When will we get to see a more thorough record of difficulties for CTB difficulties. I mean I am under the impression that there are indeed some maps that are fairly straightforward to beat that have jumps, and they do give. However at my rank the people around me seem to have similar difficulty maps in their performance lists. It seems to be a balanced system for as far as at least up to perhaps rank 1200.

I don't want to give a definitive thought about the overall balance of the system until I get around to playing maps known to have high pp nets for FCing. I have not been actively seeking out maps that are worth more pp in retrospect. I've been rolling the dice so to speak by playing maps and hoping that they are worth pp.

There are probably maps out there that are harder to FC, because of one or two patterns. There are many conversion maps with patterns like chained hypers that I still haven't grasped how to do. There are still many more that I haven't FCed merely because I don't care enough to practice the map until I FC.

Hardrock is a different story altogether. Hopefully people who are playing maps in HardRock and HardRock + Doubletime are getting a decent chunk of pp for their troubles. HardRock makes nearly all 4.75+ star (old system) maps much, much harder to complete, nevermind FCing. I have not yet grasped AR10 and I'm not sure whether I will ever grasp it. I've started practicing maps with Hidden+HardRock in which previously I would only Hidden and most maps with any form of jump or precise movement kicks my butt due to how much more precise you need to be on top of the reduced reaction time.

I'm not sure what the community thinks as I certainly do not qualify as a player with "skill" at least how most described it in the What do you consider as CTB skill thread, but I consider that a HardRock play in jumpy maps rivals and likely surpasses most conversions without mods (or just with Hidden). The exceptions being maps that I probably currently have A ranks in or haven't passed yet due to huge jumps/ chains. I feel that any map that I feel that I am capable of FCing should not be worth as much as a play that I currently cannot even come remotely close to FCing (like 95% of maps with HR above the Normal level).

I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).

TheVileOne wrote:

I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).

I think that can't be judged in some kind of ranking list. I'm #320 and didn't touch HR at ridiculously high AR until now.
I would have to guess - About #120.

It also depends what "most maps" is for you. Everything that's not AR10? Won't get you anywhere I guess.

TheVileOne wrote:

I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).

If its insanes I'd say around rank 80 at most. If its HRing mostly Hards, I'd say 200 below.

I'm trying to think of the situation rationally. I know that each mod is run separately for difficulty. I'm curious to know if there is some algorithm that would roughly estimate the extra pp a map is worth compared to its non-HardRock version. I have maps that I know are worth a ton of pp. I know I could FC this with a little practice. FCing it will give someone ~230 pp. This value is extremely excessive considering that HardRock will probably add around 30? pp to the average Hard even though I consider AR10 much harder to play reliably and learn.

Anyone who plays this map is practically getting 80 pp more than I think this should be worth if they FC it. (It should be worth around 140-150pp for a FC or at least less than most maps with any form of complexity that become AR10 with HardRock). (Edit: I have had a change of heart. This map should be worth 175-200 pp as long as most AR 10 maps with jumps are worth around the same/ greater).

If one thinks rationally. If one should get this amount for FCing this map, then any map that is harder to FC than this map should get more than 230 or this map should be worth less pp.

that map gives 230pp with hd only, which is too much imo, the left-right jumps are not hard at all (at least for me).
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.

edit: that map with dt gives tooooooooo much ... why?

seicHmsc wrote:

I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.

Yup.
For example this (which is a somewhat bad example because I'm not even close to FCing that, maybe the guys who FC'd it are gonna tell me it's as easy as heck) or this - it doesn't even appear in a single PP ranking list, but the latter's in my opinion just a bad joke in terms of difficulty - and this should be definitely rewarded regarding how many people got FC on that map.

I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty for someone that doesn't play Ctb, but it's somewhat wrong I guess.

Laharl wrote:

seicHmsc wrote:

I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.

Yup.
For example this (which is a somewhat bad example because I'm not even close to FCing that, maybe the guys who FC'd it are gonna tell me it's as easy as heck) or this - it doesn't even appear in a single PP ranking list, but the latter's in my opinion just a bad joke in terms of difficulty - and this should be definitely rewarded regarding how many people got FC on that map.

I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty for someone that doesn't play Ctb, but it's somewhat wrong I guess.

both are hard to fc, so this guy is right, where is the cookie?

I was also wondering if patterns such as this were worth anything. I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps, but I'd say they should be worth at least a few pp since it's very easy to miss on them.

Yeah, plate walks like in Emerald Sword and neu have already been mentioned.
Also,

TheVileOne wrote:

I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps

In my opinion they are much, much harder than chain jumps
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB

I can't do chain jumps, but I can sort of do this if I can get lucky.

Luna wrote:

Yeah, plate walks like in Emerald Sword and neu have already been mentioned.
Also,

TheVileOne wrote:

I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps

In my opinion they are much, much harder than chain jumps
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB

they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done

VelperK wrote:

they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done

it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls

Laharl wrote:

I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty

Hard slider patterns like the ones you mentioned are definitely underrated in CTB. Some examples: #1, #2, #3, #4
The patterns in those maps are hard in a different way, yet none of them is rewarding at all.

azul is quite hard

seicHmsc wrote:

it depends if it's on the limit, emerald sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls

fixed it for you

also proof its not hard is that NoteKuroi fc'd with DT lol

If Note FCing stuff with DT means it's not hard, then nothing is hard haha

seicHmsc wrote:

VelperK wrote:

they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done

it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls

I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.


I think the CTB community considers another pattern with this term that uses sliders.

Seph wrote:

seicHmsc wrote:

it depends if it's on the limit, emerald sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls

fixed it for you

also proof its not hard is that NoteKuroi fc'd with DT lol

seph are you high...how can you say is not hard..just because note fc'd it...That map is obviously hard even with HD only, now imagine DT

TheVileOne wrote:

I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.

SPOILER

They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?

I didn't say they were impossible. I just said that I couldn't do (hyper'd chains yet).

I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.

Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.

Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).

Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.

If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).

I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.

PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).

There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).

Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.

I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.

Tenshichan wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.

SPOILER

They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?

Those chain jumps aren't bad once you get the hang of them. When they're screen width however, or alternating widths, that's when you have difficulty.

TheVileOne wrote:

PP should also reward for effort too and it already does

haha, no. HR and DT scores on high AR maps doesn't even give anything at all atm.

As said already, DT HR scores ain't worth nothing otherwise I am pretty satisfied

GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2

shush

Sabi wrote:

GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2

I wonder when go berzerk will be removed from there

eldnl wrote:

Sabi wrote:

GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2

I wonder when go berzerk will be removed from there

Never because he would have to revamp the system, the system is based on CTB maps and back and forth jumps and AR8 for some reason, tho everything else is correct and how HD/HR and even DT is weighed the only thing he really needs to change is some maps.. idk how to calculate the formula tho, a good example is distorted love song or even kemu life game, they are worth nothing even tho they should be worth 250+ so.. the system right now is good but not perfect, good luck lol.

Might as well help out by providing patterns other than back and forth jumps that make CTB hard.

Like this one

Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?

I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540

I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.

TheVileOne wrote:

Might as well help out by providing patterns other than back and forth jumps that make CTB hard.

Like this one

SPOILER

Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?

I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540

I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.

The ride never ends...

I don't know what to think about this.

When you SS airman on halftime you got 330 pp
When you got S (no fc + the score is superior than SS halftime ) airman on none you got 170 pp
Thats the problem : none > halftime and the pp system doesn't understand this logic

why does dt gives more pp than hr?

Some examples would be cool,u know

.

DeathXHunter wrote:

Some examples would be cool,u know

any map, just take a look ...
edit: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/246789&m=2

go berzerk is the hardest map!

YERTI wrote:

go berzerk is the hardest map!

someone gets it

dt so broken https://osu.ppy.sh/b/36670?m=2#

I don't think anything is ever going to get done about it

eldnl wrote:

dt so broken https://osu.ppy.sh/b/36670?m=2#

HT is broken...

edge to edge jump is overrated.

boomngong wrote:

edge to edge jump is overrated.

Yes, but this is still a hard pattern for a lot of players. Once you can do them they seem easy, but before that they seem impossible.

DeathXHunter wrote:

Some examples would be cool,u know

ok


-Ttobas- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169748?m=2 293 PP DT Only

-Exgon- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169748?m=2 250 PP HD/HR

hmmm, I have a question for the CtB players. Do you think droplets are underrated ?

yes they are

Early in discussion we tried to make sure droplets didn't get weighted too heavily, and well.... I guess they listened a little too well.

Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.

droplets have feelings too... meanies.

No more update ppv2? Then what is this topic used for?

It's for complaining about how broken a system is when it would be better off removed entirely.

Since sliders are ignored in standard algorithm, I would assume they are ignored in this algorithm too. I don't agree with having the droplets have any serious consequence on the pp gained from a map unless that map is considered very difficult to catch a good amount of the droplets. It certainly shouldn't override combo for example. Maybe a slight adjustment to accuracy for droplet heavy maps.

It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.

If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.

Zak wrote:

Early in discussion we tried to make sure droplets didn't get weighted too heavily, and well.... I guess they listened a little too well.

Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.

I didn't post, since I didn't have anything to say. I agree with the problems you mentioned and I believe I stated that already. Jump difficulty definitely needs a fix for hyperdashes, and difficulty scaling in general is a bit weird, compared to the other modes.

The main reason you don't hear much from me, is that I am very busy with all kinds of things atm and can't really spare time for osu!. There will be some things happening starting June, but the priorities lie at finishing the ingame star-rating and then adding mod-specific highscores to stop people from losing their pp when using mods. I'll look into CtB as soon as I can.

TheVileOne wrote:

Since sliders are ignored in standard algorithm, I would assume they are ignored in this algorithm too.

Where did you take that information from? It's wrong, sliders are considered in standard, and so are droplets in CtB.

TheVileOne wrote:

I don't agree with having the droplets have any serious consequence on the pp gained from a map unless that map is considered very difficult to catch a good amount of the droplets. It certainly shouldn't override combo for example. Maybe a slight adjustment to accuracy for droplet heavy maps.

It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.

If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.

What do you mean by platewalking?

Tom94 wrote:

What do you mean by platewalking?

This is platewalking

Kingkevin30 wrote:

This is platewalking

Thanks, I know it is hard and completely underrated at the moment - but didn't know what it was called.

Tom94 wrote:

Kingkevin30 wrote:

This is platewalking

Thanks, I know it is hard and completely underrated at the moment - but didn't know what it was called.

Thanks for taking time out of your day to help out the CTB Community, I know you don't play CTB so creating a formula for PP Gain on CTB must be very tough, but platewalking is indeed hard and takes very good timing and accuracy, also you should calculate maps like Distorted Love Song and Cheshire,s Dance a lot more, getting less than 150 PP for a AR10 stream map is kind of absurd. I'm not really sure how you would create a formula to do that? so best of luck I guess, the only way I can think of is to calculate the hard parts in a map sort of like "Platewalking" Or "Back and forth jumps" Like what you did etc.


Best of luck.

Unlike osu! standard, AR is much more important in CTB. You have limited movement speed. You can't just move the catcher faster if you have a delayed reaction. Well you can, but at least for me a lot of CTB is muscle memory and if you have to adjust on the fly it gets a lot less consistent, especially at higher ARs.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

What do you mean by platewalking?

This is platewalking

why me, shame

eldnl wrote:

Kingkevin30 wrote:

This is platewalking

why me, shame

well...

Well I really like this system it lets new players join without too much pressure, and allows them to play with a sense of importance on their part. Also just so we are clear..... I'm going straight for the number 1 spot. in due time my friends. I play this more than i play Xbox one.

khdragon260 wrote:

Well I really like this system it lets new players join without too much pressure, and allows them to play with a sense of importance on their part. Also just so we are clear..... I'm going straight for the number 1 spot. in due time my friends. I play this more than i play Xbox one.

That is a sad life.

-Ryuujii- wrote:

khdragon260 wrote:

Well I really like this system it lets new players join without too much pressure, and allows them to play with a sense of importance on their part. Also just so we are clear..... I'm going straight for the number 1 spot. in due time my friends. I play this more than i play Xbox one.

That is a sad life.

Pretending other players aren't just as full of themselves? Hah. Good one.

Pretending other players aren't just as full of themselves? Hah. Good one.[/quote]

WOW that really is, a sad life, 10/10 best person whom knows all, grace me with your knowledge : 3

understand me what means that, please Kappa

-Ryuujii- wrote:

understand me what means that, please Kappa

You troll : )

khdragon260 wrote:

Well I really like this system it lets new players join without too much pressure, and allows them to play with a sense of importance on their part. Also just so we are clear..... I'm going straight for the number 1 spot. in due time my friends. I play this more than i play Xbox one.

hey it's me LOL hi twin


Just kidding.

Your going to get eaten alive, just like me if you start talking like that.

khdragon260 wrote:

Well I really like this system it lets new players join without too much pressure, and allows them to play with a sense of importance on their part. Also just so we are clear..... I'm going straight for the number 1 spot. in due time my friends. I play this more than i play Xbox one.

It's good to have ambition at any rate.

Literally free pp in this map (the Easy!)

I don't know what happens to easier songs, but it obviously overrates some of them to ridiculous amounts. The few jumps that require dashing are 1/1 at 120 BPM. These notes are spaced 500 ms which is more than enough to catch them. The fact that they are across the screen does not make them hard, because they are spaced in the timeline and it's only one part of the map that has this. It was so easy to play that I didn't want to add a third mod to it, because it would give me a ton more pp than it should be worth.



Three mods so OP.

TheVileOne wrote:

Literally free pp in this map (the Easy!)

I don't know what happens to easier songs, but it obviously overrates some of them to ridiculous amounts. The few jumps that require dashing are 1/1 at 120 BPM. These notes are spaced 500 ms which is more than enough to catch them. The fact that they are across the screen does not make them hard, because they are spaced in the timeline and it's only one part of the map that has this. It was so easy to play that I didn't want to add a third mod to it, because it would give me a ton more pp than it should be worth.



Three mods so OP.

There are many "Easy/Normal diff PP Maps"..
here are some interesting ones, maybe that will help finding out what kind of pp-base rating would be right for them.
Scooter - And No Matches {Hop!}
Caramell - Caramelldansen {Normal}
Mario Tennis 64 - Peach's Secret Court {Set Point}
Nobuo Uematsu - You're Not Alone {Normal}
Lin-G - I Want You {Normal}
2pm - Tetris {Level 3}

It's time I make a very lengthy post again.

Stats for CtB:
Spacing difficulty (Dist)
This stat is an alpha of the jump difficulties. Each note has a difficulty assigned to it based on it's placement.
Since CtB is a constantly moving game, it's not just based on the distances between each fruit, but also the leading fruit. So, each fruit has their set difficulty to get to the next fruit, with an addition of the difficulty from the previous fruit's difficulty.
Control action speed (Speed)
Speed is the amount of rigorous hand movement and coordination required to catch the fruits in addition to the BPM.
Accuracy of movement required (Acc)
This is determined by the circle size, as well as the sliders involved. Not a big stat but can be more powerful with wild sliders and sliders going beyond walking speed as well as fruits getting very small.
Approach rate difficulty (App)
Higher AR rates are more difficult in terms of difficulty and are based on the time the fruits are on screen. AR11 is 1.5x more difficult than AR10.

Mods
and how they affect the game and difficulty.

Difficulty Increase

Hidden
This mod provides less visibility. In this case, it makes it harder to be accurate with the fruits, and requires a little more timing ability. Difficult jumps become increasingly harder. This isn't too much of a difficulty increase but it's enough to be very notable in jumpy maps. Low approach rates also make this mod a tiny bit more difficult because of how much more memorization is required. It becomes only slightly less difficult with higher and approach rates.
Slight boost to:
+Acc
Good boost to:
+Dist (Depends on AR a little too)

DoubleTime
This mod provides increased beatmap speed. This also means increased approach rate, increased need of control, and increased need for jump movement. This is the more difficult modifier of the two 1.06x score increases. This can also increase little slow streams into something more difficult.
Slight boost to:
+Acc
Good boost to:
+Dist
+App
Big boost to:
+Speed

HardRock
Also popular among players for the instant ticket to AR9.8 and AR10. It makes the fruits smaller and increases the approach rate where it can be increased. It makes it more difficult to get a good accuracy as well. It also scrambles the fruits a little, so the distance difficulty should be calculated as if the map were scrambled up with HardRock.
Good boost to:
+Dist
+App (Depends on the AR, it maxes at AR10)
Big boost to:
+Acc

Flashlight
Still the most powerful of the 1.12x score mods, is Flashlight. It provides limited visibility, including difficulty in seeing large jumps and getting good accuracy. It makes approach shorter because of the limited visibility above, as well.
Good boost to:
+Acc
Big boost to:
+App
+Dist

Difficulty Decrease

NoFail
his mod does nothing except prevent you from failing. No stat change whatsoever.

Easy
This modifier tones down the stats of the map, but not the notes. this includes reduced difficulty on needing to aim at jumps, the accuracy involved, and the approach rate. When joined with hidden, this increases the difficulty of aiming a little when AR is very low.
Slight decrease to:
-Dist (Except when AR gets low when used with hidden)
Good decrease to:
-Acc
Big decrease to:
-App

HalfTime
also a powerful difficulty reduction mod in it's own speculation. It reducdes speed as well as the approach rate and hit aim requirement a little, being the exact opposite of DoubleTime.
Slight decrease to:
-Acc
Good decrease to:
-Dist
-App
Big decrease to:
-Speed

I hope this helps you. In a lot of cases, you can't just use a % change for maps when using mods. It just doesn't work, with how diverse maps are.

I also think that my definition on jump distance here might rectify the "Long jumps being uber powerful" thing. In some cases they are though (Like Wild eyes and Go Berzerk, they have those jumps all over)

I'm losing rank because of improving songs? K den

i just noticed.. some mod combinations are haaarshly underrated, i mean the amount of pp from this "easy" HR+HD record is really way to high in comparison to the other Mod combinations

I don't really care about the ranking system to begin with. In my opinion, growth is never AS accurate or weighed properly by scripts and whatever is used in creating a natural ranking system. But, that's just me. As for the community, I wouldn't mind a little revamping and work did on the ranking system. I think it could be a bit more redefined and more user-friendly.

Is there any way to hide/remove scores? Honestly, i got a new top rank that is even more broken than the old one from Still Alive, who'd have guessed that this is even possible? I dont want those PPs, i dont deseve them.


Its a 6.13 star map that plays like some 4 star map, i was able to FC it with ease. Could HR it too but id rather not...

Anyways, i theres some correlation with Still alive, high circle size and 1/4 closs screen jumps.

Most people are aware of maps like the giving extreme amounts of pp, it hasn't been fixed yet, and I doubt it will be any time soon.

rip

After easy map giving tons of pp there are hard map giving nothing. I love ppv2.

VOTE for go berzerk best map 2014!..wait

So when nurf patch pp amount of HT?

When Will FL get nurfed?

-PM- wrote:

So when nurf patch pp amount of HT?

Yukiteru Amano wrote:

When Will FL get nurfed?

Never

Zak wrote:

-PM- wrote:

So when nurf patch pp amount of HT?

Yukiteru Amano wrote:

When Will FL get nurfed?

Never

I see nothing wrong with FL. It's a very difficult mod and totally worth the performance if you pull it off (and the points too)

As for HT, there's going to be a speed factor implemented for CtB pp so you might see that getting calculated much like it does with doubletime.

Full mode SS gives less PP than HD HR FL. (Not weighet pp)
Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/94942?m=2
Screenshot: http://puu.sh/bZjRa/f54033b86e.jpg
#1 got 240
I got 255

follon wrote:

Full mode SS gives less PP than HD HR FL. (Not weighet pp)
Map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/94942?m=2
Screenshot: http://puu.sh/bZjRa/f54033b86e.jpg
#1 got 240
I got 255

wow...that is really dumb xD, i just checked to with Osu!Trainer, you're right..

Yukiteru Amano wrote:

When Will FL get nurfed?

PLS yuki, FL on ar8+ needs to be boosted imo, there are less FL players now than like 4 years ago makes me sad. Also I think EZ+FL should be worth 1.00x at the least hue

imo
1. you people do realize yuki's reply about fl is just a sarcasm to the previous post right?
2. there are reasons why there are less fl player nowadays and that is not just because it gives less of this bullshit points
3. this bullshit points already have tons of proof that it is broken and even (much) worse than the previous one, at least for now
4. i don't think it would be that simple to fix all of those crap anytime soon, especially when tom seems pretty much busy with other stuffs as well
5. if you want this to get resolved quickly, try playing any maps you like and enjoy this game mode the way it is or go away/play other games... pretty much the best solution

- Rii - wrote:

imo
1. you people do realize yuki's reply about fl is just a sarcasm to the previous post right?
2. there are reasons why there are less fl player nowadays and that is not just because it gives less of this bullshit points
3. this bullshit points already have tons of proof that it is broken and even (much) worse than the previous one, at least for now
4. i don't think it would be that simple to fix all of those crap anytime soon, especially when tom seems pretty much busy with other stuffs as well
5. if you want this to get resolved quickly, try playing any maps you like and enjoy this game mode the way it is or go away/play other games... pretty much the best solution

Nuh-uh, playing other games won't have any effect to this.

alxnr wrote:

Nuh-uh, playing other games won't have any effect to this.

so you think by saying that will give any effect to this?

- Rii - wrote:

so you think by saying that will give any effect to this?

Of course... not.

Going to be honest and say there's probably not much more to discuss here until Tom comes back to work on CtB's pp system and rework it as we've covered almost everything that can be right now. So it's probably best to let it sit here instead of arguing until then.

Or just remove pp, that works too.

Agree.

Sorry, couldn't resist that. I hope Tom gets back into this soon.

hi

I don't really know about pp ranking system in CtB. But, different mode, different difficulty. Example, AR9HDDT is more difficult than AR9HDHR, and for some map with many jumps (and because that the pp's map is overhigh) I think it's a part of CtB difficulty. CtB difficulty not only HyperJumps, but Mod, AR, CS, rapid stream, weird pattern, etc are must be considered to pp's map, not just jumps. That's my opinion.

And for me, with pp ranking (although it's broken), It's motivated me to improve my skill. So, I disagree with no-pp system ranking.

But keep play and enjoy the game, the music, and the map.

uhhhhhh the change is slowly comming *.* (thats a screen of the changelog of the cutting edge version)

I play at least Hard difficulty and Hidden never turn off. Over the past few days received 2 PP. Where are my PP, developers?

P.S. Oh, and I lost about 200 places these days.

You are not entitled to pp because you play Hard diff's with Hidden. If it bothers you that much player harder maps.

Zak wrote:

You are not entitled to pp because you play Hard diff's with Hidden. If it bothers you that much player harder maps.

Hard - is the minimum. Often Insane or something like that. I get into the top 50 on the highest difficulty. Let the map is not the most difficult in the game, but its better than I have been only 20-40 people. Do not people deserve some PP? It is illogical and unfair. In the good old days was only Ranked Score, fair and clear.

[ZooM] wrote:

Zak wrote:

You are not entitled to pp because you play Hard diff's with Hidden. If it bothers you that much player harder maps.

Hard - is the minimum. Often Insane or something like that. I get into the top 50 on the highest difficulty. Let the map is not the most difficult in the game, but its better than I have been only 20-40 people. Do not people deserve some PP? It is illogical and unfair. In the good old days was only Ranked Score, fair and clear.

dude, values have changed in the past years, you were there in the begging..thats true but you just visited the game every few months, people were unhappy that score ranking was about time effort and strategysing about score farming, then ppv1 came and people found maps that fell out of the system because of the number of scores on a map, or people always having the exact same high rank because of 0-Spinner SS's and many more weird situations...
and people were and maybe are to some extend unhappy with how ppv2 works, but you shouldn't critize it, it only does the thing that the major part of the community wanted..giving a ranking were your skill is the most important value. in ppv2 you have to play a combination of high distance,high AR,High CS-Combination to get the most out of a map...and peppy made it even easier, now you can just look up how many pp someone got for a map..if the record you're looking for is not in the top100 Best perfomance of a player then it's below his lowest value...so if you really care about having a high rank then put the effort into getting those points, and if you don't want to..thats also fine, everyone just wants to enjoy this game in his/her own ways, but don't call bullshit on people who are actually putting an effort into pleasing their community members.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

dude, values have changed in the past years, you were there in the begging..thats true but you just visited the game every few months, people were unhappy that score ranking was about time effort and strategysing about score farming, then ppv1 came and people found maps that fell out of the system because of the number of scores on a map, or people always having the exact high rank because of 0-Spinner SS's and many more weird situations...
and people were and maybe are to some extend unhappy with how ppv2 works, but you shouldn't critize it, it only does the thing that the major part of the community wanted..giving a ranking were your skill is the most important value. in ppv2 you have to play a combination of high distance,high AR,High CS-Combination to get the most out of a map...and peppy made it even easier, now you can just look up how many pp someone got for a map..if the record you're looking for is not in the top100 Best perfomance of a player then it's below his lowest value...so if you really care about having a high rank then put the effort into getting those points, and if don't want to thats also fine, everyone just wants to enjoy this game in his/her own ways, but don't call bullshit on people who are actually putting an effort into pleasing their community members.

I understand, but this is the case - a person gets 1st place on the map and get, for example, 100 PP. And all the rest get nothing. But their score may be less likely to 5000-10000. Okay, insane with Hidden is simply because even if only for 5-10 PP give. I did not ask to get me in the top 3. Just want some return for the hours spent in the game.

This imbalance. I think that is wrong.

You want something in return? What do you gain from some number?
You gain a good map rank in return, isnt that good enough? And thats just a number. Again.

Honestly i never saw what people see in all those numbers, is it admiration from less good players they're after? But you can get that by FCing the newest ultrahard map much better than from some number.

You don't get pp by getting a high rank, most of the time a map I get rank 1 on doesn't give anything, and you want to know why? Because the map isn't hard enough to give anything, ppv1 based your pp on rank/accuracy, ppv2 takes map difficulty and counts miss count+combo.

So again, if you're not getting anything, you need to FC harder maps, you can't get pp forever by sticking to the same difficulty range, you do eventually have to move on to harder and harder maps.