm/ExGon/answer/121910772785

Aside from that, i see a lot of people saying that EZ should be nerfed but really, the only map that seems like an issue is banned forever which isn't exactly an EZ-issue but rather the algorithm thinking the hell-ish pattern can't be done without standing still. Fix that part of the algorithm and ez will be fair. EZDT on high cs already gives less pp than nomod, as for low cs, i think ezdt is harder.

Of course there are a lot more questions left unanswered by my conclusions.
1. What is consider too high/too low AR?
2. Is AR difficulty more subjective or objective?
3. Which are the patterns that are less forgiving?
4. Since every combo has different timing error window, how does one accurately account for the overall difficulty of a map containing thousands of combos?
5. I find low CS as hard to read as high CS, is that not a valid point?
6. What is the easiest CS/AR to benchmark on?
7. How does modifiers (mods) affect the above mentioned parameters?
8. How does spinners and droplets play a part in the pp system?
9. So many things to change so much work to be done, is that even possible?
10. Is it worth the effort to strive for a perfect pp system?
11. Is difficulty overall a subjective matter of pure human experience, or is it simply a matter of neurology mathematics and physics, or maybe both?
12. Should we scale elements that are or potentially could be subjective as objective pp?
13. WTF were you talking about the whole time, were you smoking weed?

1. I don't think there's a too low or too high AR. I think it all depends on the object density of the map (especially for lower ones). AR9 may be good for ~200bpm, AR10 FOR 300bpm.
2. Subjective. Everyone will find AR they aren't comfortable hard.
3. Emphasis on "patterns". Pattern detection is a huge problem in standard and it will be. Tom attempted to detect neu-like patterns which made stuff like banned forever EZ rated so highly. There's a ton of patterns that you'd have to detect but i guess the most common ones are stairs.
6. Depends on the map.
7. Right now, for HR: the algorithm simply recalculates the entire map as if it's a new difficulty. HD bonus seems fine, maybe needs a buff for high cs. Not sure how DT works or how it's supposed to work.
8. Spinners do not and should not affect pp. Droplets only seem to be a real issue on shorter maps. The thing about making droplets worth a lot is the fact that you could SS a map you have 97% acc on but not outspin yourself which can be frustrating
9.One at a time.

I think the HD bonus should decrease slower while going higher than AR9, at AR9 the bonus is around 12% and then once it's at AR10 it's only 5% which is way too low, a lot of people can use the argument that HD is easier to read at that AR but it doesn't mean the map itself becomes easier to play, it will still be harder and deserves a bit more of an increase in pp, I'd say maybe 8~9%, 5% is practically non-existant.

I'm so bad with hd i should have +50% pp bonus.

Can we keep the discussion serious please.

Agree with Paka on non-hyper hard jumps. These are really underrated.

As what Paka said, a normal dash which is just on a borderline from being a hyperdash is very hard and requires a sharp reaction time.

Mostly from converts like Hollow Wings' Sentimental Skyscraper and Alumetorz's furioso melodia which had alot of that type of dashes, which is very underrated.

Yeah, there should probably be some specific values set onto them, to where most average jumps still won't give much but near pixel jumps will, especially consecutive ones or back and forth jumps with hypers and normal jumps mixed together, those get particularly nasty.

Axiaan wrote:

He Ang Erika wrote:

5. An AR too low confuses the player as the platter becomes "slippery" (moves way too fast as compared to the dropping fruits), the fruits are harder to read and timings are harder to judge.

I disagree with that, it's maybe hard for some players to read low AR (for me, low AR is under 6) but that's the same with players who can't play with high AR, (above 9.5) it's hard for them.

I agree with He Ang Erika, for high ar it's a different thing. It's more about time reaction and guessing pattern/be familiar with them, that's my feeling. For low ar with high bpm it's really difficult to judge timing between fruits by reading.


Pixel jump was nerfed a little but they are missed in diff algo. There is 3 thing about them.
Most of the time you need to know when they start.
Higher BPM, harder to maintain accuracy to catch them. (banned forever)
Hdash before pixel jump, faster hdash, shorter timing to catch correctly. (rainbow dash)

For diff calculation i think a possible way is to see difficulty of pattern 3 by 3 fruits and find a way to have a global diff.

Equim wrote:

Partially. But tentatively as a ctb mapper/modder I can tell you that jumps as you said "irregularly" are still experimental, and ctb stream mapping is also so hard to be creative that only one or two ctb mappers can handle this. It's easy to SAY, but it's hard to DO.
Remember, everyone has his own way to enjoy this game. Some enjoy jumps, while some enjoy patherns like you; some enjoy pp, while some don't. While I was a beginner I did enjoy hyperdashes which I thought were cool, and I tried my best to do well in them. Anyways you need to respect to the diversity.
Also, whether you love pp or hate, it's always that you care pp. I suggest you don't always judge a ctb specific map according to pp, since in this way you are likely to ignore what painstaking care the mapper pay in the map. In this point of view I can't agree more with Spectator (see his ask http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128855444064 and http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128938149472). In addition, sooner or later the pp arithmetic system will changed, but the quality of a map will still remain.

I respect all mappers,spec's ctb maps can lead new players to join us quickly.His maps should be respected,but I just wanna new PP system decreases this type of ctb maps a little to guide new players correctly.CTB maps can be made into different kinds.Some maps contains so many red
fruits,some maps contains hard patterns and you needs high APM.

Overall,I sincerely bless all CTB mappers to show your own style,don't be shy!

Now PP system has something unfair,I just point it .

How did you find where I show anything rude to any mappers?

Mappers need to hurt their brains to share their ideas , just the new system needs to judge their maps more correctly.

That is what I expect. I love this game and I wanna this game more perfectly.

You know ,the official rules can control your mind ,we need to fix the pp system and make the game filled with charm !

I am weak at Ctb but ! I am not a coward ! I can reply to you : I don't care about PP ! because I just wanna be a HD DT pro player, why should I care about PP ? Challenges are enough to me!

I say again : I love this game deeply and wanna her more perfectly.

We are members of this warm family,shouldn't we love her and take care of her ?

Random speech, but I have to agree with you. Also, any (un)ranked map is good as long as at least one player enjoys the map.

hey there, is this still alive?

yea, but there is just not much to add anymore, since we almost mentioned every problem...
plus Tom is focusing on University as far as i know, so he won't have the time to do anything about it

Mr pepsi did say last year he had a group of people looking into the pp system as a whole. I guess it's still too early in the year to go asking for in-depth updates about it.

I think spins should reward 0% to 5%pp dependent on how close to max spin. High accuracies should also reward 0 to 5%pp dependent on how close to 100% Accuracy.

It doesn't have to cap at 5% though, just a arbitrary number D:

He Ang Erika wrote:

I think spins should reward 0% to 5%pp dependent on how close to max spin. High accuracies should also reward 0 to 5%pp dependent on how close to 100% Accuracy.

It doesn't have to cap at 5% though, just a arbitrary number D:

Gonna have to disagree about spins giving pp due to the fact that I'm sure it's really hard for the game to determine how good your spin actually is and I doubt it can calculate what the best humanly possible spin is.

Accuracy already gives bonus pp.

Zak wrote:

He Ang Erika wrote:

I think spins should reward 0% to 5%pp dependent on how close to max spin. High accuracies should also reward 0 to 5%pp dependent on how close to 100% Accuracy.

It doesn't have to cap at 5% though, just a arbitrary number D:

Gonna have to disagree about spins giving pp due to the fact that I'm sure it's really hard for the game to determine how good your spin actually is and I doubt it can calculate what the best humanly possible spin is.

Accuracy already gives bonus pp.

I'm not sure about how the current system can account for spinners, but mathematically it's very easy to calculate max spin using basic trigonometry. In fact a good spinster can count max spin just based on pure human judgement which is almost flawlessly correct in nearly all patterns. I would say that based on how salad! catches bananas it seems that the system doesn't really include a max spin calculator, but hopefully whenever the engineers find their time they can add on an undisplayed bananas counter and make some pp. I think that the CTB spinner is very unique and heavily skill/experience oriented, to have it just affect score is rather under-appreciated D:

I think the possibility of a good spin making you go from not even top 8 all the way to rank 1 is plenty enough.

Zak wrote:

I think the possibility of a good spin making you go from not even top 8 all the way to rank 1 is plenty enough.

Often on very hard songs where there are only a few NoMod scores or very easy songs with a bunch of HDHRDT scores, spinners can give you good ranking on the scoreboard, but as for the rest having good spinner has to be coupled with good mods usually if not always involving HD. Otherwise neither getting pp nor top score is very viable. E.g. A NoMod score with ridiculous spin on [Overdose] will be easily pushed off the Top 50 within like a month. DT spinner can hardly outplay or even level HD spinners. HR will bring your score far up, but however good a HR spin it will be dominated by HDHR in the end. To have a ridiculous spin just squeezed away is really unfortunate, at the least a little pp will do some good. Spinner rewards should not be greater or even close to HD rewards or any other score multiplying mods, but I still think that other than 1100 score which is tiny compared to mods, slight pp boost will make pushed-off-the-board mad spins feel more deserving of praise and appreciation.

I would like to see this topic revived, there is not dumb that this pp-sytem is just bad.

BoberOfDarkness wrote:

I would like to see this topic revived, there is not dumb that this pp-sytem is just bad.

Not much to say that wasn't said already.