Agreed.TenguKing9 wrote:
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
forum
Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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Seph
if you can't sense my grammar in the sentence of what I said, and my sarcasm then you are really foreign.Seph wrote:
haSabi wrote:
go berzerk is hardest song
hahaha
ahahahahahaha
just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp.
"just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp."
The ranking system is corrupt, how you may ask? I just jumped 100 ranks in 1 day by playing bullshit easy ctb maps. See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Seph
inb4 noSabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Please guys stay in the topic witout the troll/taunt/flame things... You're just making the things harder to fix for Tom.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
then why are you posting heresalamat wrote:
When ppv2 was in progress, I thought I couldn't live without PP... now I feel it shouldn't belong anymore.
That being said, I know how hard it is to establish and maintain a fair system, that why I'm not doing anything about it.
Had a long talk with a wize korean, he told me that I shouldn't be mad, and I thought about it for awhile and I realize that I can't be friends with everyone and some people are just scumbags towards you, so to be honest, sorry for bringing my problems and my anger in the forums and not to better the pp system, I am truly sorry.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
From what I've noticed after getting to rank 99 from 310 was. Droplets mean nothing and spinners mean nothing, and you don't even have to fully FC a map. Trust me, I did over 40-60 CtB maps and other maps yesterday. A strong example is this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/159792?m=2 I didn't FC it, but I lost 10 pp normally if I did FC it, I think I got trolled and droped near the end or something. but look at my pp gain from (mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2427813) to (Yukiteru Amano: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1894511).Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
PS: S vs SS is 1 PP.
Topic Starter
The "weighting" doesn't have anything to do with consistency. Only by how far up the score is in your best performance list. It's simply there to ensure you can't keep getting pp for equally good scores.Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
Just bumping in to make some statements 
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)o
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)oi have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
Seph
I'm guessing pp calculation for HR plays aren't weighted that much yet? I have some AR9 HDHR plays and they don't give that much. And waiting for the airman fix x3 that would give me some more pp if it doeslineqtxz wrote:
i have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it
wait...
im not :O
wait...
im not :O
VelperK wrote:
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it
wait...
im not :O
you're just unhappy because you cant beat exgon
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
sigh
What for?-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
I can make you the best pp wiki:-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
Check users with less than 20 ranks above you's best performance and so on until you get #1 world PP.
Laharl wrote:
What for?-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
im not sure if it actually works out that way in the formula (i dont know the entire formula nor how it works) but it seems that way based on a lot of top players top performances (if i dont count the HD HR DT maps for obvious reasons)
edit: fixed HD to HR, letters op
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
HD DT is easier than ar7/8 HD indeedZak wrote:
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
But it depends by the map of course.
Zak wrote:
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
kinda hard for me to think of an example when im a no mod player :v, also i meant "hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT" as in HD mod is giving more pp than HR or DT (not HR+DT, that would be broken)
You have absolutely nothing to actually support your theory though, you need to provide some examples where HD is giving more pp than DT/HR
Topic Starter
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
that explains that :v (also by your definition, what is crazy high and crazy low ar? 9 and up high and 6 or below is low?
Haron_old_1
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1451372 0 pp, but it's really hard ):
Easier map with HR gave me 16 pp.
Easier map with HR gave me 16 pp.
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
I think it would be better to revamp the scoring system and base it on the pp system when this one is "finished". But this isn't for now I guess...TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.
I.. have failed you Natalia Poklonskaya ;; l0l just kidding atleast I got to 68 2 days before my internet was shut off *had to switch cuz comcast did the ol' let's put 300 dollars on your bill for no reason at all* I tried D;VelperK wrote:
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
As I saidSabi wrote:
I.. have failed you Natalia Poklonskaya ;; l0l just kidding atleast I got to 68 2 days before my internet was shut off *had to switch cuz comcast did the ol' let's put 300 dollars on your bill for no reason at all* I tried D;VelperK wrote:
no
Topic Starter
It certainly would be ultra cool to have mod-specific highscores. Right now it can't be done, though. Let's see what the future brings.TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
Star rating in general is way too high for everything in CtB.
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
As I said68 was close enough~ and besides, I ranked and did over 80 maps, give sabi a break >_>
no
Yep, pretty much.Luna wrote:
Star rating in general is way too high for everything in CtB.
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
It does know how to put them at a proper order, but it overrates them like crazy.
AR10 and AR9+DT should give a lot more pp,
what do i mean? look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130826 Gabriela Vega y Maggie Vera - La Eterna Luz (TV Size)
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC, while a song that I've played with HR are not that high rewarded as this, example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91215?m=2
If you ask me which one is harder, obviously is power of dream by a lot (still is not that hard to fc), same happens on the AR9DT stuff, I have this one https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2 I don't know how many pp it gives because I didn't find it.
So here is a problem I guess, the hardest map is "basara", which gives the less pp, and the easier one is "la eterna luz", which give the most.
Not sure if you understand x__x
what do i mean? look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130826 Gabriela Vega y Maggie Vera - La Eterna Luz (TV Size)
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC, while a song that I've played with HR are not that high rewarded as this, example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91215?m=2
If you ask me which one is harder, obviously is power of dream by a lot (still is not that hard to fc), same happens on the AR9DT stuff, I have this one https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2 I don't know how many pp it gives because I didn't find it.
So here is a problem I guess, the hardest map is "basara", which gives the less pp, and the easier one is "la eterna luz", which give the most.
Not sure if you understand x__x
I thought it's already well-known that the PP rewards of CtB-specific maps are ridiculously high compared to the ones of converted maps which may be sometimes way more challenging.seicHmsc wrote:
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC [...]
It's mostly based on how many long jumps the map has, so something with lots of them that is still not too difficult to FC (which is mostly ctb specifics) will give a lot more pp than lots of the hard maps which don't have that many.
There is no difference on the pp calculation between an specific and a converted difficulty, Zak is right, so the algorithm needs to be fixed.Laharl wrote:
I thought it's already well-known that the PP rewards of CtB-specific maps are ridiculously high compared to the ones of converted maps which may be sometimes way more challenging.seicHmsc wrote:
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC [...]
When will we get to see a more thorough record of difficulties for CTB difficulties. I mean I am under the impression that there are indeed some maps that are fairly straightforward to beat that have jumps, and they do give. However at my rank the people around me seem to have similar difficulty maps in their performance lists. It seems to be a balanced system for as far as at least up to perhaps rank 1200.
I don't want to give a definitive thought about the overall balance of the system until I get around to playing maps known to have high pp nets for FCing. I have not been actively seeking out maps that are worth more pp in retrospect. I've been rolling the dice so to speak by playing maps and hoping that they are worth pp.
There are probably maps out there that are harder to FC, because of one or two patterns. There are many conversion maps with patterns like chained hypers that I still haven't grasped how to do. There are still many more that I haven't FCed merely because I don't care enough to practice the map until I FC.
Hardrock is a different story altogether. Hopefully people who are playing maps in HardRock and HardRock + Doubletime are getting a decent chunk of pp for their troubles. HardRock makes nearly all 4.75+ star (old system) maps much, much harder to complete, nevermind FCing. I have not yet grasped AR10 and I'm not sure whether I will ever grasp it. I've started practicing maps with Hidden+HardRock in which previously I would only Hidden and most maps with any form of jump or precise movement kicks my butt due to how much more precise you need to be on top of the reduced reaction time.
I'm not sure what the community thinks as I certainly do not qualify as a player with "skill" at least how most described it in the What do you consider as CTB skill thread, but I consider that a HardRock play in jumpy maps rivals and likely surpasses most conversions without mods (or just with Hidden). The exceptions being maps that I probably currently have A ranks in or haven't passed yet due to huge jumps/ chains. I feel that any map that I feel that I am capable of FCing should not be worth as much as a play that I currently cannot even come remotely close to FCing (like 95% of maps with HR above the Normal level).
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I don't want to give a definitive thought about the overall balance of the system until I get around to playing maps known to have high pp nets for FCing. I have not been actively seeking out maps that are worth more pp in retrospect. I've been rolling the dice so to speak by playing maps and hoping that they are worth pp.
There are probably maps out there that are harder to FC, because of one or two patterns. There are many conversion maps with patterns like chained hypers that I still haven't grasped how to do. There are still many more that I haven't FCed merely because I don't care enough to practice the map until I FC.
Hardrock is a different story altogether. Hopefully people who are playing maps in HardRock and HardRock + Doubletime are getting a decent chunk of pp for their troubles. HardRock makes nearly all 4.75+ star (old system) maps much, much harder to complete, nevermind FCing. I have not yet grasped AR10 and I'm not sure whether I will ever grasp it. I've started practicing maps with Hidden+HardRock in which previously I would only Hidden and most maps with any form of jump or precise movement kicks my butt due to how much more precise you need to be on top of the reduced reaction time.
I'm not sure what the community thinks as I certainly do not qualify as a player with "skill" at least how most described it in the What do you consider as CTB skill thread, but I consider that a HardRock play in jumpy maps rivals and likely surpasses most conversions without mods (or just with Hidden). The exceptions being maps that I probably currently have A ranks in or haven't passed yet due to huge jumps/ chains. I feel that any map that I feel that I am capable of FCing should not be worth as much as a play that I currently cannot even come remotely close to FCing (like 95% of maps with HR above the Normal level).
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I think that can't be judged in some kind of ranking list. I'm #320 and didn't touch HR at ridiculously high AR until now.TheVileOne wrote:
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I would have to guess - About #120.
It also depends what "most maps" is for you. Everything that's not AR10? Won't get you anywhere I guess.
Seph
If its insanes I'd say around rank 80 at most. If its HRing mostly Hards, I'd say 200 below.TheVileOne wrote:
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I'm trying to think of the situation rationally. I know that each mod is run separately for difficulty. I'm curious to know if there is some algorithm that would roughly estimate the extra pp a map is worth compared to its non-HardRock version. I have maps that I know are worth a ton of pp. I know I could FC this with a little practice. FCing it will give someone ~230 pp. This value is extremely excessive considering that HardRock will probably add around 30? pp to the average Hard even though I consider AR10 much harder to play reliably and learn.
Anyone who plays this map is practically getting80 pp more than I think this should be worth if they FC it. (It should be worth around 140-150pp for a FC or at least less than most maps with any form of complexity that become AR10 with HardRock). (Edit: I have had a change of heart. This map should be worth 175-200 pp as long as most AR 10 maps with jumps are worth around the same/ greater).
If one thinks rationally. If one should get this amount for FCing this map, then any map that is harder to FC than this map should get more than 230 or this map should be worth less pp.
Anyone who plays this map is practically getting
If one thinks rationally. If one should get this amount for FCing this map, then any map that is harder to FC than this map should get more than 230 or this map should be worth less pp.
that map gives 230pp with hd only, which is too much imo, the left-right jumps are not hard at all (at least for me).
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
edit: that map with dt gives tooooooooo much ... why?
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
edit: that map with dt gives tooooooooo much ... why?
Yup.seicHmsc wrote:
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
For example this (which is a somewhat bad example because I'm not even close to FCing that, maybe the guys who FC'd it are gonna tell me it's as easy as heck) or this - it doesn't even appear in a single PP ranking list, but the latter's in my opinion just a bad joke in terms of difficulty - and this should be definitely rewarded regarding how many people got FC on that map.
I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty for someone that doesn't play Ctb, but it's somewhat wrong I guess.
both are hard to fc, so this guy is right, where is the cookie?Laharl wrote:
Yup.seicHmsc wrote:
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
For example this (which is a somewhat bad example because I'm not even close to FCing that, maybe the guys who FC'd it are gonna tell me it's as easy as heck) or this - it doesn't even appear in a single PP ranking list, but the latter's in my opinion just a bad joke in terms of difficulty - and this should be definitely rewarded regarding how many people got FC on that map.
I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty for someone that doesn't play Ctb, but it's somewhat wrong I guess.
I was also wondering if patterns such as this were worth anything. I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps, but I'd say they should be worth at least a few pp since it's very easy to miss on them.
Yeah, plate walks like in Emerald Sword and neu have already been mentioned.
Also,
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB
Also,
In my opinion they are much, much harder than chain jumpsTheVileOne wrote:
I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB
I can't do chain jumps, but I can sort of do this if I can get lucky.
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them doneLuna wrote:
Yeah, plate walks like in Emerald Sword and neu have already been mentioned.
Also,In my opinion they are much, much harder than chain jumpsTheVileOne wrote:
I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB
it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps plsVelperK wrote:
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done
Hard slider patterns like the ones you mentioned are definitely underrated in CTB. Some examples: #1, #2, #3, #4Laharl wrote:
I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty
The patterns in those maps are hard in a different way, yet none of them is rewarding at all.
azul is quite hard
Seph
If Note FCing stuff with DT means it's not hard, then nothing is hard haha
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.seicHmsc wrote:
it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps plsVelperK wrote:
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done
I think the CTB community considers another pattern with this term that uses sliders.
seph are you high...how can you say is not hard..just because note fc'd it...That map is obviously hard even with HD only, now imagine DTSeph wrote:
fixed it for youseicHmsc wrote:
it depends if it's on the limit, emerald sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls
also proof its not hard is that NoteKuroi fc'd with DT lol
They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.TheVileOne wrote:
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?
I didn't say they were impossible. I just said that I couldn't do (hyper'd chains yet).
I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.
Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.
Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).
Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.
If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).
I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.
PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).
There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).
Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.
I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.
I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.
Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.
Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).
Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.
If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).
I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.
PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).
There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).
Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.
I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.
Those chain jumps aren't bad once you get the hang of them. When they're screen width however, or alternating widths, that's when you have difficulty.Tenshichan wrote:
They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.TheVileOne wrote:
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?
Seph
As said already, DT HR scores ain't worth nothing otherwise I am pretty satisfied
GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2
I wonder when go berzerk will be removed from thereSabi wrote:
GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2
Never because he would have to revamp the system, the system is based on CTB maps and back and forth jumps and AR8 for some reason, tho everything else is correct and how HD/HR and even DT is weighed the only thing he really needs to change is some maps.. idk how to calculate the formula tho, a good example is distorted love song or even kemu life game, they are worth nothing even tho they should be worth 250+ so.. the system right now is good but not perfect, good luck lol.eldnl wrote:
I wonder when go berzerk will be removed from thereSabi wrote:
GO BERZERK IS THE HARDEST MAP... 2 RETIRES TOP PP.. YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH PPV2
Might as well help out by providing patterns other than back and forth jumps that make CTB hard.
Like this one
Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?
I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540
I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.
Like this one
Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?
I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540
I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.
The ride never ends...TheVileOne wrote:
Might as well help out by providing patterns other than back and forth jumps that make CTB hard.
Like this one
Why is https://osu.ppy.sh/b/66246?m=2 worth the same amount of pp as https://osu.ppy.sh/s/29691 ?
I think it's another example of large but easy jumps awarding too much. Plus the pace of With a Dance Number is faster. You have hard jumps and you need to be constantly dashing to keep pace. This makes it more likely to miss a fruit. You can basically take your time in the Basshunter map. Even if the jumps are larger, you have more time to prepare for them. There are much more places to break combo in With a Dance Number.
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/47540
I think Impossible on this is either underrated (only worth 145 pp for FC) or I just have seen maps that are overrated that are worth more. This is why chain jumps should be considered more difficult than each jump considered individually.
When you SS airman on halftime you got 330 pp
When you got S (no fc + the score is superior than SS halftime ) airman on none you got 170 pp
Thats the problem : none > halftime and the pp system doesn't understand this logic
When you got S (no fc + the score is superior than SS halftime ) airman on none you got 170 pp
Thats the problem : none > halftime and the pp system doesn't understand this logic
why does dt gives more pp than hr?
any map, just take a look ...DeathXHunter wrote:
Some examples would be cool,u know
edit: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/246789&m=2
dt so broken https://osu.ppy.sh/b/36670?m=2#
HT is broken...eldnl wrote:
dt so broken https://osu.ppy.sh/b/36670?m=2#
Yes, but this is still a hard pattern for a lot of players. Once you can do them they seem easy, but before that they seem impossible.boomngong wrote:
edge to edge jump is overrated.
okDeathXHunter wrote:
Some examples would be cool,u know
-Ttobas- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169748?m=2 293 PP DT Only
-Exgon- https://osu.ppy.sh/b/169748?m=2 250 PP HD/HR
hmmm, I have a question for the CtB players. Do you think droplets are underrated ?
yes they are
Early in discussion we tried to make sure droplets didn't get weighted too heavily, and well.... I guess they listened a little too well.
Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.
Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.
It's for complaining about how broken a system is when it would be better off removed entirely.
Since sliders are ignored in standard algorithm, I would assume they are ignored in this algorithm too. I don't agree with having the droplets have any serious consequence on the pp gained from a map unless that map is considered very difficult to catch a good amount of the droplets. It certainly shouldn't override combo for example. Maybe a slight adjustment to accuracy for droplet heavy maps.
It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.
If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.
It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.
If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.
Topic Starter
I didn't post, since I didn't have anything to say. I agree with the problems you mentioned and I believe I stated that already. Jump difficulty definitely needs a fix for hyperdashes, and difficulty scaling in general is a bit weird, compared to the other modes.Zak wrote:
Early in discussion we tried to make sure droplets didn't get weighted too heavily, and well.... I guess they listened a little too well.
Either way I don't think pp is getting any more fixes as Tom hasn't made a single post in here since March.
The main reason you don't hear much from me, is that I am very busy with all kinds of things atm and can't really spare time for osu!. There will be some things happening starting June, but the priorities lie at finishing the ingame star-rating and then adding mod-specific highscores to stop people from losing their pp when using mods. I'll look into CtB as soon as I can.
Where did you take that information from? It's wrong, sliders are considered in standard, and so are droplets in CtB.TheVileOne wrote:
Since sliders are ignored in standard algorithm, I would assume they are ignored in this algorithm too.
What do you mean by platewalking?TheVileOne wrote:
I don't agree with having the droplets have any serious consequence on the pp gained from a map unless that map is considered very difficult to catch a good amount of the droplets. It certainly shouldn't override combo for example. Maybe a slight adjustment to accuracy for droplet heavy maps.
It would be hard to calculate how hard a map is to catch all the droplets. The algorithm would be similar in complexity as the one required to accuracy define the difficulty that sliders provide in standard.
If this is added, I expect plate walking to affect the difficulty rating as well. Catching all the droplets and platewalking require similar skills.
Tom94 wrote:
What do you mean by platewalking?
This is platewalking
Topic Starter
Thanks, I know it is hard and completely underrated at the moment - but didn't know what it was called.Kingkevin30 wrote:
This is platewalking
Thanks for taking time out of your day to help out the CTB Community, I know you don't play CTB so creating a formula for PP Gain on CTB must be very tough, but platewalking is indeed hard and takes very good timing and accuracy, also you should calculate maps like Distorted Love Song and Cheshire,s Dance a lot more, getting less than 150 PP for a AR10 stream map is kind of absurd. I'm not really sure how you would create a formula to do that? so best of luck I guess, the only way I can think of is to calculate the hard parts in a map sort of like "Platewalking" Or "Back and forth jumps" Like what you did etc.Tom94 wrote:
Thanks, I know it is hard and completely underrated at the moment - but didn't know what it was called.Kingkevin30 wrote:
This is platewalking
Best of luck.
Unlike osu! standard, AR is much more important in CTB. You have limited movement speed. You can't just move the catcher faster if you have a delayed reaction. Well you can, but at least for me a lot of CTB is muscle memory and if you have to adjust on the fly it gets a lot less consistent, especially at higher ARs.