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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

NOTE: Not exactly sure whether I should report this problem in this thread or start a new one(haven't really been on the forums though I've been playing Osumania! for some time). I'm neither sure whether this problem has already been reported before and solved(haven't found a thread or somewhere on the internet about this problem....).
Also: This is my first post so please don't slaugther me for my inexperience and wrongdoings(as well as poor english)?


I have more or less a problem concerning Osumania! that are actually somewhat pretty irritating...
The problem is:
Slowed note falling speed, but higher note density.
The beatmap still properly follows the song in regards to when a note should be played, but the speed at which the notes falls are significantly slower than what it is supposed to be, and in the meanwhile the notes are far closer(which is why the beatmap still properly follows the song, but goes at a slower rate..).

I found that I could fix this problem on some maps by replaying a ranked map, that goes at the proper speed, which will in turn fix the wrong speed for me.
The problem is then that this does obviously not work for maps that are not ranked..(know that they are slower cuz my brother also have the beatmap and it goes significantly faster, though with the notes spread out some more...)
you need to adjust speed through F3 or F4 in-game or ctrl + or - before starting the song. It's no bug, it's intended. :)
Ulqux
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Ulqux
Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
When you progress into harder songs it's actually easier to play at higher speeds as long as you can follow the notes since patterns gets more complex and density of notes gets tighter. :)

and yes anyone can change it as they see fit. ;)
Sibula
1 post
Joined May 2012
Sibula
I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

Allium97 wrote:

I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Actually long maps aren't necessarily giving heaps of pp; currently some of the more overrated maps, such as Koi Yomi Zakura, Utakata Ai no Mahoroba, Atropos, Poppin Shower are only around 2 minutes, and give more than they honestly should, while some long songs definitely are underrated such as fortissimo and workaholic. Larger problems are that low level 7k gives a hell of a lot less than low level 4k, vice versa for higher levels, and songs with heavy LN being underrated compared to songs with heaps of chords.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Unfortunately, trying to create a mathematical model of difficulty for mania is not exactly easy. Gotta say, I'm impressed with tom's work so far, even if it has plenty of imperfections.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
If you're not going to do anything with our suggestions maybe just close the topic and unsticky it?
Noobrage
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage
1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Noobrage wrote:

1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Map popularity and score rank achieved aren't factors in the current pp system anymore (they were factors in ppv1 only).
Noobrage
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage
That actually didnt explain why these maps give SO MUCH more PP.
They are mostly (NOT always) harder, but that aint a reason that they should give *10 as much points...
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
maps are popular because they give a lot of PP
not the other way around orz
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
After checking out Logger Pro to try and find a correlation between score/1million and PP awarded (for Aiae SHD) I couldn't find an equation, although it appears to be some sort of exponential with a y-intercept of 500,000 and an exponent of less than one.

Lol I personally would love it if the scores could automatically include how many performance points are awarded for a ranked score. It would likely give people a good indicator/inclination to play maps at or slightly above their level.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I know I thought he meant a fixed amount of pp gained from score only...
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
that would be incredibly silly

farm all [Easy] autoconverts, become top master

just like ppv1!
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Aqo wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
The accuracy percentage also influences the pp gained a bit, but the influence of it is decreased when the star difficulty of the map increases (so, at some point, the influence of it is so small score is the only things that matters).
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
I'm sort of new to mania (been playing for 40 some days, have about 2000 pp) and this is my first post, but I really quickly noticed that the ranking system for mania needed to be changed somehow. The thing that bugged me the most is that 4k-8k are weighted the same, but 4k is much easier, so in my case like many others, all of my top scores for pp are from 4k songs. I could do really good in my standards on a 7k song, but not get any pp for it because I did a little better on the 4k songs, even though they are easier. For auto-converts, most of them get low difficulty ratings anyways, and you can easily get more pp from mania charts than you could from auto-converts. IMO, I wouldn't take auto-converts out from giving you pp, because if you're good at mania, you will get more pp from the mania songs anyways. That's just my opinion though, and I don't really know how far you can go, farming standard songs. If there were more ranked mania charts than there are currently available though, I would probably be more for disabling pp for auto-converts. There are also some songs that are considered way too high in difficulty (i.e. Utakata) that give you way too many pp.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
4K is not necessarily easier than 7K except on an extremely high-level of play because 7K can be more dense than 4K, but for most players 4K focuses on speed, density and stamina whereas 7 and 8K is more about reading difficult patterns. However 4K gives way too much pp for low and mid-level play and not enough for high-level play. Higher key amounts suffer the opposite problem. That's why many players around 0 to 3000~ pp have a 4K song as their top perf whereas the other top players usually have 7K charts as top perfs. (Well there is AiAe but it IS underrated)
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
4K will feel overrated if your speed is better than your reading
7K will feel overrated if your reading is better than your speed

Just like in standard, everyone complains that whatever they're good at is overrated. People who can stream fast say that stream maps give too much pp, people who can aim well say jump maps give too much etc..
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I meant it as SR underrate 4K too much in comparison to 7 and 8K. I'm confident in saying that AiAe is equal if not harder than, say, IN2K6.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
Frustration
57 posts
Joined September 2013
Frustration

Tristan97 wrote:

I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

caiorandom wrote:

Tristan97 wrote:

I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.
sadly this does not hold true for standard
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-

Bobbias wrote:

The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
There's not very many songs that can allow for something crazy to map (at least in mania). They do exist though, but good luck finding them lol
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
pretty sure a lot of BMS stuff technically allows crazy stuff to be mapped, even without looking at how original charts are done. Some "epic musics" (heavy orchestral stuff, such as two steps from hell tracks) can make pretty damn awesome LN charts as well.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Yes, and I'm all for in people to go for it.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.

It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
Bara-
11,955 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I have a new idea for this
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
don't bother, nobody is looking here
IamBaum
322 posts
Joined August 2013
IamBaum
Well at least there have been 3 now :)
tbh i like that idea baraatje :)
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
*waves hand*
h3ndy_
2 posts
Joined November 2012
h3ndy_
Kinda sad that Mania scoring is still broken :(
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
ikzune
159 posts
Joined August 2013
ikzune
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

laishiou wrote:

my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
That was brought up and discussed 5 or 6 months ago and look at amount of stuff changed.
I don't know why this thread still exists
Anti Fun
14 posts
Joined December 2013
Anti Fun
Performance points don't fit in vsrg. It should be something like dan courses in lr2. It would be more precise and quite easy to implement
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

PyaKura wrote:

Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Doesn't matter how long o!m's been out, peppy wouldn't change it anyway. :/

Honestly, PP isn't the worst way to rank players... Imagine how dumb ranks would be if they relied on "ranked score" instead of PP (oh wait, they did years ago, and it was awful).
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Tear wrote:

Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
If pp (or rank score, or any other value used for rank) went up noticeably whether or not you did well, then lowdiff farming wouldn't be avoided (unless the scaling from difficulty increases extremely fast with difficulty, for example, the easiest map in the game gives 1 point, a mid-tier map gives 10^35 points, and a top-tier map gives 10^45 points). The purpose of the decrease of pp gain rate from plays is limiting the amount of pp obtained from playing many maps of similar difficulty without increasing the difficulty over time. If the difficulty calculation of the pp system is accurate, then players will keep getting pp as long as they increase the difficulty (or performance) of the maps they play (because of that, a good difficulty calculator for osu!mania maps is very important for making the pp system better).

Looking at beatmap leaderboards of hard maps can give you an idea of who are the best players in the game, but you can't use that method to know the skill ranking of players that aren't as good as those top players (a well designed pp system should be able to give a good idea of that).
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